Million Dollar Baby

[homosapiens]

Oh, man, I can't believe I waited this long to see this movie. I'm not a big fan of sport movies, so I've been putting this off. Boy oh boy, it blew me away.

Of course, I'm a little sad now, but I'm still glad I saw it. :p

[Salazkin]

No argument here.

[TwoBitHack]

This was originally intended as a vehicle for Bugs Bunny and Porky Pig.

[MacG]

Once again, I fail to see the justification for the hype surrounding this movie. It certainly was NOT the best movie of 2004...Hilary Swank certainly did NOT give the best performance of the year.

Pretty standard sport movie-cliche stuff. (Yes, only until the final act. Whoop-dee-doo. Boy, did that really come out of nowhere....)

This was truly just an OK movie. Without the pedigree of Clint, Morgan, and Hilary, it would be right at home as a MOW.

Disappointing.

[homosapiens]

I was hooked pretty early on. I think it's the fact that I can sense the character's desperation to get their one "shot" in life that really touched me.

PS The movie's ability to get me to despise the mother in just a few scenes should be applauded. lol

[MacG]

Credit editor Joel Cox for the excellent pacing of the 132 minute running time. It did "flow" well, I'll grant you that.

P.S. There's nothing to applaud re: the mother. When a character is written that overtly, the audience has no choice but to immediately react unfavorably. That was as as forced and one-dimensional as White Trash comes on screen....

[Writer1]

I thought it was good...but NOT great.

[Hairy Lime]

Like A Beautiful Mind, this film crosses from compelling drama to overtly emotionally manipulative. And I despised it for it. And I love Clint.

[Pencey]

That was as as forced and one-dimensional as White Trash comes on screen....

I like that...belongs in someone's sig line. :cool:

True, we have no choice not only to hate the mother but the entire family. So yes, that whole thing felt forced.

I liked the movie but I think what people are in love with was the twist. You take out the twist and all you have is standard fare.

[TwoBitHack]

And the twist is staged in such a cartoonish manner that the film loses all credibility.

[Bad Liver]

I love that people are finally stepping forward and saying that this movie didn't "grab onto their soul and not let go" as the incessant advertising campaign promised it would. It was a good, solid movie, but over hyped to the point of absurdity.


Besides, who wants something grabbing onto their soul and not letting go. It sounds painful!

[TheKeenGuy]

I agree. Sure, good movie, but not better than dozens of other movies last year. Except that it won Best Picture, there's no more reason to see Million Dollar Baby than there is to see Hotel Rwanda or Kinsey or The Corporation.

[greyghost]

*****SPOILERS*******

I simply could not believe her mother and other relatives would come to L.A. to visit the paralyzed woman but go to Disneyland and "see the other sights" for a few days, FIRST!

The over-all behavior of her relatives was so unnatural as to be unbelievable.
Even people on welfare have some feelings for their flesh and blood.

An overrated film.

[Pencey]

*****SPOILERS*******

I simply could not believe her mother and other relatives would come to L.A. to visit the paralyzed woman but go to Disneyland and "see the other sights" for a few days, FIRST!

The over-all behavior of her relatives was so unnatural as to be unbelievable.
Even people on welfare have some feelings for their flesh and blood.

An overrated film.

I wish the writer would've given us some backstory on why the mother especially, hated her own daughter. All we know is that she thinks it's a disgrace for her daughter to become a boxer.

So lemme get this straight...this fat, poor white trash is apalled that her daughter isn't a true lady like herself and then ungrateful when her daughter buys her a home so she can move out of her trailer park. Um...yeah.

[AnconRanger]

i thought it was a terrible movie.

[jkk808]

I liked it.

[AnconRanger]

what did you like? just curious.

[Hairy Lime]

I liked it.This from the guy who liked that Pants movie.

[Salazkin]

The naysayers are clearly the majority in THIS thread. But, by now, who would want to chime in on liking it, knowing that a good lambasting awaits them?

It was an exceptionally moving film, IMO, and the few quibbles over plausibility were extremely minor and easily forgiven. Okay, you don't buy into her family. I did. Why? Because I've lived long enough to have encountered a fair share of people who are as crass and insensitive as her family in that film. Were they exaggerrated a wee bit? Maybe. But that's where I, personally, permit artistic license in the interest of presenting a compelling story.

The issue of artistic license is an interesting one, because I find there's a delicate balance in how far one can take it. There seems to be a threshold at which the artistic license which we will willingly grant crosses over into perceived manipulation. And when we feel manipulated, we naturally bristle and respond with anger. In turn, we "hate" the movie. So the writer and director walk the tightrope in presenting compelling material without exceeding the limits of plausibility/manipulation and thereby alienating the audience. Bottom line is: MDB worked for me. I thought it nailed it perfectly. Obviously, many of you disagree. The public at large seems to have agreed.

Of the films I saw in 2004, it was easily the best.

Now return to your regularly-scheduled bashing.

[Hairy Lime]

Sal. You've expounded on something I talk about pretty often. That fine line between drama and manipulation. I think many writers are overly sensitive to ham-fisted emotional manipulation, because they're looking for it. Movie audiences, on the other hand, don't necessarily know the tricks of storytelling and may not even realize they're being led by the nose to a heartbreaking moment. When it is as brazen as in M$B or A Beautiful Mind, I recoil in frustration. However, when I see drama play out like American Beauty or Ordinary People, I applaud.

[Salazkin]

I agree wholeheartedly that American Beauty and Ordinary People are superior films to MDB. They are far more organic in the telling and much the better for it. Regrettably, that caliber of film is few and far between.

[dgrunert]

Hairy, you are eloquent as always. I respect your views, even if I don't always agree with them. I think all movies are manipulative -- some are just better at it than others. One could argue that American Beauty is as manipulative as they come.

I, for one, loved M$B for its simplicity, its beauty and it's outstanding performances -- sure, Swank and Freeman were great, but I thought Eastwood gave the performance of his career.

[TwoBitHack]

Worst Oscar decision since Marisa Tomei for MY COUSIN VINNY.

[jkk808]

Marissa Tomei was brilliant in My Cousin Vinny and more great comedic performances should be recognized by the Academy.

Hairy - While M$B was no sisterhood of the traveling pants, it was a very good movie in it's own right.

I didn't find it overly manipulative. I thought that the characters were well drawn and the story, to me at least, was compelling and felt truthful.

Now for an example of Haggis at his most manipulative, I'd say look to Crash.

[MacG]

My Mom is suffering through M$B as I write this...I can hear the dialogue in the background and it causes me to remember the scenes; as such, I'd like to revise my opinion of the film: it really stinks.

Manipulative and heavy-handed through and through. No subtlety at all. I challenge someone to counter with an example....

[Bad Liver]

Crash did indeed have its manipulative moments, but the sequence with the store owner coming after the locksmith was more inventive and rewarding than the entirity of Million Dollar Baby, IMO.

If Crash had lost the Matt Dillon hero sequence it would have lost about 75% of its "manipulative" factor. That scene really poured it on thick.

Mind you, I don't hate or even dislike "Baby." I just think it was over-rated.

[Biohazard]

Since when are movies not supposed to manipulate the audience? Hitchcock did it all the time.

[Hairy Lime]

Manipulate the audience without letting them know you're manipulating them. Hitchcock did that all the time.

[TwoBitHack]

And just how absurd and over the top is that spastic British boxer?

[miles]

I guess I'll chime in. When MDB started, the voice-over just distracted me. I love Morgan Freeman, though. And as the movie went on, I was thinking "this is the movie that's supposed to be awesome?" I liked Eastwood's Forgiven and somewhat liked Mystic River, even though it becomes tedious at times.

But MDB was like painting by the numbers. This goes here and that goes there. Like one critic asked, where the hell was the emergency staff when he turned off her heart moniter thing or whatever it was? If I wrote that, I'd be killed.

But I'm not Clint so... And why in the hell did they need that annoying skinny guy hopping around like an idiot? That character had no reason to be in the movie, only made it worse. The academy sure loves Eastwood.

[AnconRanger]

think the paint by numbers comment was spot on.

spoiler stuff.

it didn't work from beginning to end for me but i understand some folks liked it. and no one loves a good morgan freeman voice over more than me, but...come on, folks.

forgetting everything else...and that's a lot to forget, at the least being that the whole movie hangs on (SPOILERS "turn away!" the gym owner kills the boxer), he should have smothered her with a pillow or something like that. not...you know...struggled inside to put her to peaceful everlast fiiiiiiigter sleep. because she was such a fiiiiiiigter and that's all that ever meant anything to her and she couldn't fiiiiiight anymore.

it was a violent movie, and if they're gonna pull what they did and really kill her, then really kill her.

then go eat your lemon pie.

[Medici]

"The over-all behavior of her relatives was so unnatural as to be unbelievable."


Change "her relatives" to "people" "politicians" or "right-wing hacks;" then think of the Schiavo case.

You can never under-estimate the stupidity or venality of people.


Maybe not oscar-worthy but I enjoyed it. Best Movie last year was 'Spiderman 2"

Worst oscar ever goes to Cher;

[homosapiens]

think the paint by numbers comment was spot on.

spoiler stuff.

it didn't work from beginning to end for me but i understand some folks liked it. and no one loves a good morgan freeman voice over more than me, but...come on, folks.

forgetting everything else...and that's a lot to forget, at the least being that the whole movie hangs on (SPOILERS "turn away!" the gym owner kills the boxer), he should have smothered her with a pillow or something like that. not...you know...struggled inside to put her to peaceful everlast fiiiiiiigter sleep. because she was such a fiiiiiiigter and that's all that ever meant anything to her and she couldn't fiiiiiight anymore.

it was a violent movie, and if they're gonna pull what they did and really kill her, then really kill her.

then go eat your lemon pie.

Are you kidding? I think that this is a serious movie, and the issues were dealt with in a serious manner.

Can you imagine him standing there and stuffing her face with a pillow?

[Hairy Lime]

Hairy, you are eloquent as always. I respect your views, even if I don't always agree with them. I think all movies are manipulative -- some are just better at it than others. One could argue that American Beauty is as manipulative as they come.

I, for one, loved M$B for its simplicity, its beauty and it's outstanding performances -- sure, Swank and Freeman were great, but I thought Eastwood gave the performance of his career.Thank you for the kind words, dg.

I should probably revisit American Beauty to see if I think it's as boldly manipulative as M$B. I guess I should say that I didn't actively dislike M$B. In fact, I walked out of the theater thinking it was worthy of it's Oscar nomination - it's the win that bugged me. Especially since it denied Martin Scorsese a long overdue directing Oscar for The Aviator, which I think was his most mature film to date.

As for Clint's best performance, I'm going to have to stick with Unforgiven. He gave his Man With No Name a conscience and a name. Anytime an actor is willing to decontruct his own mythic hero archetype, he's got my vote (see John Wayne in The Searchers for a similar performance). Simply brilliant.

Oh, and medici, the best film of 2004 was Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. Bar none. No question. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. Spider-man 2 was an exceptional superhero movie, but to call it the best film of the year is fanboylicious. That elevated train sequence in downtown Manhattan where "the bridge is out" cliche is magnified to preposterous levels, is enough to make it popcorn fare of the highest rank.

[Salazkin]

to call it the best film of the year is fanboylicious. :rolling:

[dgrunert]

Hairy - I can see your take on Eastwood's performance in Unforgiven. Unfortunately, I'm in the minority on this one, because I think that film is highly overrated (and I'm a HUGE Eastwood fan). But I've never been much of a western fan. Your comments, however, make me want to go back and watch the film again.

By the way, I also loved Eternal Sunshine. In fact, I keep going back and forth between Eternal Sunshine and M$B as the best film of the year. It just depends on my mood...

[PNChheda]

Someone wrote, "I thought that the characters were well drawn "

I respectfully disagree! All the characters were forced. Here saving pennies and living off off others leftover so she can buy her "evil" mom a house? Oh Common! That is absurdly forced. Also, had it not been for the conservative talk shows who started giving out the ending, the movie would not have gotten an Oscar! Just my Opinion!

P

[jkk808]

Aviator had good production value; interesting, if not great performances; but was a really crappy movie and was the worst of the best picture nominees last year.

Aviator was the most manipulative movie of the year, with every frame you could practically feel Marty saying, "give me an Oscar damnit!"

[cluckyburger]

first, all film is manipulative by nature whether the director is good at hiding it or not
second, eternal sunshine was indeed the best movie of 2004, and one of a handful of the best of the past 10 yrs.
third, her family was indeed cartoonish and not well drawn.

having said that, i liked MDB.
a solid hollywood movie. the kind hollywood is good at making. while not w/o cheese i thought it was actually kind of elegantly made

[Deus Ex Machine]

first, all film is manipulative by nature whether the director is good at hiding it or not

Yes!

Writers of all people should understand this.

Every line, every word, every choice the writer makes is all designed to manipulate the audience.

Complaining that a film is too manipulative is like complaining that water is too wet.

:)

[Hairy Lime]

Complaining that a film is too manipulative is like complaining that water is too wet.Aren't we clever? Of course storytelling is manipulative. However, manipulation at the hands of a master storyteller v. a plodding hack is akin to a $2,000 call girl v. a $25 crack whore. One is infinitely more satisfying even if achieving the same result.

[cluckyburger]

some crack whores are just more fun though. those top dollar callgirls can get prissy

[Pencey]

Eternal Sunshine Of My B*tthole sucked. It was a borefest.

[Bad Liver]

Aren't we clever? Of course storytelling is manipulative. However, manipulation at the hands of a master storyteller v. a plodding hack is akin to a $2,000 call girl v. a $25 crack whore. One is infinitely more satisfying even if achieving the same result.


Thank you Hairy.



The term was clearly employed in this context to refer to manipulation that is obvious and overt.

It's like if someone said, "Wow, I could really feel him acting in that role," and someone replied, "Acting is what actors do!"

You're not supposed to notice it. When you do, it isn't working.

[Deus Ex Machine]

The term was clearly employed in this context to refer to manipulation that is obvious and overt.

As opposed to what?

The subtlety of repeated gang rapes in Shawshank or the rose petal fantasies of the young blond girl in American Beauty?

I guess people here must really hate those movies too because they were so darned manipulative.

[Bad Liver]

Wow, you really like to put words in peoples' mouths, huh?
:rolling:

Interesting how in neither of those movies you cited did I FEEL manipulated.

But in your universe there are no shades of gray apparently. It's one size fits all, all or nothing (hey, it IS fun to put words in people's mouths)


"What I loved about this movie was how manipulated I felt."

I'm gonna have to get used to that one being a compliment.

"This summer's most manipulative film! Two thumbs up!"
- Roger Ebert.

Neat. Next we'll learn that "melodramatic" is a good thing. :p

[Deus Ex Machine]

I personally don't find M$B to be any more obviously manipulative than Shawshank or American Beauty. All three are obviously manipulative, but if you surrender to the story you don't notice it.


And what exactly were the words that I put in your mouth?

[Biohazard]

I personally don't find M$B to be any more obviously manipulative than Shawshank or American Beauty. All three are obviously manipulative, but if you surrender to the story you don't notice it.

You can say the same thing about One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest.

I'd say that the movie that tries to be most manipulative but fails on a massive level is Magnolia. Instead of giving us reasons to care for these 1-dimensional characters (some of which has no bearing on the story) and their circumstances, we are TOLD to care about them and watch them cry every 5 minutes. Honestly...why should I care if some know-it-all brat pisses his pants? I don't because I am given no reason.

[Hairy Lime]

Deus. The skill with which the storyteller manipulates is the difference for me. Because art is subjective, some might loathe the manipulation in one film and embrace it in another. But to say that film is manipulative like water is wet is putting too broad a brush to the canvas. It ignores the skill with which some filmmakers can manipulate an audience (Hitchcock or Wilder, to cite a couple brilliant examples) compared to others who are bulls in the emotional china cabinet (Ron Howard being particularly egregious). The difference, for me, being that there is manipulation that is organic to the story (Ordinary People, Shawshank Redemption, American Beauty, One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest all work for me on that level) and there is manipulation that is inorganic, forced, and obviously intended to elicit an emotional response without regard to the cohesiveness of the story (M$B, A Beautiful Mind, again, for me). I know, as a filmmaker, that I'm smarter than the average bear, because I know what to look for - I know when I'm being manipulated. However, if it is done with skill and respect for the story, I don't mind. In fact, I enjoy it, because I know I'm in the hands of a master. So I sit back and enjoy the ride.

[cluckyburger]

very eloquent hairy. i'm suddenly reminded of spielberg who once belonged in the skillful manipulation category (along w/ wilder and hitchcock) but who now is firmly ensconced in the pap category.

[SteelCurtain]

I completely agree with Hairy on his assessment - spot on. I just watched M$B last night, and was genuinely engaged in it up until the title fight - then it all went horribly downhill. The third act was complete nonsense...and yes, the whole cliched b.s. about the 'daddy being gone and brother's in jail and my momma's on welfare' crap was over the top (and the V.O. was annoying as well). but getting back to it, it seems the film went from sports story to sappy drama in all of two minutes. i think there's a feature on the DVD where you can actually hear the squeal of air being let out of the balloon at that exact moment. all this build-up and then the sappy inhaling of the ventilator sucking it all out. her speech about seeing the world and being on top of it all - where was that?! why didn't we see that? all we saw was her crappy little apartment with her eating leftover steak counting loose change. let's see the success she had. give us an idea of how high she got before it was all lost. forget american beauty or shawshank or what have you, hell, even Rocky put that movie to shame as far as giving us a tangible antagonist to root against - the most we saw in M$B was the half minute first round fights. and for those arguing it was a drama, not a sports movie, then don't show any boxing at all so you don't have worry about completely switching the focus of the film at the end to get your oscar votes. b.s.

[Pencey]

...The difference, for me, being that there is manipulation that is organic to the story (Ordinary People, Shawshank Redemption, American Beauty, One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest all work for me on that level) and there is manipulation that is inorganic, forced, and obviously intended to elicit an emotional response without regard to the cohesiveness of the story (M$B, A Beautiful Mind, again, for me)...

Just to play Devil's Advocate, in your opinion, what scenes in Ordinary People were effective in getting us to feel a certain way but did not manipulate vs. MDB where we are shown the cruel white trash family who only wants the girl's money, doesn't support her dream, etc.?

[AnconRanger]

seemed to me that "they" wanted to tell this story in the most simple way (simple being powerful), but at some point, the most simple way got confused with the easiest way or they lost touch with...something, like characters relating to each other driving an actual story. they just "inserted" this and that person or feeling or whatever and whatnot.

quiet on the set!

REDNECK FAMILY AT HOSPITAL SCENE

MEAN LOOKING BOXER AND STOOL SCENE.

MAN EATING PIE SCENE.

i don't get all of the praise for a story like this.

such a compelling story to work with and all of that talent.

it was definitely simple but not elegant. in my opinion.

especially the seemingly "painless" scene where the manager did what he did before walking out to eat a piece of pie and ride off into the sunset.

i really looked forward to that movie.

bah.

[insanegenius]

I agree the movie was good and not great but what movie of 2004 knocked your socks off? In my opinion none. The Aviator please. Hotel Rwanda it was good but it wasn't great either. Eternal Sunshine creative yes, great movie no. So don't hate on Eastwood hate on Hollywood for not giving us enough great movies lately.

[homosapiens]

I think we should make it a rule on DD that if you diss a movie, you have to provide an example of a great movie. That way, we can really judge your judgments. :|

[BottomlessCup]

Finally caught this on DVD. I'm not sure why I never saw it in the theaters, but I didn't. Anyway...

Hated it. A lot.

The acting was spectacular, though. Clint Eastwood was quite literally flawless. Morgan Freeman was as reliable as ever. Swank isn't quite great yet, but she will be.

However:

1. "Danger" didn't belong in the story. I know a tale this dark needs comic relief, but it was already there. Clint with the priest. Morgan Freeman's humor ("Talk some of that Yeats to her. Show her what a treat that is." Perfection.) "Danger" was waaaay over-the-top and his payoff(s) were cheap, cheap, cheap.

2. The V.O. was awful. It was an exclamation point on a sentence that didn't need it. I didn't mind it much, until the scene where Clint gets the returned letter from his daughter. The eight other boxes on the shelf made the point eloquently. And then the VO steps in, trampling it. It literally made me grind my teeth.

3. With this type of drama, I hate it when they make it so black and white. It becomes melodrama. I want to do some "emotional homework." I want to have to think. The family was so terrible, the accident so horrific and random, the villain-boxer a cheater, Maggie so virtuous, etc. What's the point? Why not just have a Nazi kicking a baby? It's dramatic masturbation. Emotional porn.


Also, I don't think the film has any relevance to the euthanasia controversy. Maggie's situation is one-in-a-gazillion. No connection to the argument surrounding a typical case. But that's an argument for a different forum...

[Pencey]

Finally caught this on DVD. I'm not sure why I never saw it in the theaters, but I didn't. Anyway...

Hated it. A lot.

The acting was spectacular, though. Clint Eastwood was quite literally flawless. Morgan Freeman was as reliable as ever. Swank isn't quite great yet, but she will be.

However:

1. "Danger" didn't belong in the story. I know a tale this dark needs comic relief, but it was already there. Clint with the priest. Morgan Freeman's humor ("Talk some of that Yeats to her. Show her what a treat that is." Perfection.) "Danger" was waaaay over-the-top and his payoff(s) were cheap, cheap, cheap.

2. The V.O. was awful. It was an exclamation point on a sentence that didn't need it. I didn't mind it much, until the scene where Clint gets the returned letter from his daughter. The eight other boxes on the shelf made the point eloquently. And then the VO steps in, trampling it. It literally made me grind my teeth.

3. With this type of drama, I hate it when they make it so black and white. It becomes melodrama. I want to do some "emotional homework." I want to have to think. The family was so terrible, the accident so horrific and random, the villain-boxer a cheater, Maggie so virtuous, etc. What's the point? Why not just have a Nazi kicking a baby? It's dramatic masturbation. Emotional porn.


Also, I don't think the film has any relevance to the euthanasia controversy. Maggie's situation is one-in-a-gazillion. No connection to the argument surrounding a typical case. But that's an argument for a different forum...

I agree with a lot of your points, especially with Danger not needing to be in there. Completely out of place.

Regarding the family...I think the writer should've just had the mother in the story, without the other kids and whoever else was with her. The group made it a caricature of trailer trash. Just use the mother and you avoid this pitfall and make the relationship conflict stronger between Maggie and her mother.

[homosapiens]

Can you imagine the story without Danger? I think he's a nice addition. Maybe he's not a part of the overall plot, but I think his role is in line with the theme of the movie.

[dgrunert]

Danger is crucial to the story. Without him coming back in the end, Scrap (Freeman) would lose everything. Danger represents hope and the undying spirit - same as Maggie (Swank) did for Frankie (Eastwood).

[BottomlessCup]

Then maybe they could've written/directed/acted the part in a manner consistent with the tone of the script. It's like he wandered over from an Adam Sandler set.

[postalpictures]

This movie is a piece of garbage full of cliched stereotypes. Clint Eastwood hasn't directed a good movie besides Unforgiven. Total crap.

[Landis26]

I liked MDB a lot. Didn't totally love it. Couple of things threw me off track...

When Morgan Freeman's character decided to stay behind and not go to the big fight, it seemed odd. I wondered what he was up to. Then his excuse became the truth, and the only reason he stayed behind was because the script dictated it. That was a flaw. Actually, bad writing.

And like others said on this thread, her family was too over the top. This movie was pretty subtle most of the time, and they threw the tone off.

[WriteNow]

Whew! Glad to know I'm not the only person who wasn't bowled over by this movie. I was into it until the third act, then WTF! The whole thing derailed into a giant soap opera. I could barely finish it. As for the crassness of the trailer trash family, the mother was entirely believable to me but having the entire family be like that was over the top. Couldn't they have at least one be a decent human being (besides the protag)? Every family has one self-centered b*tch (or b*stard in my own case) to contend with but it stretches credulity beyond the breaking point to have the entire family be self-serving a$$holes.

[Pencey]

Every family has one self-centered b*tch (or b*stard in my own case) to contend with but it stretches credulity beyond the breaking point to have the entire family be self-serving a$$holes.

And that's why I say that if the writer would've just used the mother, he would've been okay. With a group, it looks like a stereotype.

[Salazkin]

MDB seems to be the most hotly debated "piece of garbage" to come along since Mystic River. I see a pattern.

I agree that the ending of Mystic River was pretty lame, and that the third act of MDB was a letdown, but I can still say that, on the whole, both films were better than 99 percent of films out there. Eastwood really dares to push the limits (of drama/credibility -- opposite sides of the same coin), and I applaud him for it. The industry is filled to the brim with those playing it safe.

[Salazkin]

I think we should make it a rule on DD that if you diss a movie, you have to provide an example of a great movie. That way, we can really judge your judgments. :| I totally agree. (Casablanca was great!) ;)

[Biohazard]

MDB seems to be the most hotly debated "piece of garbage" to come along since Mystic River. I see a pattern.

I agree that the ending of Mystic River was pretty lame, and that the third act of MDB was a letdown, but I can still say that, on the whole, both films were better than 99 percent of films out there. Eastwood really dares to push the limits (of drama/credibility -- opposite sides of the same coin), and I applaud him for it. The industry is filled to the brim with those playing it safe.

I have to agree. M$B is a very flawed film, but it's still better than 95% of all the other films coming out these days.

[Hairy Lime]

Sal and Bio need to see more films.

[AaronB]

Well, I liked Cinderella Man myself...but I'm a sucker for Depression period pieces AND boxing movies, AND I really like Renee Z. and any hard-pressed hero who comes through for his family.

So I was kind of pre-programmed to like CINDERELLA MAN.

[Biohazard]

Sal and Bio need to see more films.

Recommend some, champ.

[Biohazard]

What are the odds than the discussion would stop here? :rolleyes:

[roscoegino]

What a thread. I've come to learn that the only people more critcal than professional critics are writers who have not sold.

[miles]

Here's a great movie. It's a no-brainer, I know: Citizen Kane. But one of the things that stuck with me the most is when the accountant (I think it was the accountant) said that there's that one girl you see and you think of her everyday for the rest of your life. So true.

[Hairy Lime]

What are the odds than the discussion would stop here? :rolleyes:Odds were greatly improved by the condescending "champ", champ.

[Biohazard]

Odds were greatly improved by the condescending "champ", champ.

Ok, then pretty please recommend some.

Is that ok, your excellency?

[Hairy Lime]

I'd start with the other Oscar nominated films in 2004. Then perhaps the official selections at Cannes 2004. Throw in anything not covered by those that won awards at Sundance, Berlin, and Toronto in 2004.

The Oscar nominees ... alphabetized ... to get you started ...

As it is in Heaven
The Aviator
Before Sunset
Being Julia
The Chorus
Closer
Collateral
Downfall
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
Finding Neverland
Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
Hotel Rwanda
House of Flying Daggers
The Incredibles
I, Robot
Kinsey
Lemony Snicket
Maria Full of Grace
Motorcycle Diaries
The Passion of the Christ
The Phantom of the Opera
The Polar Express
Ray
The Sea Inside
Shrek 2
Sideways
Spider-man 2
Troy
Vera Drake
A Very Long Engagement
Yesterday

(italicized I liked better than M$B ... of those I've seen)

I'm by no means suggesting all of these films are better than M$B, but these represent just a drop in the bucket for the theatrically released films of 2004.

Think about it this way ... if M$B had been directed by an unknown the same way shot for shot, would it have garnered so much as a nomination?

[Biohazard]

Think about it this way ... if M$B had been directed by an unknown the same way shot for shot, would it have garnered so much as a nomination?

That's funny...I was just about to say the same thing about The Aviator. What exactly did you like about that movie? The only reason why people give it such high praise is because the name Scorsese comes with the director's credit. If the film was released with your name or my name listed as the director, nobody would give two f-cks about it. It's sad to see Scorsese/his film lose the oscar for best directing/best picture AGAIN, but at least this time...he deserved to lose.

And what exactly was the point of the movie anyway? We really got no revelatory information about the life of someone who supposedly lived a very unique one. There was no theme or character arc at all...he's the same psychopath in the last scene as he was in the rest of the entire film. I know it might be the way he was in real life, but that doesn't make for good cinema.

I don't know about you, but I can relate more to the never-say-die girl with a dream who gives it everything she's got until she's down on her death bed than some famous airplane nut who locks himself in a room, naked, and pisses in milk bottles. What exactly am I supposed to like about that?

I'm not saying that MDB is the absolute best movie of 2004, but it's one of the better ones. I really enjoyed the performances and the actors are perhaps the main reason why I went to see it in the first place. I might agree that other films of 2004 are better, drew me deeper into the story, and held my attention with a much more firm grasp. I turned on HBO one night while waiting for 10 minutes to pass so I could watch something that was coming on at that time. Ray happened to be on, and I happened to actually finish watching the movie to the finish. Hotel Rwanda is another great movie (kind of like the african Schindler's List).

I noticed that you listed Eternal Sunshine... and A Very Long Engagement. I was going to get both of them but my check book just got anally raped by bills today.

But like I said before...all the acclaim for The Aviator is not for the film itself, but for the name Scorsese. Heck, it's the reason I bought the dvd.

[Hairy Lime]

I thought The Aviator was Scrosese's most mature film to date. His handling of honest human relationships and emotions went far deeper than anything we've seen from him since Raging Bull. I also absolutely loved the airplane sequences from the recreation of Hell's Angels to the speed record chase to the date over Hollywood to the Spruce Goose. I'm not even an airplane buff, but those things added so much to the story. Given that Scorsese isn't a flying fan either, his handling of the material is pretty remarkable.

I felt as though Hughes did have an arc ... only it was downward from brash, confident young man with a hand washing compulsion to an agoraphobic, mysophobic, anthropophobe who peed in milk bottles. Of course, that's the trouble with biopics. Very few people have lives that fit into a typical 3 act narrative.

For me the primary mistep of The Aviator was the opening scene with the mother and the bath. Without that scene, his journey to madness would have been much more engaging.

[andlary1]

I just saw M$B two days ago on DVD.

First of all, whoever scores Eastwood's films (him?), I want to do mine.

Secondly, whoever shoots his, I want to do mine. :cool:

I defer to you experts on M$D's styles, mechanics and techniques; however, I didn't feel particularly manipulated, Hairy. I'm not quite sure what you mean. You mean to a pro POV?

[Pencey]

I would've given Scorsese the Oscar for Best Direction but not Best Picture. Those airplane scenes were fantastic.

Regarding MDB...it's been on cable recently but I have no desire to see it again. That movie just doesn't have any replay value at all. I'm starting to believe myself that it was highly overrated.

[MacG]

M$B = another over-hyped, unjustly awarded piece of junk courtesy of Paul Haggis.

[Hairy Lime]

I didn't feel particularly manipulated, Hairy. I'm not quite sure what you mean. You mean to a pro POV?No, my complaints regarding manipulation have to do with emotional manipulation. There's a very fine line between high emotional resonance and overly manipulative, teeth-grinding melodrama. I think M$B crossed that line. It had nothing to do with the film taking a POV on euthenasia. I expect any issue film to have a POV. Otherwise, what's the point?

This backlash at emotional manipulation is obviously a personal response to the film. Many people I know and respect have loved this movie for its emotional impact. Likewise A Beautiful Mind. I don't like either film because I felt they went too far in the manipulation of the audience's emotions.

[andlary1]

Can you provide me the name of a film that has a comparable high emotional aptitude without the manipulation so that I can compare? Thanks.

A

[Hairy Lime]

For me personally The Apostle, Cider House Rules, In the Bedroom, Kramer v. Kramer, and Ordinary People are all sublime examples of heightened emotional drama without crossing the line. Others might disagree.

[Jake Schuster]

I think an older film, "The Best Years of our Lives", works sublimely without ever showboating or emotionally manipulating the audience. It's the story of three servicemen just back from WWII, dislocated, detached from their families, unable to relate to anyone but each other. Each is distinct: the well-off banker; the flyer from the wrong side of the tracks; the Navy man who'd lost his hands in a fire (as the actor who played him had).

But there are scenes in the film that are as powerful for me, emotionally, as they were when I first saw it when I was a kid. Beautiful directing; superb acting. And, somehow, utterly true to real life.

[andlary1]

I think an older film, "The Best Years of our Lives", works sublimely without ever showboating or emotionally manipulating the audience. It's the story of three servicemen just back from WWII, dislocated, detached from their families, unable to relate to anyone but each other. Each is distinct: the well-off banker; the flyer from the wrong side of the tracks; the Navy man who'd lost his hands in a fire (as the actor who played him had).

But there are scenes in the film that are as powerful for me, emotionally, as they were when I first saw it when I was a kid. Beautiful directing; superb acting. And, somehow, utterly true to real life.

Yes, Jake, in fact I use this film in one scene iin my own screenplay.

As to the other flicks, I've seen them all, except Kramer.

I will now watch them again to find that "hands off" quality you and Hairy talk about.

Thanks.

Pardon that terrible pun, Jake.

[Hairy Lime]

I was gonna mention that one, jake, but figured I'd stick with movies even billy could watch.

[Jake Schuster]

The Three Stooges didn't do a lot of stuff from the heart, Hairy.

[andlary1]

The gentleman who played the vet who lost his hands really was a vet who lost his hands and won the oscar for best suppporting actor.

Little oscar trivia for ya, Hairy. I'm too lazy to look it up for ya. sorry.

[andlary1]

Jake, have you ever seen the Three Stooges in French?

:rolling:

[Jake Schuster]

That's right, Andrea. He lived in Massachusetts all his life and died a few years ago. He lost his hands in a training accident (so never saw service).

Les Trois Comparses? Mais non, Andrée, jamais! (Mais, il me semble très drôle:D )

[vig]

maybe the single most overrated film in the history of cinema. two scenes away from bein purchased by life time.

vig

[Jake Schuster]

Lifetime wasn't in business when it was made, Vig. And hardly overrated (by whose standards, yours?). Watch the scene when Frederic March returns home and his wife isn't yet aware he's inside the front door. It's a superb use of space and time and the magic of delay.

[whitenavel]

maybe the single most overrated film in the history of cinema. two scenes away from bein purchased by life time.

vig

Not true. Right behind Mystic River and Chicago.

[vig]

well as a matter of fact i just has a couple slices at mystic river last month. anyway. mystic river was a better movie.

vig

[Jake Schuster]

Better than "The Best Years of Our Lives"? I'm not sure how they can be compared. One is a story of soldiers back from a war; the other about a bunch of guys in Boston and a murder.

[NoTalentAssClown]

i think Vig meant Million Dollar Baby was two scenes away from being purchased by life time, and Mystic River is better than Million Dollar Baby. Not "Best Years..."

[Jake Schuster]

That's cool. Now I feel much better. :)

[vig]

wow, sorry. i had pizza at mystic pizza last month. i loved mystic river and it was double the movie million dollar baby was.

vig

[ShaneBlackFan]

I don't this film either:

It's perfectly legal to turn off machine support. The andrenalin shot is quite painful. Something Haggis missed.
The use of the mentally disabled was in bad taste. You knew the confrontation was coming.

[andlary1]

That's a relief! I thought you meant Best Years of our Lives too. Then I immediately composed a post about arrogant Generation Xers who know nothing about the greatest generation! :D

Hairy, about manipulation. The scene in church with Eastwood and the priest?

a

[andlary1]

[quote=Jake Schuster]Re: The Three Stooges in French

Les Trois Comparses? Mais non, Andrée, jamais! (Mais, il me semble très drôle:D )

You ex-teachers are all alike. Look it up! Look it up!

:bounce:


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