Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind - Excrutiating [Archive]

billythrilly7

08-17-2005, 11:17 PM

My top 150 movie list has plenty of great movies.

I just thought it was going to be funny and interesting and the love story might by love storyish and I love Jim Carrey and everyone loved the movie so how could I not at least like it.

OOOF. I was wrong.

I don't like movies like Memento and using all these tricks.

I'll say what I said about Memento regarding Eternal.

It's a nice piece of work on some artistic level. I see that.

But it's a snoozefest.

If you play Memento in chronological order instead of backwards it's a "big eh."

I was watching and just bored to tears and I didn't care if they erased each other or not. I WANT TO ERASE THEM!

I'm sad. Like Roger Ebert says, "We go in wanting to love every movie we see!"

I even made popcorn.
:(

Pencey

08-17-2005, 11:34 PM

Billy boy, I agree with you...

I thought Eternal was the worst thing I've seen all year. I liked the concept of the film, but the execution was horrible. It was soooooo boring!

I didn't care about the characters at all, and on top of that, the whole thing seemed convoluted to the point where I stopped trying to figure out what was happening and just wanted to go to sleep. Why people think this movie is so great is beyond me...

refriedwhiskey

08-17-2005, 11:35 PM

Well, surely you liked the popcorn, at least.

billythrilly7

08-17-2005, 11:43 PM

Thank you, Pencey. Thank god I'm not alone on this.

Popcorn was a little too buttery, actually, and now I have a bit of a tummy ache. Time to get my Thrilly sleep.

g'night

Architeuthis Dux

08-18-2005, 12:19 AM

I loved it.

I really liked that Kaufman and company took what was almost a Philip K. Dick premise and made it a slice-of-life contemporary thing full of real human emotions and the vraisemblance of day-to-day existence in contemporary America, with subtle overtones of the classical Greek concept of eternal recurrence, where personality is destiny.

I also thought the way the film portrayed the inner mental experience of Jim Carrey's memory erasure was brilliant. The writing Oscar was well deserved.

Incidentally, Memento also shoulda won the Oscar the year it was nominated.

And, anyway, I like chocolate covered raisins to go with my popcorn.

voxel

08-18-2005, 12:27 AM

It was soooooo boring!

Why people think this movie is so great is beyond me...

It's one of my favourite movies of all time! I think it depends on whether you sympathize with the Joel character. I am also a huge fan of Gondry's music video work and Mr. Kaufman's other films, so the chance of me not liking it were slim to begin with.

I just saw the Big Chill for the first time and I hated it (but the dialogue is witty), because I found the main characters abhorrible with few redeemable qualities. Maybe I'm too young to understand the whole hippie-disillusionment issue.

refriedwhiskey

08-18-2005, 12:37 AM

Oh, Eternal Sunshine is a great movie, make no mistake.

That's every bit as true as Billy's and Pencey's opinions of it are unsurprising.

Salazkin

08-18-2005, 01:18 AM

I actually can understand how some people found it excruciating to watch. Pretty taxing on the brain. But I still liked it. Premise: exceptional; Story: exceptional; Structure: good; Execution: fair; Characters: fair... IMO, at least.

Biohazard

08-18-2005, 02:01 AM

I don't like movies like Memento and using all these tricks.

I'll say what I said about Memento regarding Eternal.

It's a nice piece of work on some artistic level. I see that.

But it's a snoozefest.

Memento is just a well-executed gimmick parading itself around as a deep, thought-provoking masterwork.

I'd just like to add that christopher nolan is getting way too much credit than he deserves. His "style" is so generic, it's almost as if he doesn't want people knowing that he directing his films. You could put bryan singer's name on batman begins and nobody would know the difference.

refriedwhiskey

08-18-2005, 02:35 AM

Speak for yourself. I would.

vmf

08-18-2005, 06:52 AM

I thought this movie was exceptional when I watched it, and virtually everything, from the writing to the performances, was spot on. It was "real-world romantic" in a way that many will identify with, there were quite a few inventive parts, and although it wasn't as clever by half as either Malkovich or Adaptation, it made the movie a bit more accessible.

The only thing that I would have toned down was the harsh light and nonexistent cinematography, as it was almost like the director wanted it to be "uglier than real life" and scream "I"m a cheap independent movie!".

Otherwise, it's a beautiful film.

pconsidine

08-18-2005, 07:18 AM

I was a little displeased with the ending. Perhaps I'm a little Pollyanna when it comes to love stories, but I would have rather not seen them figure out what happened. It was more interesting to me to imagine that they could have gone around and around forever and never figure out that they had been there before.

Of course, the idea of Joel knowingly continuing to see her, even after he knew everything he'd come to hate about her, probably played better for the type of story that Kaufman wanted to tell. It just seems more like his style.

Totally loved Kate Winslet, too. I thought she was great in her role.

Deus Ex Machine

08-18-2005, 08:23 AM

Kaufman is brilliant. No argument here. I find his films to be emotionally detached and dripping with self-loathing. I though Eternal Sunshine was his most mature and most emotionally engaging of all his films, but that isn't saying much because the bar was pretty low. The guy can spin a concept, but he doesn't tap into your emotions as much as he does your intellect.

I didn't find Eternal Sunshine to be nearly as emotionally moving as it needed to be. It was too sterile for my tastes. Maybe it was the focus on the subplots of Dunst getting drunk and the affair with the boss being revealed. Maybe it was the romp through the overly Freudian memories at the climax, when the story should have been cutting the character's hearts open it was playing with their minds. Maybe it was the detached and emotionally deadpan acting style. Maybe it was the concept itself. Maybe it was all of it.

I thought it was extremely clever and inventive, but too emotionally flat and sterile for my tastes. I think it was less flat and sterile than his previous films, but it was still too detached to have an emotional impact on me.

Cheese

08-18-2005, 08:55 AM

Thank goodness. I was beginning to think I was the only one who didn't like this thing. I love the concept, but the execution was like pulling teeth for me. I tried hard, but I just didn't care about these characters. And since I'm one of those dorks who pays too much attention to lighting/cinematography, watching this thing was EXCRUCIATING for me.

I begged my wife to watch it with me since it was supposed to be this great, Oscar worthy story, and she loves Kate Winslet.

I got the divorce papers yesterday.

jessejames

08-18-2005, 09:13 AM

I haven't gotten around to seeing this movie yet, but I thought the script was brilliant. Now after reading this thread, I'm thinking maybe I'll skip it and keep that nice little movie in my head. And that just rhymed so now it's definite. :o

Hairy Lime

08-18-2005, 09:19 AM

Good idea. Admire the blue prints. Ignore the building.

Hewlett

08-18-2005, 09:22 AM

If you play Memento in chronological order instead of backwards it's a "big eh."

Maybe, but so what? It wasn't meant to be watched that way. That's why it was structured the way it was. What's the point of judging a film on how it might not have worked if done differently? :rolleyes:

If you don't like a movie, that's fine - people's tastes are different. But come up with a better criticism than that....

billythrilly7

08-18-2005, 09:29 AM

The point is that it's a gimmick and the story wasn't that great.

Not to mention that they stole the idea from a Seinfeld Episode.

A lot of people go "oooh" and "ahhh" when some gimmick is being used even though everything else "eh."

Memento had a good gimmick and a lot of people enjoyed that and that's great. I'm not discounting their movie experience.

For me it was like, "Okay, everything is backwards, and at this point I don't care what the resolution is because I'm bored with this character and the story."

But that's me, I'm an enigma.

Salazkin

08-18-2005, 09:31 AM

jessejames

08-18-2005, 09:31 AM

Good idea. Admire the blue prints. Ignore the building.

What do you think of the execution? That is what most are complaining about.

billythrilly7

08-18-2005, 09:37 AM

Well said, Deus. On an intellectual level, the film (Eternal Sunshine, not Memento) is pure, unmitigated genius. But it didn't move me terribly. The characters, though well acted, just didn't invest me in their struggle.

Yes.

If on an intellectual level the film is genius, I can see why I'm having a problem.

holla!

But I said, I can tell this is a great piece of art. But if I want art, I'll go to some crappy movie theater in the East Village or go to some Underground(code for sucky movies) film festival.

I don't want art. I want a movie.

Thank you.
WHT7

Hasil Adkins

08-18-2005, 09:45 AM

Great concept, brilliantly executed. As compelling and beguiling an exploration of heartsickness, loss and memory as you will ever see.

I suspect many of the movie's detractors don't have the life experience to relate to some of its themes, but that's fine. To each his own. For what it's worth, rottentomatoes counts 192 positive reivew vs. 15 negative.

Gondry is enormously talented. Rent 'The Work of Michel Gondry' if you are inclined to disagree.

Hewlett

08-18-2005, 09:45 AM

I don't want art. I want a movie.

You should make that your sig.

Deus Ex Machine

08-18-2005, 09:57 AM

The great thing that Memento had going for it that the reverse Seinfeld episode didn't was that the chronological order of Memento was organically linked to the premise of the film and by using it the audience was put in the protagonist's shoes of not fully understanding what is happening and trying to make sense of it on the fly.

I don't think Memento was a brilliant story, it's good, though not as repeatably watchable as other films.

I suspect many of the movie's detractors don't have the life experience to relate to some of its themes, but that's fine.

That's a rather broad generalization and I'm curious to know what you base it on.

Joaneasley

08-18-2005, 09:58 AM

It worked for me as a movie -- visual and fascinating and true and emotionally affecting. I loved his struggle not to lose her. What a testament to the idea that love is more necessary than anything, even common sense.

In the course of the movie, he weighs their whole relationship, the good and the bad. It's very truthful, far more truthful than most sugar-coated romances. Yet even knowing what he knows about the bad parts, he says it's still damn well worth fighting for.

billythrilly7

08-18-2005, 10:02 AM

You should make that your sig.

Yes.

Hasil Adkins

08-18-2005, 10:09 AM

Deus,

It's not a generalization. It's a suspicion, as posted. Bolstered by some of the comments posted.

I base it on my experience; most (if not all) of the people I personally know who didn't connect with the movie are younger dudes and dudesses who just haven't spent too much time in the romantic meat grinder. (That said, I'm sure there are some wizened old fools for love like myself who *didn't* like the movie.) It doesn't make them wrong, or their taste suspect.

There are plenty of movies I didn't appreciate at 20 that I now love. Being There is one. The King of Marvin Gardens. The Lion in Winter.

Hairy Lime

08-18-2005, 10:12 AM

What do you think of the execution? That is what most are complaining about. Eternal Sunshine worked for me on every level. Intellectual. Emotional. Visceral. I thought the execution was brilliant. The editing, shot selections, performances. It all worked perfectly for me.

I laughed. I cried.

I loved Clementine. My heart ached for Joel.

I've loved that deeply only to have it gone. I cherish those memories and embrace the residual pain, because without it I wouldn't be able to keep those memories. And that's what this movie is about. I understood the duality - keep the pain and the memories or lose them both. Which is better? That's a rather broad generalization and I'm curious to know what you base it on. I didn't make it, but I'll reply. It is a broad generalization, but I suspect there is a correlation. People who I've talked to who have not liked some of the better art films of the past few years are most often disappointed, because they didn't connect with the characters. You're obviously less likely to connect with the characters if you can't find a mutual experience.

I've found this to be true for Eternal Sunshine, Lost in Translation, and Sideways. All critically acclaimed art films that have found large audiences relative to their budgets, yet are sometimes lightning rods for criticism by people who don't see what the big deal is. This isn't to say you could connect with the characters and still be underwhelmed with the film, but that it's more likely that you were underwhelmed if you didn't connect.

My example would be Y tu mama tambien. I know people who go nuts over that movie. I wasn't moved. I just didn't connect for whatever reason. I felt no mutual experience with the characters and I was bored watching people deal with issues I hadn't dealt with - things that didn't seem important to me.

Hasil Adkins

08-18-2005, 10:32 AM

You're obviously less likely to connect with the characters if you can't find a mutual experience. Well put, Hairy. Can I have you respond for me from now on? :)

Hairy Lime

08-18-2005, 10:41 AM

Perhaps we can coproduce. Not sure that I'm up for writing assignments.

Deus Ex Machine

08-18-2005, 10:44 AM

The reason I asked is because I am not a 12 year old kid. I have deeply loved the wrong woman and for years I loved her in spite of how wrong we were for each other enough to be engaged to her.

I know what it's like to be heartsick and yet despite the many similarities I found between the characters and my own experiences -- I did not find the film to be very emotionally engaging or satisfying.

OTOH, I have never been crucified but I did understand the pain of it and feel great sympathy for those crucified when it was portrayed as effectively as it was in The Passion of the Christ.

I think it's easy to dismiss detractors of the film as those who lack the life experience to "get it". I think it's more likely that the film simply failed to "give it".

Yes, that old debate again.

:)

billythrilly7

08-18-2005, 10:52 AM

If you want a great romantic comedy/love story go buy Serendipity or The Notebook on DVD.

Enjoy.

Hasil Adkins

08-18-2005, 10:56 AM

I loved her in spite of how wrong we were for each other I think I dated her, too. Laura? From Kentucky?

I can certainly agree to disagree with people on this one, though I can't understand why the original poster would dismiss it as 'boring' and unwatchable.

Hairy Lime

08-18-2005, 10:59 AM

This film was nominated for 75 and won 30 awards from 41 different festivals, guilds, or academy organizations around the world. It was recognized with multiple nominations or awards for writing, directing, editing, acting, and art direction. It's ranked #31 on imdb's top 250 (not a great yardstick, but 31st is relatively impressive). It pulled in $34M domestic and reached over 1,300 screens at it's widest release in the U.S.I think it's easy to dismiss detractors of the film as those who lack the life experience to "get it". I think it's more likely that the film simply failed to "give it".More likely that the artist failed to deliver than the patron failed to connect?

In this case?

Bullsh-t.

Deus Ex Machine

08-18-2005, 11:02 AM

though I can't understand why the original poster would dismiss it as 'boring' and unwatchable.

On that we agree. It was hardly boring and most definitely not unwatchable. The guy is brilliant. His work effects me like the best episodes of the Twilight Zone. They are clever, inventive and surprising but not very emotionally compelling - for me.

Deus Ex Machine

08-18-2005, 11:08 AM

This film was nominated for 75 and won 30 awards from 41 different festivals, guilds, or academy organizations around the world. It was recognized with multiple nominations or awards for writing, directing, editing, acting, and art direction. It's ranked #31 on imdb's top 250 (not a great yardstick, but 31st is relatively impressive). It pulled in $34M domestic and reached over 1,300 screens at it's widest release in the U.S.

Primer won awards and critical praise too.

By your standard that would mean it too is a very emotionally compelling story that gave the widest possible audience the most accessible story it could.

Hairy, you and I are never going to agree on this issue of the story teller's responsibility to "give it" over the audience's responsibility to "get it".

We will have to agree to disagree.

Hairy Lime

08-18-2005, 11:11 AM

Primer's intent was not emotional response.

I know we're not going to agree, but I'm saying in this case, the artist gave it (as evidenced by the accolades and comments from others who did feel an emotional response with Eternal Sunshine), you just didn't get it. That doesn't mean you're wrong, it only means that as a patron, you did not connect with the art. It happens all the time and it is not the artist's or patron's fault. It just is.

jessejames

08-18-2005, 11:17 AM

Hairy I think you are very wise, and based on your recommendation I think I will go check out that building. Everything you said you loved about the film, is what I loved about the script. My tendency to be naive, was taking over for a minute.

Also I think you are onto something. Life experience definitely helps you connect with films. I didn't enjoy Lost in Translation. Probably because I couldn't relate. I spent a year in a foreign land, and hardly ever felt lonely. It was a wonderful time in my life, so maybe that's why I didn't connect with the characters in the film?

cluckyburger

08-18-2005, 11:48 AM

even while recognizing that all art affects different people different ways i don't know how anyone who's had their heart truly broken (hell or even just liked someone alot)
could not be devastated by eternal sunshine.
it's not some cheap parlor trick, it's all emotion
that gondry/kurras' camera stuff doesn't detract is even more
astounding.
this is as close to a 'perfect' film as i've seen

on the other hand, my wife and i made the grave error
of bringing my folks to see this movie and they, despite our fervor,
"didn't care for it".

Cheese

08-18-2005, 01:14 PM

that gondry/kurras' camera stuff doesn't detract is even more
astounding.

I could not disagree more. I felt like I was watching Eternal Sunshine of the Blair Witch Project.

Yeah, yeah, different lighting/camera styles are designed to evoke a mood and all that. This evoked a mood, all right. It pissed me off.

Salazkin

08-18-2005, 01:52 PM

I felt like I was watching Eternal Sunshine of the Blair Witch Project.
:rolling:

Ravenlocks

08-18-2005, 02:10 PM

I can certainly agree to disagree with people on this one, though I can't understand why the original poster would dismiss it as 'boring' and unwatchable.
Um, maybe because he found it boring and unwatchable? That's his right.

I liked Eternal Sunshine. I liked the premise. I was fine with Kaufman's execution, although I would have done it differently if I were writing it, just because I'm me. Yes, it was clever, but I didn't find it dry or dull or emotionally unaffecting.

I didn't exactly understand why Carey's character and Winslet's character were attracted to each other, but I totally bought everything else.

BottomlessCup

08-18-2005, 02:18 PM

This movie creeps up about two spots on my "all-time" list with each viewing, which is frequent.

I don't understand how someone could hate it, but I'm sure the haters don't understand how I could love it so much.

Thank god there's enough money floating around for all sorts of movies.

Hairy Lime

08-18-2005, 03:18 PM

This movie creeps up about two spots on my "all-time" list with each viewing, which is frequent.I agree.

This was in my top 100.

Then my top 50.

Then my top 20.

Then my top 10.

Now my top 5.

I could see it settling at #3 potentially. The jury's still out.

MacG

08-18-2005, 03:41 PM

I really have a problem with Charlie Kaufman. I hated JOHN MALKOVICH...I hated ADAPTATION...and I hated ETERNAL SUNSHINE upon first viewing.

Then I caught it several months ago when it preemed on Cinemax. Found myself oddly moved by it. Saw it again a few weeks later. Thought it was magnificent.

(But I still hate MALKOVICH and ADAPTATION.)

vmf

08-18-2005, 06:36 PM

The great thing that Memento had going for it that the reverse Seinfeld episode didn't was that the chronological order of Memento was organically linked to the premise of the film...

Not only that, but Memento was NOT entirely in reverse order, and there were scenes out of the timeline, such as the phone calls in the motel room and the flashbacks.

Hairy Lime

08-18-2005, 06:58 PM

Irreversible was a much more challenging reverse narrative feature. Ten 10 minute master shots. And Monica Bellucci.

Salazkin

08-18-2005, 07:15 PM

I agree.

This was in my top 100.

Then my top 50.

Then my top 20.

Then my top 10.

Now my top 5.

I could see it settling at #3 potentially. The jury's still out. Sounds like Sunset Boulevard and Unforgiven are safe, eh Hairy?

And, oh yeah... Monica Bellucci. :love:

Hairy Lime

08-18-2005, 07:20 PM

Sounds like Sunset Boulevard and Unforgiven are safe, eh Hairy?For now. Eternal Sunshine has definitely been the biggest competitor in recent memory.

le kilt

08-19-2005, 01:57 AM

I really have a problem with Charlie Kaufman. I hated JOHN MALKOVICH...I hated ADAPTATION...and I hated ETERNAL SUNSHINE upon first viewing.

MacG, have you seen HUMAN NATURE? It's more broadly comic than the others, but it's my second favorite Kaufman, after ES. As usual though, that probably puts me in a minority here (of one).

kintnerboy

08-19-2005, 06:25 AM

One of the reasons for the wide popularity of a film like Groundhog Day is that it is entirely possible to enjoy it solely as a slapstick comedy or a sweet happy-ending romance without ever really getting what it's all about.

Eternal Sunshine doesn't have that luxury. But it's puzzle-like narrative, which is not a 'trick' of any kind, invites repeated viewings which only grow more rewarding.

Actually, the only trick may have been the marketing of this film as any type of a comedy, which it is not. It is a scholarly treatise on emotional wrecklessness and heartbreak.

It's easily the finest film produced in the last ten years. I don't feel any condescention towards anyone who doesn't get it. Just a little pity.

Cornelius Pug

08-19-2005, 06:58 AM

I certainly 'got' it. Thought the concept brilliant, but did not buy into the emotional flatness of this passionless love affair. I thought the Kate Winslet character contrived - a 'paint by numbers' eccentric (weird hair - check, whacky originality - check). I found the night picnic on the frozen river contrived as hell, as if Kaufmann wrote this scene after reading a WC Martell tip of the day - "make your scenes original, come up with original locations".

Shame, because I think it had the capacity of being utterly brilliant if Kaufmann had truly engaged his and his audience's emotions. BO receipts would have reflected that. Perhaps Kaufmann is too 'in his head' to write a from the heart love story.

Cornelius.

Disclaimer -- the above is not meant to be disrespectful in any way to WC Martell's work.

Cheese

08-19-2005, 08:57 AM

It's entirely possible to "get" it and not like it.

TheKeenGuy

08-19-2005, 04:28 PM

If you play Memento in chronological order instead of backwards it's a "big eh."

I've decided that Citizen Kane is also an extremely flawed film, because if you played it in chronological order, that second half with the reporter would be really boring and it'd just tell us a lot of stuff we've already seen. Orson should be ashamed of himself.

billythrilly7

08-19-2005, 05:41 PM

Well, Citizen Kane just stinks. IMO.

I don't care what order you play it in.

When it came out, I'm sure it was brilliant. Now, it's unwatchable.

Eternal Sunshine doesn't have that luxury. But it's puzzle-like narrative, which is not a 'trick' of any kind, invites repeated viewings which only grow more rewarding.

Believe it or not, I have a life. I don't want to have to watch things repeatedly so I can be rewarded. I want to be entertained when I watch it the first time.

This bored me to no end. Vat can I say.

English Dave

08-19-2005, 05:52 PM

Yup Kane stunk. Worst movie ever. And my friend comic book guy agrees.

Pencey

08-19-2005, 05:53 PM

People who I've talked to who have not liked some of the better art films of the past few years are most often disappointed, because they didn't connect with the characters. You're obviously less likely to connect with the characters if you can't find a mutual experience.

I've found this to be true for Eternal Sunshine, Lost in Translation, and Sideways. All critically acclaimed art films that have found large audiences relative to their budgets, yet are sometimes lightning rods for criticism by people who don't see what the big deal is. This isn't to say you could connect with the characters and still be underwhelmed with the film, but that it's more likely that you were underwhelmed if you didn't connect.

Yeah, I turned ES off after 30 minutes because I couldn't connect, but it was other things too. I just didn't like the characters in general.

On the other hand, I felt distanced from the characters in The Ice Storm but I was capivated by them and I couldn't wait to see what came next. I also thought there was a lot of humor in there which really made me laugh.

So I agree that you don't have to be emotionally involved to really like a movie but it sure does help...a lot.

Johnny Stacatto

08-19-2005, 09:55 PM

yea, those movies where you gotta pay attention... :rolleyes:

Biohazard

08-19-2005, 11:12 PM

I watched Citizen Kane for the first time about two weeks ago and I think it's one of the greatest films ever made. Even though so many people say that it is, it still lived up to it's reputation (unlike countless films from the 90's).

Two things that really struck me as brilliant in CK was the directing and the editing. It's a damn shame that nobody still makes films like CK today. Instead, most people are intent on making their movies as generic-looking as possible. Just like I said about Nolan. Memento and batman begins would probably look exactly the same if bryan singer directed them. But nothing looks like a Stanley Kubrick movie except Stanley Kubrick movies. The directors of today are nothing at all compared to the legends of the past.

billythrilly7

08-19-2005, 11:16 PM

You only liked it because you were supposed to like it.

It's human nature though, so it's cool.

Biohazard

08-19-2005, 11:21 PM

You only liked it because you were supposed to like it.

Actually, the last Welles film I saw before Kane was The Trial, and I read a lot of great reviews about that. But it was a huge disappointment. I did like Touch of Evil, however. So I expected it to be good but not great. Turns out that Kane was not only great, but one of the best.

Something similar happened while watching Casablanca for the first time. It was on TCM one day and I had nothing better to do, so I turned it on and said to myself "let's see why this gets so much praise". I was totally captivated by it and regretted even thinking that it might suck.

I'm supposed to like all those so-called "great" films from the 90's, too...right? Then how come they didn't live up to expectations?