Oliver Twist

[Pen Dragon]

3rd version, TV or cinema, since 1997. I can understand a new version every 15 or 20 years, what was Polanski thinking

[GQIQJoe]

Word on the street is the cinematography is phenomenal.

That's all I got.

[razerfish]

3rd version, TV or cinema, since 1997. I can understand a new version every 15 or 20 years, what was Polanski thinking

He was probably thinking about raping another 13 year-old. Imagine his disapointment when he found out the story was about teenage boys, not girls.

[Jake Schuster]

Surely what attracted RP to this is is own story of abandonment as a child during the Nazi ooccupation of his country.

[Hairy Lime]

Glad to see people can separate the art from the artist. Polanski's a genius filmmaker with some personal demons. But rather than labeling him a pedophile, why don't we explore the deeper issues that created the man?

Born in Paris in 1933, his Jewish Polish father and Roman Catholic Russian mother moved back to Poland in 1937. In 1939, Poland was invaded by Nazi Germany. His parents were sent to Auschwitz where his mother was murdered. He escaped the Krakow Ghetto and spent the majority of World War II wandering the European countryside alternately foraging for his own existence, being shot at by German soldiers, and hiding on Catholic farms. In 1945 he was improbably reunited with his father. Both he and his father are Holocaust survivors even if he was never imprisoned, he certainly would have been sent to a camp had he been caught.

Later, the man who had grown up under conditions most of us can't fathom, had his wife murdered by a cult. Not just any cult, the Manson Family. They'd been married for 18 months and she was 8 months pregnant with their first child.

Now, any guesses about how these life experiences might alter one's perception of acceptable behavior? Any idea what kinds of atrocities the 8 to 12 year old Roman witnessed during WW2? Any idea what it's like to have your wife and unborn child butchered? Any idea what the age of consent was in WW2? Any idea what the age of consent is in Poland or France where Polanski spent much of his teens and 20s?

Polanski never went to trial. He plead guilty to statutory rape after agreeing to a plea bargain. He fled to France after learning that the judge was going to disregard the plea bargain. The judge was overheard saying that he was going to make an example of Polanski. Polanski could have been sentenced to as much as 50 years in prison after pleading guilty on a plea bargain. I'd have fled too.

But enough about that.

Pen, the last English language theatrical release of Oliver Twist was directed by David Lean in 1948.

Polanski's drawn over and over again to the theme of isolation (same theme I virtually always write from). What's more isolated than an orphan? Since Polanski himself was an orphan for the duration of WW2, this is an ideal story for him to tell.

[Jake Schuster]

Hairy was also abandoned as a child. He roamed the streets of Hackensack, rolling drunks and stealing lunch-money from schoolkids.

Seriously, I'm with Hairy in placing this story firmly as a reflection of Polanski's life. The first movie he made after Tate was murdered was a bloody "Macbeth". I based a character on RP in my third novel: a Hungarian filmmaker who as a kid had witnessed the murder of his parents, and who is always amazed when critics accuse him of making movies with too much blood in it. Likewise with Polanski (or with any director): he's attracted to what he knows best, the better to explore his past.

[vmf]

But enough about that.

Damn straight. Everybody's got a sob story masquerading as an excuse.. just watch Oprah.

Now let's get back to talking about the movie, which I think is beyond its shelf life, and will fail to connect with today's audiences - who think "Classic Literature" is an early Stephen King book.

[The Big G]

I can't wait to not see this one.

[Animus Zaphodius]

Polanski's one of the best filmakers of our time.

[Joe Unidos]

I just wish he'd do a version of "Little Women" so the jokes could really fly.

[Jake Schuster]

This is getting old really fast... :|

[Architeuthis Dux]

I dunno, I laughed at the "Little Women" joke.

[rumely]

The 1968 musical is still very relevant to today's society. The character Nancy is torn between doing what is right and being faithful to her abusive boyfriend. Her song "As Long As He Needs Me" still packs a powerful punch. Dicken's story is truly timeless.

The new Oliver Twist should look great. Let's hope he pulls of the story just as well.

Rum (recently known as "Beadle Bumble" in Oliver!)

[jellyjilly]

>>. . . any guesses about how these life experiences might alter one's perception of acceptable behavior?

Hairy, anyone I'd care to know would learn from these experiences that it's completely unacceptable to exploit the unprotected and vulnerable.




>> . . . The first movie he made after Tate was murdered was a bloody "Macbeth".

Jake, Polanski said in an interview years ago that this choice had nothing to do with Sharon Tate's murder. He pointed out that no matter what he made, people would would either call it shockingly close to his experience or shockingly different.


But as for Oliver Twist, I've seen one good review of it, and I love Charles Dickens, so if it keeps getting good reviews, I'll go see this thing that was directed by someone who shamefully exploited a little girl who was shoved into his lecherous arms by an irresponsible stage mother.

[Jake Schuster]

Jake, Polanski said in an interview years ago that this choice had nothing to do with Sharon Tate's murder. He pointed out that no matter what he made, people would would either call it shockingly close to his experience or shockingly different.

Too late now. My novel's been in print, out of print and soon, I hope, back in print. The character's obviously Polanski, and, anyway, I like the idea that his imagination was a little dark and bloody at that stage.

Hairy, anyone I'd care to know would learn from these experiences that it's completely unacceptable to exploit the unprotected and vulnerable.

I think it should be pointed out that, as horrendous as this way, in this particular case, the woman in question has no interest in pursuing charges against Polanski. Look, when I was nineteen and in college I had a brief fling with a nice Catholic girl of (just) sixteen. As we crossed state lines at least once each weekend, we were breaking all kinds of laws. But she was completely willing (she'd been around, believe me), I was too (of course), and...screw it... I'm not going into any more details. :devil:

[Hairy Lime]

The details of the case aren't nearly as cut and dry as the bandwagon would have you believe, but whatever ... still a genius filmmaker.

[vmf]

in this particular case, the woman in question has no interest in pursuing charges against Polanski.

Wow, I guess that makes it alright. :rolleyes:

P.S. I've seen this woman interviewed several times, and she, like many rape victims, just wants to put this whole sordid mess behind her - which hardly absolves him of guilt.

I do know that if the rapist had been a greasy stagehand with a taste for the young girls, he'd still be rotting in jail... but because it's Polanski, somehow that makes him the victim. Bizarre.

[refriedwhiskey]

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/polanskicover1.html

[Hairy Lime]

Nothing like a victim telling the DA what they want to hear.

[Jake Schuster]

Nobody's saying he's the victim. It's just a lot more complicated than it at first seems. Back in the day I'd known lots of guys who'd "slept" with girls and then found out afterwards they were only fourteen or fifteen. A lot of girls worked hard at looking older and more sophisticated, sex was a hell of lot freer than it is today, and nobody ever asked how old someone was.

It doesn't make it for one second right; it's just how it was back then.

Talking 'bout my g-g-g-g-generation.

[alipali]

I think some are getting carried away with the word "rape" as it applies to "statutory rape".

Polanski is no monster. And the ire heaped on him here is tiresome.

[whistlelock]

Two reasons why I won't be going to see this film.

1) I can't abide Victorian literature. Overly florid.

2) It's Dickens. I can't stand Dickens. I had to read too much of it in High School.
While, I normally endorse seperating the work from the writer, I have trouble doing so with Polanski. There are some issuses I can't let go of, and that's one of them. I try to watch his movies with a neutral mind-set, but I'm not always successful. Mostly in the case of the 9th Gate. Can't abide that movie either.

[refriedwhiskey]

I think some are getting carried away with the word "rape" as it applies to "statutory rape".
I see. So rape is fine as long as the victim's too young to know the difference?

[Hairy Lime]

refried. I know you know this, but consensual sex with an underage person is "statutory rape" while sex against someone's (any age) will is "rape".

What I'm positing (not saying I'm right) is that Polanski is a European with different social mores who got wrapped up in the decadent Hollywood lifestyle (parties, booze, sex, drugs). He crossed a line and a strong arm judge decided to make an example of him. The judge planned on throwing out the plea bargain (the only reason Polanski pled guilty) and putting Polanski in prison. Polanski's case never went to trial. He was never convicted by a jury of his peers. He pled guilty to avoid a trial and get on with his life. The judge was overhead in a restaurant the day before the sentencing saying that he was going to give Polanski the max. Word got back to Polanski, who boarded a plane. I would have too.

[Animus Zaphodius]

Every fifteen year old boy would jump at the chance to sleep with an older woman. Hell, when I was a boy I prayed for an older women to come along and molest me. I just had to say that.

[refriedwhiskey]

I know you know this, but consensual sex with an underage person is "statutory rape" while sex against someone's (any age) will is "rape".
Yes, and the reason the concept of statutory rape exists is to protect the victim who isn't old enough to know what she is doing when she consents to sex, not mature enough to say "no" when she doesn't want sex, etc. The law correctly presumes the older person does know it's wrong, and so it's not considered consensual sex. Non-consensual sex=rape. It's illegal for the same reasons child molestation and child pornography are illegal.

Compounding the fact that the girl was only 13; she was drugged with champagne and quaalude. I think to say "Oh, she knew what she was doing" is ridiculous and callous. And I believe if the guy we're talking about were just a jr. high school principal or a friend of the victim's family instead of an acclaimed director, no one here would be defending him with highly dubious remarks like "it was another time," or "he's European," or -- most incredibly -- it was "only statutory" rape.

He commited rape. He tried to cop a plea to get out of prison time, then skipped the country when it looked like that wasn't going to play with the judge. If you guys don't admit he deserves punishment, he sure as hell knows he does -- which is why he's afraid to even set foot in the UK, let alone the U.S.

If you can separate the art from the man and enjoy his movies, fine -- but don't pretend the man isn't a rapist who escaped punishment.

[alipali]

I see. So rape is fine as long as the victim's too young to know the difference?



That's exactly what I meant, thanks refried.

[Authorized]

Every fifteen year old boy would jump at the chance to sleep with an older woman. Hell, when I was a boy I prayed for an older women to come along and molest me. I just had to say that.

Yeah. I overheard that older woman in a restaurant and she said she was going to give you the max....

[vmf]

And I believe if the guy we're talking about were just a jr. high school principal or a friend of the victim's family instead of an acclaimed director, no one here would be defending him with highly dubious remarks like "it was another time," or "he's European," or -- most incredibly -- it was "only statutory" rape.

That's my problem with these comments as well.

I have no problem if you want to support child rapists and molesters - it's a free country - but also throw your approval behind the regular scum bags who don't happen to direct movies.

[Hairy Lime]

The age of consent in our country is as arbitrary as it is anywhere else and these laws differ quite a bit from country to country. Why do arbitrary national borders dictate these sorts of things? Why is it a crime in one country and not in another? Perhaps it's not a universal truth? Nah, forget that. Let's just make blanket statements and not consider the bigger picture.

[English Dave]

I think there are some countries where it is acceptable to have sex with a thirteen year old. But not in Europe. Or any other civilised nation on earth. We're not talking about a 17 year old and a fifteen year old or even a fourteen year old. Hey, it happens and it's stupid to pretend it doesn't or can be stopped. But this is a 43 year old and a 13 year old. Plied with drink and drugs. No excuses.

[vmf]

Now let's get back to talking about the movie, which I think is beyond its shelf life, and will fail to connect with today's audiences - who think "Classic Literature" is an early Stephen King book.

I just had to ressurect this old one, as I just noticed it was coming out on DVD and only made $2 million on a $60 million budget.

No comment on its quality mind you ...

[Ravenlocks]

I had no idea it was even in theaters.