View Full Version : What is a real SUBPLOT?
i've been reading the reviews to some recent movies that have been released and noticed the ones with bad reviews supposedly have weak subplots. i even read some reviews from SAW, which i thought was pretty good, and a few critics mention a weak subplot.
can anyone tell me what makes a good subplot? or can you give an example of a good subplot in your opinion from a popular movie?
thanx in advance! :cool:
patriot games
a good subplot works when the main character has to solve a big stakes problem, while his character has a emotional problem he must take care of as well.
ryan must save the assasination of a leader, and stop the ira from bombing people, while he also has to save his family from the ruthless ira terrorist who has his family on his death list which gets even more detailed because the wife wants her husband to get out of the system anyway, so there is tension at all levels.
the godfather
There is so many things going on, first and foremost the safety and power of the corleone family is the plot, how they work the business, but the subplot is how the only son they want clear of the business micheal becomes one of the main guys while his wife is trying to keep him out of the business.
if the mainplot is about the leads falling in love that usually a romantic comedy, and then the subplot would be them achieving a goal.
BULL DURHAM
crash wants to get to the pros for one shot, while he is in love with the women who is dating the teams best player who crash is supposed to mentor.
vig
TIN CUP
the main character has to win a golf tournament to have enough money to live.
the main character has to win a golf tournament while trying to get the antags girlfriend to fall in love with him.
it works best when the main character can solve both problems against the antag, but does not necessarily have to work with those two players.
vig
should all characters in the story have a subplot or motive?
you're not really making the connection here. all characters have motives and the entire script revolves around them, but secondary characters have a goal, or motive, but you do not want to muddle the story by giving them multiple goals because they take up pages that are needed to move the 'A' story.
when they talk about the scripts focus, most often scripts start unraveling because the main character's motive is not clear and in many cases the secondary characters are begining to dominate the screen
it works best when the secondary charcter's motives work against the main characters goal so that right there causes more obstacles for the main charcter.
all the motives should either help, or hinder the lead characters overall objective and this is why its so very important to have a structurally sound script.
vig
wolfy262
10-23-2005, 08:14 AM
Sub-plots usually reflect, in some way, the main plot/story/theme - but there are always exception so don't get bogged down in the rules.
Lantana is a good example of a film where the sub-plots/theme all tie in to the main plot/theme.
Alternatively:
http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Subplot
A movie like Four Weddings and a Funeral has multiple subplots to examine, including the romantic fate of all the supporting characters. Some marry, some die, others decide to stay alone, but the movie does give ample time to each of them.
Even the photograph montage at the end help tie these subplots up in a nice little bow.
HD writer
10-23-2005, 02:43 PM
Subplots don't necessarily push the plot forward but they don't hold it back either. Subplots are small units unto themselves; They create a deeper and richer story atmosphere. They give us more insight into the lives of the characters in the movie.
Adaptation is filled with subplots. Each subplot in some way is intertwined with one another. Charlie's obession to adapt the book The Orchid Theif into a screenplay is the man plot of the movie but other subplots emerge: Susan Orleans relationship with La Rouch, Charlies relationship with his twin brother Donald is actually another sub plot until it merges with the main plot.
Casablanca is fillled with many supplots: Isla and Rick's love afair, Laslo and Isla's revoltionary mission to save France, The young belgium couples desire to leave Casablanca, and the Nazi plot to capture Laslo.
The best way to create subplots is to see how the main plot stands on its own then concure to yourself where another story line is needed.
Subplots can offer us a nice distraction from the main plot thus keeping the audience interested in plot A: Casablanca and Shawshank Redemption to name two examples.
Biohazard
10-23-2005, 02:43 PM
but the [godfather] subplot is how the only son they want clear of the business, micheal, becomes one of the main guys
No, that's the plot.
that's debateable, i think there is to much of don corrleone and if he's going to live or not and if he's going into the drug business to push him out of the main plotline.
i think you're a movie to early, godfather two was about micheal and the subplot the rise of the family.
close call though.
vig
English Dave
10-23-2005, 03:58 PM
Sub-plot is only useful if it enhances or explores the dynamics of the main characters or theme of the story. Otherwise you are p1ssing in the wind.
I'd like to be more erudite but ...it's late here and I'm on Absolut for research purposes.
Biohazard
10-23-2005, 04:14 PM
that's debateable, i think there is to much of don corrleone and if he's going to live or not and if he's going into the drug business to push him out of the main plotline.
If you look closely at the Godfather story, you will see that everything that happens in the beginning leads up to Michael's eventual take-over of the family business. Example:
MAJOR GODFATHER SPOILERS
(i assume everyone here has seen the movie, if not, shame on you)
In order for Michael to take over, the father needs to leave the position of power. What happens is that he gets shot and almost killed. So one of the three sons needs to take over. Fredo is sent to a casino in (vegas?), so he is not around to take control. Michael is sent to Sicily (spelling?) to avoid the police after the killing of the police captian. This is a necessary part of Michael's gradual turn to the "dark side". First, his father's life is put in danger and he gets his jaw broke trying to protect him. That pisses Michael off and he kills the cop and the other guy. I assume (AKA need to see the movie again) that Sonny is in control at this point, so for him to leave power and have Micheal take over, Sonny needs to be evacuated from his position somehow. The whole thing with his sister's husband goes on and Sonny is killed. Michael then returns home after his first wife is killed. That pisses him off again, along with the killing of his brother, and then Michael is even further on his way to the dark side. So an example of a subplot from The Godfather would be Sonny trying to stop his sister from getting the sh-t kicked out of her by her husband.
I hope I got everything right. But as you can see, everything that happens leads directly to Micheal's turn from good to evil and his rise to power. That is the plot.
Steph76
10-23-2005, 04:48 PM
The purpose of the subplot is to provide new interest and add more substance to the plot. In a well rounded script a subplot will further a character and plot developement, reveal the character's motivations, and add conflict. In other words, a subplot isn't thrown in just for the sake of throwing it in. It has to add to the story.
"Ocean's Eleven" immediately comes to mind when I think of subplot.
The main plot is...Danny Ocean and his crew plan to rob three major Las Vegas casinos all owned by Terry Benedict.
Why Terry Benedict?
In comes the subplot...Danny wants his wife back, who is dating Terry Benedict.
Without this little subplot, there is no motivation, no conflict.
The conflict begins when Ocean reveals himself to his ex-wife in the resteraunt. He tells her he wants her back. Then in walks Terry Benedict who immediately becomes suspicious. Later he informs his guards to arrest Ocean if he takes one step inside his casinos. The night of the robbery, Ocean is spotted, Terry's thugs throw him into a small room. (All planned by Ocean). Later when Terry realizes he's been robbed, Ocean could not have been part of it because he was locked in a small room during the time of the robbery. Terry has no choice but to let him go.
In a nutshell...without the subplot (Danny's attempt to get his wife back-motivation), Terry would not have become suspicious (conflict), and Danny would not have been able to get away with the robbery, (screwing up the ending).
Think of it as a domino effect, every piece creates the actions of the next. A good subplot will move the story forward, add to the story. If your story is understandable without the subplot, the subplot is weak.
Steph
TDWoj
10-23-2005, 05:18 PM
Hmmm.... I'm surprised that you would consider this a subplot since it smells more like the motivating event that propels the story. Of course, I didn't see Ocean's Eleven (either version) so I'm not qualified to comment on the particulars, except as what was written above.
I always thought a subplot was a story within a story, the sub not necessarily having anything to do with the main plot.
Empire Strikes Back- Plot: Luke Skywalker is being trained in the ways of the Jedi in order to defeat the arch-evil-guy Vader. Subplot: Han and Leia's love affair. The love affair has nothing whatever to do with Luke Skywalker's becoming a Jedi, but without it, ESB would be pretty damned dull.
English Dave
10-23-2005, 05:23 PM
Hans love affair directly affected the character motivations. It is very dangerous to introduce a sub plot that has no bearing on main story or characters.
TDWoj
10-23-2005, 05:31 PM
Hans love affair directly affected the character motivations. It is very dangerous to introduce a sub plot that has no bearing on main story or characters.
It had a bearing on the other subplot, which was Vader's desire to lure Luke into his grasp. So, yes, in that sense, it all tied together. But taking the example of Ocean's Eleven subplot posed upstream, it is not the motivating factor for Luke's training in the ways of the Force. I was merely trying to understand the Ocean's Eleven submission as an example of a subplot, when to me, clearly, it wasn't.
HD writer
10-23-2005, 06:30 PM
The purpose of the subplot is to provide new interest and add more substance to the plot. In a well rounded script a subplot will further a character and plot developement, reveal the character's motivations, and add conflict. In other words, a subplot isn't thrown in just for the sake of throwing it in. It has to add to the story.
Hmmm. When you say "it has to" your implying that it's a rule.
I agree that a subplot should enhance the plot. However this is not a rule but an option.
A subplot can also contradict the story.
No matter what, I was right that a good subplot ehances the overall telling of the story.
I hope I got everything right. But as you can see, everything that happens leads directly to Micheal's turn from good to evil and his rise to power. That is the plot.
http://scriptsales.com/boards/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://scriptsales.com/boards/images/buttons/report.gif (http://scriptsales.com/boards/report.php?p=156489) actually biohazard your explanation has reinforced my opinion and diminishes yours. the plot was about the power of the family, and the subplot micheal, evolved into the leader and then the second story is micheal once again trying to save the family. the main plot has always been about the corrleone family in all the movies.
vig
Angeloworx
10-23-2005, 07:26 PM
A good subplot echoes the same theme, gives us something new about the main character, exploits a possible answer for the premise and adds a real character in the mix.
Barton Fink. Watch John Goodman's story and how that represents the troubles a writer has writing a movie in Hollywood.
Steph76
10-23-2005, 08:41 PM
Hmmm.... I'm surprised that you would consider this a subplot since it smells more like the motivating event that propels the story. Of course, I didn't see Ocean's Eleven (either version) so I'm not qualified to comment on the particulars, except as what was written above.
I always thought a subplot was a story within a story, the sub not necessarily having anything to do with the main plot.
We don't know Danny's motivations until about half an hour into the movie, when Tess, his ex-wife appears. Danny's a professional thief, he robs things, that's what he does. He doesn't need any motivation. So we don't stop to consider why he wants to rob these three casino's, we just know that he does. Until Tess appears. (subplot).
You're right, a subplot is a story within the story, but it has to connect to the main plot in some way.
When building a unit on a house, you don't put the unit twenty yards away from the house in the middle of the yard. It's PART of the house as a whole, and should be connected to the main house. Same as a screenplay.
BTW, I urge you to watch "Ocean's Eleven". It's a great movie!
Hmmm. When you say "it has to" your implying that it's a rule.
I agree that a subplot should enhance the plot. However this is not a rule but an option.
A subplot can also contradict the story.
No matter what, I was right that a good subplot ehances the overall telling of the story.
I'm not sure what your not getting. Yes, a subplot must add to the story. If not, what is its purpose? Sure it can also contradict the story, but it better make sense in the end.
All subplots are CONNECTED to the main plot. Every single one of the subplots is theme related - they ALL help support the story in the main plot.
Words by Bill Martell.
Why put in a subplot if it's not going to add to the story? :rolleyes:
Steph
i'm glad i posted this question. you all have been helpful with your comments. ocean's eleven and oceans twelve were both great movies too.
i like pancakes.
Steph76
10-23-2005, 10:29 PM
I like green eggs and ham. :D
TDWoj
10-24-2005, 07:39 AM
I don't like Brad Pitt, so Ocean anything is a no go for me.
I do, however, like potato pancakes. With sour cream.
Biohazard
10-24-2005, 12:41 PM
actually biohazard your explanation has reinforced my opinion and diminishes yours. the plot was about the power of the family, and the subplot micheal, evolved into the leader and then the second story is micheal once again trying to save the family. the main plot has always been about the corrleone family in all the movies.
The plot of the Godfather is about Micheal's rise to power, not Sonny or Fredo or Vito or the whole family, it's all about Micheal, and the events and lead to his rise. He is the reason the story is being told in the first place.
are u talking about jus part 2? or the entire trilogy?
i like french toast.
Frankclone
10-26-2005, 07:51 AM
I recall running across an example of a poorly integrated subplot--Frank Sinatra as a detective with a sick wife in hospital. The main action alternated with his visiting his wife in hospital- but there was no connection whatsoever between these two elements. No outside threat to his wife, no dilemma (such as attending to her vs. working), no amplification of theme, no competing love interest... nada.
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