McKee , Truby, Hauge, Vogler or Trottier

[VM]

I was in the screenwriter's chat room last night and there were some heated arguements about whose book is better, which guru is a waste or great , 3 acts vs 4 acts, etc.

which Author or style do you like and why

vm

[Cyfress]

I've never read Truby, Hauge, Vogler or Trottier.

[CRASH]

They're all a waste of time.

[Jami]

I prefer Hauge and Vogler, along with lots of produced screenplays.

For me, it's similar to the process of driving a car. I watched my parents drive for 16 years. But someone still had to break it down for me.

Jami

[Jeff Schechter]

Crash:

Do you truly believe that an aspiring writer can learn nothing from any of the above or are you just trying to be controversial?

[CRASH]

Jeff -- that is simply my opinion. I realize I'm in the minority.

[Mocean Mgmt]

I agree with Crash to a point--but I think it truly depends upon what you're looking to gain by attending one of these seminars.

This topic came up somewhere else around here recently and it eventually led to the question "can these guys teach writing?"

In a word, no. You either have it or you don't, and if you do, well, you probably don't need them, and if you don't, well, you don't need them then either.

I attended McKee several years ago and was bored to tears. I mean, I studied literature and writing for four years in college and this was just a summation of that (side note: McKee recites his book verbatim. No room for questions, free thinking or jumping into hypotheticals. You're just as well to buy his book on tape...and it's cheaper).

On the other hand, I find these types of things inspiring in other ways--when I attend IN PERSON. I find myself taking notes on all kinds of OTHER things and brainstorming ideas that have nothing to do with the seminar in question. Same with the speakers at Scriptwriter's network, who for the most part, end up questioned about very basic things that any beginning screenwriter should already know. Same with other seminars and gurus I've heard. But these things get me thinking about other things and next thing you know I've completed a rough outline for a story or put together a marketing plan for a script...

I found Vogler's book interesting from a creative writing perspective, but again, I think you either know these are the elements in successful screenplays or you don't. I'm not familiar with the others mentioned in the subject of this posting.

But again, I have to say this: I don't think anyone who can't write will get anything from any of these people. Those who can...probably not either because as a marketing schtick, each of these "gurus" has to focus on something different which leads newbie writers to focus on the most mundane things like page count, brads, fonts, and capitalization. They end up confused by "Negation of the Negation" and so forth. If you're a storyteller, you do this without naming it, period.

The three most productive things I've ever done were:

1) I took a screenwriting class through UCLA. It forced me to write. I turned in pages each week and got a dead-on accurate and sometimes harsh but always encouraging response to what I was doing. It was wonderful.

2) I interned in story departments.

3) I read a lot of bad scripts, as an intern, a reader for contests and for production companies.

[Cyfress]

I still think reading scripts and breaking them down scene by scene is the best way to do it.

Look to see how the writer gets out Backstory, exposition, emotions. Find the conflict in every scene. Familiarize yourself with what conflict looks like and sounds like. How does the writer get us to know his character? What choices is the character faced with?

For me, breaking down scripts is so much more productive than sticking your nose in a "how to" book written by a man who never "has done".

[Steve]

"They're all a waste of time."

Crash, do you say that having read them all?

[BlueParrot2]

I recommend the following books. They don't deal so much with the craft of writing but I find their personal struggles and anecdotes far more inspiring and educational than gurus rehashing some Greek philosophy and using Star Wars or Chinatown as the basis of their thesis.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0671024256.01._PE30_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0375703195.01.__PE30_PIm.arrow,TopLeft,-2,-19_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0446391174.01.__PE30_PIm.arrow,TopLeft,-2,-19_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0306810972.01._PE30_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0786886900.01.__PE20_PIm.arrow,TopLeft,-2,-19_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg

[AndyWarholsGhost]

I've read almost every screenwriting book that has come out over the last three or four years, including everyone mentioned above.
You know, they're fun to read and all that, but I can't say they've taught me as much as watching films, reading scripts of produced films I've seen and haven't seen, and also the contest scripts I'm reading now.
You just can't distill it down to some formula. This is me only, and I'm sure that some people really take to this @#%$. It did, in the beginning, help me learn how to format though.
However, I've never found a book that could help me become better at re-writing, and that's what it's all about, the rewriting.
My opine only.

[CRASH]

Oh yes. Just like every writer who started out, I drowned myself in how-to-books. I even listened in on about half of Mckee's seminar. I'll even go so far as to admit that when I was reading these books, it made me feel like I was "in the loop."

But ultimately, in retrospect, the only thing I really learned from them was format. Which I could have easily learn from reading other scripts, but I didn't have that kind of access to them then.

Hey man, this is just me. I didn't learn a damn thing about writing from these guys. I've been saying this since day one, so it should come to no surprise to anybody.

I can't fault someone for reading or buying them, cause I did the same thing too at one point. But if you ask me if they're worth anything, I'll say no. On a generous day, I'll say they're worth very little.

[wcmartell]

You take what you need and disregard the rest.

Like MM, I found myself wishing McKee's seminar would just end. Everyone else in town swears by it - but I took it a couple of years ago and it was rehashing the most basic of basics - just with complicated terms. (McKee's people comped me... then wanted me to sit in a special seat up front so that I could be pointed out as a pro writer talking thae class - I sat in back instead.) I don't know why we need the term "image system" when we have the perfectly good term leitmotif - this stuff just adds to the confusion.

Most of these guys cover the basics - stuff you can figure out by watching a lot of movies (I did), but sometimes it might be useful to know what to look for when you're watching the movies. I usually suggest Hauge's book to writers just starting out because it covers the basics AND tells you where to set the margins.

But once you know the basics, there are still craft elements. You can watch a thousnd movies and read a thousand scripts and figure out how to create a plot twist that works or how to avoid OTN dialogue - but why not read a book that shows you a method that works? That gives you a clue as to what to look for when you're reading all of those scripts.

I have a shelf of screenwriting books - all published after my first script was produced. Many were a waste of money (stuff I already knew) and the rest had one or two interesting things in them. I figure I'm never too old to learn.

Nothing beats reading scripts, though.

- Bill

[AnconRanger]

While I do think you either have "it" or not, I think if that "it" isn't developed and honed, you'll never write at your full potential.

Part of that is reading scripts, studying movies, getting feedback, etc. and I think reading books and attending seminars by those who know screenwriting is a good way to spend one's spare time when not drinking beer and doing other important things...especially when starting out.

As long as I'm learning, I'm taking another small step forward.

We learn from each other and some are better teachers than others. And unlike me, some people really do know what they're talking about.

People can have a great knack for creative writing, but not know the fundamentals of creating a great story. I've always looked at this like very few writers, even successful ones, become "masters" at understanding storytelling. But there are some who know a great deal and have a knack for TEACHING those important things.

[Olga]

1) I took a screenwriting class through UCLA. It forced me to write.
-- Mocean, interesting, you mean, you wasn't really interested to write before you took the class? Or it just gave you a boost?

Me -- no books, no classes, no seminars, I attended the screenwriting panels in Austin though but to that point I had 3 finished scripts. I've read some plays by Chechov and Tolstoy in school and after, the plays are very close to screenplays.
I learned the format from the websites and the theory class was over.

Sure, all of you can say that my scripts are unsold thus they are drek, written by an ignorant person. But if to believe to my readers it's not so.

But I'm not saying that the all books are useless. Maybe, I'll read some one day, after I finish that script. :)

[Steve]

Good to know, Crash. I was just curious since I know writers who dismiss all how-to books without reading any of them.

I like Truby but only for re-writing. For me, his theories are too complex at a stage when I'm still exploring. McKee is kind of a pompus ass but I felt he had some good points.

Mostly I find that what is useful is one of these books will take something I know and articulate it better than I can. That can be really helpful.

Where I think these books are really damaging is in their popularity among non-writers. I had a pitch where a producer wanted me to put "he goes on a heros journey of self-discovery" in the opening paragraph. It felt really stupid and trite to me but the worst of it is that the story isn't a heros journey story.

This is one place where I really credit Truby. He points out that there are a number of myth forms (redemtion, resurection, etc) and the heros journey is just one of them. Unfortunately, people read Vogler and think every story has to follow the heros journey model. That is a very, very bad thing.

I think Bill's (at least I think it was Bill) point is a really good one. Read a bunch of scripts, then read the books. All they are are theories of analysis. You need to get the stories and the structure and the rythyms of good writing pumping through your veins. Then the books just help articulate what you know inside.

If you start with the books and try to slavishly follow them you're more than likely to end up with a "correct" but formulaic script.

[johanh]

dd is one of the best classes you can get

there's a trove of treasure here if you read between the lines :)

[AndyWarholsGhost]

Actually,
I would like to say that I have read Martells book over five times, and that one either pumps me up about writing again, or helps me bring it all back into perspective.

And I'm not kissing up, it's just the truth.

I would also have to agree with Blue's list.

[creativexec]

There are some good points being made here.

I love reading books on screenwriting. (BTW,
great list, Blue.) In fact, I collect them and
have books that date back to 1909.

I think these books can allow people to talk
intelligently about screenwriting. However,
I don't necessarily believe one can LEARN how
to write a script from them.

A writer needs to have the innate gift to
start with. These books can offer up suggestions
and tools, and even motivate, but they cannot
enable one to write a winning script.

These books offer up the same kind of useful info
you'll find on HOME AND GARDEN TELEVISION.

I love to watch THIS OLD HOUSE, but I'll never
be able to build a home based on the info
provided. A lot more goes into it than that.

Ditto with screenwriting.

[Mocean Mgmt]

Yes, I was interested in writing, but I'm one of those people who thrive on a deadline. I do it around the house, at work, you name it. I make lists. Yes, I'm one of those. So imagine me in a class where I have to write 15 pages a week...woohoo. A challenge! ;)

I find a lot of people who call themselves writers don't write. It's getting old. I go to these networking sessions where writers get to pitch and it seems every single time I find someone with a really good idea (I'm talking THE BEST concept of the entire day), they haven't written it. They just wanted to see if I'd be "interested."

I guess what I'm saying is, if you're a writer who wants to write, those are the things I suggest you do. It's a boost to take a class where you're forced to write no matter what. I think you take discipline and good habits with you, and if you end up with a rough draft of a script too, you've really done well for the same amount of money you'd spend on all the books out there and/or a seminar here and there. As for reading scripts, though you give up the time it takes to do it, it's a mandatory and rewarding learning experience, and all part of the job.

[Mocean Mgmt]

But does that mean I'll never be Martha Stewart?

Seriously though, you may not learn how to build a home by watching that show, you will learn a heck of a lot by hanging out with people as they do it, or by attempting it yourself. It won't be the best house ever on your first attempt, but you sure as heck will have a headstart on the next one.

[Sledgeh101]

I think a workshop instead of a seminar would be better for those who want to see if screenwriting is for them and need a little structure. For less than I would have paid for going to McKee's 2 day seminar, I went to a 10 week workshop. It may not have been as 'rpofessional' as McKee's seminar, but I learned a hell of a lot and wrote while I was there (that, and I didn't have to worry about coming in on a Saturday, which I would if I were to go to McKee's seminar).

As for books, if you're going to pick up a book on format, one that I would recommend would be "How NOT to write a screenplay" by Denny Martin Flinn. Not only does he tell you about format in an easy manner, but he also culls examples of good format from various well known scripts and contrasts them with scripts he's had to read (he also makes a point to point out that he's not a writer - just that he read a LOT of scripts, and this is his opinion on what to do to make a script work - or not work).

[Gilliatt]

There were a few reasons why I like McKee's book more than any of the others. Most importantly, I felt like his was the only book that didn't add to the myth that writing is simple.

From Crasus, in Howard Fast's "Spartacus"-
"There are two things that every man feels he is capable of without any training or education. Write a novel, and lead an army."

[warmgoodness]

Aside from format, there is one other 'valuable' thing you can learn from these guys -- particularly McKee:

How to speak like a development executive.

[Mocean Mgmt]

Nah, even development people don't get McKee. ;)

But you do learn that by reading scripts--you get a good feel for the industry jargon, etc.

[ferds]

What question is being anwered here:
Which or does any of the book teach aspirants how to write a "great script?" OR which or does any of them show one how to write a marketable script?

creativexec and mocean: Aren't most readers, most of them being aspiring screenwriters themselves, oriented and follow the formulaic when evaluating scripts?

Thanks.

[Mocean Mgmt]

I don't think I understand the question. Help?

[CRASH]

I'm glad you said something, Beth, because I was too ashamed to admit I didn't understand it either.

[ferds]

Please let rephrase:
Are you debating which among the books teaches "how to write well" OR which of them shows how to write a "marketable" script?

I've read only a few of them and I'd say Seger is overrated. As to learning how to write what works and marketable, I find Martell's proven treatise helpful, informative.

[Olga]

Writing is like singing -- if I don't have a singing voice no training in the world will make me sing like Celine Dion nor can they teach me how to obtain that voice.
But if I have the voice, the training might help tremendously to improve it.

[ferds]

Can voice training teach one the correct way of singing, even though they can't show you how to develop a voice like Celine Deion? :rolleyes

[BlueParrot2]

why does Celine Dion beat her chest when she sings? is she tarzan?

[ferds]

Celine Deion does sound like Tarzan to me sometimes. :rolleyes

[Olga]

Ferds, you can learn how to breathe right, when singing; you can do some voice exercise and such. Yes, you can improve your voice. The actors learn how to use their voice, an actor can whisper on the stage and it will be clear up to the last row. It's training.
But if your vocal cords are weak, your possibilities are limited.

[ferds]

Thanks, Olga.

Back to screenwriting books...

I've found Syd Field's <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--> Foundations of Screenwriting<!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> very helpful. But, that's just me. I'm know I'm not very good and I'm still learning.

*Edit - Does anybody recommend Hauge? I'm planning to buy it plus the <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--> Oscar-winning Screenwriters on Screenwriters<!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->. I already have Bill Goldman's.

[AnconRanger]

I think some may be overlooking the value of a coach.

People are drawn to writing at all kinds of stages in their lives...and for some with limited resources and connections, the folks that pen the dreaded screenwriting books are their coaches...and they learn from them. Those writers learn things to develop and hone whatever innate talent they have been given.

I've learned much from many if not all of the books I've read. Even though some of them mostly only fill writers with silly ideas of fame and fortune, etc...you just blow by that crap.

I would dare anyone to read John Gardner's book, ON BECOMING A NOVELIST, and say that they learned nothing and it was a waste of their time...and yes, his book applies very well to screenwriting.

[ferds]

Ancon, please...

Okay, I'll buy that one, too, if you say it applies to screenwriting, but that's the last one I'd buy today. Hope that helps improve my writing.

Thanks.

[Jayel the Burnt Out Screenwriter]

Great site, everyone.

I'm slightly surprised I haven't come across Richard Walter's name. Does anyone have any thoughts about his books? I think he shoots pretty straight.

Attending McKee's 3-day seminar, the only thing that bothered me was his slight toward Syd Field. To me, it was unprofessional, and a little unfair. I mean, isn't it possible to learn from everyone. Can't we be as eclectic as we choose? And then, create our own unique system within a structured parameter?

[Jami]

I recommend Hauge.

I also disagree with the premise that writing cannot be taught.

Several folks here have, or are earning, MFAs in screenwriting. I have a bachelor's in journalism.

It's all about structure. You put a news story together differently than a feature. I couldn't write a news story before taking JOUR 201. Once the teacher broke down the inverted pyramid, I could.

There are some writers who fall into the rhythm of structured writing much more easily than others. It doesn't mean that writing can't be taught.

Maybe it's storytelling that can't be taught. You can learn about act breaks, plot points, reversals, etc., but unless you have the God-given ability to come up with a story worth telling, it isn't going to matter that your action lines are pithy or even if you can write subtextual dialogue. If the story isn't there, nothing else matters.

Jami

[creativexec]

Maybe it's semantics, but I do not believe writing can
be taught - only learned.

[reynoldswilloughby]

Read produced scripts, but use unproduced ones as a benchmark. Once you can tell the difference between a genuine blockbuster scribe and your pothead neighbor, you're on your way. I often read poor scripts every now and then to remind myself of what not to do. If you can, get earlier drafts of popular screenplays (sometimes available at your better film schools' library). I recommend early drafts of Groundhog Day to see a bad script become wonderful.

My favorite book is the first one I ever read and is still the only one I recommend: The Tools of Screenwriting by David Howard and Edward Mabley. Of course, I don't recommend that you read it more than once. That would be pushing it.

[green integer]

I must admit I'm not a big fan of "how to's" no matter how clever the title.

A book can tell you how to put together a sentance, paragraph and chapter like Fyodor Dostoevsky, but the macabre energy will be missing. Likewise screenplays...

but, for interest sake has anyone out there come across or read "Scriptwriting Updated" by Linda Aronson. If I was going to recomend one this would be it.

[JakeSchuster aka Ostroff]

I've also recently read Scriptwriting Updated and recommend it. Aronson (a British writer) deals with the more unusual aspects of screenwriting (such as using flashbacks and varying time sequences), and analyzes such recent movies as "Pulp Fiction" and "American Beauty". It's an intelligent, well-written and worthwhile book.

[green integer]

Uhhm, sorry mate she's an Aussie.

Book is published by AFTRS (Australian Film, TV and Radio school) where Jane Campion, Gillian Armstrong, PJ Hogan blah blah blah went.

[RDJ Was Banned]

i tend to think that stories (even when written in screenplay format) are more organic than any of the screenwriting gurus will admit, and that once you have learned formatting and how to tell a story (by both reading great books, watching great movies and plays and writing bad, then mediocre, then good stories yourself) you should let it grow organically.

maybe someone's already said that. i haven't read the whole thread.

[reynoldswilloughby]

How about this...

Read everything you can (screenplays and books on how to write them), then write a few screenplays and books on how to write them. Presto! You're an expert!

There's no such thing as wasted reading time. As a writer, one should read everything one can get. If you can't tell what's helpful and what's not, well, you have other problems, the least of which being "what should I read". If somone recommends it, it probably helped that person. Will it help you? Who knows, take a couple of days, read the book and find out. Whatever you do, read SOMETHING recommended here. People who won't read "How-To" books are people who either have a good thing going and don't want to mess with it, or people who are afraid of going down the wrong path. No-one can MAKE you go down the wrong path. Use your common sense.

Caveat - remember that no one book has all the answers and it's up to you to divine what will help you and what is just plain confusing.

[green integer]

Here here

[Sheik Yurbuty]

During the filming of an important documentary project that I jumped into, I discovered that I didn't have the faintest idea how to write a good story.

I bought a shelf of books and read them. Many were simple and described three-act structure formats and some were truly a waste of time. I plodded through them all and to my pleasant surprise, a few books really brought the overall subject of writing into into a much better focus for me.

The material that helped me the most includes Robert McKee's "Story", Lajos Egri's "The art of dramatic writing", many of John Truby's web articles, and some great articles by Bill Martell (his blue books too, though I didn't read many)

As a producer, I vastly improved my own ability to see WHY some writing is so awful (including all of my own to this day) but I hope that I am better prepared to choose a talented writing team to finish the series that I started.

(I really appreciate this board, by the way)

[EJ Pennypacker]

Hauge's power-base for me, is with character (especially in a romantic setting). And he does this well.

Vogler, is all about the myth/fantasy story telling, and I found his spin on Campbell's work very, very useful regarding format of those types of stories.

Truby has a point about the 'Three Act' falling short if you follow it to a T, but his 22 steps just seems to me like another Vogler 'franchise' (in a bad way tho).

McKee I read so long ago that I find it hard to remember anything about it now...

Trottier I remember reading at the beginning of my learning of the craft, but Denny's HOW NOT TO WRITE A SCREENPLAY is IMO a better tool at 'learning the look' of a script.

EJ

[Tony R]

Now THAT's a thread bump. ;)

[EJ Pennypacker]

I love bumping old threads. lol.

BTW, a good few names lost as you scroll up...

But a good few remain :)

EJ

[Tony R]

Definitely. (I think Hamboogul was funnier when he was BlueParrot.)


Anyway, my favorite sources for screenwriting-related inspiration these days are:

www.artfulwriter.com (http://www.artfulwriter.com) (the blog and the ASK A PRO section of the message board)

www.johnaugust.com (http://www.johnaugust.com)

www.wordplayer.com (http://www.wordplayer.com) (all of the columns and the message board)

I also like David Howard's books (THE TOOLS OF SCREENWRITING and HOW TO BUILD A GREAT SCREENPLAY).

[EJ Pennypacker]

Very useful article on these gurus is here in pdf:

http://www.dramatica.com/downloads/Dramatica-paradigm-differences.pdf

EJ

[WriteByNight]

Thanks for the bump up, EJ. Makes more sense to do this than to start a new thread on the same topic.

In my experiences, most screenwriting books read as dry as a desert. There are so many of them now, I want to vomit everytime I pass by this section in a Barnes & Noble. There are a few books that are worthwhile, but the biggest mistake to expect a magic pill in one of these things. The good ones are more first aid kits at best. I agree that writing can be learned, but I don't know about storytelling. That's much more an innate thing, I believe.

I think Steve summed up this topic best:

Read a bunch of scripts, then read the books. All they are are theories of analysis. You need to get the stories and the structure and the rythyms of good writing pumping through your veins. Then the books just help articulate what you know inside.

If you start with the books and try to slavishly follow them you're more than likely to end up with a "correct" but formulaic script.

[Charli]

I am amazed at how threads come from the dead. I like that list of books, actually saw one of Goldman's out here and thought of buying it, now I think I will. Absorb the info, it's good for you.

[EJ Pennypacker]

I have no idea why, but I guess I asked as a Christmas gift Truby's 22 step book. I was glazing over it last night, and I gotta admit, he was very detailed and articulate in some chapters.

Defo something I'll be reading more of especially for structure and plotting and character design and problem.

EJ

[tucsonray]

Hauge... just my opinion

[Ulysses]

None of the above.

My vote is for William Froug, his screenwriting book is one of the best there is. And one of the few good ones.

[Ralphy W]

Aside from format, there is one other 'valuable' thing you can learn from these guys -- particularly McKee:

How to speak like a development executive.

Best post ever.

Whatever happened to warmgoodness?

[mariot]

Any new book recommendations? The threads I can find are old.

Thanks.

[Telly]

oh crap. here we go again.

[wcmartell]

In a STEEL CAGE MATCH BATTLE TO THE DEATH! 4 go in, but only 1 can come out alive!

[William Kennedy]

They all teach FORMULA and every agent or manager I've ever spoken to has said that writers who write to formulas don't launch careers in this industry.

The readers know the formulas and it is SO boring to read yet another script written to them.

[mariot]

There's a big difference between formula and technique.

The 5 in the title of the thread teach various techniques.

[poptart]

Any new book recommendations?
A couple I have recently read:

"Writing the Romantic Comedy" by Billy Mernit. Thoughtful analysis of history of Romcoms and important features to include in your script. It's a very interesting book even if you aren't writing that genre.

"The Screenwriting Formula" by Rob Tobin. Snappy and highly readable, this book is unashamed about presenting a formula. As Tobin says, you must learn the formula before you can become skilled enough to break it. He is critical of high profile films, like Titanic, which are not formulaic enough to satisfy the storytelling paradigm.

I've just started reading "Save the Cat" by Blake Snyder - so far so good, but I'll keep you posted.

[mariot]

Thanks. I read the first book and the third book. I will see if the library has the second.

[Mark Somers]

"Three Uses of the Knife" by David Mamet