Your opinion on the protag in Maria Full of Grace

[iembalm]

I happen to think she is one of the most loathsome characters to ever carry a movie.

Spoilers.

Abandons her (ungrateful) family.
Leaves a decent (if boring) job in an impoverished country because she "didn't get along with her boss."
Decides to become a drug mule for the cash.
Smuggles a huge amount of narcotics in her body, which is also carrying a fetus.
Deceives the sister of a fellow mule who has died/been murdered, in order to have a place of refuge from drug dealers.
Uses the money from her drugs to set up shop in America, having returned them to the owners, who of course will poison hundreds of willing addicts with them.
Chooses to stay in the U.S. as an illegal alien, without much in the way of prospects besides a similar job and situation from the one she left.

I can't wait to hear this character lauded by the Oscar presenter when Catalina Sandino Moreno's Best Actress nod is announced.

I'm not looking to get into a political pissing contest; I just think it very curious how words like "brave" are being tossed around in light of how this character is actually presented in the movie.

[refriedwhiskey]

SPOILERS

Wow, did we see the same movie?

She doesn't blithely quit her job. She asks to go to the bathroom because she's sick. The boss won't let her. Which leads to her yakking on the roses, which sets the boss off. (In fact, wasn't she fired?)

She doesn't agree to smuggle drugs so she can buy a new wardrobe. She does it because she needs money to support her worthless, ungrateful mother, sister, and sister's baby. Not to mention her own baby.

She doesn't really abandon her family. She just chooses not to go back to them. She chooses to stay where her baby can have a much better life, like the one her friend's sister has. And I think it's pretty strongly implied that when she has money, she'll still be wiring some home to her family, even though they're ungrateful sh|ts.

She briefly deceives her friend's sister because she's afraid the drug dealers will kill her. But she does come clean and tell the truth.

Uses the money from her drugs to set up shop in America, having returned them to the owners, who of course will poison hundreds of willing addicts with them.
Key phrase there: willing addicts. She's not forcing these people to use drugs, and if they don't use the ones she brought, they'll find it somewhere else. She's supposed to care more about these anonymous junkies than herself, her baby, and her family back home? If she doesn't, she's a bad person?

Chooses to stay in the U.S. as an illegal alien, without much in the way of prospects besides a similar job and situation from the one she left.
No, her situation won't be remotely similar to the one she left behind, because now she's in a big city in the U.S. instead of a tiny hole in Colombia. In her position, given the opportunity, you can't know you wouldn't make the same choice for yourself and your new child.

Seriously. I can't believe you saw the same movie I did. I think you've got the character almost 100 percent wrong. I don't know if I'd call her brave, but I think this 17-year-old girl found herself in an impossible situation in a tiny village in Colombia, and I don't think she did anything that justifies calling her a bad person, let alone "one of the most loathsome characters to ever carry a movie."

[iembalm]

Just the kind of discussion I'd hoped for, refried.

But this part....

I think it's pretty strongly implied that when she has money, she'll still be wiring some home to her family, even though they're ungrateful sh|ts.

It's only implied in one scene, when the sister talks about what a great feeling she had wiring home money the first time. I got the impression that this was an add-on to make viewers think that might happen.

And yes, the people will consume the drugs willingly, but her bringing them in funds the industry in her country that is part of the reason for the conditions there. And I disagree that the "key" part of the equation is that the people who use her drugs do so willingly. A person who gains from, and with the knowledge of, the misery of that many others, is not sympathetic to me.

[Hairy Lime]

Maria was hot.

I found her extremely sympathetic for many of the reasons outlined by refried.

And because she was hot.

[Camera Obscura]

I for one, am grateful for Maria's courage, because if it wasn't for people like her I would't have my daily fix. Gracias!

[JMather]

Had same reaction as iembalm for much the same reasons. Saw it on DVD and my wife stopped watching about 1/2 way into it because of its unsympathetic lead.

[zuzuII]

Would she have seemed so unsympathetic to you if she'd been a man, or would you have not noticed? Curious.

[JMather]

It wouldn't have made any difference. Had she (or he) been a person who had no option but to agree to carry drugs - to support her starving family, to get a needed operation for her dying mother, to feed orphan children, etc. - she/he would have been far more sympathetic. By the title, I assumed going in that she was a woman who was "full of grace" who did something desperate in order to achieve a greater good. That wasn't the case.

I didn't feel there was much of a character arc. Had she started as she did and became a better person along the way or had she started "full of grace" and lost it during her travels, she would have been more interesting to me - even if more or less sympathetic.

[refriedwhiskey]

It's only implied in one scene, when the sister talks about what a great feeling she had wiring home money the first time. I got the impression that this was an add-on to make viewers think that might happen.
Well, duh. Sorry, but that scene didn't happen by accident. It was in there to show that this woman Maria so badly wanted to be like enjoyed sending money home to her family -- so we would know that Maria would do the same thing.

Why else would it be in there?

I guess they could've hit us over the head with a scene where Maria went to the Western Union office to wire money home. They could also have hit us over the head with a scene where Maria says "I just can't go back to my little village in Colombia. I can't have my baby there when America's medical facilities are so much better. I can't raise my baby there when she can be a naturalized U.S. citizen and have a million opportunities I never had." And then maybe more people would've understood why she stayed in America.

Or they could've done what JMather suggested and say she had to get money for her mother's operation (or maybe some less cliched reason) instead of just having her think first of her own baby. But guys -- this isn't a Lifetime movie of the week. It's subtler than that, and much better for it.

[DasGreatRedShark]

Perhaps a movie about proud, ethical, upstanding American citizens doing proud, ethical, upstanding American things would be more to your liking.

Protagonists aren't always heroes, and heroes themselves can be antiheroes to varying degrees. Not everything in this world is black and white and what is "loathsome" to some can look differently to others standing in a different location/country/social strata. Just like one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist (and one man's war hero is another man's murderer), the war on drugs looks far different to a poor Columbian girl without options than it does to an American.

Movies about people getting swept up into the global narcotics web for a variety of real and complicated reasons - something that happens thousands of times a day all over the world - are obviously for the birds, and those who pull off inspired acting work in said movies aren't worthy of reward.

[refriedwhiskey]

Well put, Shark.

Part of the movie's whole point was how the drug trade drags in people who simply have no other options. Maria didn't "decide to become a drug mule for the cash," for god's sake -- she did it because that was the only way out for an uneducated, unemployed, broke, pregnant teenage girl in a tiny Colombian village.

Interesting that we've seen countless movies like Blow and Traffic, which feature lead characters who really do get into the drug trade for money and thrills -- and yet this 17-year-old Colombian girl gets labeled "one of the most loathsome characters to ever carry a movie."

Maybe if she was less brown....

[noh1]

Rock on, Sharky... well said.

[DasGreatRedShark]

Scarface was just a wacky, misunderstood party boy. Maria is a loathsome harpy out to destroy her unborn child and poor, hapless American weekend warriors.

[Hairy Lime]

Nobody else thought she was hot?

[Camera Obscura]

She is very hot. She's toned up a bit too since then, so he's even hotter now.

[Authorized]

She is very hot. She's toned up a bit too since then, so he's even hotter now.

Ideally, she could "fill up" a bit with a larger rack...

[iembalm]

Maria didn't "decide to become a drug mule for the cash," for god's sake -- she did it because that was the only way out for an uneducated, unemployed, broke, pregnant teenage girl in a tiny Colombian village.

These are limitations the movie tries, but fails, to demonstrate. I don't accept the "only way out" rationale for lawless behavior in the United States, either. Sure, a single mother with a limited skill set in a patriarchal, Catholic nation has it tough. But considering what she risked, both for herself and her fetus, and what she helped to perpetuate by doing so....her flaws outweighed her plight and her choices. Hence, unsympathetic. And not, by my reckoning, meant to be an antihero, either.

And please, if any of you are going to imply racism, sexism, or any other bias (and full disclosure: I am white, male, and grew up in a suburb), have a little more courage and more plainly address the issue. "Maybe if she was less brown?" Please.

[refriedwhiskey]

These are limitations the movie tries, but fails, to demonstrate. I don't accept the "only way out" rationale for lawless behavior in the United States, either.
What you continue to miss is that Colombia is not the United States.

Sure, a single mother with a limited skill set in a patriarchal, Catholic nation has it tough. But considering what she risked, both for herself and her fetus, and what she helped to perpetuate by doing so....
You can't hold a child in rural Colombia to your white, suburban standards. Maria sees a way out of her problem, she thinks it's the only way out, and she lives in a country where the government itself is complicit in the drug trade.

Look, she's not a shining example of morality and courage the start of the movie. But for some people in some countries, morality and courage aren't even choices. Maria makes a dangerous decision because she's desperate. That doesn't make her "one of the most loathsome characters to ever carry a movie." It makes her a teenager in a bad place, literally and figuratively.

And she redeems herself in the end. At its heart, her motivations are really all about her unborn baby. That's why the movie's called Maria Full of Grace -- it's drawing an (ironic perhaps) parallel with the most famous mother in the history of her culture, the mother of Jesus.

SPOILER WARNING






Before the movie even starts, the title itself tells you how important the baby is to the character and her arc. She takes the mule job because she desperately needs money for her family, and that need just got deeper since she's got a baby of her own on the way.

She risks her own life and the baby's life by taking the job, because at this point she's thinking more about solving her money problems than about the baby's health. But the baby actually saves her from being caught by customs. She's pregnant; they can't X-ray her, so they have to let her go.

Later, she sees the sister of the girl who died, who is also from Colombia. Looks at her life. Realizes how much better her own life -- and her baby's life -- could be if she had the courage to emulate this woman. And while she's homeless and jobless and in danger in this strange, huge city where she has no real friends, she goes to an obstetrician to get an exam -- because she's more concerned about her baby than herself, and she wants to take advantage of the superior medical care available to her while she's in the U.S.

That's a big clue for you right there. She's turned a corner. She's really thinking about her baby now and what's best for it. Nobody says to her "Gosh, Maria, you've really turned a corner now that you're actually putting your baby first." But it's there in her actions.

And that's why she decides to stay in the U.S. For her baby. It's not the easiest thing she could do. She could just fly back home with the mule money, which would probably go a long way in her village. She could carry her baby to term and give birth with her family around her.

Instead, she elects to stay in a city where she knows no one. She doesn't speak the language. All her friends and family are back home in the only village and the only country she's ever known, and she may never see them again. She has the courage to stay because of what it'll mean not just to herself, but to her baby.

That's her arc, and there's her redemption.

As for Maria being an illegal alien -- give me a break. I don't recall anyone saying the family of illegal Irish immigrants from "In America" were loathsome.

And please, if any of you are going to imply racism
I wasn't really implying it. I was inferring it.

[whitenavel]

I bet she'll look superhot at the Oscars.

[refriedwhiskey]

Goes widdout sayin', yeah.

[iembalm]

Here's my final word.

I don't accept that morality or courage weren't choices for this particular protagonist, given the circumstances that the filmmakers established. It's also a questionable statement to make about people in another country or culture, that they only have access to the lower parts of their natures.

Her illegal status isn't the issue for me. She came in under a visa. She decided to stay illegally. But she brought drugs into the country, and after her experiences on the run she chose to give them back to the dealers in order to save her family back home. She made a choice there. I can't say I wouldn't have made the same one, but it seemed that the only factors she weighed were her own and her family's safety, and the money she would receive.

I don't disqualify anyone from making judgements on another's decisions merely because of their own, different experiences. If you want to "infer" a racist bent from that due to where and how I grew up, that's your right, but I think it says more about you than me. Judging by what was shown to me in this film about her situation at home, I don't think she is morally excused due to a lack of choices.

I think that if you have read my posts over the years, my record of support for the oppressed is pretty well-established. This protagonists arc didn't work for me, and I didn't see redemption in the fact that she began making choices based on her baby rather than herself. A measure of awareness that extended a bit past her own selfishness, yes, but not enough to outweigh the damage the initial Maria did by choosing to bring drugs to her new country.

[Hairy Lime]

I think all we can really infer about iembalm is that he doesn't like drugs.

[refriedwhiskey]

It's also a questionable statement to make about people in another country or culture, that they only have access to the lower parts of their natures.
That's not at all what I was saying, but given how you've misunderstood Maria and her situation, and given your apparent ignorance of the differences between life in America and life in a place like Colombia, I'm not surprised you interpreted it that way.

Her illegal status isn't the issue for me.
Really? It was when you made your original post calling her "one of the most loathsome characters to ever carry a movie." If you've changed your mind about that aspect of the character, at least, I'm glad.

I can't say I wouldn't have made the same one, but it seemed that the only factors she weighed were her own and her family's safety, and the money she would receive.
OF COURSE she put the safety of her family and herself (and her unborn child) above a bunch of strangers who CHOOSE to use drugs! Anyone who wouldn't make that same choice really would be loathsome.

If you want to "infer" a racist bent from that due to where and how I grew up,
How could I have inferred it from where and how you grew up? I didn't know that until you told me. I inferred it from your post. From your inability to see Maria's side of the story and understand the position she was in. (Your inclusion of her illegal alien status as part of what makes her so loathsome in your eyes was also a major factor, but you seem to have abandoned that now, so that's good at least.)

This protagonists arc didn't work for me, and I didn't see redemption in the fact that she began making choices based on her baby rather than herself. A measure of awareness that extended a bit past her own selfishness, yes, but not enough to outweigh the damage the initial Maria did by choosing to bring drugs to her new country.
Well, then, I was right. We really didn't see the same movie.

[refriedwhiskey]

I think all we can really infer about iembalm is that he doesn't like drugs.
:lol

I don't like drugs, either, Hairy. I don't like the drug trade and what it does to people here in the U.S. I don't like how it presents itself as the only way out for young people who feel trapped and desperate here in the States and in places like Colombia.

But I wouldn't call anyone loathsome for putting their family's safety over the safety of a bunch of strangers who choose to use drugs. And if you would, I don't wanna know you. Know what I mean?

[NikeeGoddess]

These are limitations the movie tries, but fails, to demonstrate. I don't accept the "only way out" rationale for lawless behavior in the United States, either.

well, this wasn't a hollywood flick. it had more international appeal. we are one of the few countries were the same people outwardly make statements of hatred toward us and secretly want to live here so badly that they'll do just about anything to do so. many americans just can't identify with that b/c we have it so good.

[cluckyburger]

i finally saw this movie last night
and just read the great debate on this thread
and i agree with hairy
that maria is hot

[Authorized]

I've been holding my comments about "Maria The Mule". I saw it some time ago, and I was appalled that the subject matter of this movie was highly praised by the Hollywood elite. Well maybe not that surprised. This movie glorifies illegal drug running...period. No matter how much you sympathize with the good looking Latina, it was about moving illegal drugs across the border to perpetuate the horrendous drug problem here in the USA.

At least "Traffic" told the true story of brave DEA and Mexican polistas trying to stop the filth that traffics drugs across the border.

[Hairy Lime]

Jeezus, Authorized. Drug running was not glorified. This wasn't Formular 51 or some 80s action flick. This was an independent film exploring a subculture that has been created in 3rd world countries by the U.S. war on drugs. Nothing more, nothing less. Get off your f-ckin' high horse for once and actually pay objective attention to the films you watch rather than looking for a way to make a politico-religious statement based on your seemingly boundless ignorance.

[The White Album]

This movie glorifies illegal drug running...period.

Agreed. I don't know how many times someone has seen this movie and afterwards said to me, "That's the life for me. I can't wait to swallow 62 pellets full of heroin, take an international flight, then sh-t it all out for $5,000."

[Insanity In A Jar]

:rolling:

[refriedwhiskey]

:rolling: White Album!

Who's surprised by Authy's opinion of this movie? Can we get a quick show of hands?

[insanegenius]

You unsympathetic americans. America is the best place in the world to live, why do you think people risk their lives coming over here? Everybody don't live the "Leave it to Beaver" lifestyle even though everyone wish that they could. All you people judging other people's predicaments wouldn't last a minute if you had to grow up as they did so don't judge. If you ever ran a red light then you're a criminal even in the bible it says a sin is a sin. Maria was a mule but it ain't like she dreamed of being one growing up. She did what she thought she had to do to get out of miserable conditions.

[Authorized]

She did what she thought she had to do to get out of miserable conditions.

The sex slave trade would have been more sanitary...

[BottomlessCup]

The sex slave trade would have been more sanitary...

What? Sanitary?

You do understand what sex is, right? What sex slaves have to do over and over with strange, disgusting men? You realize that they don't get paid and generally, never escape the brothel?

You hate drugs. Got it. But, Jesus, man...

[refriedwhiskey]

You unsympathetic americans.
Hey, way to stereotype everybody in this thread, there -- when maybe only two people have actually shown themselves to be unsympathetic to the character.

You generalizing foreigners....

[insanegenius]

Hey, way to stereotype everybody in this thread, there -- when maybe only two people have actually shown themselves to be unsympathetic to the character.

You generalizing foreigners....

If the post didn't pertain to you then keep it moving. Obviously my post was aimed at those who were being unsympathetic. Go drink some whiskey and STFU.

[tomasz1985]

Great thred. I sympathized with Maria and found it kind of funny that someone in this thread stopped watching the movie with his wife because they though Maria did wrong. Put yourself in her position.

I love this movie. It´s very visual and simple and the actress is great in her role. One of my favourite movies.

[refriedwhiskey]

Go drink some whiskey and STFU.
You rude Europeans.