Why does the issue of Theme draw so much interest?

[Farnsworth]

Although the "Plot vs. Theme" thread has been closed, I wonder why the issue of Theme draws so much interest? On other forums, the question or issue of Theme draws great interest. Why? Any thoughts?

[Joe Unidos]

Honestly, I think it’s because theme is the only element of a screenplay that can be completely missing from a script and still have that script considered by its writer (or others) to be done. It’s also the only element that can simply be happened upon, and it can be completely open to the interpretation of the reader.

[Joaneasley]

Also because there are people who don't get it, feel they don't need to pay any attention to it, or feel it's a crock, and because there are other people who feel it's their secret weapon and you're missing something if you don't use it. Kind of like a discussion between the religious and atheists/agnostics. Or between people who do and don't outline. Both sides are invested in their POV.

[amandag]

I first heard of theme when I was a pug-faced child, scooping man-sized piles of horse-droppings into blacksmith fires before I walked my typical 87-miles to school. That's how the working folks got 'high' in those days--sniffing the stench of animal waste. It got em so high, that my father, the blacksmith, never realized that by the time I walked the 87 miles to school, school was long over.

He said, "it 'themes' to me, child, that you've no direction." You see, he'd finally tracked my route through the snow and found that the 87 miles were walked not in a straight line, but in a growing outward spiral from my starting point, spinning around and around until my path widened far enough to open the school doors. I got more exercise than my nobby legs could ever need, but not an ounce of common sense feed my bird-sized brain.

That night, after realizing that the fumes were limiting my learning, my father turned out the blacksmith fire for good. To him, his child's education was far more important than his morning huff. The next day, I walked to school in an unfettered and elated outward spiral, this time covering a 95 mile spread before reaching the paddlocked school gates. I sat down in the snow with a satisfied sigh, watching the glittering stars above me. "It 'themes' to me," I thought, "my dad really lovthes me."

[Gillyflower Cooms]

It's subjective in alot of ways that story isn't...so you can argue endlessly about it.

[magicman35]

Back in the middle ages when I was in film school I can remember my then screenwriting prof (a very successful A-lister) compliment me at length on my script. "So well written, so brilliantly structured," yada yada. Then he hit me with the sucker punch. "But what's it ABOUT?"

It took me a number of years to really understand what he was getting at.

A lot of screenwriting gurus don't help because they reduce theme down to some easily digestible little homily.

The discussion also gets confusing because story can either reveal theme or vice-versa.

(BTW the other thread was terrific because we really got into Jeff's creative process which, as he pointed out more eloquently than I, had a number of overlapping starting points and was far from linear)

Here's where I am now with regard to theme. I just finished a novel, and I really didn't have a clue as to the theme until the end of the first draft. But the theme elevated it from a very well written and crafted thriller to something with the capacity to completely transform my career. It also changed my world-view with regard to a number of issues that I hadn't really taken the time to reflect on that deeply before.

So, theme? If someone doesn't get it, there ain't a lot of point trying to explain why it's so important.

[twk69045]

Let's not forget the discussion was started by wilson and when wilsoneads is slapped on a thread, people come out of the woodwork. High school girls take their modern day bedazzled cell phones to flock here and post messages. The president puts down files on Iraq skirmishes to post. Homeless people pull out their well hidden laptops and flock to Starbucks for the free wifi. Hell, even amanda pulls her head away from chasing the dragon with animal waste. That's the power wilson's threads have. Can't be helped.

[sc111]

Let's not forget the discussion was started by wilson and when wilsoneads is slapped on a thread, people come out of the woodwork. High school girls take their modern day bedazzled cell phones to flock here and post messages. The president puts down files on Iraq skirmishes to post. Homeless people pull out their well hidden laptops and flock to Starbucks for the free wifi. Hell, even amanda pulls her head away from chasing the dragon with animal waste. That's the power wilson's threads have. Can't be helped.

This made me smile - you know how to evoke images. :)

[Biohazard]

Theme gives story a purpose.

[jkk808]

Let's not forget the discussion was started by wilson and when wilsoneads is slapped on a thread, people come out of the woodwork. High school girls take their modern day bedazzled cell phones to flock here and post messages. The president puts down files on Iraq skirmishes to post. Homeless people pull out their well hidden laptops and flock to Starbucks for the free wifi. Hell, even amanda pulls her head away from chasing the dragon with animal waste. That's the power wilson's threads have. Can't be helped.

Too much black.

[THEUGLYDUCKLING]

"For anyone who wants to look beneath its action surface, The Dark Knight proves that a movie can be a huge hit because of theme, not in spite of it. The Dark Knight is the closest thing to a fictional exploration of moral philosophy to come out of Hollywood in a long time, and that includes No Country for Old Men. Amazingly, writers Jonathan Nolan, Christopher Nolan, and David Goyer create this complex moral expression on the foundation of superhero action crime genre." truby

here's an example of what theme means to a writer and movie goer.

[TwoBrad Bradley]

Theme gives story a purpose.
Theme gives the screenwriter a purpose.

[roscoegino]

It's subjective in alot of ways that story isn't...so you can argue endlessly about it.

Agreed. The more subjective the screenplay element, the easier it is to argue its purpose. That's why WE SEE threads are so dang long, and why twenty people in a room can argue which line of dialogue is funniest when the elephant in the corner is the mediocre story.

[TwoBrad Bradley]

You simply CAN'T write a story without a theme--no matter how hard you try.
There's the problem.

It's not about stories with a theme verses stories without theme.

It's about the characters "living" the theme - demonstrating the theme through the way they change - verses stories where none of the characters change.

[amandag]

Hell, even amanda pulls her head away from chasing the dragon with animal waste.

:rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

:| Seriously. That never happens.

:| Never.

[twk69045]

:bounce: I stand corrected. By a waste head no less. Who was probably wasted at the time.

[amandag]

No, no, no, good sir. And no.

<insert picture of my adorable dog here>

back to thread.

[jonpiper]

It's subjective in alot of ways that story isn't...so you can argue endlessly about it.

It's not only subjective, it's abstract. Elements such as structure and plot are more concrete, more easy to describe.

Theme is not only difficult to define, many of us disagree on its definition. Then there's the problem of when theme schould enter the process of writing a screenplay. And of course there is the debate about what the theme of a given story is.

Theme is a concept we can sink our teeth into.:)

[DavidK]

"It 'themes' to me," I thought, "my dad really lovthes me."

A young woman has a medical exam with her doctor and he listens to her chest.
Doctor: Big breath.
Woman: Yeth and I'm only theventeen.

Sorry.

Theme - I usually think of it as what the story is really about, the meaning of what's happening.

I think theme is discussed so often because it's the least tangible of elements yet so important. Writers find theme in different ways; some find it by accident, some begin the whole writing process with a theme, and the rest somewhere in between.

Themes are like neutrinos, those invisible particles with no charge, but they are everywhere all the time and impossible to get a good measure of.

Because theme is less tangible, writers naturally feel insecure about how to find it and how to employ it. It can't be written into a script in the way that action or dialogue can, because theme is a consequence of the chemistry of the script. Even writers who begin with theme still have to conjure a story which reveals theme, but most of the time this means never referring directly to the theme or phrasing it metaphorically.

As I write this, I recall that Stanley Kubrick's films were very rich thematically and he points to his themes frequently throughout his films. Here's some dialog which cleverly reveals a theme in Full Metal Jacket, taken from an original shooting script which I don't have to hand but here's the sequence going by memory:

Gunnery Sergeant Hartmann is lecturing marine recruits on shooting skills.

HARTMANN
Any of you ladies know who Lee Harvey Oswald was?

PRIVATE SNOWBALL
Sir, he was that gunman who shot president Kennedy from the book suppository building, sir.

Laughter.

HARTMANN
All right, knock it off. That's right. Oswald got off three rounds in six seconds with an old Italian bolt action rifle and scored two direct hits, including a head shot. Where do you ladies think he learned to shoot like that?

ALL
Sir, in the marines, sir.

HARTMANN
In the marines, that's right, and before you people leave my island every one of you will be able to do the same thing.

The next line takes place in the audience's head:
'Do what same thing, shoot a president?'

Because one of the key themes in FMJ is that if you turn men into killers, expect them to kill.

In those few short lines - written by Michael Herr and Kubrick - a huge amount of information is shared, including the theme of turning men into killers. Not only that, Kubrick highlights the difficulties in believing the Oswald lone-gunman theory by pointing to the likelihood of Oswald being able to achieve what he did, i.e. get off those rounds from an old bolt action rifle in just a few seconds and score two direct hits. Oswald had to be more than a gunman, he had to have extraordinary marksmanship. And on top of it all, Kubrick makes it funny, so we are caught laughing at something which has chilling implications.

Kubrick could also deliver theme on-the-nose and get away with it. Barry Lyndon, again a film with more than one theme, uses a narrator. The story of an 18th century rascal's rise and fall, the final passage in the movie:

NARR
Good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

Death, the great equalizer.

And one of the funniest of all from Dr Strangelove:

PRESIDENT MUFFLEY
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room.

Theme draws so much interest because when you get it right, your movie instantly moves up a few notches because theme gets inside our heads and hearts. Theme is about more than just what's happening to the characters, it's about something deep that affects us all, something vital to the human condition. Any writer lucky enough to incorporate profound theme into an engaging, enthralling screen story has hit the jackpot. Theme remains ethereal, but our story-telling instincts tell us it's important and we search for ways to master it.

[JeffLowell]

A steaming pile of sh!t on the sidewalk can have a Theme--especially if it's captured in a black-and-white photograph, framed, and put in an art gallery exhibition. :D It might even be a profound Theme, too, depending on the persuasive skill of the commentator or critic.

Boski, I'm afraid I can't subscribe to the send out a piece of sh!t and pray that someone else finds a theme in it school of screenwriting. But I wish you luck. ;)

[sc111]

Boski, I'm afraid I can't subscribe to the send out a piece of sh!t and pray that someone else finds a theme in it school of screenwriting. But I wish you luck. ;)

Whoa. Snap.

[DavidK]

There's latent thematic assertions and messages in literally everything. A steaming pile of sh!t on the sidewalk can have a Theme--especially if it's captured in a black-and-white photograph, framed, and put in an art gallery exhibition.
I hope I didn't just light another fuse...

On the contrary, I think you just extinghuished one.
You're confusing theme with pretense. Really.

[twk69045]

Who wants to go catch an Andy Warhol series?

[jonpiper]

Good God! Posting aTheme thread on DD is like waving a red flag in the bullring.

Boski, you may have a point. But that pile of **** script better be preceded by a quality logline.

[amandag]

:A young woman has a medical exam with her doctor and he listens to her chest.
Doctor: Big breath.
Woman: Yeth and I'm only theventeen.

Sorry.




Ith okay. :rolling: :D

[Popcorntreect]

I was trying to come up with movies that didn't have themes. So here are some of the ones I came up with:

Traffic - The message boils down to "drugs are bad...mmmkay" The film is about how the war on drugs effects everyone involved. But the theme is...?

Crash - Same as above except substitute "drugs" with "racism".

Damn, I had another one but can't think of it anymore.

Theme is important and subjective. The other thread "Plot vs. Theme" kinda got derailed but it should never be plot vs. theme. Your plot should enhance the theme. If The Dark Knight had had a different theme it would've also had a different plot.

That's my two and a half cents.

[twk69045]

I think the meaning of Traffic, much like Syriana, is to expose the grey zone. Not just to say drugs are bad but that there are different perspectives and backgrounds to the drug world and not all of them are the typified evils of society.

[ScriptShadow]

I agree. Questioning the relevance of theme on this board is like posting an abortion thread on a pro-life forum. I've learned that it's really not a smart thing to do.

It doesn't mean I won't do it again though. :)

[hscope]

I agree. Questioning the relevance of theme on this board is like posting an abortion thread on a pro-life forum. I've learned that it's really not a smart thing to do.

It doesn't mean I won't do it again though. :)

Don't worry. This is just another variation on a theme.

[JeffLowell]

Please go back and check that debate and I think you'll see clearly that I'm right.

This should be your sig.

[JeffLowell]

I've just had a revelation: all the scripts that were tossed were because the author didn't purposefully incorporate a theme.

[twk69045]

A park without a theme is just grass and trees and benches.

[odetotud]

I've just had a revelation: all the scripts that were tossed were because the author didn't purposefully incorporate a theme.

lol

[sc111]

You argued pointedly that crap sells all the time. Claimed that more than half the stuff that comes across your desk is "keep the logline, throw out the rest, page-one rewrite..." crap. Yes? ;)

Oh - how did I miss that thread? Link?

[dpaterso]

A park without a theme is just grass and trees and benches.
:rolling:

Sometimes that's exactly what a park is supposed to be.

No, wait. Maybe that's what you meant.

Love these threads.

-Derek

[Adam Isaac]

A writer sits alone at a desk. This is the time for what? For individual achievement. There he sits alone. But in the field, what? Part-of-a-theme. Themework... Reads, thinks, scribbles, writes. Part of one big theme. Writes himself the live-long day, Stephen King, Ernest Hemmingway, and so on. If his theme don't field... what is he? You follow me? No one! Sunny day, the theaters are full of people. What does he have to say? I'm goin' out there for myself. But... I get nowhere unless the theme wins.

[joe9alt]

As jonpiper basically already said, I think the issue of theme is captivating to screenwriters because it’s hard to put a finger on it and it obviously can and does vary in meaning depending on which screenwriting is doing the defining.

I kept quiet during most of the previous Theme/Plot thread because honestly it was a lot for me to digest and I had to really think about where I stood on theme.

Up to this point, I’ve honestly consciously focused on character and plot and relied on my solid execution of both of those aspects to lead to an interesting theme kind of naturally or organically.

At the same time, JeffLowell, when pointing out that arriving at a compelling theme organically is possible, brought up the basic question of “why not think about it” if you acknowledge it’s importance.

I do acknowledge its importance so Jeff’s question/advice has resonated with me.

Even more so because I know I will get to a point where I will be in a room with producers or executives and they will ask me to talk about theme and my ability to potentially land an assignment may hinge partly on my ability to do so intelligently.

I hate to open a can of worms here but I’m still confused about what boski is/was saying….is he saying that theme doesn’t exist (I’d disagree)…is he saying that it occurs organically if a writer focuses sufficiently on character and plot (I’d agree)….or is he saying it exists but isn’t important (I’d disagree)????

[Tony R]

I don't want to put words in Boski's mouth, but based on what I've seen of the debate(s), I think he's saying that it DOES exist but is not anywhere near as important as premise and plot when it comes to what determines whether or not an aspiring screenwriter will sell a spec script.

He's not talking about taking meetings or pitching or landing assignments or building a fanbase or forging a career; he's talking solely about selling the first spec, which he considers to be the primary goal for any aspiring screenwriter. (He has also said that he believes most aspiring screenwriters would be happy with just one spec sale, even if it never led to anything else.)

Boski can, of course, correct me if I have misinterpreted his position.

[Biohazard]

It's not about stories with a theme verses stories without theme.

It's about the characters "living" the theme - demonstrating the theme through the way they change...

Bingo.

Writers just have to remember to support both sides of their theme and not just one.
Theme should be an argument.

Also, I don't see how anyone can have a hard time understanding what theme is.
Theme is what is learned by the end of the story.

[Ralphy W]

To me, it's clear that Premsie and Plot are the sexiness and the sizzle that's triggering the buyer's lust for ownership.

You should see my latest script in her satin negligee.

Hubba-hubba!

[JoeNYC]

IT'S ALIVE!

Theme has been resurrected from the dead. Oh my, the horror.

Awhile back there was a thread that had plot vs. character, which Deux had the boski role with the primacy of plot. I didn't get involved in that thread because it's a ridiculous debate.

I barely got involved in the plot vs. theme debate for the same reason. I only got somewhat involved in the plot vs. theme thread because boski went on about the unimportance of theme, which I feel isn't beneficial to a beginner's growth as a writer.

boski says, "Plot clearly takes primacy over Theme in determining what makes a spec script sell. ... I still can't get the most entrenched opposition to concede the point."

-- Throughout the theme thread boski has been persistent in getting Jeff to admit that plot is more important than theme.

Jeff's position is that theme enriches the plot making the story more attractive to the players that would get it sold and made, thus increasing your chances.

boski's thinking more on superficial level while Jeff's thinking on a more richer and deeper level.

Sure, you can have an entertaining action film going from situation to situation with no meaningful theme, or a coherent one and it could be a commercial success, but it'll be forgettable.

If you could weave a powerful theme throughout your story that'll enrich it and give it depth, where it'll be a critical and commercial success, memorable for thousands of years, why wouldn't you?

It's easier to concentrate on plot and structure and hope that a powerful, coherent theme would evolve organically?

This is lazy thinking and impatience working. Of course it's gonna be hard for a beginner to get a handle on theme, but don't just ignore it. It'll take time and patience, but in the end, the big picture... sort of speak; it'll be worth it.

Francis Ford Coppola mentioned that his theme (small, independent movie) was invisibility, so he CONSCIOUSLY had his female protagonist wear a see trough raincoat in one scene.

Do you truly believe you could come up with details like this without consciously thinking about and implementing your theme?

Theme is an important element that'll make your stories rich and powerful, i.e. plot, character, dialogue, images, etc.

Don't be afraid of it. Embrace it. Learn it. Understand it.

For thousands of years people have analyzed stories and put their elements in order of importance:

Plot
Character
Theme
Dialogue

This doesn't mean for you to ignore an element for the sake of another. They all work together to make a powerful and entertaining story. Give them all your best.

boski believes that theme is the least important. He believes if you focus on plot, theme would practically take care of itself.

Do you really want to take boski's advice and be ignorant about theme?

I have a teen romantic comedy. The plot is about a guy who falls for the classic beauty, but doesn't realize his bizarre best friend is his true love.

Familiar plot, right?

It was a semi-finalist in the Scriptapaloza competition. It was in the top 124 out of 4,300 entries.

Do you think it was because of the plot element in the story that boski thinks so highly of?

Or, could it be because of how plot, character, theme and dialogue all worked well together to make it a satisfying and entertaining read for the reader?

[joe9alt]

It's easier to concentrate on plot and structure and hope that a powerful, coherent theme would evolve organically?

For the record I said plot and character.



This is lazy thinking and impatience working. Of course it's gonna be hard for a beginner to get a handle on theme, but don't just ignore it. It'll take time and patience, but in the end, the big picture... sort of speak; it'll be worth it.

Francis Ford Coppola mentioned that his theme (small, independent movie) was invisibility, so he CONSCIOUSLY had his female protagonist wear a see trough raincoat in one scene.

If that is weaving your theme in, I'll pass. That's pretty lame to me. I don't care if Jesus did it. It's lame.


Do you truly believe you could come up with details like this without consciously thinking about and implementing your theme?

Nope. Never in a million years would I ever come up with a detail like that to insert in my script thankfully. That's like somebody saying, "my theme is about the importance of family so I'll make my male lead wear a Partridge Family t-shirt in one scene." Sorry. Not for me.

I do believe that one can have a powerful theme in a script without consciously focusing on it and thinking about it as long as the necessary emphasis is put on plot and character.



I have a teen romantic comedy. The plot is about a guy who falls for the classic beauty, but doesn't realize his bizarre best friend is his true love.

Familiar plot, right?

It was a semi-finalist in the Scriptapaloza competition. It was in the top 124 out of 4,300 entries.

Do you think it was because of the plot element in the story that boski thinks so highly of?

Or, could it be because of how plot, character, theme and dialogue all worked well together to make it a satisfying and entertaining read for the reader?

Well, JoeNYC, this revelation changes my entire way of thinking. I mean gosh, golly you were a Scriptapalooza semi-finalist???? Why didn't you say so in the first place?

Ya know what? I take all of the above back. I now believe there is no way you could arrive at a powerful theme organically by focusing on plot and character.

I now believe you would have to think really, really hard.

I envision you with your eyes closed tightly and your index fingers massaging your temples while you came up with the theme for the above referenced script. :cool:

[joe9alt]

Good god, am I on Boski's side? :eek:

[Ire]

Resonance.

Movies like Speed and Pirates of The Carribean as examples rely less on theme than on character and plot and pyrotechnics. POTC has more theme, ruminations about identity and heroism.

For screenwriting especially in genres that are more highly plot-driven, I think theme is found through writing multiple drafts. Plot and character are executed in early drafts, and theme is next. I can't imagine writing a story that didn't have a theme, but that's me.

Casablanca, The Godfather, Raging Bull, Gladiator, Dark Knight, Training Day, Groundhog Day, Star Wars (the O.G. - through ESB). Themes well executed in heavy genre and mild-genre movies.

In contrast, Crash is theme intensive and heavy-handed imo. And um.

Actors and directors love theme gives a project purpose and gravitas and ends up framing every shot, every scene. And theme suits the Suits well if they can sell the purpose and gravitas.

...This is my theme, there may be many like it but this one is mine. My theme is my best friend. It is my story's life. I must master it as I must master my story. Without theme, my story is useless. Without my story, I am useless. I must fire my theme true...

And for the cynical... theme is faerie dust for a project.

[JeffLowell]

Joe, let me state the opposite side in a different way and see if I can bring you to your senses.

Specs certainly do sell (and writers certainly do get assignments) based on things like plot, character, dialogue... but if one actually takes the time to work out a strong thematic question before one writes the script (or at least before one rewrites the script), then all of those elements will be better and the script will be more likely to sell, and the writer will be more likely to get assignments, etc.

That's the thing Boski's really missing - he's saying that scripts with good plots sell without understanding that you're a hell of a lot more likely to come up with that good plot if you tend to your theme.

I think the reason Boski's isn't noticing the themes of sold specs (and so how the plot and characters and dialogue are influenced by the themes) is because, for whatever reason, he isn't interested in looking deeper to find it. He's said that he hasn't even bothered to figure out the themes of the two scripts he wrote years ago. He's sure they must have themes - but he isn't interested in looking for them or thinking about them.

I would argue that someone who won't identify the themes in their own work should be disqualified from judging the effect of theme on other people's work. ;)

Some people think theme is the ghost in the machine - some disconnected force that has no direct influence on plot and character and dialogue. It just exists out there somewhere, floating around as some abstract thing that is only brought into focus later by observers.

Can that happen? Sure. But you usually end up with a muddied or trite theme. Sometimes you get lucky - sometimes something in the subject matter resonates with you personally, so the theme is unconsciously incorporated. Or sometimes when you're using another movie as a template, you'll end up incorporating its theme, without ever understanding why those characters and that plot were chosen in the first place.

I think that last one happens a lot, especially with genre pics. You watch four or five successful movies like the one you want to write, and you end up absorbing and incorporating the recurring themes.

You're on the verge of being up for assignments. I think it would be a really good idea for you to be conversant on the theme of whatever you're pitching, because it'll help focus your thoughts when you're coming up with the character beats and plot, and because some producers and execs will want to talk about it.

I'm working on a pitch right now with some producers (from their idea), and in our first call, the first thing I talked about was theme. It's a story about a family traveling to a troubled foreign land, and I talked about how the problems facing the family were caused by the same thing that was causing the trouble in the place they were visiting. And how the solution to both was also the same thing.

Now, we've worked out the pitch, and I'm not planning to talk about theme when we go to the studio. (I'm ready if they want to.) But because the producers and I talked about the theme before we went into any details of the story, the story should be better and more satisfying.

[Mark Somers]

Never mind. :)

[JoeNYC]

Joe9 says, "If that is weaving your theme in, I'll pass. That's pretty lame to me."

-- Francis Ford Coppola is lame to you? Why do you think he mentioned a tiny detail like that?

Joe9, seriously, if you're at the level of writing that you say you are, then I really shouldn't have to explain my point about being conscious of theme and its tiny details.

boski says, "I've never told anyone to be ignorant about theme."

Truisms from boski:

"Focus on creating a great plot/story and theme will practically take care of itself."

"IMO theme is the least important story element in terms of producing marketable screenplays."

"Bold $ provocative theme's don't put butts in seats..."

"I've made it clear that identifying theme is of very little importance to me as either a viewer or a writer."

"I argued -- counter to your point -- that well-executed genre conventions are much more important to the popularity and success of a movie than theme, -- no matter how profound or provocative or novel the theme."

"One of the most telling indicators on the relative unimportance of theme in a spec script is that in the standard industry coverage it doesn't even rate a box of its own..."

-- If the above statements by you don't say to a writer you can be ignorant of theme, then it certainly implies that, especially the first listed statement of focusing on plot and the theme will practically take care of itself.

boski says, "I've just claimed that you can write perfectly marketable specs with little conscious consideration of theme."

-- "...with little conscious consideration of theme..."

This is good, boski, now we're making progress. Before it was "no consideration" and unconscious consideration." Don't stop here, boski, keep going.

Embrace theme. Commit 100%. I promise you it won't hurt.

boski says, "And my main argument's been about the record of scripts in the spec market -- not contests."

-- It all relates to your argument of theme and a script's potential marketability. It's about a story connecting with readers, i.e. actors, producers, directors, managers, studio executives, etc.

The judges of the Scriptapaloza contest are actual people who work in the industry and judge scripts for the market outside of contests too. The producers, agents, managers, etc.

boski says, "I've got to respond to your implication that 'taking Boski's advice' is necessarily some kind of professional suicide."

-- Well, I certainly feel your advice won't enhance the long-term career of an aspiring screenwriter.

Jeff and others, I've asked this before that when you address a different Joe DD member could you please use a clarifying aspect of their handle, such as Joe9, so no one would get confused and believe that you're addressing this Joe, JoeNYC, thanks.

[joe9alt]

I don't think anybody's gonna be confusing you with me, JoeNYC, so no worries there. :bounce:

I love Francis Ford Coppola and my mother's maiden name is Coppola so I feel a certain affinity toward Francis and his family but if he's going around saying "my theme is invisibility (which is confusing in and of itself) so how I'm gonna get that across to people is to go close-in on a piece of saran wrap or make my female lead where a transparent rain coat" well yeah, he's lame in that instance in my book - bless his legendary heart.

Jeff, I don't disagree with anything you just said. I know execs and producers will want to talk about theme because I've been asked to call out the theme of certain scripts during meet and greets. It wasn't in a grilling manner but it certainly has happened enough to indicate to me that theme is very much on the minds of many of the producers and execs i want to be working for so I need to be more conversant in it.

I'm just gonna be totally honest here and admit that any time somebody asks me about the theme of one of my scripts, I know I need to have an answer but most times I feel like I'm pulling a rabbit out of a hat. I'm able to give an intelligent sounding answer but it's almost always an answer I determine on the spot or an answer I've determined after the writing process.

For example, Jeff, in the piece you've read and helped me with, I could say the theme is "family comes before all" or "you can't go back to the person you were in your youth" or whatever. I could say a lot of things and they'd all ring true to a certain extent.

I think what intimidates me a little about the idea of an ironclad theme is i worry it will pin my work and my process down, too much. I want my script to be like a great painting or sculpture. I want it to mean different things to different people. I want the message to be complex but powerful...whatever thinking the story inspires in people I want to be intensely deep thinking. After reading my work, I want the reader to be truly moved in some unique way that their own sensibilities help define almost as much as my own.

Again, I know I need to be professionally conversant when it comes to theme and I have a lot to learn to get where I need to be in order to inspire the necessary confidence in execs and producers. I know they'll need to know I can at least execute the themes that are important to them for a particular piece. I think I'm conversant enough and getting good enough at the game to where I'll be able to at least B.S. them successfully, but I'm not sure how much conscious awareness of theme will ever or should ever impact my personal writing process.

But maybe it's just because -- as you kind of alluded to -- most of my work thus far has been very personal to me and directly pulled from my life experience in some fashion.

Right now I'm working on a script that has me out of that comfort zone. It's a big adventure movie that will incorporate the previous advice you gave me on the importance of great set piece as movies within movies. I'm about 35 pages in...just started the 2nd act....I'm pleased with my work so far but I also feel like there's something missing....some aspect I'm not accenting enough.

Maybe it's theme?

[sc111]

For me, an awareness of theme really helps in the rewrite and polish stage. We all have those scenes that are functional but there's that feeling that another scene or perhaps different dialogue or perhaps a different set piece would serve the same plot point better. At this juncture I focus on the theme as it relates to this "just okay" scene and I always find a way to either amp it up or write a new scene.

I've found that consciously applying theme opens up your options. There's never only one way to write/tell a story.

For my new script, I did start with theme in mind first. And it's the first time I ever did this. I took months deciding on which genre would be the best vehicle for the theme. I initially believed drama would serve it best.
Now I've moved to a hybrid - dramedy. And I've written three totally different openings for the same script because the theme gives me those options.

I'd advise anyone, if only for the sake of experiment, try it.

[sc111]

Joe9alt --

Just read your post. Once can extract what seem to be different themes from the same script but the source theme is driving the actions and the arc of your character.

That's why Tao's thread about looking at theme as thesis/antithesis is very helpful.

The protag begins clutching to the antithesis. Let's say it's: "Power and fortune comes before family." But the writer's thesis is "Family comes before all." It's the journey from the anthesis to the thesis that impacts the protag's choices/actions and forms his/her arc.

[JeffLowell]

I think what intimidates me a little about the idea of an ironclad theme is i worry it will pin my work and my process down, too much.

The theme police aren't going to break into your house if you make a choice that has nothing to do with theme. And, to me, theme never dictates "do X or Y," it's just a central question that can be answered in different ways by different characters and plot developments.

I guess I'd say try it - and if it's not helpful, don't use it. I personally don't think time spent thinking about the heart of your script can be wasted time, so there's little risk. ;)

I want my script to be like a great painting or sculpture. I want it to mean different things to different people. I want the message to be complex but powerful...whatever thinking the story inspires in people I want to be intensely deep thinking. After reading my work, I want the reader to be truly moved in some unique way that their own sensibilities help define almost as much as my own.

I think the odds of that happening accidentally or unconsciously are slim. Maybe I'm nuts.

[joe9alt]

Jeff, I don't disagree necessarily and I certainly am looking at theme in a different, more thoughtful way and trying to learn more about how to identify it process wise, consciously weave it in and then articulate it in a room.

But I do think that lines between say plot development and character development and theme are fairly blurred a lot of the time...at least for me at this point.

[JeffLowell]

Sorry, not good enough. No writing career for you.

[joe9alt]

Foiled again! :mad:

[jonpiper]

Jeff, I don't disagree necessarily and I certainly am looking at theme in a different, more thoughtful way and trying to learn more about how to identify it process wise, consciously weave it in and then articulate it in a room.

But I do think that lines between say plot development and character development and theme are fairly blurred a lot of the time...at least for me at this point.

Plot, character, setting and dialogue are visible. They are what is written, what is filmed. Theme is what we use to tie them together when we write a screenplay. The audience doesn't see theme, the audience interprets theme from the plot, characters, dialogue and setting. Theme is on a different level, so I don't think the lines are blurred between theme and the other elements.

We don't choose between theme and plot. We use theme to help us create our plot, choose the points, twists, and reveals in our plot.

We constantly make choices when we write the screenplay. What happens here? What should I reveal about this character? What does this character say? Where does this scene take place? Why does this happen? Etc., etc. Theme is our guide.

So I think theme is at least two things.

1. It's something an audience can interpret from the screenplay/movie.

2. It's something that helps us write a more coherent screenplay.

Hey, I'm still learning, and the above was written to clarify my thoughts on the subject, not to expound on the subject. Just my two cents.

[TwoBrad Bradley]

I recommend "Inside Story, The Power of the Transformational Arc" by Dara Marks if you are really interested in theme, no matter what side you're on.

Here's an excerpt:

"Theme is based on what the writer believes and believes in. This is the writer's unique voice, distinctive point of view, and, above all, what is personally valued. Therefore, personal beliefs form the cornerstone of a theme, and it is from the theme then that a writer can come to understand the true intention of his or her story."

[joe9alt]

I guess what I'm most curious about and maybe what would be most helpful to me in understanding this if If writers share examples of how they incorporate their feelings on theme into their writing and rewriting process.

I mean I just don't get sitting their and saying to myself when rewriting, "My theme is 'love will conquer all and lead to happiness' so let me insert a rainbow into the background of scene A" -- which is the sort of thinking that's suggested when examples like Coppola making his lead actress where a transparent rain coat to communicate his theme of "invisibility" are cited.

I also have concerns that going into the initial drafting process with theme as a priority won't allow me to immerse myself in the characters' worlds. I worry it'll constantly have me pulling back and questioning myself and wondering if my "theme" is communicated here and here and here instead of immersing myself/losing myself in the characters' worlds and writing about what I see in my mind and what I know of their minds.

When I go back and make tweaks after I have a completed draft I'm always asking myself questions like, "is that true to the character?" "Is that true to the world I've created and the story I'm telling?" "Is it believable and relatable?" But those questions come about because of my focus on staying true to my characters and their world.

I don't sit there and say "my theme is 'family comes above all' so what I need to do is insert a rocking chair into the background of scene A because that's a symbol of both infancy and aging."

How do you incorporate your feelings on the importance of theme into your writing process?

I WANT TO BELIEVE. :confused:

[jimjimgrande]

I guess what I'm most curious about and maybe what would be most helpful to me in understanding this if If writers share examples of how they incorporate their feelings on theme into their writing and rewriting process.

How do you incorporate your feelings on the importance of theme into your writing process?

I'll give it a shot, though I expect I might fail.

For me, theme is the spine of the story I'm telling, off of which character and story must grow. It is a central question that is being asked, generally by the main character, and in the best of times, that character answers that question in a way that speaks to what I believe. And perhaps if I'm really kicking ass, with the supporting players, a minority or dissenting opinion can also be expressed. (props to Tao and my current boss for helping me understand this in a way I can now articulate and apply.)

So if theme is a diamond in the rough, and polishing it is me writing, I think about how each scene, each character, and the decisions those characters make - how each of these elements reveals and illuminates a facet of that diamond.

For the record I don't think I've ever knocked it out of the park and usually I get lost in a lot of other stuff in the process. The last feature spec I wrote was an action piece, yet throughout the writing of it, I kept asking myself "What is this really about?" "What I am trying to say?"

Why? Because even though a lot of it is some young guy kicking ass, the way he's gonna kick ass and how he's going to feel about it is, in my mind, informed by theme. I believe that the decisions he makes must be on the thematic spine of the story or they won't feel authentic.

Now I'm not saying that theme by necessity has to be some high minded philosophical exploration. Not at all. The theme of my script was simply about identity - Who am I? Which becomes a central question when you apply it not just to identity in the physical sense (like Bourne), but also in a moral and existential sense - Am I a killer?

The answer to my question was that you can't escape what you've been molded into, you must embrace what you really are. Nobody said it, but that was my intent. For my creative process, arriving at that decision dictated how my script would end - the place where my character must inevitably arrive.

I currently work in tv. Whenever we pitch nascent ideas to our showrunner and upper level execs, the first question they ask is "What's the theme of this episode?" If we can't articulate it, or at least demonstrate that we are exploring a particular idea or question, they tell us to figure that out before we go any further.

theme is out there Joe9. Believe.

[Farnsworth]

joe9alt,

If you have not read it already, I strongly recommend that you read Lajos Egri's THE ART OF DRAMATIC WRITING.

You've raised the question of whether or not a writer, in the midst of composition, should allow theme to arise consciously or unconsciously. Egri gives a compelling reason for it to arise consciously. Why? Because if a writer allows theme (Egri uses the term "premise") to arise unconsciously, he or she will either hit or miss in the composition process. Egri calls for playwrights (main subject of his book) to consciously articulate the theme in the beginning of the process. Now, that does not mean that you cannot probe for theme during some sort of drafting process; but once you have articulated it in a general, universal, short sentence, then post it to your forehead and use it as a guide to your story.

I believe that you should post at least three items to guide your story:
1. Theme (articulated in a sentence, McKee's formula is best: e.g. Love conquers all when lovers sacrifice their lives for it.

2. Logline (or a single sentence outlining your plot and nature of the conflict or confrontation)

3. Genre catagory.

Egri's point is to become a consciously enlightened writer, not an unconscious hit-and-miss writer. Why? The writer needs to be prolific in order to be competitive in the market.

[WritersBlock2010]

I currently work in tv. Whenever we pitch nascent ideas to our showrunner and upper level execs, the first question they ask is "What's the theme of this episode?" If we can't articulate it, or at least demonstrate that we are exploring a particular idea or question, they tell us to figure that out before we go any further.

The show "Eureka" on Sci-Fi is a prime example of themes in action on a weekly basis.

Every single episode this season has had an in-your-face theme... And it usually starts in the cold open/teaser when a character makes a casual remark about something and then that remark is put to an extreme test the rest of the episode via the events that follow. These events and the dialog that follow reinforce, or challenge the theme. They are also in-your-face because the writers have various characters literally repeat the thematic statement (piece of dialog) through all four acts to make sure "we get it".

This, JoeAlt, is how you go about incorporating theme. Through dialog and actions. Not just what the characters do and say, but the situations you construct and put the characters in. Remember, screenwriting is writing for the screen, so if you can express your theme both aurally (dialog) and visually (what you have your characters doing; the setting; an event; etc) you will be doing exactly what you are worried about... Without even knowing it.

For example, last week's theme on "Eureka" was "Pressure can be a good and bad depending on what kind of pressure". The episode was about an outcast Geologist who kept predicting a major volcanic eruption underneath Eureka. No one believes him because of his previous predictions which turned out to be wrong. Nobody, but the Sheriff. So, now the Sheriff and the Geologist are under pressure to convince TPB in Eureka that a major geological disaster is going to happen before it destroys the town. That's the A-storyline. This theme was also addressed with the B-Storyline of "Information Diamonds" being created under Eureka (the cause of the geological instability) because a diamond is the perfect metaphor for something good coming out of such intense pressure, but at the same time having a negative side-effect (the instability of the bedrock which Eureka rests on). The C-Storyline also reflected the theme of "pressure" with the Sheriff's daughter not wanting to take an advanced Physics class because of the "pressure" she would be under to do well.

Notice how the writers used literal (the geological instability of Eureka) and metaphoric (Information Diamonds; Sheriff's daughter afraid of doing well) examples to reinforce their theme of "pressure can be good and bad depending on what kind of pressure".

[joe9alt]

This, JoeAlt, is how you go about incorporating theme. Through dialog and actions. Not just what the characters do and say, but the situations you construct and put the characters in. Remember, screenwriting is writing for the screen, so if you can express your theme both aurally (dialog) and visually (what you have your characters doing; the setting; an event; etc) you will be doing exactly what you are worried about... Without even knowing it.

Which means I'd be doing it unconsciously, right?

I don't know, I certainly appreciate everybody's sentiments and I hope more people continue to share but the above sounds to me more like plotting/story work of which I believe theme naturally springs out of.

Jimjim, I agree a writer needs to be able to articulate and intelligently speak about themes to producers and execs - i'm just not sure how useful doing that is during my own writing process.

But I think it probably comes down to labelling.

What many of you call "incorporating the theme."

I call "working on character and story."

But as I said, I want to learn here. So keep it comin'.

[mrjonesprods]

I also know an actor who's been in several movies and has been an associate producer on a film.

From State & Main

JOE
What's an Associate Producer credit?

BILL
It's what you give to your secretary
instead of a raise.

Couldn't resist. :rolling:

[J off course]

No wonder there is so much theme in that geology show.

The "A Story" a sheriff and geologist must convince whomever
a major disaster is going to occur is a big YAWN.

anyway, to answer the original question, why does theme draw so
much interest...I was looking at my notes I jote down, things that
inspire me and I have this from Deus,

"You may be doing what a lot of writers do, focusing on
the aspects of your story that you like the most. Almost
always that is theme and character arc"

I put that on a 3 X 5 because I do get tied down with theme
and character arc and forget that bigger concept, brighter plot
is where I need to be focusing on and liking about what I write.

well..that's why I think it draws interest. It may be what
we do best?

[jimjimgrande]

Jimjim, I agree a writer needs to be able to articulate and intelligently speak about themes to producers and execs - i'm just not sure how useful doing that is during my own writing process.


that last paragraph was just to reinforce everything I said previously in my post. Also, since I work in tv, the showrunner and upper level execs are the senior writers on the show. But like I said, I'd probably fail

[joe9alt]

No, it was helpful to get some insight into your process and how you incorporate theme into it for sure.

I still feel like a lot of this debate results from labelling, though.

It sounds like a lot of your "theme" work is what I call character/story work.

[JoeNYC]

Joe9 says, "...which is the sort of thinking that's suggested when examples like Coppola making his lead actress wear a transparent rain coat to communicate his theme of 'invisibility' are cited."

-- This, an example of expressing an aspect of the theme with an image, was just to show how easily an opportunity could be missed if one doesn't go about expressing the theme of his story consciously.

Theme is expressed through plot, character, dialogue, metaphors, settings, images, etc.

For example, let's take a simple theme with a movie most have seen: "Superbad." I've touched on this in the other theme thread.

The main theme was friendship. The two main characters are lifelong best friends and they're heading into their last weeks of high school, where afterwards they're gonna be separated for the first time going to separate colleges.

They're not taking this too well, especially the fat one. They're having anxiety about being apart.

It's not surprising that the two writers were best friends and in high school at the time of writing this script.

The external plot is about when a girl invited one of the guys to a party, they promised to bring the booze, so they go on a frantic search for booze in order to score some points with the girls and get them drunk to get some sex off of them before they become college guys.

Remember, the underlying theme is friendship, so this, the
POV aspect, which is the separation anxiety, is what you'll need to keep focus of and weave throughout your story.

Concentrating on the cool goings on of the external plot a writer could lose focus of the theme, so he needs to be aware of the underlying theme.

This internal angst of the separation anxiety of two best friends is what gave the movie depth and heart. Moviegoers were able to relate to that emotion, which made for a very satisfying story.

Could it have been an entertaining story with just the crazy, funny stuff going on with the search for the booze, party and scoring sex?

Yeah, sure, but don't you agree that "Superbad" was richer and more satisfying with the universal theme that was included?

This is the whole point about enriching your story with a strong theme: enhancing a moviegoer's emotional satisfaction.

[joe9alt]

For example, let's take a simple theme with a movie most have seen: "Superbad." I've touched on this in the other theme thread.

The main theme was friendship. The two main characters are lifelong best friends and they're heading into their last weeks of high school, where afterwards they're gonna be separated for the first time going to separate colleges.

They're not taking this too well, especially the fat one. They're having anxiety about being apart.

To me you're pointing out aspects of character and plot and labelling them "theme".

The seperation anxiety and how the characters feel about it is an overt part of the story...there is nothing hidden or 'woven in' about it...it grounds the characters and makes them real and relateable.

Again I am NOT questioning whether or not theme exists. I know it does. I believe theme is in every story but I don't see how the writers of Superbad were aided in writing the story and developing the characters by sitting down and saying, "the theme is friendship" before they wrote the movie. They created a real world with real, relateable characters and then after the fact we can look at that world and those characters and say "the theme is friendship."

How useful saying that during the writing process, for me, is still under debate.

[JoeNYC]

Well, sorry that my example is confusing for you. I'll let someone else try to give you an understanding with another example.

[JeffLowell]

JimJimGrande nailed it, IMO. But that won't stop me from saying more. ;)

I'm leery of one word themes. I can see why people shy away from thinking theme is important if the answer is "friendship" or "invisibility." I'd argue that the theme can be boiled down to one word, but a good writer will have a more complex, specific theme they're incorporating.

I just write silly comedies, but I'll give an example from a script of mine.

I always loved the exchange between Fitzgerald and Hemingway about the rich. I wrote a screenplay around it - and in fact, the first words in the movie are the main character saying:

F. Scott Fitzgerald said “The rich are different from you and me.” Earnest Hemingway’s answer was “Yes, they have more money."

That's the theme of the movie on the first page - and it's an argument with no easy or obvious answer. It's not a dictum that the characters are out to prove. It's an undecided question, not something like picking "money is the root of all evil," and then spending the whole screenplay showing it.

Can you read the script and say "the theme of the script is money?" Okay. Sure. But it's so general that it's meaningless.

Now, since that theme is a question, I have two main characters who start the screenplay believing each side of the debate. The plot was picked to construct a situation where each one would have support for their point of view. They're sure they're right, and they can point to incidents in their life that prove it to themselves.

Of course, the plot of the movie is both of the main characters trying to prove their POV to the other person, and coming to understand the other side of it a bit better. At the end, I do take sides - but there's no reason I have to. There are plenty of great movies where the theme's central question is left unresolved - in fact, the best movies probably leave it up to the audience to try to answer the question for themselves.

I also have secondary characters who seem to personify each side of the debate. And even there, it turns out that their real beliefs are different than what the main characters think.

Out of that theme, I took my main characters, secondary characters, plot and a lot of dialogue.

But like I said, I write silly little movies. Try to imagine Crimes And Misdemeanors without the theme consciously woven into the plot of the movie. "Do god's eyes watch us?"

Holy sh!t, what would be left? You have one character who is worried that god does watch him, and when he decides that god doesn't, he's relieved and can live his life. You have another character who is terrified that god isn't watching him - it would take meaning away from his life. One of the characters is an ophthalmologist. You have the Rabbi go blind - literally god's eyes going blind. You have a philosopher who tries to find meaning in a world with an indifferent (or blind) god kill himself.

And visually? I know it's outside the scope of our debate, but watch that movie again looking for eyes. Cars headlights go out after the murder. A light bulb reflected in a mirror over a character's head so it looks like god looking down on him. The mistress's open, unseeing eyes after she's been killed.

If all of that is accidental, then... Well, I can't finish the thought, because it can't be accidental.

Or take "Unforgiven." There, it's "is it ever acceptable to kill a man?" Look how many of the characters talk about how the job is a good, moral job because the rapists "had it coming." And yet, a lot of characters turn away from killing, even though they feel it's justified. And the only villain who's killed by the side of "good," the sheriff, is the one who didn't kill anyone. So is that acceptable? And the sheriff is killed for it, which seems just, but then the town is left ruined by that justice.

Here's a bit in the movie that blows my mind:

Eastwood starts off the movie telling a story about killing a man who "didn't do anything to deserve to get shot, at least nothin' I could remember when I sobered up." At this point, he clearly believe that sometimes it's acceptable to kill a man who deserves it. And that he was wicked for killing men who didn't deserve it.

The, after he shoots Hackman, Hackman says "I don't deserve this... to die like this. I was building a house."

And Eastwood replies: "Deserves got nothin' to do with it."

I bow down to that. Such an elegant way to show the journey that character took. An assassin who tried to kill people who deserved it, because he understood the terrible thing that killing a man is, realizing that there's no justification for it.

And then he lives and prospers, and isn't punished, even though he shot down a room full of men trying to do the right thing.

Because deserves got nothin' to do with it.

[jonpiper]

Jimjim, I agree a writer needs to be able to articulate and intelligently speak about themes to producers and execs - i'm just not sure how useful doing that is during my own writing process.

But I think it probably comes down to labelling.

What many of you call "incorporating the theme."

I call "working on character and story."



joe, incorporating the theme and working on character and story are not two separate elements. They are interrelated. They feed on each other.

Questions: How does the incorporation of theme improve the screenwriting process? How does one incorporate theme into character and plot?

SC111 has recently discovered how the use of theme helps her during the writing process and in rewrites. So have I.

Let me give you an example of how it is helping me move ahead in my current work.

My story had no direction. It began with an idea that excited me, but an idea that is not completely original. How could I give it a different spin? What would happen if a teenager found a tiny computer accidently left of earth 35,000 years ago by visitors from another galaxy? What if this little computer were much more powerful than anything in existance in 2008. It's loaded with advanced technology and able to communicate with distant civilizations.

A million things could happen. All kinds of plot, character, and scene ideas popped into my head and my story went in a hundred directions. So, in the heat of passion, I wrote a broad outline and began to write, until I became stuck in act 2.

Then I came up with a theme that guides me as I write scenes and sequences. [By the way the theme may change as I continue to write the story] Ta dum, my theme. Great problems will be caused by the discovery and sudden introducttion of an advanced technology.

My protag encounters problems after he finds it. The nations of earth encounter problems. Decendents of those who left the device on Earth want to retreive it because they want to prevent problems from effecting the rest of the universe.

Now I choose plot points, character motivations, and other elements based on my theme. It gives me direction. Action serves the plot, but the plot serves the theme.

Hope that helps. Or at least raises more questions.:)

[sarajb]

I wrote a short script based on a subject prompt from a contest. Afterward, I thought I’d expand the whole thing into a feature, because there was something about it.

So, as I’m writing the first act - a world off its axis, spinning out of control with some of the inhabitants literally transforming into hideous beasts and driving the rest out of the (only) city into caves, where they’re in constant survival mode and at each others throats – what it’s about starts to hit me, the consequences of extended stalemate to a society, to an individual, and an argument over what breaks the cycle (the winner in my world is an open mind). After that revelation, the scenes were rewritten and the rest is falling into place. I’m still working on refining the theme, but the script's already better for having a significant guide for the action.

I also realized the piece I was writing before this is about nearly the same thing, even though one is an action fantasy and the other is a dramedy.

[JoeNYC]

Lowell says, "I'm leery of one word themes."

-- No problem with this statement.

It's just easier for beginners to start with one word theme expressions than go to a thesis type form, which would be more complicated and frustrating where they might give up trying to get an understanding.

The one word "Friendship" would be the topic and the controlling idea would be: Could two best friends survive being apart?

[ihavebiglips]

"Friendship."

"Invisibility."

These aren't themes, to me, and therefore aren't going to do much but muddy the waters when it comes to a discussion on theme.

These words (and what they evoke) is so abstract that they might as well not be mentioned.

Let me guess, the theme of Friday the 13th 4 is "Death."

I agree with Tao that a theme is best served up in the form of a thesis. I prefer a thesis that is consistent with my own worldview (which is pretty subversive, as I've been called).

In other words, I deal in provocation.

However, as I stated in the other thread I don't believe that a theme needs to be tied directly to the premise.

One of our scripts is a heist story.

The original idea came to when I was thinking about the difficulty of creating original stories. It comes down to execution. Everything I can think of has been thought of. Good thing I ain't a bank robber.

There was my story idea: two gangs of bankrobbers try to rob the same bank on the same day.

Yet, the thesis we state is "Blood is not thicker than water." It goes against the more conventional thesis "Blood is thicker than water," and automatically informs our script with a Darwinian kind of self-service that I think informs reality.

In my non-expert view, this is where the semantics between theme and plotting/character come in.

When you conceive of a premise, there is no plot (not yet):

Die Hard in an armored car!

A man ages backwards!

A serial killer uses the seven dealdy sins in his murders!

Two gangs of bank robbers attempt to rob the same bank on the same day!

There are a million different directions you could take any one of these premises. So we come up with a diegesis for it all, a real world inhabited by characters and settings and mood and tone (mise-en-scene), etc... we begin to make characters and plot our story.

How do we choose how the story unfolds? How do we plot it? Who are these people that will play out my tale? It becomes very complicated here, and this is where the "guru" mentality of compartmentalizing writing into a paint-by-numbers endeavor breaks down.

If you think film exists purely an as entertainment, this isn't true. Not a narrative film, and most ceratinly not the agenda driven-art film. The closest you'll come to a film existing for pure entertainment is porn.

Anyway, I digress...:p

So, you aren't plotting purely to entertain (it's a part of it, don't get me wrong. No one sets out to write a boring story, like I said - this is complicated).

You're plotting to reach a beginning, middle, and great climax you thought up. But wait, my characters have to act in a consistent manner to reach this climax as well. They don't have to change, but if they do it better be explained and justified or the audience will surely cry "foul!"

We spend time trying to write believable characters in believable worlds. Even Spider-Man's diegetic world has rules it must follow...

Back to Theme. To me, the Writer's Theme has two main functions:

1) ANGLE

If not derivative and conventionally tied to premise (as I stated I like to operate), theme gives my story an angle. I could have told any kind of heist story. I chose to tell a story that disemminates a facet of my worldview (write what you know).

Now I have an angle to my heist story. In micro, it's a bank robbery flick. In macro, it's a film about family, betrayal, and our primal instinct to look out for numero uno.

2) THEME'S MY SHERPA

Now, I have these great characters I created. And I have this cool plot I'm working on. If I merely plot out the story, I may find that certain plot points are not justified or don't allow for consistent action by my characters.

But, now that I have my sherpa guide Theme, I know where I need to go.

I need to change those plots points, as they weren't conducive to character consistency (these are logic jumps and plot holes we see in films all the time, and it's lazy writing - or bad editing).

Or, I need to change the fundamental nature of these characters to allow for ceratin plotted actions to remain (but this, for me, is where I kill my plot darlings and remain true to writing layered, consistent characters).

My thesis will guide me, and my characters, down a path of consistency.

Now, perhaps some writers naturally stay on task, and all of their characters are always consistent and textured, and their actions always fall right into place with plot points. But, I guess I ain't that gifted (and I refuse to be lazy, in my writing if not my real-world life).

So there you go... theme informing my plot, helping to foster believability in my characters, and (hopefully) resonating with audiences.

The trick is to remain organic and incorporate subtext. A good theme will demand a certain ending from your story, and subsequently demand that the plot points be congruent with the characters to get there.

Notice, I called all of this the Writer's Theme. I hope that my story elucidates this theme in a manner so subtle that it takes a very adept viewer or reader to mine it.

But, as Boski and Joe point out, the audience will intepret the work as well, and bring everything in their make-up to the table when mining the work for themes. But, thanks to my writer's theme, they can spend the time considering the theme instead of damning the logic jumps and plot holes in the film.

[ihavebiglips]

Just saw Mr. Lowell's post. Guess I took too long constructing my own.

Parallels in sub-plot and secondary characters arguing for and against the thesis/theme is something I meant to touch on but... but I get sidetracked. I think my posts here need themes, to keep me on task.

Good ****, Jeff. Thanks.

[joe9alt]

Wow.

This really is all great stuff to chew on.

Thanks especially to JimJim, JeffLowell, and Lips for sharing information regarding the incorporation of theme into their writing process.

At least I understand where you’re all coming from better now. I didn’t before.

I need to think about and stew on what you guys are saying and then determine if I think it will aid in my process.

I will say this.

To this point, I haven’t worked this way (I don’t think!).

I haven’t sat down and came up with a “controlling statement” or whatever and then referred back to it when I was “lost” during my writing.

I think it all boils down to how a writer approaches material and I have not approached my work consciously using theme as a guidepost.

I haven’t approached it how it sounds like Boski approaches it, either…intensely focusing on commerciality and letting that drive my choices.

Maybe I read too much Kerouac as a kid or something.

But here’s how I’ve worked to this point…

I’ll get inspired…I draw inspiration from all sorts of things.

My most recent script was inspired after I read a newspaper article about a dude I knew a little in high school who beat some old man to death in a bar and then went on the run.

I wondered, “what would happen if he showed up out here fifteen years later on my doorstep and what if he wasn’t just some dude I knew but my best friend from high school? And what if he lied to me about why he was out here and what if the sons of the old man he killed had tracked him out here…..”

And I was off to the races.

I constructed a lead character and several key supporting characters.

And then, ya know what I do? I lose myself in their world. I submerge.

I don’t overanalyze and I don’t try to define everything and make everything academic and list out elements and things that I have to focus on.

I just go with the flow….let the game come to me….that world and those characters become a real place inside my mind and to stop in the middle of a scene and say “my theme is family comes before all. Where can I insert a rocking chair to drive that home” would just pull me out of that world and away from those characters and it would mess up my rhythm. When it’s going good, it’s almost like I’m just reporting on that world from a bird’s eye view, ya know?

Now I’ll go back and rewrite but rarely do I go back and say, “where can I stick the rocking chair or where can I have somebody wearing a Partridge family shirt or wear can I put the invisible rain coat on or have lights going off in every scene.”

If that is your process then cool. I respect it and if it works for you I encourage you to push it further and further.

And I’m going to keep exploring theme, too, because as I said I know I will need to able to speak intelligently about it and articulate it to producers and executives.

I sincerely doubt it will ever become a conscious part of my process, though.

That’s just me. That’s how I approach material and I’m doing okay.

As always, I continually reserve the right to modify my approach as needed. :bounce:

[twk69045]

I love that concept, Joe. Whether you drew the theme before or after the fact, it sounds very interesting.

[sc111]

Joe9:

Interesting story. I'm curious -- what choice does your protag make in regards to the best friend after he finds out the truth?

[sc111]

Boski --

Theme drives the character arc.

What did the 'good guy' learn on his journey?

The quickest route to finding the theme in a film is to look at the protag's arc. What did he or she learn?


Jeff offered a wonderful breakdown of The Unforgiven. What did the Eastwood character learn?

It wasn't "The good guy always wins."

[JeffLowell]

It wasn't "The good guy always wins."

Okay, so it's not one hundred percent of popular movies. ;)

For what it's worth, that isn't even the lesson of The Dark Knight, which, as a superhero movie, you'd think would end up with that simple dualism.

Batman ends up with the love of his life murdered, the one honest hope for Gotham dead, and the police after him for murder. He's a pariah. If that's beating the adversarial forces against him, then count me out for the job of Batman.

[twk69045]

But batman conquered the criminal element in Gotham.

[joe9alt]

Joe9:

Interesting story. I'm curious -- what choice does your protag make in regards to the best friend after he finds out the truth?

Essentially the story is about a dude who as a youth was a terror and then worked his whole life to physically, mentally, and emotionally evolve from that and mature into a man.

When his wife and son are kidnapped by the sons of the man his best friend killed, he is forced to transform back into that terror in order to save them.

To answer your question specifically he beats his former best friend to within an inch of his life and basically crushes everything and everybody else who steps in his path toward his wife and kid.

[sc111]

Okay, so it's not one hundred percent of popular movies. ;)



And we can probably come up with 100s more. Iconic films. Entertaining films. Highly profitable films.

All disproving Boski's claim that "the good guy always wins" was the cookie-cutter theme.

[sc111]

Essentially the story is about a dude who as a youth was a terror and then worked his whole life to physically, mentally, and emotionally evolve from that and mature into a man.

When his wife and son are kidnapped by the sons of the man his best friend killed, he is forced to transform back into that terror in order to save them.

To answer your question specifically he beats his former best friend to within an inch of his life and basically crushes everything and everybody else who steps in his path toward his wife and kid.

Sounds a tad similar in theme to History of Violence.

[JeffLowell]

But batman conquered the criminal element in Gotham.

Did he? As I recall, he left the Joker hanging from a rope - the same Joker that had escaped from many more confining situations. The criminal he killed was Two Face, who the Joker had just created half an hour ago. And even they did manage to get the Joker in jail, all that did was take pressure off the mob bosses who the Joker was terrorizing.

Like many good movies, it was a complex ending, not simply good triumphs over evil.

[twk69045]

Yeah, nothing in that movie was simple, no one would argue against that. I thought it did show the police arrive to pick up the joker, I might be wrong. And the mob bosses were pleading for help from... I think it was Gordon... because of how insane the joker was. Harvey Dent an icon, two face dead, joker back where he was during Batman Begins, I believe, and except for Bruce Wayne's personal life, things are almost back to tranquil. As close as possible to the status quo at the beginning of the film where the criminal organizations were complaining in backrooms about not being able to get a break. Probably even worse off than they were then because the joker seemed to have fun killing them. And on top of that, a renewed public interest in law and justice.

[joe9alt]

Sounds a tad similar in theme to History of Violence.

I like to think it's more grounded in reality and character but I can see why you make that reference of course.

I loved the premise of History Of Violence but was not wild about the execution.

I think of it more in the tradition of movies like UNFORGIVEN.

Anyways...thanks again to everybody for sharing your thoughts on theme.

At the very least it'll help me BS better when I'm in a room and backed into a thematic corner ;)

[sc111]

Joe9 -

It sounds like yours is more grounded in reality.

What's similar is -- man gives up his violent ways but his past comes back to haunt him (in your story symbolized by the friend) and to triumph over antagonistic fores he must rely on the part of himself he wanted to change: his violent self.

I'm curious about how your protag arcs. what conclusions does he come to after his journey.

[Farnsworth]

I want to thank Writersblock2010 for those EXCELLENT THEMATIC INTERPRETATIONS OF EUREKA, one of my favorite t.v. shows, next to BURN NOTICE. (I would love to read thematic interpretations of BURN NOTICE from Writersblock2010. I used to teach college English. If Writersblock2010 turned that into me as a paper, I'd give him or her an A+.) :love:

joe9alt, I think you are confusing the expression of theme through all literary elements with the notion of theme itself.

The real issue here, I believe, is to become a more CONSCIOUS writer as opposed to just an UNCONSCIOUS one.

Remember, for Freud the CONSCIOUS mind is a highly organized part of the UNCONSCIOUS mind. Psychoanalytic therapy is based on bringing unconscious material into the light of consciousness. This is also the science and the art of writing.

[Ire]

I like to think it's more grounded in reality and character but I can see why you make that reference of course.

I loved the premise of History Of Violence but was not wild about the execution.

I think of it more in the tradition of movies like UNFORGIVEN.

Anyways...thanks again to everybody for sharing your thoughts on theme.

At the very least it'll help me BS better when I'm in a room and backed into a thematic corner ;)

Joe 9 alt, backed into a thematic corner since at least 5 minutes ago. :eek: A Cinderella theme story on the line. The crowd is on the edge of their seats.

[Mark Somers]

Off subject but...


Ire. I clicked on the "Onion" link and for the last couple of hours I've been reading the stuff there and laughing so hard my sides hurt. Thanks :rolling:

Cooter Obama. Obama's half brother... :rolling: :rolling: :rolling: :rolling:


Back to the regular scheduled program. Umm Oh yea I like theme.

[kintnerboy]

I guess what I'm most curious about and maybe what would be most helpful to me in understanding this if If writers share examples of how they incorporate their feelings on theme into their writing and rewriting process.


I wrote a short last year about two friends going wreck-diving for lost treasure off the coast of North Carolina. The story ends when one of their air lines is severed and he attacks his friend to get at his mask. In the process, they both drown.

The whole thing for me was born from the idea that the “buddy system” is a fallacy, and when it comes right down to it and lives are on the line, it’s every man for himself. That idea is never expressly stated in the script, and I’m sure that most people asked to find a theme in there would (wrongly) say something about ‘greed is bad’ or ‘man against nature’, but that just goes to show how little understood this whole thing is.

I’m not saying that that’s any grand theme, but it is an opinion that’s unique to me, and ideas like that are the starting point for everything I write. I can’t imagine how anybody does it any other way (oh I’m sure that there are writers who sit and stare at a blank screen thinking “okay, now all I need is a protagonist, a goal and some obstacles….” but they’re not anyone I would ever want to work and/or have a beer with).

[amandag]

My most recent script was inspired after I read a newspaper article about a dude I knew a little in high school who beat some old man to death in a bar and then went on the run.

I wondered, “what would happen if he showed up out here fifteen years later on my doorstep and what if he wasn’t just some dude I knew but my best friend from high school? And what if he lied to me about why he was out here and what if the sons of the old man he killed had tracked him out here…..”

I don’t overanalyze and I don’t try to define everything and make everything academic and list out elements and things that I have to focus on.

I think that's a perfectly reasonable approach; There's no reason 'one way should fit all.' Writing is a creative process and everybody's process is different.

Theme is useful in unifying a story if you have 'arms and legs' sticking out from the main body, but sometimes people can just make it flow intuitively. You're wise to inquire so you can discuss it as needed in meetings, but I think it's silly to adopt a process that is counterintuitive to you (which it doesn't sound like you're doing ;) ) if it ain't broke to begin with.

I never outline, but I'm a structure freak. I go by feel, and that works for me. :)

[jonpiper]

I found an article that hits on most of the points we've discussed in this thread and the Plot vs. Theme thread. Clarifies much for those of us in the learning mode.

What Themes May Come - The Story of Plot and Theme By John Rainey

http://www.mythmakerjohn.com/article_5.htm

One point from the article:

Plot and theme have this symbiotic relationship. They can’t be separated, but they are different. They illuminate different parts of the same experience. The THEME tells us what the protagonist needs and yearns for as the result of some past experience, or ghost, that throws some value out of balance in his/her psyche -- the Theme goal. The PLOT shows us what the protagonist will do to achieve what s/he needs -- the Plot goal.

[joe9alt]

I think that's a perfectly reasonable approach; There's no reason 'one way should fit all.' Writing is a creative process and everybody's process is different.

Theme is useful in unifying a story if you have 'arms and legs' sticking out from the main body, but sometimes people can just make it flow intuitively. You're wise to inquire so you can discuss it as needed in meetings, but I think it's silly to adopt a process that is counterintuitive to you (which it doesn't sound like you're doing ;) ) if it ain't broke to begin with.

I never outline, but I'm a structure freak. I go by feel, and that works for me. :)

I use to be very resistant to traditional structure, too, and after forcing myself to engage in these types of debates I've found that I've naturally incorporated a lot of the things I used to rage against into my process!

So maybe it'll work that way with theme, too?

At the end of the day, I feel like a lot of thematic points that many of you hit by consciously thinking about theme can be hit (in my case) in other ways (ie: thinking about character).

[ihavebiglips]

Joe, if you remember when I read some of your work, I praised it for its rhythm and cadence (especially the action lines) and said it was very "beat." Kerouac and company are a big influence on myself as well.

I was (and still am, to a degree) just like you. Try to get inspired, write interesting characters in interesting situations. I didn't initially give a **** about theme. But, when noticing logic fallacies and plot holes in my own **** during rewrites, and reading Tao's posts on theme as thesis, I developed the process I outlined earlier.

Now, don't get me wrong... I don't operate with a "controlling idea" so much as a guiding light. That's why I call it the "Writer's Theme," vs interpretive theme.

My main focus is closer to your approach than you'd expect, I just like my sherpa when I get lost. Plus, I like the angle aspect. I find all of this makes my first drafts better and better. It basically comes down to giving my entire script, from theme to character to plot machinations, etc a closer look and a lot of thought before diving in and trying to write unconsciously.

[sc111]

Of course themes emerge unconsciously when we write fiction. It's the nature of stories. From the story you tell at a party to the story you craft for the big screen.

A love story, simply by it's nature, will have time-worn themes. "Love conquers/heals all" (happily ever after ending). Or "It's better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all" (sad lovers torn asunder ending).

As I understand it, this is Boski's argument: The (universal) theme is inherent so why bother?

My answer:

Because the universal theme will not carry ACT 2.

Because you may fall into the trap of episodic scenes..

Because a plot-driven ACT 2, no matter how many car chases and exploding buildings, can become boring if the audience doesn't connect with the protag on an emotional level.

[sc111]

Joe9:

About your script concept -- the thing about History of Violence that I liked the most was the way Josh Olson handled Viggo's wife. Especially her reaction to discovering this side ofher husband.

The sex on the stairway scene for me - as a woman - was really enlightened in terms of Olson's awareness of women wanting an emotionally evolved mate yet also, on a core level, perhaps unconscious, wanting a mate who can indeed turn into a killer if the family was threatened.

I think Olson's handling of the violence theme when adapting the graphic novel for the screen deepened the story. I later found out, when Olson was posting on another board and I mentioned to him how much I liked that stairway scene, that this scene was the only one he added. It didn't exist in the source material.

Your story deals with a similar issue: that we've all been socialized to live in an orderly society handing our protection off to others to handle. But at our core we still have an innate instinct for survival and the potential for acts of violence if required to protect ourselves and our loved ones.

There was another news story this week where a kid walking in the park with his Dad was attacked by a brown bear. This Dad -- who looked like your average beer-bellied couch potato -- started beating on this bear so effectively that the bear gave up the kid, and turned on the Dad but he, still in a killing rage, fought so hard the bear gave up and took off.

I mean - if you looked at this guy anywhere else and someone said - "This guy beat the sh1t out of a 400 pound brown bear," you'd never believe it.

But clearly -- as a species - we humans as a group have a history of violence.

I think the potential themes in your script are way too juicy to leave to chance. I really hope the theme discussions here inspire you to look a little closer as it relates to your script.

And I'd love to read it when you're done. ;)

[sc111]

And my argument, from the perspective of a hopeful spec writer (and audience member, too), is that nobody really gives a toss about the inherent, intellectualized theme of an incident like this...

They just want to see a pot-bellied American couch potato beat the stew- beef out of a 400 pound black bear to save his kid! :eek: :D

Now, that's a sizzling MOVIE scene! (and it's got that universal theme I alluded to earlier already built in--not that it matters...)

It's a great scene. Downright gladiatorial. Crowds have been cheering spectacles like that since the Coliseum's heyday.

And that's what's gonna sell your script, not the embedded thematic message. ;)

Yes - but it's ONE SCENE. What happen after that scene?

More bear whooping scenes?

You mention Gladiator -- how about the film titled Gladiator. Are you saying there was no theme? Just butt-whooping scenes?

The more you argue your point I think all these lurking newbies who you want to protect from the "theme-ists" are going to recall all the plot-driven, theme light films that bored them to death and realize they need to look at theme when writing their own scripts.

[sc111]

I don't know.... It's not my story. I was just making the point about primacy again. And I think it holds.

Incidentally, there was a recent spec sale--ANIMALS--a disaster-pic about the planet's wild critters going ape-sh1t enmasse, attacking humanity. A first-timers' script that went for mid-six.

I'm guessing that one's got "more bear whooping scenes," probably sequence after sequence. Kinda like JURASSIC PARK.

But, again, if you honestly think theme is what's really closing those movie deals, all I can say is that I strongly disagree.


You're guessing. That's the operative phrase.

You read a two-sentence announcement on a tracking board and you jump to assumptions as to why it sold.

This is the problem -- you're drawing iron-clad conclusions about how to sell a spec based on little information. And then you offer your conclusions to new writers as gospel.

Ignoring the fact that working writers -- writers who not only sell specs but are assigned work -- all disagree with you. These same writers say "Execs ask about theme in meetings. Actors are attracted by theme. Directors are attracted by theme."

And you essentially continue to make your claims ignoring it all.

You're such a bright guy Boski I can't believe you're so dug on the topic.

[JeffLowell]

Which raises an interesting question, again, about the ultimate importance of Theme: Could "most people" (your audience) still find your film engaging, enjoyable, and satisfying while getting your intended theme entirely wrong?

(of course, I think they can...IMO, rarely does grasping the author's intended theme figure largely in the popular audience's enjoyment or critical judgement of a movie.)

If so--doesn't that strongly suggest something about the importance of theme? If the majority of your audience can completely miss your intended theme and still enjoy the movie, where does that put theme in the hierarchy of formal elements?

Just when I think I'm out...

This fallacy that you constantly refer to has no bearing. I get it. You can enjoy a script without spending time figuring out the theme. Can a person think a building is beautiful without knowing how it's built? Of course. Can you build a building without studying architecture? Good luck. Have fun. Don't expect me to visit it.

An audience member (or reader or producer or executive or actor or director) not doing the analytical work necessary to articulate the theme doesn't mean a thing. A well executed and interesting theme makes the plot, character and dialogue better, and the audience is more entertained by the movie because of it.

It's like someone gives you a big yummy cake, and you eat it without knowing the ingredients, so you declare the ingredients aren't important because you don't know them.

You don't need to know how much flour to use to eat a cake. You'd better figure it out if you want to bake the cake.

I'm guessing that one's got "more bear whooping scenes," probably sequence after sequence. Kinda like JURASSIC PARK.

You've really got to stop using scripts you haven't read as examples. I can't imagine a less effective debate tactic, and yet you use it over and over. I can understand why you don't reference more movies you've seen - because people point out why the theme was important in crafting the plot and characters arcs, and informing the dialogue... but still.

[sc111]

Jeff makes excellent points.

Another point I meant to make to Boski -- if audiences were only looking for theme-less entertainement they could spend their time watching You-tube videos.

Audiences have more options for mind-candy entertainment now.

Films need to offer something more. Something they can't get anywhere else.

[sc111]

Also, Boski -

You mention the recent sale. Quote:

"Incidentally, there was a recent spec sale--ANIMALS--a disaster-pic about the planet's wild critters going ape-sh1t enmasse, attacking humanity. A first-timers' script that went for mid-six."


Gee golly - wild animals attacking society. Hmmmm. No theme possibilities at all. Nope. Just actions scenes.

What possible theme could there be -- it's just a rip-em-up script about critters going bonkers. It couldn't have anything to do with humankind destroying nature and their natural habitat. Nope. Couldn't be. Just a whole lot of butt-kicking set pieces. Just like Jurassic Park -- because we all know there was no real theme in Jurassic Park, a THEME PARK with dinosaurs.

[twk69045]

I just read animals and to be honest, I wasn't sure whether it was focusing on environmentalism or making a political statement.

A side note, the dialogue killed the script for me. Did it really sell that big?

[JoeNYC]

boski says, "...if you honestly think theme is what's really closing those movie deals, all I can say is that I strongly disagree."

-- boski, you are one stubborn dude.

With all these intelligent posts on the important role theme plays in enriching a story, you haven't budge on your argument that the primacy of plot and plot alone is the main factor in script sales.

You read all about this concept selling and that concept selling and you assume it was because of the primacy of plot.

Have you actually talked to buyers? Agents? Writers who've sold? Did they actually say it was because of the primacy of plot that A-list writer sold a script for $1,000,000?

Oscar winner "Million Dollar Baby" didn't sell because of primacy of plot. It sold because Warner Bros. didn't want to piss off Clint Eastwood. Why do you think Clint was so drawn to that story and wanted to championed it?

I'll bet its powerful themes played a strong part.

Knowing what I know about the craft and business of screenwriting, which isn't as much as others around here, I can't believe that all the other elements working with plot doesn't have an important role in sales.

It doesn't make sense that the majority of time it's primacy of plot -- only.

A killer high concept, or a low concept that connects with the right person will get your story requested, but selling depends on its execution, meaning how well ALL the elements are executed.

Sure, a script could sell for the concept, but if the buyer feels the execution isn't strong, he may replace the writer.

I know when a writer pitches in a room he may only pitch plot and character and not get too deep into theme and a pitch could sell, but again if all the elements aren't executed properly, it'll be a failure.

I know concentrating on plot (Joe9 says plot and character) and theme will take care of itself has worked out for you, though this conclusion is based on short term and not long term endeavors, so the assumption is flawed in my opinion, but do you truly believe this is sound advice for the majority of members who are looking for a career in screenwriting?

Theme will take care of itself? For every script a writer will write -- be it 10, 20, 30 -- the theme will organically evolve powerfully and coherently?

Are you sure this will happen every time? To be honest, I'm not so sure?

If a writer takes the time and effort to learn to get an understanding on how to implement theme properly, then he can be 100% sure?

Edited to add: This is absolutly my last post in this thread.

[R.D. Wright]

Okay, I've got this great concept for a movie. It's called GROUNDBLOG DAY.

It's about a struggling writer who goes to a website for knowledge and inspiration, but instead he keeps seeing the same thread over and over and over. It's really weird because all the viewpoints were expressed in like the first ten posts, yet it just keeps repeating new variations of the same statements by the same people. And what's really strange is that everyone agrees that the thing in the topic is necessary, but no one can pin down exactly what the thing is. So they just debate it as though one essential thing can be more important than another essential thing.

I haven't figured out the ending yet, but I think the point of the story has to do with the way some folks are unwilling to let go of their own one-sidedness in favor of a broader awareness. Or perhaps the message is that some are just too proud to face their own shortcomings, like an alcoholic who clearly has a problem but is still in denial.

I guess it's about human nature.

[joe9alt]

Okay, I've got this great concept for a movie. It's called GROUNDBLOG DAY.

It's about a struggling writer who goes to a website for knowledge and inspiration, but instead he keeps seeing the same thread over and over and over. It's really weird because all the viewpoints were expressed in like the first ten posts, yet it just keeps repeating new variations of the same statements by the same people. And what's really strange is that everyone agrees that the thing in the topic is necessary, but no one can pin down exactly what the thing is. So they just debate it as though one essential thing can be more important than another essential thing.

I haven't figured out the ending yet, but I think the point of the story has to do with the way some folks are unwilling to let go of their own one-sidedness in favor a broader awareness. Or perhaps the message is that some are just too proud to face their own shortcomings, like an alcoholic who clearly has a problem but is still in denial.

I guess it's about human nature.

:rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

[JeffLowell]

First off, we didn't copy another movie. I know there's been an undercurrent in these debates to somewhat diminish that script and sale by suggesting that we consciously--or unconsciously--copied FREE WILLY.

God help me, I searched for the term "Free Willy" and came up with these (bolding mine):

It's a kid-and-animal script in the vein of FREE WILLY. And the development went like this:

Basic premise first: A kid raising a bird of prey in a contemporary urban setting would be a cool family film.

Then, this question: What urban setting would be the neatest and what kinda kid could maximize the dramatic/emotional impact of a story like this?
Answer: Housing projects in the inner city and an adolescent kid in danger of being lost to the streets.

(I mean, this is pure After School special stuff, not rocket science. This kind of kid character in this kind of situation is pretty stock. But it works well enough in this kind of movie.)

The most original and appealing thing about the story is the basic concept: A kid raises and trains a hawk in the inner city.

Then I watched a bunch of similar films to analyze their structure, including FREE WILLY a buncha times, taking notes on plot structure. Inciting Incidents/Act 1 Turning Point/Act 2 complications/Big Gloom/Act 2 Turning Point/Climax/Resolution.

Then I plotted the story out, thinking of ways to make the key plot beats work as cinematic set-pieces. Inciting Incident: okay, about 10 or 15 minutes in, the kid's gotta meet the hawk for the first time, and be affected by the experience. Great--how can I amp up that necessary plot moment to make it as dramatic as reasonably possible. Make it a set-piece.

Same process goes for all the other plot beats till the end. I mean, at this point of planning, the kid's basically a cardboard cut-out being inserted like a place-holder into key plot moments.

Then continued this process to develop the more minor plot beats until all the gaps were filled in. Until I could stand back and look at my entire plot laid out and see clearly that I had a story whose structure hit all the beats just like the produced movies I'd studied.

Yes. Absolutely. This is probably the main technique for making your script read like an actual MOVIE and not something else.

Like the established pros who've chimed in have already said: this is part of learning to be a professional screenwriter.

Studying and mimicking established movie structure & formula is half the battle of learning to write a marketable script.

The other half is coming up with a new concept or story to lay over that structure and formula.

And for new screenwriters, trust me, it'll take all your creative skills & instincts to just do those 2 things well enough to write a script professional readers will respond to.

We came up with what we thought was a good concept for a kid-and-animal movie, and before we wrote it, we watched the top-grossers in the category and as many others as we could find.

We took copious notes on basic structure and even formula: these movies are full of orphan kids, for example. And the orphan's usually having a particularly rough time when the movie opens. (we didn't make our kid an orphan...:) just estranged him from his absentee father...)

We noted how the various structural elements in the basic 3-act paradigm typically played out for this kind of movie:
Inciting Incident: kid sees/meets the animal for the first time.
Plot Point 1: the story really starts here, when the kid & animal get together and start the bonding process...
Idyllic Interlude: most of the movies have one of these sequences, where the kid and the animal really deepen their bond and generally have fun together. This sequence is often done as a montage or quick series of scenes.
The Big Gloom: Kid loses the animal--often to evil authority figures--or the animal gets hurt, almost dies etc.
Plot Point 2: Kid and animal are reunited, but only to pursue the story's most dramatic action that will now take them to the Climax.
Climax: Almost always upbeat. Kid & animal get what they both want, even if this means they'll never see each other again: FREE WILLY.

So you studied and mimicked similar movies (primarily Free Willy), making sure your story laid out beat for beat against them, then populated your movie with the same characters with the same problems (the orphan kid, the evil authority figure), and you don't see how you might just maybe have ended up sharing a theme?

FREE WILLY with feathers is a marketing spin. Kinda like [I]A James Bond-type finds out he has a teenaged daughter...

You took movies like Free Willy and thought of a "new concept or story to lay over that structure and formula." I have a spy in my movie that I describe as a James Bond-type. My movie is unlike any James Bond movie, because it's not a spy adventure. It's a relationship story with action set pieces.

You can see the difference, can't you?

I think it's safe to say that neither Jeff nor I engaged in any paint-by-numbers plagiarism, whatever our differences in how we approach theme.

I'm not accusing you of plagiarism - I don't think anyone is. Honestly, I don't think you did anything wrong. I think it happens all the time - someone thinks "I've got an idea like Big - I'm going to break down Big and figure out where the beats should come." But I don't think it leads to particularly original work - there's a reason everyone who read your script started describing it to you as Free Willy with feathers.

Once in awhile someone wants to make a new Free Willy. Sometimes, it's actually a good strategy.

But it's a little odd to get offended by people accusing you of doing exactly what you've described doing on more than one occasion.

----

(The funniest thing about all of this is that I have a movie coming out in January that I just realized is very much in the mold of the movies you're talking about. Complete with orphans!)

[amandag]

bump.





Just kidding. :bounce:

[reddery]

Call me silly, but I really like the idea of a troubled child identifying with birds.

Empire of the Sun was one of my favorite movies as a child. You might want to check that out. Boyz in the hood also strikes be as a important inner city movie about someone over coming adversity

Maybe a story of a child that faces adversity with-in a city's ghetto, finds birds as a simple escape from his life. Something that builds to him joining the airforce, or idk finding a big brother that is an airforce pilot.

Goodluck

[Joe Unidos]

It seems to me that theme is a necessary plot tool, if one wants approach it in a more cynical manner. For me personally, theme is what I use to to boost the emotional resonance of my subplots. They imform the theme (and therefore the main plot) by acting as either an amplification or counterpoint. It unifies the whole and adds a whallop to a part of the story that might otherwise drift un-connected.

Think about a well-written TV drama B story, and the way it can carry great emotional resonance despite scant screen time --that's the writer using theme to her advantage, and it's a important tool that goes far beyond any esoteric screenwriting theory.


I dunno. Maybe it's just me...

[sc111]

Boski --

On your point about using the beats of Free Willy which resulted in your script having an inherent, automatic, genre-related theme. my thoughts:

All scripts, in all genres, have certain structure beats
based on the heroric journey template.

Call to action.
Obstacles
Helpers
Antagonistic force(s).
Commitment to goal.
All hope is lost.
Triumph over obstacles/antagonist
etc.

All of which assures the good guy/gal will win (over-arching, universal, Hollywood-preferred theme) no matter what the genre. And he/she will be changed (arc) at the end of the journey.

And I say - so what?

While you settle for genre-inherent and universal hero's journey themes, others write to themes specfic to their protag's story and psyche.

It's the difference between the broadest of platitutional themes that can be found in the bible (thou shall not kill) verses crystalized, focused themes rife with zeitgeist (collateral damage is acceptable to protect oil supplies).

It's the difference between generic, out of central casting good guy/bad guy characters (because they're stock characters for your chosen genre) and fresh, complex characters which intrigue actors to sign on.

In my opinion, sticking with broad themes during the writing process leaves the writer vulnerable to meandering, over-writing, and extraneous scenes that only work in the broadest sense of your story.

And as others have said -- the crystalized theme is your roadmap through the forest of confusion a developing script can often be.

I really don't understand how you can dismiss all this as it relates to your own work.

It seems like you're willing to risk self-sabotage to win your point on a message board.

If you have a great, high-concept, working it thematically can only make it better.

[twk69045]

Most family friendly movies aimed at kids DON'T have very complex themes as a rule.

True, but they do spell out the theme so it's made clear to everyone in the audience, particularly the young ones.

[EJ Pennypacker]

Actually, I think this thread almost merits a move into FAQ.

Here's an old post from Tao.

I am re-posting and adding to my response to the "on the nose" thread because it really got me thinking...

Theme is the most widely misunderstood screenwriting concept. Time and again I see people refer to theme as "the message" of a film - as if the purpose of theme in the context of story is to hide a platitude in there somewhere that everyone will hear and agree with.

The great films with mature, developed themes do not do this. Rather their stories become testing grounds for provocative thesis/antithesis dialectics. The great discussions of philosophy are embodied by the story, played out with characters with contradictory views of the world or on two opposite sides of a philosophical conundrum. George Bernard Shaw's plays are wonderful examples of the "dialectical" method. Embody two schools of thought in two different characters and let them go at it.

A theme is an "idea that recurs in and pervades a work of art or literature".

But just to have a recurring idea or motif is not enough - it is the quality of that idea that will determine the quality of your story.

A powerful story has what McKee calls "a controlling idea" and what I like to call a "thesis". If we recall our high school composition classes, a successful essay contains a thesis that is somewhat provocative. And ideally a thesis that has a compelling antithesis.

You are forwarding an argument which you will then buttress with facts, opinions and anecdotes. If you write a composition with the controversial thesis: "Love is better than hate" you are asking the reader to sit through your essay bored out of their minds. No reasonable person will dispute that contention. It isn't really a thesis - it's a platitude, a piece of pablum. And most insidious to a writer - it is not a point of view about the world that shows an independent and original perspective.

Writers are supposed to be people that put forward ideas that may not be immediately accepted. When Henrik Ibsen wrote "A Doll's House" with its stunning (for the time) thesis that motherhood and domesticity were not always benevolent feminine traits but just as often prisons that prevented women from individuating as fully separate human beings - his audience wasn't ready to hear that message, and burned the theater to the ground. There were riots.
Ibsen was a foremost dramatist, but he was also a forward thinker and philosopher. He was acutely attuned to issues of the day.

When we speak of theme in screenplays, we're really speaking about the writer behind the story. Who are you? What are your opinions about the world? What are your most carefully held beliefs about human beings, nature, God, social systems and the way these forces interact with each other? Does your story reflect your perspective on the world? Or does it seek merely "not to offend"?

We start with our opinions -

ex. "Even in our most intimate moments we are crafting "versions" of ourselves; total honesty is impossible"

or "the most idealistic people are often the most dangerous".

We take those opinions and imagine a story that magically brings those opinions to life.

"Persona" by Ingmar Bergman takes this premise: that total honesty with the other is impossible - and creates a story about a nurse sent to care for an actress who has lost the power of speech. In the stripped down relationship between these women, we will constantly be tempted to think: honesty is possible - these two women will connect somehow - and yet the story continues its inevitable push to prove its controlling idea.

No "theme" is truly active in a story unless it is challenged inside the context of the story.

"Lawrence of Arabia" spends two hours showing us the unshakable force of will that drives Lawrence to unify the Arabian forces. It also shows us his tremendous idealism and conviction that his ideas about this unification are in service to a higher good. We are tempted in the story to say: "yes, he is right, his ideas are so perceptive and correct that even amoral means would be acceptable in achieving his ends"...and yet the inevitable force of the story ultimately illustrates to us the painful truth that "idealistic people are often the most dangerous" as we see Lawrence's moral collapse.

Theme is not some "element" of screenwriting, tossed in as an afterthought like gorgonzola cheese into a salad. Theme is the REASON WE WRITE - the convictions as people that we wish to share with our fellow men. We may explore different themes in different works but the great film artists (Bergman, Woody Allen, Fellini, Lean, Chaplin et al) usually return to the same themes again and again because those ideas are their preoccupations as PEOPLE. How can life have meaning if we know it ends in death? How can there be a loving God in a universe filled with suffering? How do social systems become more powerful than the people that created them?


"How can there be a loving God in a universe filled with suffering?" is a philosophical question. It is NOT a thesis.

"By definition, there cannot be a loving God in a universe filled with suffering" IS a thesis. It is a statement of belief that chooses one side of a philosophical question. This is what is meant by the hackneyed phrase "making a statement". It's picking sides in a war of ideas.

Our controlling idea or thesis emerges from a consideration of our most deeply held beliefs. The idea chooses sides. It is a statement of belief.

Story emerges from the "testing" of our thesis against the hard shoals of its antithesis. The strong story flirts with antithesis - "maybe jake can rise above his past and be redeemed by love" quite seriously before reconnecting with thesis "most often, we all live in a "chinatown" of the spirit, a desolate place full of sin and regret, and even the prospect of love cannot get us out."

Most often antithesis represents our protagonists HOPES for how the story will turn out, and what that result will allow him to conclude about life in general.

Most often thesis represents our protagonists REALITY, the painful place of wisdom reached at the end of the story, where he is "sadder but wiser" as a result of having the controlling idea proven to him by events.

In our use of thesis and antithesis, we the writers are the gods, the Fates of our imaginary worlds. We seek to create worlds where our controlling ideas are natural laws to be resisted and ultimately proven by events to the protagonist.

The protagonist is the stand-in for our skeptical audience member that doubts our idea - "no, the world is not this way" - and then yields to the wisdom of our idea as the argument is well reasoned, rebuttals to the antithesis are made, and the story stands as proof of our argument.

Your thesis - or "theme" if you prefer the weaker word - is your ARGUMENT. The argument your story makes on behalf of a way of seeing the world.

Theme, thesis, controlling idea better not be "on the nose" but IN THE BONES of your story - or your story will not compel or move us as you hope it might.

The strongest controlling ideas in movie take provocative stances on human morality, theology and philosophy. And controlling ideas transcend genre. Science fiction is often the breeding ground for the most exotic and fully realized themes (2001, not Armageddon).

Theme is the reason you write the story. It's what you have noticed about the world that you want to share. It is your cynicism, your hope, your delight, your wariness - distilled to a single observation.

Theme is not something you implant into a story, it is something you interpret out of a story so that you can weave it in more effectively. Your themes are lurking quietly in the shadows of everything you have written (unless you have no talent).

Go look for them and bring them more fully to the surface.

EJ

[Rantanplan]

Beautifully said. Thanks for finding and re-posting. It's a keeper.

[Ralphy W]

Theme. All the cool kids are doing it.

[Rantanplan]

Either way, it's usually the director who gets credit for the theme :)

"The work of So and So tends to explore the darker side of human nature and suggests that..."

"Director Such and Such has long been fascinated with the theme of..."

Oh well...