Testing your Premise...

[EJ Pennypacker]

So La Femme had an interesting post a while back on Premise Testing, but I wanted to debate and go deeper to just what makes a solid, commercial, Hollywood premise, and just what we should be thinking of/ ticking off on our Premise Testing List.

From La Femme's old post on Premise Testing, she says:

“Here is a worksheet I would recommend using for every premise you come up with. Simply fill it out in pencil and voila, watch the skeleton of your story come together.


Title:

Premise line (http://scriptdepartment-tagging.jiglu.com/overlay/4211443416e3c9b701170b1edcd5019e/premise%20line):Genre (http://scriptdepartment-tagging.jiglu.com/overlay/4211443416e3c9b701170b1edcd5019e/genre):Hook (http://scriptdepartment-tagging.jiglu.com/overlay/4211443416e3c9b701170b1edcd5019e/The%20Hook):

Theme:

World (location/situation):

Main Character:
Wants/Needs
Flaw
Age/stage of life

Antagonist:
motivation/goals:

Set up or inciting incident:

1st act break event:

Midpoint reversal:

2nd act break event:

Ticking Clock:

Showdown or Climactic Scene:

How does this story fit into the current zeitgeist?

What age is the audience for this story idea?

What is universally resonant about this story?

Approximate Budget:

List Three Movies which are in ANY way similar:
When was each released?
What was the box office?”

Now, the above is a solid breakdown of your idea. But I wanted to go deeper still and create a Premise Testing List of things writers should/could be thinking about for amping up that Hollywood mainstream idea.

So I'll start off with...

1) CASTABLE.

Are your protag or antag - or even supporting cast members - "castable"? I remember reading GALAHAD, and thinking "Wow, who wouldn't want to play ANY of these characters?". You've got Lancelot. King Arthur. Galahad. And lots and lots of famous and popular characters -- all of these are "castable" roles that I'd imagine any actor would kill to play.

2) RELATABLE.

KNOCKED UP is a great premise because we've all (at least most of us) have had a "scare" moment with someone, and KNOCKED UP takes it to its limits and presents the idea of: What if someone you had a one night stand with, you got pregnant? That’s a relatable idea. One that I think male and female's alike can relate to easily. Therefore "relatable" in a premise would be a bonus that makes your concept even more attractive to Exec's in Prod. Co. and Studios, right?

3) OVERSEAS ATTRACTION.

If THE MUMMY: TOMB OF THE DRAGON EMPEROR isn't a blatant attempt to "cash in" on the ever growing Asian market, I don't know what is. KUNG FU PANDA pi$$ed off the Chinese Government, because they said they should've thought of that premise themselves, not the US. Clearly commercial ideas need to travel well overseas (isn't it something like half the money a project will make in its lifetime - will come from overseas markets?) so clearly it’s time to think about ideas that will play out well all around the world.

4) FRANCHISE.

Okay, one movie can sum this up nicely. PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN. Whether you love or hate them (or think Ted & Terry are some of the smartest writers in Hwood) "franchise" is something we should all hope to cash in on (and we'll be laughing to the bank).

If anyone else has other things to add to this, then let the debate carry on...!

EJ

[Raw_and_Vital]

Good list.

I am wondering about one thing. RELATABLE.

i personally think this one is up for discussion. I enjoy a movie that I can relate to. But I also like the kind of movie that is something I can't.

Cloverfield for instance. I can't relate to having any experience with a monster attack, But it puts me in this danger zone that I am not used to being involved in. I get to experience it for a full hour and a half.

End of the World movies, (Independence Day, Deep Impact, Armageddon, etc) I don't think I can relate to any of these but I get to experience that sense of danger. That scenario that I am not used to being around.

I guess the whole "Relatable" subject all depends, in my opinion.

Thoughts?

[EJ Pennypacker]

My take on it is two things.

1) From a concept POV - but like you said I can't relate to CLOVERFIELD.

2) From a THEME POV. The movie WHEN HARRY MET SALLY is a great 'theme' that I think is extremely relatable to almost everyone in the world.

EJ

[mineymole]

This is very similar to the Writer's Boot Camp Unity Page.

[EJ Pennypacker]

Do you have anymore info on this mineymole?

EJ

[wcmartell]

I have a script tip on this - Happy Meals. That is, what are the potential promo tie ins? What's the other merchandise your film can sell - toys, games, etc? Companies are diversified these days - the parent company may own a toy company, and if they don't - they can make money licensing the toys.

But after hearing a million pitches from people, I think just having a great idea is usually the most important thing... most don't have enough imagination.

On Relatable: You want to relate to the characters and their emotional problems... in a world that is a major escape from reality. Emotional problem = relatable, plot problem = escape, fantasy. So SUPERBAD has characters we can relate to involved in this crazy quest where things get more and more out of control.

- Bill

[Biohazard]

...I can't relate to CLOVERFIELD.

Of course nobody can directly relate to being attacked by a gigantic creature from space, but we can all relate to the idea of saving a loved one from harm, whether it has happened to us or not.

There are several people that I know, that I'm such good friends with, that I'd run into a burning building to save them if I had to. Cloverfield connects with me in that kind of way. I know that I will never be in a situation like the one in the film, but there might be a time in reality where I am in a situation where someone I love and care about is in immediate, life-threatening danger. I just hope that never happens.

[Raw_and_Vital]

Good way at looking at it. I agree with you all. I guess I was looking at the scenario rather than the characters emotional voyage...

[Terrance Mulloy]

Of course nobody can directly relate to being attacked by a gigantic creature from space.

I can. It's called Marriage.

[Angeloworx]

Overseas Attraction definitely falls into a more complicated and deeper consideration. I think this issue falls into the RELATABLE(using the definition that Bill mentioned) category. Have themes resonate in the most humanistic level. Mummy and KungFu are fantastical stories... very simple, universal themes. The history and/or characters you exploit also indicate the audience it potentially attracts. Is it really necessary to consider if the movie is to be distributed internationally when writers or any creative player does not have any control over marketing or distribution?
I think the franchise idea could be instrumental in pitches more so than in the actual script. Then again, I haven't done many pitches.

[EJ Pennypacker]

Okay, so to add to the list, as per Bill M. suggestion, I'm gonna throw in:

5) HAPPY MEALS.

That is, what are the potential promo tie ins? What's the other merchandise your film can sell - toys, games, etc? Companies are diversified these days - the parent company may own a toy company, and if they don't - they can make money licensing the toys.

I'm also going to add:

6) EXPLOITING THE CONCEPT.

If your movie is about aliens invading Earth and destroying it, then we'd better see aliens invading Earth and destroying it. And those set-pieces should be big in scale and support your concept to the max. "Exploting the Concept" is something someone can probably explain better than me, but it's something people often overlook when they come up with a solid Hwood idea, but fail to cash-in on the original idea and exploit it to the max. because they get sidetracked easily within the plot.

EJ

[Laura Reyna]

You can divide your "premise testing" in half-- one part for story potential & development, the other for comercial viability. Some stories might be less commercial but still worth pursuing.

But if your primary goal is to sell it, you would definately put the commercial potential of the concept first & foremost.

[reddery]

You have to be joking with this list and examples

[EJ Pennypacker]

You have to be joking with this list and examples

I'm not joking. Just trying to put together a list that maybe helpful to people who want to think along mainstream, commerical and Hollywood ideas. In the spirit of debate and conversation, I thought it would prove interesting to talk about it and form one.

Is thinking commerical and mainstream a joke to you, reddery? Or the idea of "forming a list" that helps create one? I dont see any harm in either.

EJ

[EJ Pennypacker]

Adding a seventh idea from an old posted check list from CE...

7) CONFLICT.

Does the premise instantly present conflict or the notion of one?

EJ

[DavidK]

I might be missing something but I've always had a simpler test of premise which is to ask if it has an intrinsic dramatic logic which is well illustrated through human behavior. If that works, most of the other stuff seems to fall into place.

Also, the response to your premise shouldn't be "Eh?".

[EJ Pennypacker]

Actually DavidK. It would help to probably add to the list:

8) LITMUS TEST.

When you pitch your idea to people, they overwhelmingly response positively and enthusiastic.

EJ

[DavidK]

Agreed. Similar to passing what I call the 'so what?' test.

(Or as Charles Grodin called it in Midnight Run, the 'litmus configuration test'.)

[EJ Pennypacker]

I might be missing something but I've always had a simpler test of premise which is to ask if it has an intrinsic dramatic logic which is well illustrated through human behavior.

Wouldn't the above fall under RELATABLE? Maybe I'm missing something...

EJ

[DavidK]

It probably could fall under relatable and you're probably not missing anything, but this is an R&R weekend for me so...

[reddery]

EJ,
I think your heart is in the right place, but I think most of these movies could be described as created by studio executives or comparable to Scorsese's passion projects.

To understand film, you have to look at the history of it. who changed it and why it changed(...for the better?)

pre-1930's
D. W. Griffith, as misplaced as his ideals were, he was a master of marketing.
Same with Chaplin.

"UA was incorporated as a joint venture on February 5, 1919 by four of the leading figures in early Hollywood: Mary Pickford, Charles Chaplin, Douglas Fairbanks, and D. W. Griffith."-wikipedia.org
(note none of them are just screenwriters)

-Josef von Sternberg bring the world of cinema into a new era

Post 1930's
Then you have noir starting with Horror and moving to Crime features.
Which would be Howard Hawks, then John Huston & Alfred Hitchcock.

starting a little bit later but continuing at the same time are Westerns and War movies. John Ford and John Wayne(Howard Hawks)

Also Sci-fi takes over a percentage of the market, that horror left.

-Billy Wilder/Orsen Welles brings us into a new era

1960's Death of Our Hero or the Flawed Protagonist(the dreams of Stardom)

-Hitchcock and Kubrick bring us into a new era

The think the big ones are Lolita(1962) and Psycho(1960), but this also the time of Sergio Leone, as war, westerns, and crime become Espionage films, James Bond is introduced in Dr. No(1962), Lawrence of Arabia(1962) Fist Full of Dollars(1964), starting with Kubrick's The Killing(1956) and John Huston's Asphalt Jungle(1950), Alfred Hitchcock's Rope(1948)

This is about as much as I can write in one sitting... Didn't even get into Jack Nicholson, Polanski, Spielberg, George Lucas, or Peter Fonda.

PS: forgot to add Comedy, but I did mention Billy Wilder.

[Popcorntreect]

How about:

I WANT THAT OSCAR

Your protagonist is mentally or physically disabled, growing up in the south during the 50s and 60s. This can be snuggled under CASTABLE, but I think it deserving of it's own thing.

++++

THE LITTLE INDIE THAT COULD

You've taken out all those car chases and replaced with them with pregnant high school kids discussing Argento films. Your film is castatable, relatable, oscar worthy and can be made for under $10 million.

[Laura Reyna]

EJ,
I think your heart is in the right place, but I think most of these movies could be described as created by studio executives or comparable to Scorsese's passion projects.

To understand film, you have to look at the history of it. who changed it and why it changed(...for the better?)

pre-1930's
D. W. Griffith, as misplaced as his ideals were, he was a master of marketing.
Same with Chaplin.

"UA was incorporated as a joint venture on February 5, 1919 by four of the leading figures in early Hollywood: Mary Pickford, Charles Chaplin, Douglas Fairbanks, and D. W. Griffith."-wikipedia.org
(note none of them are just screenwriters)

-Josef von Sternberg bring the world of cinema into a new era

Post 1930's
Then you have noir starting with Horror and moving to Crime features.
Which would be Howard Hawks, then John Huston & Alfred Hitchcock.

starting a little bit later but continuing at the same time are Westerns and War movies. John Ford and John Wayne(Howard Hawks)

Also Sci-fi takes over a percentage of the market, that horror left.

-Billy Wilder/Orsen Welles brings us into a new era

1960's Death of Our Hero or the Flawed Protagonist(the dreams of Stardom)

-Hitchcock and Kubrick bring us into a new era

The think the big ones are Lolita(1962) and Psycho(1960), but this also the time of Sergio Leone, as war, westerns, and crime become Espionage films, James Bond is introduced in Dr. No(1962), Lawrence of Arabia(1962) Fist Full of Dollars(1964), starting with Kubrick's The Killing(1956) and John Huston's Asphalt Jungle(1950), Alfred Hitchcock's Rope(1948)

This is about as much as I can write in one sitting... Didn't even get into Jack Nicholson, Polanski, Spielberg, George Lucas, or Peter Fonda.

PS: forgot to add Comedy, but I did mention Billy Wilder.

????

What does all this have to do with the original post & subject?

[Laura Reyna]

When I'm in the early stages of developing a concept & working on the logline, I always as myself questions along the lines of--

Is this situation inherenty emotional?

How can I make it more emotional?

What emotional response do I want to elicit from the audience?

What story elements or devices can I use to milk all the emotion out of this situation?

Making the audience feel something is our goal, so at some point we should think about emotions in all its facets.

If the premise doesn't have the potential for big emotions, you're gonna have to re-think it.

But would this fall under conflict or another heading? :confused:

[reddery]

????

What does all this have to do with the original post & subject?


An example of marketing trends over the last 100 years.

[EJ Pennypacker]

To add another to the list, I'm gonna go with:

9) COMMERCIAL TITLE.

Obviously a high-concept, commerical mainstream movie needs that zingy title. Does yours have that?

EJ

[EJ Pennypacker]

reddery,

I'll have what you're having.

EJ

[reddery]

reddery,

I'll have what you're having.

EJ

What... did you read my last Feature?

Last night -- CAFFINE!!! & sugar -- Pepsi and Toffee Peanuts.


Title: Dark Knight

Premise line:Genre:Hook: Batman returns to Gotham
to find a villain that mirrors his own violence towards
crime.

Theme:

World (location/situation): Dark world of Gotham City.
Place where murder and corruption is a everyday
jeopardy of life.

Main Character: Batman

Wants/Needs: Bring justice to the people who have
none

Flaw: is scared of his own power, going back to the
night his parents died

Age/stage of life: Prime of Life, nothing can’t be
accomplished

Antagonist: Joker

motivation/goals: wants the respect/fear that Batman has
-- uses his prestige to dictate and destroy Gotham's spirit

Set up or inciting incident: Harvey Dent runs for office

1st act break event: Joker releases a death list
containing Harvey and others.

Midpoint reversal: Gordon is killed?

2nd act break event: Harvey becomes two face,
kills Rachael

Ticking Clock: Batman races to save Rachael, but is confronted with the Jokers escape, ticking clock runs as Batman uses nefarious technology to stop the Joker's ultimate plan... turn everyone into killer like him.

Showdown or Climactic Scene: Harvey has become
everything he’s hated, batman confronts this and his
own reason for being a Hero.

How does this story fit into the current zeitgeist?
Over the top action, released during the summer

What age is the audience for this story idea? 12-34

What is universally resonant about this story? The reluctant
hero is spurned into action, by a over zealous antagonist.

Approximate Budget: 185,000,000

List Three Movies which are in ANY way similar:
Spider-Man
Spider-Man 2
Spider-Man 3

When was each released? July 18, 2008

What was the box office? 525,000,000

Hope this continues your thread and doesn't rerail it from it's orginal idea.


EJ, Maybe you could fill out one like this with Titanic? Compare the two.

[Popcorntreect]

I would change the Joker's motivations/goals and the climactic scene.

The Joker's goal is to destroy the spirit of Gotham. I think the climactic scene at the end is the "And...here… we...go!" scene. It ties in to his motivations.

That's just me though.

[ShaneBlackFan]

Reddery, the Ferry ticking clock in TDK is a last minute plot point. There is NO ticking clock in TDK other than Batman MUST stop The Joker from executing his haphazard plan <--- I guess that's the "ticking clock".

[reddery]

so noted and changed.

[EJ Pennypacker]

Reddery,

What I’ll do is hold up a movie I saw recently to the Premise Test List. With that said, NIGHT AT THE MUSEUM maybe cheating (as it fits what I’m aiming for almost perfectly), but I’m going to do another one of these lists on a recent spec that’s making the rounds which I think is amazingly high-concept, mainstream and commercial to the hills, and hits all the notes I’ve laid out.

So for those that haven’t seen the movie (which I find hard to believe) here’s the logline:

NIGHT AT THE MUSEUM

A newly recruited night security guard at the Museum of Natural History discovers that an ancient curse causes the animals and exhibits on display to come to life and wreak havoc.

1) CASTABLE.

Okay, so we know Ben Stiller played this role, but aside from the pay check, what would’ve drawn him to the role? Okay, so he clearly has conflicts with his son. Larry (Ben Stiller) is a dreamer, someone who can’t hold down a job, but when the chance to land a safe gig comes his way, and it also proves to his only son that he can be a normal, regular guy (and father) – Larry has to take this job no matter what. Aside from the internal issues at work, he clearly has a blast once the story hits its stride, as characters in the exhibit come to life and wreak havoc and it’s a fun ride as Larry struggles to learn his environment and save the museum from falling apart and destroying itself (and save himself from being fired and prove he can hold down a job). Aside from all the below as well, what actor wouldn't want to be involved in a production like this?

2) RELATABLE.

Now you can take this many ways - plot wise, theme or internal issues with character. Can we all relate to an idea of a museum coming to life at night? (okay, maybe not), but we all wish we could. But a good portion of the audience can relate to Larry’s troubles with his son, his dreamer qualities, and his need to find a decent job to prove he can “fit in” and be an adult. Also, it’s the classic fish out of water situation - which we can all relate to at one time of our lives. Out of all the beats, this is probably one of the weakest when comparing it to examples like WHEN HARRY MET SALLY.

3) OVERSEAS ATTRACTION.

Clearly, the premise of this idea would travel very well across the world. Museums are in all countries, and clearly everyone knows that if such an idea where to come to life, then being in a museum would be a fun experience. Taking a look at the BO results, from world-wide ticket sales, it made $571m, $250 of that is US ticket sales alone.

4) FRANCHISE.

NIGHT AT THE MUSEUM 2: BATTLE OF THE SMITHSONIAN is in the works, clearly this premise has legs.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1078912/

5) HAPPY MEALS.

I have no idea whether figures and/ or McDonald’s bought into the release of this movie, but it wouldn’t be hard to believe that lots of money was made from this release through the “Happy Meal” method.

6) EXPLOITING THE CONCEPT.

This was original posed as just a reminder that if you promise one thing, then you’d better do it from all angles and deliver big. Obviously NIGHT AT THE MUSEUM does this well with lots of creatures, characters and animals coming to life and causing havoc.

7) CONFLICT.

Going back to the logline again:

NIGHT AT THE MUSEUM

A newly recruited night security guard at the Museum of Natural History discovers that an ancient curse causes the animals and exhibits on display to come to life and wreak havoc.

Clearly within this premise structure there is CONFLICT in the form of the “newly” recruited night guard losing control of his museum he’s meant to protect – and face being fired unless he can control the exhibits that come to life and wreak havoc.

8) LITMUS TEST.

If we could go back before 2006 when this was released, I’m sure if anyone of us had come up with this idea and pitched it to family, friends or strangers, they would’ve bug-eyed and told you that was a GREAT IDEA!

9) COMMERCIAL TITLE.

While NIGHT AT THE MUSEUM is hardly a zinger, is does its job well.

EJ

[reddery]

see this goes back to what I was referring to in knowing marketing trends through the history of filmmaking.(this comes from a studio exec's class I was in while back)

So night of the museum is basically a reworked version of the Jurassic Park movies... Sci-Fi. So they took the idea of a Sci-Fi movie and reworked it into a Fantasy type of movie.

Wait we already have a Jurassic Park... A Museum!, but it's not alive, how could I bring it to life. Actually the same question raised in Jurassic Park. And before that the same question...

Where did that idea come from? Island of Doctor Moreau. Which is a Horror movie. With the orginal one being written by H.G. Welles in 1896.
Remakes in:1932-Island of Lost Souls, 1977-The Island of Dr. Moreau, 1996-The Island of Dr. Moreau. So they reworked a Horror Movie and made it into a Sci-Fi movie.

Social Darwinism at play?

(Texas Chainsaw Massicure -- Alien -- E.T.?) Happen upon a monster, but the revelation of character is definately supported by the individual Genre. Look at the ending and beginning of each film.

There is a new Jurassic Park being written by William Monahan:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0369610/

Here's another William Monahan story in Preproduction -- Tripoli (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0384621/)
This is the grand epic adventure of how William Eaton, a diplomat representing President Thomas Jefferson and the United States in North Africa, joined forces with Hamet Karamanli, the exiled heir to the throne of the Barbary Coast nation of Tripoli (now called Libya) in 1804 to overthrow a corrupt ruler (Hamet's brother) who had taken his place. Organizing a relatively small group of 500 soldiers comprised of U.S. Marines, Arabs and Greeks, Eaton successfully marched across 600 miles of desert to storm and capture the seaport of Derna in April, 1805. Eaton and his men then prepared to continue their fight all the way to the capital city of Tripoli... -IMDB.com (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0384621/plotsummary (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0384621/plotsummary))

sounds like the exact plot of Lawrence of Arabia

Note: I don't think anyone of these people are theives, but just products of social darwinism, as are our audiences.

[EJ Pennypacker]

I'd be interested to hear more of your studio class you were in. Did they teach you to just mine concepts from previous trends? I would've thought they'd just teach studio execs to mine from comics, childrens books and sequals/remakes...

Btw, NIGHT AT THE MUSEUM was originally a book from the 90's.

http://www.aiga.org/content.cfm/original-night-at-the-museum

EJ

[reddery]

I'd be interested to hear more of your studio class you were in. Did they teach you to just mine concepts from previous trends? I would've thought they'd just teach studio execs to mine from comics, childrens books and sequals/remakes...
EJ

:rolleyes:

Go to the Screenwriting Expo and check it out.

I've never been on that level of the business to really say, my comment was merely me paraphrasing someone elses ideas, but they all check out.


I would look this as more as a way to view a concept.


My concept has something similar to a hit movie in theaters now.
So...
I use that formula to understand what a studio exec might be looking for themselves.
Then,
might take that similar concept and place it in another genre from the orginal


This will probably be done as a writing for hire level. But, for spec sales, it probably works very well also.

HW isn't one entity. You have Many studios all working to own that Fridaynight, opening box office, weekend. So you have the ability to take your great concept to someone that is ready for it.

Lots of luck everyone