Opening Sequence - Length

[mad_r0]

I've always been a fan of interesting openings - and structure all my writing in the same vein.

So my current project, a family themed horror :eek: opens with the Antagonist and two supporting characters. The hero and sidekick doesn't appear until page 12.

So the with the one minute per page rule, is 12 pages too long for the protag intro? Is there an unspoken rule or law for such a thing?

[Joaneasley]

It sounds long, but the real gauge is how it affects your intended audience and readers. Are they hooked or losing patience waiting for the protagonist to take action?

If you spend that long before you introduce your protagonist, will you have time to let us get to know and like your protagonist before he's fully involved in the story? There are trade-offs, and you have to decide.

Would it work to cut back and forth between the antagonist and what the protagonist and sidekick are up to in their daily life, so we get to bond with them before they face the antagonist? My gut feeling is to either do that or find a shorter way to show what the antagonist is doing. But you can do anything you want if you can keep the audience's interest.

[dpaterso]

12 minutes into the film, I'd be mildly surprised to learn that the guy I've been watching all that time isn't the protag. I bet you could cut it in half if you really tried. :) Not that you have to...

-Derek

[Jenny]

I think it's a matter of tone and style. If it's clear we're watching a villian in his lair with his minions, and the villian is entertaining and frightening and we're spending 12 minutes wondering who could possibly stop him and it's all over-the-top and maybe even tipping towards campy - then I think you can do it.

If it's serious in tone and style, it's probably too long before introducing the real main character.

[THEUGLYDUCKLING]

here's a really simple answer. how many movies have ever been made where we don't see our hero for 15 minutes. Name one.

[Jenny]

Fargo? That's a guess - I haven't seen it in a while, somebody can correct me if I'm wrong.

[dpaterso]

Heh, you're right, Marge doesn't appear till Page 31 in the shooting script PDF. (Just read this one again last weekend.)

-Derek

[roscoegino]

Yeah, Fargo. But there's no confusion as to who the bad guy is. You know who the antag is pretty much from the beginning. Plus, it's more of an ensemble thing.

But Ugly has a point. There aren't many. I'd introduce the hero by page 10. But you dont need to listen to me. Of course every morsel leading up to that point has to mean something, has to be efficiently written.

[Jcorona]

Just thinking, maybe too far ahead.

You send your logline to someone telling him what your awesome hero has to do and that someone loves the logline.

Then he requests the script, starts reading and by page 3-5 starts asking himself, "Where's this awesome hero at?"

So he starts thinking other things instead of getting into the story.

And just a question, but what if you approach someone connected to certain actors you'd love to play this awesome lead role and you tell them that the lead doesn't appear until page 13? I don't think they'd be crazy over the idea.

But of course it could work. All I'm saying is I try not to put any speedbumps in my scripts. The smoother the ride the better.

I still do it, though, and I need to knock it off.

Good luck,

Corona

[wcmartell]

What is the *purpose* of those 12 pages?

Usually an opening without the protagonist is to introduce the antagonist - and in a horror script, that means introducing the monster or killer or ghost or whatever.

Here's one of mine, with four and a third pages of antagonist before we introduce the protagonist:
http://www.scriptsecrets.net/screenplays/gatorbaby2.pdf

I think you may be "starting too early" - you want to start the story in progress, when things are already in motion. Find the way to give the audience information through things happening... and they don't have to know every detail up front, usually just the basic threat the antagonist poses. All of the details of how the antagonist came to be can be parcelled out later in the script. In fact, that's usually one of the things that happens in horror scripts - the protag has to figure out where the ghost came from or how the monster came to be or the secret of why Freddy or Jason became a killer.

You usually want to get to your protag before page 10, and the sooner the better. So I'd trim that puppy up. Figure out what is important in those 12 pages and trim the rest.

- Bill

[Biohazard]

here's a really simple answer. how many movies have ever been made where we don't see our hero for 15 minutes. Name one.

Star Wars.

[THEUGLYDUCKLING]

well, okay then. i'll put an addendum. Unless you are albert hitchcock or george lucas don't introduce your character so late.

[THEUGLYDUCKLING]

yahooo. zip-ba-de-da.

[wcmartell]

Star Wars.

That's a source material thing. The two bickering dopes are the identification characters in HIDDEN FORTRESS, and become involved with the Princess whose kingdom has been destroyed and the renegade warrior who is protecting her from the Black Knight.

In a way, maybe R2D2 and C3PO *are* the leads in teh STAR WARS movies, too - since they are in all 6 of them and Luke isn't.

But, as Mark Norman sez, you have to get your protagonist up and running by page ten. And he has an Oscar, and was nominated for an Oscar long before getting that one.

- Bill

[Laura Reyna]

A 12 minute sequence-- whether your protag is in it or not-- is too long for today's movies. You really should cut that down.

In movies, if the protag isn't seen for a little bit, it's usually b/c the villian is doing his thing or situation is being set up. Say your Hero is a secret service or FBI guy who has to solve a political assassination... it's fine to show the killing at the beginning & have your hero come in later.

Take a DVD of a recent movie-- one where the Hero isn't in the opening sequence-- and time it. See how long it takes for him to show up. I bet it's under 10 minutes.

And just to add....

I've seen FARGO umpteen times, it's one of my favorite movies. It has TWO protags: Jerry & Marge.

It's both Jerry's story & Marge's story. Really. Jerry is an anti-hero.

And Jerry is in the opening seq where he goes to meet & hire the kidnappers.

[Scripted77]

here's a really simple answer. how many movies have ever been made where we don't see our hero for 15 minutes. Name one.

That's a good question, although I was watching War Games a couple months back, and I was shocked at how long it took to meet Broderick's character. I didn't clock it, but I'd guess 15 or even 20 minutes...

Then again, I was shocked, so maybe that's the important part.

Then again again, I still like the movie.

[mad_r0]

Beautiful. I had a feeling it was a tad stretched out but like every insecure writer, had to be told it of course.

Will start cutting.

Oh, and and thanks all for the examples.

[roscoegino]

A 12 minute sequence-- whether your protag is in it or not-- is too long for today's movies. You really should cut that down.

In movies, if the protag isn't seen for a little bit, it's usually b/c the villian is doing his thing or situation is being set up. Say your Hero is a secret service or FBI guy who has to solve a political assassination... it's fine to show the killing at the beginning & have your hero come in later.

Take a DVD of a recent movie-- one where the Hero isn't in the opening sequence-- and time it. See how long it takes for him to show up. I bet it's under 10 minutes.

And just to add....

I've seen FARGO umpteen times, it's one of my favorite movies. It has TWO protags: Jerry & Marge.

It's both Jerry's story & Marge's story. Really. Jerry is an anti-hero.

And Jerry is in the opening seq where he goes to meet & hire the kidnappers.

good points

[Biohazard]

well, okay then. i'll put an addendum. Unless you are albert hitchcock ...


WHAT?!:eek:

[reddery]

ever notice how long it takes the antagonist to be show on screen in a Fincher film?

As for fargo... Jerry Lundegaard could be a tragic hero, but his opposition to everyone and everything really could only leave him as the classic antagonist. Think about the latter part of the second act -- who's the antagonist that knows what everyone else is doing?

the same question could be asked about Saving Private Ryan... i guess.
-The protagonist taking awhile to get on screen. or even the first question I asked... is there a definable antagonist or merely opposition to the protagonist's goal?

[reddery]

In a way, maybe R2D2 and C3PO *are* the leads in [the] STAR WARS movies, too - since they are in all 6 of them and Luke isn't.

that's a good point r2d2 isn't made till later by anakin

-Marc Norman ... he also wrote Cutthroat Island

[zarker99]

An old military maxim is "learn to obey before you command".
A similar one for any beginner is "Learn the rules before you try bending them".

Whoever wrote the scripts with delayed protag entrances knew exactly why it was good to do it that way.

I've heard that magazine editiors, due to the large amount of unsolicited material they get, will discard subs before even reading it if: a) it has the wrong type of envelope; b) is bound in the wrong way; c) has the wrong font; d) doesn't have a cover letter, n) any other piffling thing which doesn't fit the sub rules.

If you're competing with 20,000+ other spec scripts for the attention of a hollywood reader, and he/she isn't impressed by your name, and your script doesn't match what they think a 'good script structure' is very quickly, how likely are they to toss it aside and pick up the next one on that pile that has to be eliminated by lunchtime?

I believe script structure isn't so much what makes a good movie, but what readers think their bosses will like.

B'jabers! What possessed me to want to get into this business...?

[GhostWriter]

In the first Pirates of the Carribean, it takes forever before we meet Jack Sparrow. I’ve never timed it, but it has to be at least 10-12 minutes.

[JoeNYC]

mad says, "I've always been a fan of interesting openings - and structure all my writing in the same vein. ... The hero and sidekick doesn't appear until page 12."

-- First, I suggest that you be conscious of the fact not to allow for a desire to have a certain style overwhelm the substance, or hurt the entertainment of your story.

Not saying the opening that you have is wrong because I haven't read your story. Just talking in general.

Let's assume your opening pages are sound. You didn't start your story early, there's no overwriting, plot and structure's perfect, etc.

You wanna know if 12 pages in is too long to introduce the protagonist.

In my opinion, no.

Yes, there is a rule that one of the things that a writer needs to establish in the first 10 pages is the introduction of the hero/protagonist of the story.

And you'll see from reading major studios' produced scripts, not talking indies, that the majority would adhere to this rule, but there are exceptions to the rule... as long as it works.

For example, in "Witness" Harrison Ford's detective character isn't introduced until page 12. In fact, the antagonist wasn't even introduced until much later.

Did this, the antagonist and protagonist, being introduced late hurt my enjoyment of the opening 12 minutes of the script/movie? No.

I was thoroughly compelled and entertained with the Amish boy in the train station bathroom witnessing a murder by the antagonist's henchmen.

So, in summing up your question: Introducing your protagonist 12 pages in is fine... as long as it works.

And you'll find out if it works or not when you go through the feedback process.

[TwoBrad Bradley]

I'm a "put the protag on page one" kind of guy because it's not impossible to do so and, as the writer, I have a story to tell (and sell) and I don't want there to be any confusion about who the reader should be investing in.

I don't really have control of how the final movie is edited for the screen and a viewing audience.

If I recall correctly, the first versions of Star Wars had Luke on page one.

In PotC Elizabeth, the protag, is on page one.

[mad_r0]

mad says, "I've always been a fan of interesting openings - and structure all my writing in the same vein. ... The hero and sidekick doesn't appear until page 12."

-- First, I suggest that you be conscious of the fact not to allow for a desire to have a certain style overwhelm the substance, or hurt the entertainment of your story.

Not saying the opening that you have is wrong because I haven't read your story. Just talking in general.

Let's assume your opening pages are sound. You didn't start your story early, there's no overwriting, plot and structure's perfect, etc.

You wanna know if 12 pages in is too long to introduce the protagonist.

In my opinion, no.

Yes, there is a rule that one of the things that a writer needs to establish in the first 10 pages is the introduction of the hero/protagonist of the story.

And you'll see from reading major studios' produced scripts, not talking indies, that the majority would adhere to this rule, but there are exceptions to the rule... as long as it works.

For example, in "Witness" Harrison Ford's detective character isn't introduced until page 12. In fact, the antagonist wasn't even introduced until much later.

Did this, the antagonist and protagonist, being introduced late hurt my enjoyment of the opening 12 minutes of the script/movie? No.

I was thoroughly compelled and entertained with the Amish boy in the train station bathroom witnessing a murder by the antagonist's henchmen.

So, in summing up your question: Introducing your protagonist 12 pages in is fine... as long as it works.

And you'll find out if it works or not when you go through the feedback process.

I liked this. Valid opinions and food for thought. Thanks.

[wcmartell]

albert hitchcock

He directed THE OTHER MAN WHO KNEW TOO MUCH with that great scene at a concert in Alfred Hall.

- Bill

[DavidK]

WHAT?!

Are you hard of hearing? He said, UNLESS YOU ARE ALBERT HITCHCOCK.

I take it you're not. Still, it sounds like a familiar name, I can't quite think where I've heard it, but it will come to me...