Professional thieves

[Taotropics]

Curious if anyone has one-on-one access or suggestions on how to get access to actual thieves that would have committed armed robbery on eccentric targets in the early '70's in NYC. I realize this is quite specific...but you never know...I live in L.A.. Thanks.

[Bill Marquardt]

For once there is a question I hope does NOT get answered on this board. Good grief.

[Taotropics]

To further clarify for those that might not be such Nervous Nellies: many former thieves that have "paid their dues to society" are now consultants that advise on specific topics having to do with their former profession. Any direct or indirect knowledge of consultants like this would be of interest. Law enforcement pros could also provide insights. Thieves currently imprisoned could help (maybe someone has a relative or read an article). And the script I'm writing for a major studio and two movie stars might sound - God forbid - authentic - thus leading to sounder more rigorous entertainment for the film-going public. This is the kind of help that I'm looking for. Thanking any and all in advance. Even you, Mr. could-be-a-little-more-moderate Moderator.

[Bill Marquardt]

Actually, I don't moderate this forum, I moderate "Screenwriting" and "One on One", so I can be as immoderate as I choose here. :) Good luck in your quest for knowledge.

If one of our budding screenwriters here is a reformed armed robber, I'm sure he or she will help you out. We are a friendly bunch. We do have a rocket scientist on board, so I guess anything is possible.

******
add on: Doggone, I forgot. We do have a man on the board with direct knowledge of bestiality. He says it was a "friend" of his, but I have my suspicions. Funny thing is, it's the rocket scientist, Go figure. If you want to add a little spice to your script, I'll let him know.

[GirlinGray]

Wow, the 70's? That's a stretch. Define "eccentric targets"?

[Taotropics]

Thieves/ armed robbery/ seventies is really the triad that I'm looking for. Adding the "eccentric targets" would turn a feasible research attempt into something flat out impossible. The targets were hotels, in case you're curious - a true story I'm adapting. The book I'm working with is not as thorough about the thieves' style and methodology as I would like. Thanks.

[GirlinGray]

Boy, between the geographic distance, time elapsed, and nature of the crimes, that's tough. If you could go modern and extrapolate backwards, I'd hit up some parole officers to see if any of their people would be willing to talk to you. Or you could put out a call on alt lists and see what comes back to you. You run the risk that route of getting taken for a ride, or, if you don't get taken for a ride, it can be creepy dealing with people who can do real bad stuff to you if it strikes them. But you get a real taste of reality dealing with the real thing.

Good luck.

[Bill Marquardt]

Okay, let me take a different tack here and offer a suggestion. I am operating on the assumption that you are referring to large robberies or "heists" and not simple muggings. If this is the case, I would prefer that you use your imagination and concoct an elaborate scheme that is difficult, but not impossible, to pull off. I'm thinking along the lines of "The Thomas Crown Affair" and "The Anderson Tapes."

You may be sacrificing 100% authenticity that way, but you avoid the possiblity of penning a "how-to" flick. It might actually be more entertaining than showing the exact methods employed by the perpetrators, without sacrificing the realism.

A mundane way to rip off hotel rooms in the 70's, before electronic keys existed, would have been to use a postal worker in the city. In those days, all hotel keys were attached to a tag that read, "Drop in any mail box", in case a patron forgot to drop off his key at the desk before leaving. The tags often had the name of the hotel on it, although the smart places had only a post office box number. In a large city, dozens of keys might come through the mail in a single night. I know, because I worked in the post office of a major city in 1977 to 1980.

Inside the post office, all the keys are dumped into a tray and sent to a clerk who handles them separately from the regular mail. If the clerk were dishonest, he could steal the keys and later use them to break into hotel rooms. The clerk would also have the ability to match P.O. box numbers up with the hotels for those keys that didn't have the name on them.

I had this idea for a short story once, but gave up on it when the electronic keys came into vogue.

p.s. I still shudder to think that one of my fellow writers here might have mugged bag ladies for a living. (armed robbery of eccentric targets) :D

[GirlinGray]

Bill, making something up that is possible to pull off and re-enacting something that is possible to pull of is going to do the same thing, outline a robbery. And both require a knowledge of security measures and how to override them. I do not understand the distinction you are making.

[Bill Marquardt]

The difference is "difficult but not impossible". Maybe I should have said "extremely difficult but plausible".

In other words, make the methodology of the heist so technically difficult, that yes, a sophisticated and highly talented group of thieves with the right combination of expertise might pull it off, but not so simple that copycat amateurs will try it. "Gone in Sixty Seconds" comes to mind. I don't think anyone will try that; they don't have the skill or expertise or the master keys, but the plot was <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--> plausible<!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->.

I have the impression from the way Taotropics worded his question that he is seeking the exact methodology of how a particular set of crimes were committed. It might not be wise to expose that methodology. Without knowing the specifics, I can't say.

I have explained my hotel key scenario because the opportunity to exploit it no longer exists. Programmable card keys have eliminated that possibility, but it could have happened in the 70's. I thought it was a clever scheme because the police would at first be baffled at how locked hotel rooms were being robbed without forcible entry. In my original short story, which I never published, this plot was a backdrop to a story about the relationship of a father and son who were both detectives. Had I published the story back then, I might have been guilty of the very thing I am warning against. But, I'm a Nervous Nellie. :)

I realize there are other opinions on this type of thing, and I do not advocate censorship. I will not picket the studio. My concern is that something akin to a "How to Make a Bomb" web site will be produced. No need for it. My opinion.

[Taotropics]

Just to make certain everyone is completely confused, and utterly convinced that this story is incredible - I'm also interested in anyone with knowledge of Secret Service practices in the 70's. ie: the standard way they would advance an unplanned Presidential visit on the fly. My story has absolutely nothing to do with asassination attempts. Thanks for the thoughts so far.

[smartblawned]

Tao,
Have you checked the recent script sales on this site? There was a sale in the past month or two about a Manhattan hotel heist. Can't remember the name, but if you check back I'm sure you'll find it.

As far as Secret Service practice in the 70's (Hel-LO Echelon!), there are numerous sites on the web devoted to some of America's "secret" agencies and their questionable practices. You'll have to wade through a lotta muck, but there is some great reading if you have the time. There are also many "wannabes" posting on some of those sites, so be careful in your use, due to the dubious authenticity of some posters.

[Taotropics]

smart - thanks for the lead. Unfortunately, the lead leads me back to myself. I'm the writer on the project. (I worried for one frightened moment about competing Manhattan hotel heist projects...)

By the way, having a project in the script sales column of this board is not a guarantee of knowing fu*k-all about research (at least in my case).

[GirlinGray]

Have you checked Paladin Press? They have just about everything else, I don't know why they wouldn't have how to knock off your local hotel -- unless it's too tame for them.

[DesireeB]

If you are referring to the famous heist of I think it was the Plaza, Sherry or Pierre, there was either earlier this year or last year a newsmagazine story about it. How the guys pulled it off (safety deposit boxes, right?), what happened to them etc. I also think I remember the security being particularly slack for some reason. I would begin by checking with the newsmagazine shows and see if they have a video for sale.

If I am wrong about the story you are researching then just ignore the above.
Desi

[Taotropics]

thanks for all leads - desi, any remembrances of things past re: which show?

[smartblawned]

Tao -
If you haven't already, try this site: www.primenet.com/~rgenis/...tml#capers (http://www.primenet.com/~rgenis/gffall99.html#capers)

It mentions a Learning Channel special that aired in September of 1999 which covered international gem robberies (including the Pierre). You maybe could get a copy of it from their archives?

Good Luck

(If I didn't paste that link correctly - email me at cmtk@excite.com - I wrote it down)

[DesireeB]

Thank you SmartBlawned that is the show I watched. I was mulling it over this evening when TaoT asked what show and I had narrowed it down to something on the Discovery Channel, A&E, or The Learning Channel. This must be it, seeing that I am almost addicted to all three channels. TaoT, you should check out the Discovery Channel store for a video, they are related to The Learning Channel.

By the way, I bet you're going to have a lot of fun writing this.
Desi

[callitt]

>>> have explained my hotel key scenario because the opportunity to exploit it no longer exists. Programmable card keys have eliminated that possibility<<<

Oh yeah?

Let's chat, Bill. That story of yours may have some life in it yet.

[Bill Marquardt]

Yeah, I think it could still work to some degree, but all the major hotels of which I am aware use coded card keys now and the locks are reprogrammed shortly after a guest leaves. Unless you were doing a piece on the not so distant past, I don't think the scheme would hold up to the scrutiny of the average film watcher.

Your thoughts?

[callitt]

Bill,

I am certified in access control system designs and function, including biometric systems. I have the schematics for most major manufacturers systems at my fingertips It can be done under the closest of scrutinies and is quite believable.

Of course I agree with you on the 'how to commit a crime' primer thing, so email me if you need more info.

[cdrdata]

Looking for a professional car thief in Chicago IL area. Just need the wheels off a car, not a whole car. Will pay. email me. :hat

[Bill Marquardt]

Callit - I thought I had answered this, but apparently not. I'm sure that the new electronic locks can be broken into by a knowledgeable pro, but what I was referring to was the idea of stealing hotel room keys out of the US Mail (an inside job) and using them to open rooms. This idea is a bit outdated, since very few actual keys are returned via the mail nowadays.

I'm not into a heist movie just yet, but if I need your expertise in the future, I'll get back to you. Thanks.

Bill

[callitt]

Bill,

Sorry if I was being anal. You did answer most clearly, guess I just misunderstood this was a dead issue for you.

[Bill Marquardt]

Callit,

Sorry, I think it was my reply that appeared "anal" when it wasn't meant to be. (I just re-read it, it sounds a bit sharp.)

I do appreciate the advice, but what I was trying to say is that I was only trying to present a scenario that might have worked for thieves back in the 70's for Tao, not knowing exactly what he was looking for.

I was not being sarcastic, I just don't write very well! (Is that why I keep getting rejected by Hollywood? Hmmm.)

Bill :)

[StRogue]

About card keys...

I currently work in a hotel (co-manage along with hubby) and have been in the hospitality industry for four years. Here's the skinny on card keys..depending on the hotel, how well it's managed, yadda yadda, the card key has the life to open the door up to the time of check-out (being 11am or noon). It (the key) can be reprogrammed at any time by the front desk clerk. Did you know however, that the HEAD housekeeper has a key that opens all the doors all the time? The rest of the housekeeping staff have keys with limitations to certain areas. I won't mention how many times the housekeepers lost their keys, misplaced them, or left them on top of their carts and we had to reswipe all the doors in the hotel due to lost master keys. Security guards also have card keys as well as houseman and any managers on property. The best way to get a master key (most logical) coming from the point of view from someone who works in the industry, is to get it off a housekeepers cart (and yes, they can be very careless). They key will be good up until the time a new master key is made (which is not always immediate).

Getting back to rob a front desk area is next to nill. Getting into the safe logically during the day is next to nill. Best time for any theft to be done in the front desk area is during the graveyard shift when there is a skeleton crew. I was robbed once. The thieves use a fire extinguisher to spray the entire front desk area. The night auditor had no idea who robbed him-white powder was thick as fog from the extinguisher. There was no way he could identify the thief. When I got to the scene right after the robbery alongside my hubby, the entire front desk lobby was thick with white dust. Standing outside, through the windows, I thought for sure we had a fire. Had no idea we had just been robbed with a fire extinguisher. So much for hi-tech robberies.

Hope that helps.

Charli

[Chris]

I was night manager a few years back when the front desk was held up by a guy with a gun in a plastic bag. When the cops found him, all he had in the bag was a cigarette lighter. Anyways...

You're right about the key cards. They're so much easier to lose, steal or duplicate than the old jailer's set the staff used to carry around.

[Bill Marquardt]

Hmmm. Maybe I should give up screenwriting and visit the nearest luxury hotel. Naw, where would the challenge be?

[callitt]

Bill,

I never took your response as curt or sarcastic. I know that's not your way--I just missed the point of your answer. No harm, no foul. (thanks for caring!)


Umm, to those of you who posted and worked in the hotel industry:
a) Get a multi-zone system with restricted time access.
b) Get an audit program and review it daily. You'll know instantly who went where and when, and detect your theft problems immediately.
c) NEVER NEVER NEVER create a Masterkey card for anyone for any reason ever.
d) Use a system that changes all internal cards on a daily or weekly basis. When the staff must rotate their cards, it greatly reduces the chance of inside theft. If your system is computer-integrated, this is accomplished at the data center with a few programming commands on the keyboard. New cards can then be issued to each staff member each day.
IT IS A PRECAUTION WELL WORTH THE MONETARY INVESTMENT.
e) These precautions will help reduce your internal theft liability. It is the professional theif, the outsider you don't know who provides a true threat.

[StRogue]

Call-

I still work in the hotel industry, but no more card keys at this small hotel by the beach. Just had all the locks changed and we use a hard key, no electronic gizmos to worry about. We still have master keys, but housekeeping staff have been here for almost a decade, so no worries there, or with gardener or handy man guy (all been here 8-10 years). So I wake up in the morning and overlook the ocean. I go outside and hear the sea lions. I guess you can call it the perfect place to screenwrite cuz I have plenty of time at this off season to write my brains off!

Life is good!

Charli

p.s. yeah, if you guys are going to be any where near silicon valley and need a vacation, this elbow is the one to rub.. lol

[callitt]

I am raving mad jealous, Charli!!

I want a desk on a balcony overlooking the beach to wake up to, sit down and start writing every morning. That and a cup of coffee with a bacon, egg & cheese sandwich is the perfect way to start the day.

Finish the day with a sunset dinner sail and drinks on the bow of a catamarran skimming along peaceful waters, then write about it.

Got any rooms like that available for mid-January? That's when I start losing my mind dealing with the cold weather & snow.

[BlueParrot2]

i just want to bring this thread to the front as this amuses me.

thanks, kimmie.

[Gaijin Samurai]

look at tao. all piss and vinegar. and these days he's just so mellow...

[fwuffykosak]

mellow?

please.

He's just gearing up to blow off screenplays and become some thriller novel hack...

[kimbro1111]

so tao is gonna be ry in reverse?
;)

[theartgirl]

Tao-email me Colleen@myartsite.com



Colleen : )

[theartgirl]

Hey Tao,

Just read the thread. I have the name and number of a presidential secret service guard if that is helpful.


Colleen : )

[Augie Kestrel]

You might want to read about Murph the Surf, cat-burglar and thief in the pricey West Palm Beach area in the late 60s or early 70s. Robert Conrad played him in a film about his life. He was eventually caught after stealing some pretty impressive gems from a small museum. Good story.

Last I heard, he got religion in prison and upon release went to work at a rescue mission in Orlando. That was at least ten years ago. I think the exact name of the place he works (worked) is Orlando Rescue Mission, if you care to check him out. I don't know how willing he is to discuss stuff like this.

Tom Clancy occasionally will include some details about how the Secret Service moves the President.

[Hamboogul]

Any luck with this research so far?

[Neskahve]

Chris McDougall may have some info. Check out this month's article in Reader's Digest on "Tips From a Burglar" and see if rd will give you the contact info. It is a long shot but hey - you never know, the guy (if Chris is a guy) may have other contacts.

Great thread.

[captain bligh]

tao: you obviously know nothing. good luck with your whole "writing" thing. :|

[Bill Marquardt]

Has no one noticed this thread was started more than two years ago? :rolleyes

[captain bligh]

come on, bill, that's why it's funny. >D

[Augie Kestrel]

Apparently not all of us! :|

That's funny as hell. Blue, stirrin' the pot!

[fatzky]

If you're still looking for this info I can give you some help.Fatz

Just to make certain everyone is completely confused, and utterly convinced that this story is incredible - I'm also interested in anyone with knowledge of Secret Service practices in the 70's. ie: the standard way they would advance an unplanned Presidential visit on the fly. My story has absolutely nothing to do with asassination attempts. Thanks for the thoughts so far.

[jkk808]

Hey I'm working on a heist script too. Any new info or leads anyone could add would be cool...

The best I could come up with was a barrel of monkeys. :rolleyes

[mdbftp]

Is the barrel of monkeys the ones doing the heist, or the ones being heisted?

[pantalone]

About the Secret Service.

I was working an armed security detail in the same building as some Presidential nominees. Different floor, same building. The SS stationed several obvious agents on our floor. It turns out one of the female agents was also from LA. She went to the same high school I did, but graduated 4 years ahead of me. She opened conversation by asking me if I missed LA. She knew more about me than made me comfortable. It was like flirting with someone who reads your email.

[Ravenlocks01]

How 'bout a barrel of monkeys, jkk? After all, this is the Year of the Monkey.

Oh wait...

;)

[Tuco]

Testing...

[BeefMissile]

Try these good sources;
www.crcpress.com www.crimewriters.com www.wga.org www.absolutewrite.com www.copsnwriters.com and The Advice Squad's website. Also check www.bn.com or www.bookfinder.com. These book sites list good Howdoneit and crime scene/criminal investigation guides for writers.

8)

[A Pathetic Writer]

I know a guy who raided Barry Manilow's wardrobe. Does that count?

[Hamboogul]

Please do not hijack my thread revival. Thank you. Cretans.

[BeefMissile]

I can't remember the full name but a series of non fiction books were made about crime scenes/MOs/investigations etc. Check these web sources;
www.bookfinder.com www.bn.com www.deltapress.com www.crcpress.com .

:smokin

[Boobsie Malone]

What are cretans?

[Bill Marquardt]

People wo live on Crete. Really.

www.crete1941.com (http://www.crete1941.com)

[Boobsie Malone]

What's a people wo?

;)

[Augie Kestrel]

Cretans are members of the hard-shell crab family, I think.

[phoenixwriting]

No... they're Korean Greeks.

aka - Crete Asians.


(ducks)

[LIMATA 1]

People wo live on Crete. Really.
Like, totally, dood.

[Bill Marquardt]

For those of you not privy to One on One, someone made a pun there crossing cretins with Cretans. Thus the basis for humor here. See what you are missing? Isn't it worth 7 bucks?

[refriedwhiskey]

You want an honest answer to that question?