Can goals change?

[ducky1288]

I'm still getting plot points down.

Can goals change within a story?

Let's say the protag begins the story with a certain goal and they achieve it in the second act instead of the third. Because when they get that goal they realize they want a different goal that they didn't see at the beginning. Can they then go for a second goal towards the end of the second act and into the third?

I was writing some down for one of my scripts and I realized that my protag's goal would be met early and they change to a different one (I guess through character arc if you want to say that)

[Johnny]

I like it when the protag thinks he's achieved the goal only to realize that he still hasn't. Forcing him to refocus. Like thinking he's killed off the baddie only to realize that he hasn't yet and thus has to work extra hard to do it right next time.

[RogerOThornhill]

I'd say that kinda falls in the category of a midpoint false victory...climb the mountain only to find there is an even taller mountain behind it.


R.O.T.

[Biohazard]

Let's say the protag begins the story with a certain goal and they achieve it in the second act instead of the third.

Then the story is over.

The over-all main goal for the protagonist *does not* change until it is completed. And when the main goal is completed, the conflict is over and so is your story.

In Star Wars, Luke's goal is to deliver the Death Star plans to the rebels, which would aid them in the destruction of the space station. In other words, Luke wants to help the rebels destroy the Death Star. This is the climax of the film: the culmination of the struggle. Luke blows up the Death Star.

In Jaws, Brody wants to rid the beach of the shark to protect the swimmers. He may explore several methods of doing this (posting signs and whatnot), but the goal of ridding the beach of the shark does not change. If it did, then what else is there to say in that story? The story would be over.

Your protagonist cannot, under any circumstances, accomplish his or her main goal before the climax in the third act.

Once you remove the main struggle from your story, the story is finished. You cannot tell a story without struggle, and any added-on struggle that does not relate to the primary goal will cause your story to feel disjointed. The added-on struggle will appear manufactured. You will be in deep doo-doo, to put it simply.

The short answer to your question is a definite 'No'.

[ducky1288]

Okay hmm let me see if I can explain what I'm looking for just a tiny bit better. Not technically like the protag thinks he has achieved a goal and then there is something bigger but more like...

My protag think she wants to go back home to the lifestyle she was living before (which is her main goal throughout the script) but when she finally gets back...she realizes that where she was is where she wants to be.

Does that make sense? It's a script I started in 06 and never finished and I'm finally at a place where I want to go back but now that I get towards the end while outlining it I realize her goal/desire changes because of her arc I guess.

[RogerOThornhill]

Think of the goal more abstractly...finding peace or meaning in her life for example...the journey is just the physical expression of seeking that meaning.


R.O.T.

[Biohazard]

My protag think she wants to go back home to the lifestyle she was living before (which is her main goal throughout the script) but when she finally gets back...she realizes that where she was is where she wants to be.

This brings up the question of what will happen after that point in your story? What is the driving force? Some form of conflict absolutely *must* drive your story forward, or you're dead in the water.

Perhaps your protagonist has a different goal, and going home is one method she tries in her struggle to achieve the bigger, overall goal. Like Brody posting signs to close the beach in Jaws. He hopes that keeping the swimmers away will force the shark away.

In any dramatic work, you must look at the conclusion of the story to find the completion of the protagonist's main goal.

It goes back to the break between acts 1 and 2. What does your protagonist set out to do? Not the method they use at first, but the overall need of this character?

If the goal is accomplished at the midpoint, then what is driving the second half of the story?

[ylekot43]

Okay hmm let me see if I can explain what I'm looking for just a tiny bit better. Not technically like the protag thinks he has achieved a goal and then there is something bigger but more like...

My protag think she wants to go back home to the lifestyle she was living before (which is her main goal throughout the script) but when she finally gets back...she realizes that where she was is where she wants to be.

Does that make sense? It's a script I started in 06 and never finished and I'm finally at a place where I want to go back but now that I get towards the end while outlining it I realize her goal/desire changes because of her arc I guess.

I think you might be missing out on your protags goal. To me.... it seems she wants to find a place called home. Your script is about her search.:)

[EJ Pennypacker]

Things and GOALS can often change or be flipped at the mid point.

It's there that things can and will change for your protag.

EJ

[altoption]

Sounds like you have a very soft, internal goal, which can be a problem in and of itself. But many films do have a midpoint goal change. There's a great book that analyzes a whole bunch of Hollywood films and talks about this extensively: Storytelling in the New Hollywood by Kristen Thompson.

[ducky1288]

I always try to get by without explaining my script because then the focus usually goes off of my question to the problems with my script story lol. I'm still pretty new so at this point I'll be honest I'm not writing high concept scripts. I'm writing what I like in order to just pratice writing and if there comes a point where my writing is okay and the only problem is the story I'm telling then I'll change it.

This was my first script I ever attempted back in 2006 called Southern Hospitality. It's about a teenage girl about to graduate high school in California. She lives a high maintenence lifestyle, she's materialistic, spoiled, call it what you will. After a bad accident she caused and breaking the law she is sent to live with her dad in Arkansas. In order to get back home she has to complete so many hours of community service and reach her 18th birthday before she can come back and graduate at her high school. And of course long story short there are obstacles, struggles, what have you but eventually she does make it back. But when she gets back and realizes the shallow life she lives was meaningless and unfufilling she wants to go back to the country.

Eh it's been done before (in fact the new Hannah Montana movie is kind of like this city girl thrown into the country) luckily my protag isn't Miley Cyrus. But like I said I'm just writing to write as of now.

So when she leaves CA for AR is that just the resolution of the 3rd act and she still needs to only achieve that goal in the 3rd act and no sooner?

[Popcorntreect]

I think her deciding to live in Arkansas should be the last scene of the movie. Like it could be a scene where her love interest is working out in a field somewhere and he looks up and sees her. While nothing is said he knows she's back.

[Rathmon]

Okay hmm let me see if I can explain what I'm looking for just a tiny bit better. Not technically like the protag thinks he has achieved a goal and then there is something bigger but more like...

My protag think she wants to go back home to the lifestyle she was living before (which is her main goal throughout the script) but when she finally gets back...she realizes that where she was is where she wants to be.

Does that make sense? It's a script I started in 06 and never finished and I'm finally at a place where I want to go back but now that I get towards the end while outlining it I realize her goal/desire changes because of her arc I guess.

Sound very similat to the story of " Sweet Home Alabama" where the protag goes home, where she hates, to get a divorce from the guy she hates so she can get married to her rich prince in New York.

So, yes, the goal can change if it suits the story.

Anyone that thinks a protag's goal HAS to stay static has either read too many "how-to" books, or just cannot tell a good story.

And Luke's original goal in "Star Wars" was to bang Leia, not deliver plans.

[altoption]

I haven't seen Sweet Home Alabama, but if her goal is to get the divorce, how far in to the story does she decide she no longer wants it and pursues something else instead?

[roscoegino]

I'm still getting plot points down.

Can goals change within a story?

Let's say the protag begins the story with a certain goal and they achieve it in the second act instead of the third. Because when they get that goal they realize they want a different goal that they didn't see at the beginning. Can they then go for a second goal towards the end of the second act and into the third?

I was writing some down for one of my scripts and I realized that my protag's goal would be met early and they change to a different one (I guess through character arc if you want to say that)

Read MIDNIGHT RUN by George Gallo.

[ducky1288]

Okay cool thanks guys. I think sometimes I get too caught up in plot points in rules I forget to just relax and write.

[Biohazard]

...GOALS can often change ... at the mid point.

The protagonist's main goal does not change.

[zenplato]

The protagonist's main goal does not change.

So both the internal and external goals stay the same?

Or can the external goal change and the internal stay the same?

or vice versa

[Rathmon]

I haven't seen Sweet Home Alabama, but if her goal is to get the divorce, how far in to the story does she decide she no longer wants it and pursues something else instead?

Past midpoint- close to the end of act 2 or start of act 3.

Though it's been awhile... so I could be mistaken.

[Biohazard]

So both the internal and external goals stay the same?

Or can the external goal change and the internal stay the same?

or vice versa

The internal goal must be accomplished before the character has the strength to complete the external goal. They are mutually dependent. You cannot change one without affecting the other.

[Rathmon]

The protagonist's main goal does not change.

That's a cop-out.

My goal in life is to be happy. When I decide what I'm doing does not make me happy (ie, working on computers), and I change careers to... Oh, let's say plumbing... is my goal the same?

Well, duh, yeah.

But only when the goal is so unspecific as what I just said.

Stories, and people, must mature... anything that constrains that leads to the crappy stuff we generally see out of HW. The idea of "One goal" is about the biggest handcuff you can get.

[zenplato]

Bio seems to know his stuff, but I hate to use absolutes like "the goal can never change."

I would think some characters have a static goal, while other's are dynamic.

[Biohazard]

Someone name one universally acclaimed Hollywood film where the protagonist's main goal is abandoned or completed before the climax.

[Ralphy W]

A protagonist has to do this in order to do that.

The "in order to do that" is usually the third act. The ultimate goal.

The "has to do this" is the second act.

The goal does not change. It's just that the third act is the final realization of what is essentially a two-part goal. "I must do this in order to do that."

And now I must void my bowels in order to feel better.

Oh, wait. Once I void my bowels, I'll feel better. Okay, that's not a good example, because I will have accomplished my goal at the end of my number two act. I mean my second act.

Hm.

[Rathmon]

Someone name one universally acclaimed Hollywood film where the protagonist's main goal is abandoned or completed before the climax.

Shrek?

[zenplato]

Someone name one universally acclaimed Hollywood film where the protagonist's main goal is abandoned or completed before the climax.

Casablanca

[Biohazard]

Look at the climax of those films and pay attention to how it's related to the inciting incident.

[RogerOThornhill]

I think lots of films can be argued over and it will come down to what each person thinks the goal was in the first place.

The Graduate, for example. We don't even meet Elaine until way into the film and then he is not interested at first. Of course you could argue his goal was something different, something more esoteric and philosophical.

It's all going to come down to how 'goal' is defined.


R.O.T.

[Rathmon]

Look at the climax of those films and pay attention to how it's related to the inciting incident.

Don't change the rule- you asked how the goal changed.

In Shrek, his goal was to get his home back and be left alone.

After he achieved that goal, it wasn't good enough... He wanted the girl.

Nothing to do with the original goal OR the inciting event, except the convenience of Farquadt standing in his way.

Point in my favor.

ETA- Ding! 200th post...

[Biohazard]

I think lots of films can be argued over and it will come down to what each person thinks the goal was in the first place.

The Graduate, for example. We don't even meet Elaine until way into the film and then he is not interested at first. Of course you could argue his goal was something different, something more esoteric and philosophical.

It's all going to come down to how 'goal' is defined.


R.O.T.

That may be true, but in a cinematic sense, the main goal is almost always clearly defined.

This same discussion took place on another forum a couple years ago, and I was on the side of change. I cited Unforgiven as my example. William Munny's goal is to kill the cowboys who attacked the whore. He does this before the third act.

I was under the impression that Munny changed his goal when the third act rolled around because of what happened to Ned.

What I came to learn is that Munny's goal was not to kill the cowboys. Well, it was, technically. But *why* did he want to kill the cowboys? To avenge the injustice brought upon the whore.

Munny's first reaction when told about the bounty early in the film is that of disinterest. He doesn't care about the money. He wants to avenge the injustice. This is made clear by how often they talk about how horrible the whore was treated.

Munny goes after the cowboys because what they did was morally wrong. The money is an added bonus. What he really wants is to do something right to make up for all the wrong that he has done in his life.

This establishes Munny's goal: to avenge the injustice brought upon Delilah.

Munny kills the cowboys to avenge the injustice. But that does not end the injustice. There was a bigger, more dangerous force to be dealt with. Munny must return to his quest and face even greater trials than before in order to achieve his goal.

Munny's goal to avenge the injustice done to Delilah the whore cannot be completed until Little Bill, a major player in the whole ordeal, is done away with.

Munny confronts Bill and his crew in the finale. With Bill gone, all who played a role in the injustice are dead and Munny's goal is only now accomplished, which brings about the end of the film.

In order to find the main goal, you must trace the events of the finale back to the inciting incident and find how they are connected.

The protagonist's main goal does not change. We just sometimes fail to realize what the goal actually is.

:)

PS: I haven't seen Shrek in years, so I cannot comment on it at this time.

[Rathmon]

Actually, Munny was a reluctant participant, a character with no defined goal until Ned was killed. Up until that point, he was a follower... and the death and post-mortem treatment of Ned was his inciting point that defined his goal.

Of course, I must say I haven't seen
"Unforgiven" since 1997 or so, so I could be mistaken, but I doubt it.... steel trap for a memory or something like that.

[Biohazard]

Actually, Munny was a reluctant participant, a character with no defined goal until Ned was killed. Up until that point, he was a follower... and the death and post-mortem treatment of Ned was his inciting point that defined his goal.

Incorrect.

Ned's death served as a reminder to Munny that killing the cowboys would not end the injustice. Little Bill is a much more dangerous foe than the others, and every bit as guilty as the two cowboys that Munny and co. killed. The injustice would continue unless Little Bill was stopped. Ned's death is proof positive.

Munny thought he accomplished his goal by killing the cowboys. He was wrong. He realized this after Ned was killed.

Munny had a goal: avenge the injustice done to Delilah. I already clearly and logically explained why this was his main goal.

[Rathmon]

Incorrect.

Ned's death served as a reminder to Munny that killing the cowboys would not end the injustice. Little Bill is a much more dangerous foe than the others, and every bit as guilty as the two cowboys that Munny and co. killed. The injustice would continue unless Little Bill was stopped. Ned's death is proof positive.

Munny thought he accomplished his goal by killing the cowboys. He was wrong. He realized this after Ned was killed.

Munny had a goal: avenge the injustice done to Delilah. I already clearly and logically explained why this was his main goal.

Ah, and there I was thinking that he was just after the reward money and because Ned wanted him along...

Unless the line "It's a hell of a thing killing a man" really meant "It's a hell of a lot of FUN killing a man."

Again, I could be wrong....

[ducky1288]

What about Juno? Wasn't her original goal to find a good family for her baby? And she does so pretty quick in the movie. The rest of the movie just switches to how Vanessa and her husband's relationship slowly falls apart which in turn affects Juno? And Juno just lives the life of a pregnant teenager.

Maybe not, I just went down through my list of DVD's and tried to think of the goals. I tend to notice the internal goals more so than the external goals when I watch I guess because I had a hard time picking the definite goal out lol.

[Biohazard]

I'd use up this board's monthly bandwidth if I were to list everything wrong with that piece of sh-t film Juno.

[ducky1288]

I'd use up this board's monthly bandwidth if I were to list everything wrong with that piece of sh-t film Juno.

I loved Juno. But I'm young, most people my age that I recall loved it. I won't say it was the greatest ever but it was catchy. I was intrigued by the character of Juno more than anything.

[Biohazard]

I loved Juno. But I'm young, most people my age that I recall loved it. I won't say it was the greatest ever but it was catchy. I was intrigued by the character of Juno more than anything.

This pretty much sums it up...

http://www.stanhasissues.com/archives/2008/02/easy_to_hate_juno.html

[RogerOThornhill]

To attempt to wrap this up, an external goal may change because the real goal is the internal goal and how to achieve the inner goal may be adjusted as circumstances change.

Shrek seeks some form of happiness, which he thinks is isolation at first.

Munny seeks to provide some sort of retribution and justice, doesn't matter upon whom this justice is served because he will remain unforgiven in the eyes of the Lord for all he's done.

Dustin Hoffman in the Graduate seeks some sort of meaning in his life, going from the pool scene, to banging Mrs. Robinson to a finale with a meaningful relationship as he desperately seeks Elaine.

Inner goal (singular), outer expression of goal(s) (can be plural and layered).

R.O.T.

[ducky1288]

This pretty much sums it up...

http://www.stanhasissues.com/archives/2008/02/easy_to_hate_juno.html

lol interesting. The dialogue was my favorite. I hear kids my age quote things from Juno more than anything. Again maybe that is preference in the type of humor it presents. I'm pretty sure it is aimed at the younger population (no offense to anyone).

But anyways off subject....the story of my life :) lol

[Biohazard]

To attempt to wrap this up, an external goal may change because the real goal is the internal goal and how to achieve the inner goal may be adjusted as circumstances change.

The real, or main goal, may not always be internal.

- In Star Wars, Luke's main goal is to help the rebels destroy the Death Star.

External.

- In Jaws, Brody's main goal is to rid the beach of the shark.

External.

- In Rear Window, Jefferies goal is to prove Thorwald is a killer.

External.

[ScriptShadow]

Not the same but I asked a similar question not too far back...http://messageboard.donedealpro.com/boards/showthread.php?t=44901&page=2

[Rathmon]

So, to the OP,

I hope we answered your question!

(there is no spoon)

[Ralphy W]

Wilson -

Why link to page 2?

[RogerOThornhill]

ducky,

This thread is all part of the industry conspiracy where we thwart writers by confusing the heck out of 'em.



R.O.T.

[ScriptShadow]

Wilson -

Why link to page 2?

Two's bigger than one?

[Ralphy W]

Makes sense. Carry on.

[ducky1288]

ducky,

This thread is all part of the industry conspiracy where we thwart writers by confusing the heck out of 'em.



R.O.T.

Well then my friend you have succeeded thoroughly. :rolling:

Oh just watched (got conned into watching) Last House on the Left...some of it was deeply disturbing.