a physics question

[kahaokamoku]

be dumb a question . . .

1. Can short wave length radiation carry communication?

[Fortean]

Yes, shortwave radiation, (ultraviolet light, x-rays, and gamma rays), could be used for communications; but, radio, (long-wave radiation), requires less energy and is much easier to modulate and broadcast.

Why would you want to ride an elephant, instead of a horse?

[HConn]

Because he's Hannibal?

[kahaokamoku]

I am trying to come up with a logical way sirian communicate. Assuming the are bombarded with short wave radiation and somehow their systems require lots of water. I am trying to make sense between the two. I am also trying to figure out how something can go faster than light.

Assuming a sirian sent a message back to sirius, it would take 4 years to receive that message. Everything could be relative meaning that the scenes that we receive from the stars are immediate, but have been sent a long time ago so amazingly we see these stars.

I have been reading up on this, but a lot of the material I do not understand. I do understand that some things move extremely fast, but we do no feel the speed because of gravity. There is an assumption that properties of gravity may be a used where man or something can go move at extreme speeds.

Which give me another question, lets say I can move faster than the speed of light, does that mean my communication is behind me?

On the whole, this is just in my head. I am playing with how my aliens communicate and how certain characters perceive this communication and theoretically, assume that communication of some sort is going on on earth as well as to the star sirius.

[commandomonkey]

To get, well, not technical, but ... well, you'll know it when you see it.

You can communicate with any form of radiation or anything else where you have control of the flow/output at the source, to encode your message, and a suitable decoder on the other end. Your options are wide open on that count.

I believe current conventional scientific opinion is that nothing--NOTHING--can exceed the speed of light, by definition. And I believe that theoretically as a piece of matter even begins to approach the speed of light it becomes heavier and heavier.

Now, there are a bunch of scientific theories regarding wormholes and 4+ dimensional space which I don't understand, but which underpin a lot of popular sci/fi, and might resolve your communications problem, because maybe your message wouldn't have to travel through 3 dimensional space to reach its destination.

Keep in mind, once you figure out how this could work, you will then still have to explain it to your audience, so you might as well make up something that sounds good and leave it at that.

[Fortean]

Before getting into black holes and tangled up in super-string theory, you had better do some basic astronomical research. Sirius is more than four light-years away!

[commandomonkey]

This may not be satisfying, but if your Sirian character is on Earth, and we never see Sirius, he just communicates with them, then you don't necessarily need to explain it, even if one character asks your Sirian character how it's done.

Think about it: I'm online now, using a computer over the phone line, and watching TV over cable at the same time.

Now, I have a little science background, I flip through WIRED now and then, but my attempt to explain how the f*ck all this works would peter out into mumbling and a shrug after about two and a half sentences.

No reason your Sirian on Terra should be able to explain how he phones home any more effectively.

[kahaokamoku]

I have a character who I haven't introduced as of yet who is a scientist who has been thrown out of NASA deep space research program because of one reason he is delving in egyptian and african myth.

This "unemployed scientist" has been tracking some kind of communications, at least, what he thinks is coming from sirius. In real life, it has been done before and no communication waves where found as we know communications.

I would like him to explain it in confusing terms to the layman and turn around and put it in layman's language. I am playing with cricket sounds, but I haven't seen how cricket sounds can be used to communicate. I know clickers have been used to train animals, but I don't know how a clicking noise can be used in communication although tracking sounds like clicking which tracking normally is speeded up morse code.

I know a few things about tracking signals. That is what I did in the army which was mostly voice, morse and tracking, but I think this is different. I know the search part, but I don't know a whole lot about the scientific knowledge to what I did. In short terms, I am a dummy user.

I am faced with selling my character as an expert which I am not, and somewhat believable in his assumptions which I am not. I have down loaded material and will run with some theory that I haven't found interesting . . . more like "what I can understand".

When I think about it, I should probably come up with what I think and throw it by. Explanation here may be as good as my downloads that I am trying to figure out.

Thanks.

[commandomonkey]

Hey,

I'm not sure what your exactly your confusion is about communication, but I think if you kept up with your SETI research (that's the kind of scientist your NASA guy would be, right? Search for Extra Terrestrial Intelligence) and also read some basic, like encyclopedia stuff about cryptography and code breaking, and breaking out "signal" from "noise" you could probably string enough sentences together to make some acceptable movie dialogue.

My understanding about SETI research is basically that it's not totally unlike tuning a radio when you're in the woods, you point your antenna at a particular region of space, then twiddle the dial trying to here anything that sounds like a voice or music through all the static. Except the dial is the whole spectrum of radiation, and the "listening" is done by computer programmes, which look for patterns which are non-random.

Your average movie goer probably doesn't really understand much on the topic, so some basic info, and one really captivating metaphor will do the trick--but make it visual.

Good luck.

[Fortean]

Undoubtedly, you have looked into the Dogon tribe's claims of knowledge about Sirius (A) and its white dwarf companion star (Sirius B). I'd be rather skeptical of interpretations of Dogon ceremonies and drawings as being representative of the orbits of distant stars. Then, I'm skeptical of many astronomers who disclaim the existence of UFOs and have never examined their government's UFO files. Too many times, I've seen Venus "identified" by astronomers as the explanation for the UFO, when Venus was not visible; but, some astronomers cannot be bothered to check their almanacs.

Sirius A and Sirius B are extremely close together, (some 20 to 25 A.U.), and cannot be resolved as two objects by the naked eye. Telescopes are a must, the scientists say.* Yet, I'd wonder if the ancient Egyptians might not have discovered this by observing Sirius with the Great Pyramid. The southern shaft into the Queen's Chamber was oriented toward Sirius. A pinhole might have been used, instead of a lens, to project an image of Sirius into that chamber.

In ancient times, Sirius was described as red, rather than white. Possibly, Sirius B was a red giant, (like Betelgeuse), and turned into a white dwarf within the past two thousand years. Some astronomers simply dismiss these ancient observations as erroneous, (unable to distinguish a white star from a red one), as they do with UFO reports.

One problem with communication at interstellar distances would be the dispersal of any broadcast signal that did not originate from a coherent source, (such as a laser beam). Most attempts to detect extraterrestrial civilizations, (such as SETI), search for intelligible radio messages; but, I don't think that many astronomers have examined nearby stars, such as Sirius (A and B), for coherent beams of x-ray radiation. X-ray lasers would be a great way to communicate, even if they are limited to the speed of light. It would still take about seventeen years to exchange signals, back and forth. Who'd know, on Earth, that the x-ray source wasn't coming from Sirius B but was actually coming from a nearby planet?

* Bessel could only infer the existence existence of a companion object by the irregular movements of Sirius A, and Sirius B was not seen until 1862. Even with telescopes, astronomers had a difficult time observing Sirius B. See: "The companion to Sirius." Observatory, 20 (1897): 73. The first set of three observations by Cogshall, Lowell, and See at the Lowell Observatory differed from the predicted location of Sirius B; but, the second set of observations by Aitken and Schaeberle at the Lick Observatory agreed with its predicted location. For earlier observations and orbits that disagreed, see Fort's New Lands, (part one, chapter 4) (http://www.resologist.net/lands104.htm).

[commandomonkey]

Fortean, you are totally hardcore.

[kahaokamoku]

Dogons . . . That's my starting point for one story, and it is the underlying basis to another story. Actually, the Dogons came from a search about sirius, and they help create my spring board. Sirius was found on a werewolf search.

I am somewhat obsessed with the Dogons because my present character who will be with me for three books is obsessed with them. I will see if I write the second book after I try and get the first one published. Hopefully, I get a screenplay in the process.

Thank you for the ideas, Fortean and Commandomonkey. I will do some searches on your tips CM, and Fortean, you have been a real help and I will check the website out.

Also I have come across Alpha Centauri which I am leaving in the back burners for now.

These are being written as novels. I guess that it is maybe unfair for me to come here for help. I hope to turn them into scripts. I haven't been successful in finding a decent place for novelist. I think the input is more immediate because the work ethic should be fast and furious, and a screenplay should not take longer than 3 months. I think that one can find immediacy here which is really helpful.

Where i am in germany and my limited network, I switched to novels for the moment to become hopefully, published because I cannot see myself breaking into the industry from where I am. I have played with an idea to go to the film school here, but that would be unrealistic in my present situation.

I hope this open up an avenue to having a screenplay bought and made. My first screenplay is still in working, and it provided a lot of narrative to my sirius story that takes place in Hawaii. I have for the present stopped at six screenplays. I think that's not bad for a beginner and a little over a year. I did learn to sit down at work in the process.

I will check out those tips and website.

Thanks . . . Mr. K.

[pheaktional]

the Sirius has three stars according to the Dogons.

about the color of the Sirius: the color shift from red to bluish-white took approx. 1 million years.

Eight aliens came from Sirius. First Ogo got stranded there, then Nommo arrived as the settler who stayed. They passed their wisdom to Dogons who kept it even without the knowledge of the written word.

Why the Dogons were chosen for this task goes beyond this discussion and is quite inconceivable without seeing the big picture.

In interstellar communication million years are just seconds. The purpose of this kinda knowledge-conveyance is different from the ordinary communications due to the time-space constraint.

If you let's say travel several light-years of distance (for example using space-bending) there and back the time that has elapsed could be at least your lifetime and you'll be hunted by the angels of death 'cause you should be dead by then!

[kahaokamoku]

"there and back the time that has elapsed could be at least your lifetime and you'll be hunted by the angels of death 'cause you should be dead by then!"

A crew of Astronauts fly into deep space ship that travels at the speed of light. The space ship returns, and things aren't what they seem because the astronauts should be dead, and death is chasing after them.

I think that would be interesting.


getting back to the subject. I am playing with several different archetype which also did not have the same transformation. I have a working logical reason for the moment. I am playing with transformation stones, an idea that I got from Fortean. I was in the diamond direction, but I found this as a better route.

I may not have to explain given how far we have evolved in knowledge and science. These beings had the same amount of time as we have had, but time not be as important. They may have access to more time.

[Bill Marquardt]

If you want your characters to travel or communicate at speeds faster than light, all you need to do is create something in your imagination. Many stories involve the use of something called "sub-space" where communication signals travel about the galaxy faster than light. Of course, there is no such thing as sub-space, or at least we have no evidence of such, but this simple explanation seems to work for most people.

Mystics speak of "cosmic consciousness" or the "collective unconscious" wherein we can communciate with each other instantly, regardless of distance.

Black holes and worm holes are often used in science fiction as gateways from one time and place into another. If you want to challenge yourself, read a book or two on quantum physics. There are all sorts of theories in quantum physics that can be exploited in writing fiction. (The "tunnel effect" comes to mind. A believer in quantum physics will tell you that if you place an apple under a hat and leave it there for an infinite amount of time, at some point the apple will appear outside the hat and then back under it. This sounds ludicrous, but at the sub-atomic level the same sort of thing happens in a predictable way when electrons manage to cross a barrier in the tunnel diode. No one knows why it happens. We just know it happens.)

[pheaktional]

If there's no 'sub-space' what is dark matter?

[Bill Marquardt]

Dark matter is something conjured up in scientific theories to explain away an apparent imbalance in the universe. There does not appear to be enough matter within the universe to explain the way galaxies are able to stay together. The needed gravity was theorized to exist within a "missing mass" that is undetectable. Without the gravity provided by this missing mass, or dark matter, stars would fly out of their galactic orbits. Dark matter probably does exist, but has not been proven. It's not easy to prove the existence of something that is not detectable, is it?

Sub-space is a literary invention created by some writers to allow faster than light speed in their stories. Why not? No one can prove there is no sub-space.

There is a scientific theory which includes the existence of a particle known as the tachyon which can travel faster than light speed. Most scientists disregard this theory.

I believe that in the realm of quantum physics, it is safe to say there are no answers, only questions.

One argument against time travel is that apparently no one has ever come back from the future. Not a scientific reasoning, but more of a common sense one.

One of the books I enjoyed reading, and which covers this topic, is Through a Universe Darkly by Marcia Bartusiak.

[Fortean]

There's been quite a bit of interest with the discovery of some superluminal (faster-than-light speed) phenomena. Try a search on "blazars" or "BL LAC objects." And, check out a report of laboratory experiment (http://edition.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/07/20/speed.of.light.ap/) from just a few years ago.

My objection to most time travel stories and films are that they adopt a view of "absolute time," which is total nonsense.

And, has it been done? By some accounts, (check out "An Experiment with Time" by John William Dunne, or "An Adventure" (http://www.amgroup.com/~cmoore/adven/index.htm#contents)), I would think that time travel into the past and into the future may be possible. It's the basis of my present draft screenplay; and, I'm not using Klein-Kaluza, Yang-Mills, worm holes, black holes, hyperspace, sub-space, M-space, nor any of exotic physics.

[commandomonkey]

The laboratory results Fortean cited, have, I think, been explained (away?) as possibly being due to an error in observation, due to constructive wave interference in the light beam. The basically the experiment creates an illusion of backwards time communications.

Oh, here's a thought experment about backwards in time communication (but not travel) and how it could be possible without us knowing about it:

Lets say at 12:01 am on January 1, 2004, I invent a machine which can send signals back in time, and at the same time, a device which can decode and read those very special signals.

I might immediately start recieving messages from my future self explaining which stocks to invest in and on what future dates Jennifer Lopez will again be looking for a husband. My future self could try sending messages back to before I invent the time message receiver, but no one would be looking for them, or know how to understand them, so it wouldn't do any good.

[Fortean]

Okay, so, say you've constructed your relativistic electron-beam generator and encode the electron spins using quantum cryptography, and, now, say you've got your Wheeler-Feynman viewing screen, composed of a negative group velocity medium reduced to a single quantum state. You can certainly generate a backwards-in-time signal, and the electrons will exit the medium and illuminate the target, before ever having entered the negative group velocity medium; but, any attempt by you to observe these positronic signals, before their annihilation, would perturb the incident electrons, (even more than Jennifer Lopez would be perturbed by your looking for her future boyfriends), due to the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen paradox.

Or, could you decrypt them superluminally?

Nah! I don't think so. Human brains have a substantial delay in consciously perceiving the passage of time. Before your past-self could read the signal, you would have become your future-self.

[Augie Kestrel]

You lost me at "relativistic".

[Bill Marquardt]

I just visited the Exploratorium in San Francisco. For the first time, I observed cosmic ray detection within a cloud chamber. Scary. They say the muons are not harmful. Yeah, right.

Now I know why some people wear aluminum foil on their heads.

Fortean - you forgot the flux capacitor.

[Fortean]

"On Earth, it is very difficult to generate energy by fusion processes similar to those which go on in the sun. This is on account of the very high temperatures involved. However, fusion of hydrogen isotopes at room temperature or below can be brought about using a negatively charged muon. As its mass is about 207 m, where m is the mass of the electron, it can bind a deuteron and a triton, for example, to form a muonic molecular ion, in which the two nuclei are so close together that fusion occurs very rapidly. Thereafter, the muon is usually released and is thus free to bring about further fusion reactions in a similar way to a chemical catalyst." ~ E.A.G. Armour (University of Nottingham)

Muon catalysed fusion may provide a safe energy supply for the world; and, hopefully, in the near future, Canada's TRIUMF (http://www.triumf.info/public/about/background.html) laboratory may help yield the next steps to making this a practical reality.

[pantalone]

I thought that light, er, photons, have mass.

<<Wang said the effect is possible only because light has no mass; the same thing cannot be done with physical objects.>>

Now, what is time?

[Bill Marquardt]

If you want to contemplate the universe without reading a lot of books, just think about this:

"Without space, time would not exist."

This was the sort of thing Einstein thought about when he developed the theory of relativity.

[kahaokamoku]

I'm reading.

Now in space we are weightless, but we have mass. Let's say I throw a ball it flews so far. What happens if I throw JLo. Would she fly just as far.

This gravity thing is eating at me.

[Fortean]

Fruit flies like a banana." ~ Groucho Marx

Mass is measured in grams. Weight is measured in newtons. Mass is the resistance of an object to motion, (its inertial property). Weight is the force that one object exerts upon another object by its (so-called) gravitational attraction.

Depending upon where you might be in outer space, you may experience "weightlessness," but, really, you'd never be without weight. In an orbit, you'd be in continuous freefall, as the distance of your movement away from an object would equal the distance attracted to the object. The gravitational forces of two objects upon a third object may be equal in opposite directions, in which case the third object would be suspended between the first and second objects. Or, the influence of gravitational forces may be imperceptible in deep space. Your mass would remain the same; but, your weight would vary greatly depending upon your proximity to other objects and the speed at which you are moving, (relatively speaking).

Kahaokamoku --
Much depends on what direction you send the ball or Jennifer Lopez, when you throw them, and their momentum.

Pantalone --
Now, what is time? Check clock (http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/cgi-bin/timer.pl).

[commandomonkey]

Mass is a measurement of the amount of stuff.

But K, if you're getting into this for a s/f novel, and you're just getting the hang of weight vs. mass, it sounds like you have a tonne of reading to do.

Which will be fun, but I'd just go for some mumbo jumbo and do your story.

[Bill Marquardt]

Here is a quick and dirty course in particle physics, available in several languages: The Particle Adventure (http://particleadventure.org/particleadventure/)

[pheaktional]

bill - more precisely phrased - 'time and space go together'
they are the two sides of the same coin ( Tomb Raider:) )

[pantalone]

What exatly is time?

Space I can measure. Space I can move around in. I take up a measured (and growing) space.

Is time nothing more than the measured decay of an atom or the regular dropping of sand through the narrow neck of a glass? Is time just change?

Both time and space are distorted by the presence of matter, both are distorted by moving really fast.

This is why I don't smoke pot. I'm already stoned.

[kahaokamoku]

probably do the mumbo jumbo, I really don't have to explain, but I would like to understand it.

Actually reading the language that I am reading here, it is interesting.

I started thinking about the distance to the door knob. It is amazing infinite, but we still open the door.

I have learned quite a bit. thank you. I will look up the sites.