How Long Have You Outlined

[WriteByNight]

before writing? In terms of length of time. Days, weeks, so forth.

[Johnny]

A day or two. I write everything out in detail. Then I go scene by scene by scene. Usually takes about 3 days to flesh out an idea.

[Mister Q]

Days!? Weeks!? This one's gonna take at least six months. No offence but what turgid rubbish are you guys knocking out?

[Biohazard]

I don't normally sit down with the intention to outline. When I do, I figure out the main action of each sequence and write it down with little detail. Then I flesh it out in my head throughout the day or next few days and then add to what I had written before. I do this with every sequence (about 15 total by my system) until I have enough to start a first draft. This process takes me anywhere from 2 weeks to a year, depending on how pumped I am about a particular idea, as well as my real world schedule.

[Rathmon]

I've never outlined... or at least not since 1990 when I was working on my first novel. The outline was pretty bad, the story that I wrote ignored what I outlined and I'm glad for that.

Not saying that this method is right for everybody, but to me outlines are for book reports or non-fiction. Good fiction should keep the writer inventing and moving the narrative along based on the story's natural life. If you preconceive that Plot Point A= X action at Y time, you may miss out on some great developement that bubbles up from the dark recesses of your creative mind.

[12916studios]

The current script I am working on took me a little over two months to outline. It got really complicated in parts because time travel is involved, so I had to get years and days very precise. It became very stressful when I hit the back half of the film. I had to draw out diagrams with arrows just to make sure I had things right. It was a horrific experience, and by the time I got to actually writing the damn script I was raring to go so much that I wrote the first 60 pages in 3 days. It took be another 3 months after that to finish the first draft. Now I am on the rewrites...

In all I expect I will have spent about six and a half months on this one script.

Nevertheless...an outline is a very important tool,. and I highly recommend that one uses it to the utmost. It makes the writing process quite a bit simpler. If I hadn't outlines my script and had gone straight into the draft, I would have never been able to finish it.

[toogood]

Months. I usually like to do a 20 to 25 page treatment before I write anything.

If I have a good outline I can do a solid first draft in under a week.

[wcmartell]

As long as it takes.

Hard to put it into days, since every script is different.

On an assignment where I have to turn in a detailed 15 page treatment that will be the script, well - I quaff a lot of coffee and work at it until that outline completely works, then I take it to treatment. If I only have a week from starter pistol to turning in the treatment, I spend most of that week on the outline - then take 2 days to pound out the treatment (and tweak it). I want to make sure that it works well enough that when they fire the starter pistol for the script, I can write it and hand it in and they can make a movie from it - and the money they spend on that movie won't be wasted.

Without a hard deadline and millions at stake? Well, as long as it takes.

- Bill

[WriteByNight]

Yeah, I ask because there have been many times when I started to outline and then got bored and just dived into the first draft -- with "I told you so" results. I can't seem to resist the temptation of just writing the damn thing once I have a concept. And it comes to bite me in the ass later.

What are questions you guys and gals ask yourself when you outline?

[hscope]

I outline in my head because I'm too cheap to buy paper.

I have the fear that by writing an outline I will limit my imagination when writing the script. I prefer freestyle.

[roscoegino]

It's not the easiest thing constructing an outline for something you're going to write. I have always been putting together outlines for published books.

Yet, it's something that has to be done to prevent myself from going beserk.

[Script a Wish]

McKee suggests - with an idea I heartily endorse - that the writer spend 80% of his time researching and outlining. It's actually by far the most creative way to work, as you can work and rework every scene many different ways, ultimately mining the gold you might have overlooked. For example, you might get halfway through a "freestyle" draft and come up with a far superior first act - and yet, because you've put in all the work of writing a freestyle first act, you won't even try it, because you don't want to feel the work has been for naught.

[DBense18]

Day #1 - Outline numbered sections from 1 to 90 at least.
Day #2 - Write 20 pages
Day #3 - Rewrite those 20 pages. Write additional 30 pages.
Day #4 - Rewrite those combined 50 pages. Write additional 30 pages.
Day #5 - Rewrite those combined 80 pages. Write additional 20 pages.
Day #6 - Rewrite those combined 100 pages. Write the ending of Act 3.
Day #7 - Rewrite the whole screenplay and polish.

Sometimes I don't even do an outline until I am halfway through the script. It all varies on the story.

[Development Hell]

Day #1 - Outline numbered sections from 1 to 90 at least.
Day #2 - Write 20 pages
Day #3 - Rewrite those 20 pages. Write additional 30 pages.
Day #4 - Rewrite those combined 50 pages. Write additional 30 pages.
Day #5 - Rewrite those combined 80 pages. Write additional 20 pages.
Day #6 - Rewrite those combined 100 pages. Write the ending of Act 3.
Day #7 - Rewrite the whole screenplay and polish.

Sometimes I don't even do an outline until I am halfway through the script. It all varies on the story.

Wow. If I manage to write 5-10 pages in 1 day I'm physically and emotionally exhausted.

[The Road Warrior]

Outline in my head. May outline during or after to check that logic is running ok. But it changes, flexible.

[Biohazard]

What are questions you guys and gals ask yourself when you outline?

I tend not to go into great detail in my outlines. I know the purpose of every sequence, but not the minute details, like who says what, etc. So it's not a question while outlining, but while writing the first draft: now what?

I love making stuff up on the spot. It usually produces my best moments, and really helps when I write myself into a corner, wondering how I will get out. Hey, if I can't predict my own story, what makes me think you can?

[DBense18]

Wow. If I manage to write 5-10 pages in 1 day I'm physically and emotionally exhausted.

Yeah -- My guide is more for stuff I am willing to write. If it is something I am not interested in, usually a contract for someone else's story, I tend to do far less. But I also live on a farm in the middle of nowhere, so there aren't many distractions while writing. When I had three roommates, and one computer, I'd be lucky to get 5 pages done a day.

Everything varies though. If the story is something which needs heavy research, the outline can take days to prepare.

[JakeJackson]

I have found that extensive outlining has saved me. I probably spend twice the time outlining than I do on the first draft. That ensures that the beats are all there and each sequence turns and the arc doesn't get lost. Then when I am writing, I feel much free-er to indulge in dialogue. Also, if I'm stuck in one scene, I can hop over to something further down the line and write it without worrying that I'm getting out of sorts, because I know it'll all piece together.

Without outlining, I crash and burn in the second half of Act 2 every time.

But each to their own.

[doitafraid]

I have found that extensive outlining has saved me. I probably spend twice the time outlining than I do on the first draft. That ensures that the beats are all there and each sequence turns and the arc doesn't get lost. Then when I am writing, I feel much free-er to indulge in dialogue. Also, if I'm stuck in one scene, I can hop over to something further down the line and write it without worrying that I'm getting out of sorts, because I know it'll all piece together.

Without outlining, I crash and burn in the second half of Act 2 every time.

But each to their own.

Amen. Learned the hard way - if I don't outline the structure is screwed up. Then have to go back and fix it all, sometimes even the spine itself.:mad:

[12916studios]

@JackJackson

That's why I had to write an outlihne for the current script I am working on. It was just too much to handle without it. I knew from the beginning that there would be nearly 300 scenes, due to everything that needed to happen. I wrote up a 30 page outline detailing everything, including bits of dialogue if I thought of them. It seriously saved my ass.

I ended up having to jump around a lot as I neared the second half of act 2. I would get bored with what I was writing (not because it itself was boring) and jump to something new, then back again.

The first script I wrote was far simpler than this one, but also took me 3 months to write. I did that without an outline, but with just all the scenes beaten out. I believe if I had done a full outline I could have gotten it completed far more quickly.

[WriteByNight]

McKee suggests - with an idea I heartily endorse - that the writer spend 80% of his time researching and outlining. It's actually by far the most creative way to work, as you can work and rework every scene many different ways, ultimately mining the gold you might have overlooked. For example, you might get halfway through a "freestyle" draft and come up with a far superior first act - and yet, because you've put in all the work of writing a freestyle first act, you won't even try it, because you don't want to feel the work has been for naught.

This post basically sums up my dilemma. Thanks.

[Script a Wish]

This post basically sums up my dilemma. Thanks.

No prob. Glad I could help :]

And don't despair: It's a common trap for many writers.

[Angeloworx]

In most cases, the outline process gets all the bad stuff out of my system and creates a place holder for scenes I will eventually fill with something satisfying. It explains that I can outline my whole story in a day or two. But the outline gets rewritten as well. As I go along, the story shifts to better(subjective of course) sub-plots or major character stuff that needs to be incorporated into the the 70 pages i've already written in FD. So, for this recent script, before starting on the 3rd act, I go back and re-write act 1 and 2 pages to fit the new 3rd act outline because I now know what to payoff according to the rewritten 3rd act outline. Each act goes through a rewriting outline process so everything fits just the way I want it. That rewrite usually takes half a day to a day. Then I write the pages, push forward until another plot hole shows itself or something about the pages aren't right. Then rewrite another outline to see where this new trajectory leads me before I write the pages. Grueling I tell you.
It is hard to say that after an outline, you're pretty much set. I don't think anyone who sets out to really push their story to the best of their ability strictly adheres to their own outline, even if they've spent a year of creating the perfect plot.

[Telly]

Ever since I was hired to write a treatment a couple years ago I've been hooked on doing so before each script. For me it makes things so much easier. It's still organic, I don't have to follow every word, but having the beats and structure laid out makes it more fluid for me. I like having it as a guide and it really gives me a better understanding of my story and if it's going to work. My last treatment was 8 pages long and I keep it next to me while trudging through the script, it's great for reference when I get stuck. If I'm not sure about a certain motivation or ultimate objective, I look it up in the treatment. I also have a couple pages of character breakdowns in case I come across that whole, what would he do here, question.

I like it :)

[Jenny]

In most cases, the outline process gets all the bad stuff out of my system and creates a place holder for scenes I will eventually fill with something satisfying. It explains that I can outline my whole story in a day or two. But the outline gets rewritten as well. As I go along, the story shifts to better(subjective of course) sub-plots or major character stuff that needs to be incorporated into the the 70 pages i've already written in FD. So, for this recent script, before starting on the 3rd act, I go back and re-write act 1 and 2 pages to fit the new 3rd act outline because I now know what to payoff according to the rewritten 3rd act outline. Each act goes through a rewriting outline process so everything fits just the way I want it. That rewrite usually takes half a day to a day. Then I write the pages, push forward until another plot hole shows itself or something about the pages aren't right. Then rewrite another outline to see where this new trajectory leads me before I write the pages. Grueling I tell you.
It is hard to say that after an outline, you're pretty much set. I don't think anyone who sets out to really push their story to the best of their ability strictly adheres to their own outline, even if they've spent a year of creating the perfect plot.

This is pretty much how I work, too. My "outline" is Super-Sticky Post-its on the wall. One color for major points, another for the scene-by-scene level, another for details, another for jokes and dialog snippets. I can get one that's complete enough to start writing from by staring at the wall for most of a day. Later, if I get a new idea, or line of dialog, I write it on a sticky and slap it on the wall where it fits.

If a plot point is stupid, it's a placeholder until I come up with something good. A sticky with "MC comes up with brilliant solution" tends to just sit there until I'm writing the 3rd act break, then I finally come up with the brilliant solution, and I look over the wall to find which points of acts 1 and 2 now have to change to make the brilliant solution make sense. I go to those points in the script and fix 'em.

I tend to research and write simultaneously. So the outline is a godsend, because I can immediately see where the ideas from my research are going to fit into the screenplay, or if they're not going to fit, no matter how cool they are.

[12916studios]

Even though my 30 page outline for "Forest of Glass" was really detailed, I changed some major things in it towards the end, mostly in the way of character development. I realized as I was writing that the climax wasn't desperate enough. That my protagonist wasn't hurting enough. I mean, I'd already thrown everything but the kitchen sink at him... And as I was writing the scene, I finally found out how to get that in there too.

As a result the final product came out a lot stronger, and a lot heavier too. So it's good not to strictly follow that outline in the case of some impending genius.

[Ralphy W]

Bill Martell had a great post here that has apparently vanished. It was about how important an outline is for character-driven scripts.

Dang.

[Population17]

Bill Martell had a great post here that has apparently vanished. It was about how important an outline is for character-driven scripts.

Dang.


There was a whole page of posts here that vanished. Oh well. I did read Martell's and it was great.


brad

[wcmartell]

I also thought that was a good post... good enough to reconfigure some of the ideas into a script tip somewhere down the line. So, of the couple of dozen posts I wrote that vanished, I thought maybe I should save it (a couple of others I though were good, too - but I figured I'd just come back and grab them later... and now they are gone forever).

***
OUTLINES & CHARACTER

You *do* want to outline character oriented scripts - in fact, it is *critical* that you do.

A good character is not only what they appear to be - they are not only surface. A good character - whether yiou are writing CHINATOWN on DUPLICITY or I LOVE YOU MAN or KNOWING or STATE AND MAIN - is layered, they have depth, they have an agenda, and secrets, and things in their past that they don't want to deal with. If they are only surface - they are crap characters. Every story is an exploration of character - but if you are looking at a "more character oriented story" where the story is all about the characters, that depth is what the story is *about*, right?

So, we have a supporting character - maybe your protagonist's love interest or best friend, and on page 73 their secret is either discovered or revealed to the protagonist and the audience. This is a big dramatic moment in your story.

Okay, that reveal or discover is on page 73, but that *character* is throughout the entire script. The audience and protag may discover the "secret" on page 73, but that character has known that "secret" the entire time - they know themselves, right? And their actions and reactions and dialogue and their character itself is informed by that secret - that isn't revealed until page 73. In fact, if this element of their character is important enough to be part of the story, then a major part of every scene this character is in will be trying to keep people from discovering this aspect of their character... and those scenes will be about doing everything in their power to hide or distract people from this element.

If the writer didn't know about this *critical* element of character until it is revealed on page 73, all of the scenes with this character up until this point are crap. They are false. And they will need to be rewritten...

But here is the problem: Newton's 3rd law. Because, just like in a cheesey sci-fi film, you can't go back and alter the past without altering the present and the future. So when you go back to do a page one rewrite to make that character real, you will do things that will change everything else in the script... and may have to scrap it. You will certainly have to rewrite much of it to keep the character from being inconsistent and false... and keep the other characters reactions in line with reality.

If you have an outline and know that on page 73 that element of the character will be discovered or revealed, you can write that character as a fully dimensional character in those pages before page 73.

You aren't writing for your own entertainment, you are writing for the result. Great characters are part of that result... and that takes planning.

***
- Bill

[ShaneBlackFan]

Excellent post, Bill.

Writing in Final Draft is the easy part. All the hard work is done before you type in FADE IN. It's a skill that takes time to learn, a lot of writers hate that process. I love it.

[jeannie517]

This whole thing relates to process which I've been struggling to figure out. What exactly is my process? My first two scripts I wrote by starting out with an outline. I finished them and they've met with relatively positive feedback so far. Then I thought I'd try the "freestyle" method because maybe I was being too rigid and it was taking me out of creative mode to some formulaic end result....well, what basically happened is I wrote three "half scripts". Meaning I ditched them somewhere around the middle of the second act....each time I'd get stuck, I'd set the whole concept aside and start writing a new script thinking I'd actually finish that one.

Finally it dawned on me that the reason I wasn't finishing anything was because I didn't know my own da*n story because I hadn't finished outlines for those scripts. So when I got back to hammering out the outline first, I managed to complete the first two of the three unfinished scripts and now I'm working on the third. I'm crazy ridiculous about research, so it's been taking me from two weeks to a month to complete an outline starting with the index card thing and working them into a viable outline hitting the plot points, etc.

When I realized that the outline isn't etched in stone and out of necessity it will change as you write, it got me out of the line of thinking that I was killing my own creativity because you can inject new ideas, chuck out stuff, whatever it takes to get your story written. But this way you have a roadmap and it gets you through to the end of the story. It also write out of sequence, so I pick a certain number of scenes that I feel inspired to write that day to meet my page count quota. But for someone else, that might not work at all. After reading Bill's post, it now makes sense why it works for me. Thanks for sharing your insights, Bill. It's greatly appreciated.

[The Road Warrior]

This whole thing relates to process which I've been struggling to figure out. What exactly is my process? My first two scripts I wrote by starting out with an outline. I finished them and they've met with relatively positive feedback so far. Then I thought I'd try the "freestyle" method because maybe I was being too rigid and it was taking me out of creative mode to some formulaic end result....well, what basically happened is I wrote three "half scripts". Meaning I ditched them somewhere around the middle of the second act....each time I'd get stuck, I'd set the whole concept aside and start writing a new script thinking I'd actually finish that one.

Finally it dawned on me that the reason I wasn't finishing anything was because I didn't know my own da*n story because I hadn't finished outlines for those scripts. So when I got back to hammering out the outline first, I managed to complete the first two of the three unfinished scripts and now I'm working on the third. I'm crazy ridiculous about research, so it's been taking me from two weeks to a month to complete an outline starting with the index card thing and working them into a viable outline hitting the plot points, etc.

When I realized that the outline isn't etched in stone and out of necessity it will change as you write, it got me out of the line of thinking that I was killing my own creativity because you can inject new ideas, chuck out stuff, whatever it takes to get your story written. But this way you have a roadmap and it gets you through to the end of the story. It also write out of sequence, so I pick a certain number of scenes that I feel inspired to write that day to meet my page count quota. But for someone else, that might not work at all. After reading Bill's post, it now makes sense why it works for me. Thanks for sharing your insights, Bill. It's greatly appreciated.

-- process is fascinating, I tend to work from an outline, but in many cases ideas start to take the story in a new direction, and it's often difficult, if not impossible, to prevent this. That's why I believe that at the outlining stage, you may think that you know your story, but it's not always the case. But I think oultlining is essential to avoid that mid script pit where you can write yourself into a dead end. This does not mean that an outline has to be superdetailed though, it can be skeletal, with a clear idea of the protag, where he/she wants to go, and allow lots of freedom.

:)

[Ulysses]

The relationship between outline and writing a script is like planning a trip and doing a trip.

Exciting trips always veer off from the plan, unpredictable things and wonders happen.

A good trip includes a change of plans.

Only guided bus tours stick to every point of the trip outline.

[jonpiper]

Last month I posted the opening of a new screenplay. It's based on a short story I wrote, which led me to believe I could write it without an outline.

After receiving three or four good comments, I realized I'm not ready to write the screenplay without an outline first. I'm adding to the story and making one huge change, a twist that'll take the story in another direction. An outline will allow me to explore various directions without wasting a lot of time writing action and dialogue that will change as the final story takes shape.

An outline is like a detailed plan for the screenplay. But there is a lot of room within the outline for creativity and change.

[mikeb]

Outlining drives me crazy sometimes.

A good outline can be a blueprint to save your story.

Sometimes I feel like I invest too much of myself into the outline to come at my script with as much fire as I had when the idea was fresh, but still, I think it's a necessary step. The only script that turned out halfway decent for me was the script I outlined.

That being said, my current outline is 12 pages and 7,500 words, I'm getting tired... but I want to have a solid act three down before I start writing. I'm close, but it's not easy. Beginnings are easy for me, act two's are generally hit or miss, but endings... those take awhile.

[Biohazard]

The relationship between outline and writing a script is like planning a trip and doing a trip.

Exciting trips always veer off from the plan....

Not exactly.

There's a difference between going off or changing the plan and the plan unfolding in unexpected and unintentional ways.

When writing, you should always have a plan; that plan being the structure of your story. You have to know where you're going before you go there, and structure allows you to see where your story is going.

Plot beats are like waypoints for your story. It doesn't matter how you get to the Midpoint or the Inciting Incident. What matters is that you get there in the correct amount of time (which is dependent on your story).

As long as you know the waypoints and what needs to happen in your story at each particular point, then you can just kind of "go" as you write each sequence that leads to the next waypoint. Let your story unfold as a road trip. Just make sure you get to the next destination on time.

Map out the most important 15 beats (waypoints) of your story's journey, and then get there. Doesn't matter how, as long as it's logical and entertaining.

Then you will have a tightly-structured screenplay that feels spontaneous rather than rigid.

[wcmartell]

Exciting trips for the writer or the viewer?

All goes back to the magician and the audience. The magician isn't surprised by his trick - he has to know exactly how to do the trick before he begins...

The more he knows, the more *precise* he is at doing the trick, the more magical it is for the audience.

- Bill

[Ralphy W]

/agrees with Bio and Bill

[sc111]

/agrees with Bio and Bill


Me too. For my comedies I did very thin outlines, but for this Western I needed to be more detailed for the first time. And instead of "killing" the fun of writing it (which I always felt detailed outlines would do to me) it actually made it more fun because I knew exactly where I was going.

Also -- I was so sure Act 1 would be long but somehow the plot point of the protag deciding to head west landed right on page 21-22. Sort of amazing to me -- I thought I'd have a 30 page act one to wrestle with. But the outline helped me avoid that problem.

[dgl]

I normally like to spend a month or two outlining, hitting all the major beats, writing bits of dialogue, making sure I have everything I need.

But on the script I'm writing now I only had 3 days to work it out before I started writing on Monday. Sometimes tight deadlines are great. There's no time for overthink and that pesky left-brain critic to wreak havoc on the creative process.

[ylekot43]

I almost always write out the first act and then go to my beat sheet if I still like the concept.

I need to do this to get a feel for my characters...their voices...their issues.

Its kinda like the scene on the front lawn from step-brothers where they awkwardly feel each other out.

After I spit that out...If i still want to write the script, then I do some planning.

Part of it is also because I am worried I will waste a ton of time preparing and then not like the story once I get going. I have to LOVE my characters to keep going.

[Ulysses]

There's no doubt you need to plan (outline) a complex story.

There's equally no doubt that a writer needs to stay involved if he wants to create something alive.

A writer needs to feel to make his audience feel. Or they will call him on magician's tricks. In a Syd Field way, structure can kill content, can lead to a paint-by-number script, which makes the story predictable.

A script has to be, in a way, personal. That defies the simple rationality of an outline. It's the surprise element, the wonder garden of a complex world, that enters here.

[Charisma]

Here Here, Ulysses!

My outline is stream of consc. first draft. Mull over at end of writing day and roll thoughts around before return to keyboard. Bed (no not that) on road, etc. So, 1st draft is actually my outline.

Makes for an intense re-write process but that's when the script gets on or gets off. Kinda like a double A ball player. This is when you'll know if it's capable of making it in the big leagues. Or not. But for me I'd rather 'tune' a script that's constructed, re-write and polish, than slave over pages that are not script, write a first draft, second and a polish. Just my personal feel. I do see that a 'true' outline can pay dividends on the technical aspects. Which are part and parcel of being a pro. BC