Does "theme" matter?

[LauriD]

Egri: theme is a premise proven by the story...

Seger: most good films will tell the audience the theme in a concise and memorable sentence

Snyder: somewhere in the first 5 minutes... someone (usually not the main character) will pose a question or make a statement... that is the theme of the movie.

Frensham: Theme is a universal statement about the human condition... It takes the whole screenplay to say it and it almost always sounds foolish and shallow simplified into a couple of sentences....


DO all good screenplays have a theme? If so, MUST that theme be overtly stated (by page 5 or otherwise)?

LauriD

[Biohazard]

Biohazard: Theme is what is learned by the end of your story.

If you have no theme, what the hell is the purpose of your story?

[LauriD]

Learned by whom? The main character? The audience?

Indiana Jones learns about the power of the Ark -- but what is the THEME of "Raiders"?

Maximus learns how to fight as a Gladiator and thus how to be revenged -- but what is the theme of that film?

L.

[Biohazard]

Learned by whom? The main character? The audience?


Yes.

We are the main character.

Neo learns to believe in himself. We learn to believe in ourselves.

There's a good old thread on 2A about the theme of Raiders.

[Robot17]

When I'm developing something I like to ask myself "What is my protagonist trying to prove?"

Generally I find my protagonist finds a world or situation that exists in such and such a way, and goes out to change that world or reconcile it to his or her beliefs/desires.

The antagonist typically forms the other side of the theme as trying to keep the situation or world as it is.

The theme, as I understand it, represents a thesis that my protagonist is trying to prove and the antagonist represents the other side of that argument.

All of the actions of the characters should be representations of those views and should play out within the drama I'm constructing. Their actions should make the argument visable but not neccessarily be spelled out in dialog.

There is an excellent discussion at the Two Adverbs site on exactly this topic - highly recommended:

http://twoadverbs.web.aplus.net/sc/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6743&highlight=taotropics

You have to be a member to view it but I recommend joining the site.
Bot

[12916studios]

All good screenplays have a theme, yes. Theme is something that is very difficult to learn. In high school, I hadn't a clue what it was. Couldn't pick one from a novel to save my life. Then suddenly, I could...write it. Still can't pick one from a novel to save my life, I bet.

Anyway, the theme isn't always necessarily what the protagonist learns by the end of the film, but it is deeply ingrained within his overall arc. Some scripts have multiple themes. (Example: Chinatown.) Others have maybe just one.

Mine has several, though perhaps the most apparent by the end of the thing is fear of death. In the beginning my protag is terrified of dying. By the end he accepts it. It is that theme that drives the story. It is because of that theme that I take the twists and turns I do, and make it as impossible as I can for him to accept death.

You can have plot without theme...but it won't be any good. There won't be emotion. The stakes won't feel enough. Your story will end up feeling, pointless, and flat, and boring, and nobody barring a few hapless stoners will ever really like it. (Example: Epic Movie.)

Ergo, yes...theme is very important.

[GabbaGoo]

Short Answer: Yes.

Although, I do think it usually comes out natuarally when you're writing your script, at least that's how it works for me.

[JonnyAtlas]

Uh-oh. Here we go again...

[Kwinnky]

Egri: theme is a premise proven by the story...

Seger: most good films will tell the audience the theme in a concise and memorable sentence

Snyder: somewhere in the first 5 minutes... someone (usually not the main character) will pose a question or make a statement... that is the theme of the movie.

Frensham: Theme is a universal statement about the human condition... It takes the whole screenplay to say it and it almost always sounds foolish and shallow simplified into a couple of sentences....


DO all good screenplays have a theme? If so, MUST that theme be overtly stated (by page 5 or otherwise)?

LauriD
I don't know if it has to be stated on page 5, but it helps bind the story together, making it coherent.


Edit:

In fact, I think the page 5 rule might be misinterpreted as it was for me. I would state the theme, but it was like everyone in the screenplay forgot it until certain plot points.

Some writers don't even have a theme during their first draft, but then it just appears to them and they incorporated it better.

[JonnyAtlas]

Learned by whom? The main character? The audience?

Indiana Jones learns about the power of the Ark -- but what is the THEME of "Raiders"?

Maximus learns how to fight as a Gladiator and thus how to be revenged -- but what is the theme of that film?

L.
I don't think you're understanding theme. Those are all things the characters learn. Theme is under all that. It is the underlying question that begs to be answered.

"Is it right to seek revenge and must that revenge include murder, or is there a better way?"
"Does anything outside ourselves matter in this world?"
"Are we in complete control of our lives, or is there a higher power for us to fear and respect?"

[Robot17]

Uh-oh. Here we go again...
:rolling:

I like what Tao says about it : "Pick your sides in a war of ideas."
Just about perfect IMO.

Bot

[The Road Warrior]

A screenplay without a theme is lilke a little glowworm, without any glow.

[zenplato]

A screenplay without a theme is lilke a little glowworm, without any glow.

Would you say a screenplay without theme is like a thread without posts?

:)

[The Road Warrior]

Would you say a screenplay without theme is like a thread without posts?

:)

That's too advanced for me Zen. :)

I would say, ;) , that there are other types of insects in the world, and that they seem to get along fine, therefore, a screenplay without theme is fine.

:D

[Robot17]

Would you say a screenplay without theme is like a thread without posts?

:)

I'm seein' a bright light - a profound revelation? A train? Yes, a train. I think we're going to get derailed!

Bot

[The Road Warrior]

but, seriously, I read recently in Stephen King's book, ON WRITING, that according to King, it's better to leave theme alone until later in the process, later drafts. This makes sense to me, as it may in fact be unconscious, or a mixture of a uncon. and con process. A

But also read recently, in a review of Othello, Arden 2nd Ed, that the critic did not think that Shakespeare's mind worked in that way, which is interesting, and of no help ## alas. I must stop reading.

Then it happened, light, insight, Bot's train: I watched a film called Alienator, it was a Jan Michael Vincent flick, low budget, and it was very clear indeed that no theme existed within the castle, I mean celluloid walls of that film.

As hard as one tried, theme was not to be found anywhere, so I now think that in answer to the question, that one about life, the universe and everything, the one that makes the foundation stones of done deal shake with anticipation --


Does "theme" matter ?

The answer is: -

Sometimes it does / sometimes it doesn't.

or

436.

[Robot17]

but, seriously, I read recently in Stephen King's book, ON WRITING, that according to King, it's better to leave theme alone until later in the process, later drafts. This makes sense to me, as it may in fact be unconscious, or a mixture of a uncon. and con process. Also read recently, in a review of Othello, Arden 2nd Ed, that the critic did not think that Shakespeare's mind worked in that way, which is interesting, and of no help ## alas.

Then it happened, light, insight, I watched a film called Alienator, it was a Jan Michael Vincent flick, low budget, and it was very clear that no theme existed within the castle, I mean celluloid walls of that film. As hard as one tried, theme was not to be found anywhere, so I now think that in answer to the question as stated above.


Does "theme" matter ?

Sometimes it does / sometimes it doesn't.

Agreed but for me I prefer to be conscious of the theme going in. When I am, I feel I'm more in control of the story from authorial standpoint and the actions that flow from the theme make more sense.

But I've also discovered themes from the flow of what I'm writing. I just prefer having a clear theme to begin with.

Bot

[The Road Warrior]

yes, Bot, I agree, actually, just having a little bit of fun there -- King seemed to be using it to free writers from anxiety, at least that's the way I read it.

But like you, I sometimes start with theme, by posing a question -- what do I want to say about the world ... or life, is there a truth to be revelaed that interests me.

This hopefully helps with the type of story, or characters that will eventually end up in the mix.



:)

[lucidimage]

One time I wrote a script around a theme I wanted to talk about- people hated it. MORAL: Find a concept- the theme will emerge from there on its own.

[Rantanplan]

Theme to me is a completely different issue than "what happens in the story?" That to me is plot. Theme is, what issues is the film exploring through the story of these characters?

Matrix to me is not about Neo believing in himself. Half of all HW films are about believing in oneself. Matrix is asking some pretty deep questions about the nature of reality and truth, as in what is reality and is truth always the better objective? Is it better to live in a happy dream-state of lies or to live miserably in the "real" reality? That to me is Theme. The philosophical underpinnings of a narrative explored through story and character.

And no, I don't think every film has it. There might a neat little moral lesson, but to me it doesn't equate theme. Theme goes deeper. I would say a lot of the films out there aren't that strong on theme, other than very general, such as Friendship, Love etc.

Funny I was actually just reading a column on THEME in Wordplayer today, (the one about Executive Talk versus Writer Talk, in the Industry Pro's section), and how in a pitch meeting, if a studio big shot asks, what is the Theme, they basically are asking What other similar films have made sh!loads of money at the Box office, and so their eyes glaze over when the Writer begins to passionately explain that the film is about loss and grief or the duality of human nature or what have you...

[The Road Warrior]

Yes Lucid, I think that's damn good advice. I suppose it depends on the individual. And the listeners.

[Robot17]

Matrix is asking some pretty deep questions about the nature of reality and truth, as in what is reality and is truth always the better objective? Is it better to live in a happy dream-state of lies or to live miserably in the "real" reality?

Yep.

Totally agree with this. And the good themes present inherent compelling arguments in the "war of ideas" although they may not be presented as "balanced".

The mogul speak vs. writer speak thing is a totally different subject.

Bot

[Rantanplan]

To add to my above post: for instance, on the new script I'm working on, I wrote a 2-page artistic statement about the story. First, in a couple of lines, I say what it's about, i.e. the characters and the major plot points.

Then I say, This device allows the narrative to explore a number of thematic and cinematic issues:

- the notion of this....
- the nature of this...
- .... as a visual metaphore for...
- etc.

Your script can be saying something about human nature, something about cinema (for instance if you're taking issue with form), etc. Those are THEME. It goes beyond plot. Those issues to me are what add deeper layers of meaning to a story. On the first level it's about this (character and plot). On a second level it's about this (philosophical view point, something about human nature). On a third level, it's questioning this (the form of cinema, narrative structure)... etc.

Just my .02...

And personally, to me a script becomes all the more exciting when you have it working on a bunch of different levels. However, for anyone to be interested in it, it has to work first and foremost on that basic level, i.e. story and character. Nobody gives a sh!t about what profound statements you are making about the duality of mankind if you can't nail the basics and make the story engaging :)

[Rantanplan]

Robot: although sci-fi is TOTALLY not my genre in terms of what I write, the thing I find interesting about it, and I'm guessing you'll agree, is that it is usually always making a philosophical statement about where humanity is headed (although not Star Wars, I remember reading somewhere someplace about how it does not belong to the Sci-fi of Ideas and that there are two major categories of Sci-fi).

Most of anything based on the work of Phillip K. Dick is examing some pretty serious issues. Talk about THEME, well there you have it :) All of those flms, Total Recall, Bladerunner, Minority Report, can be read on a bunch of different levels, which adds to their value.

[zenplato]

I'm seein' a bright light - a profound revelation? A train? Yes, a train. I think we're going to get derailed!

Bot

lame...I sure hope you don't write comedy.

The post was for RW, not for you...

[Robot17]

Robot: although sci-fi is TOTALLY not my genre in terms of what I write, the thing I find interesting about it, and I'm guessing you'll agree, is that it is usually always making a philosophical statement about where humanity is headed (although not Star Wars, I remember reading somewhere someplace about how it does not belong to the Sci-fi of Ideas and that there are two major categories of Sci-fo).

Most of anything based on the work of Phillip K. Dick is examing some pretty serious issues. Talk about THEME, well there you have it :) All of those flms, Total Recall, Bladerunner, Minority Report, can be read on a bunch of different levels, which adds to their value.

Not my genre either but I think it lends itself to metaphorical treatments of ideas better than most genre's.

All of your examples are fantastic tales.

Bot

[Rantanplan]

Not my genre either but I think it lends itself to metaphorical treatments of ideas better than most genre's.

All of your examples are fantastic tales.

Bot

You know they're remaking TOTAL RECALL, right? A sad state of affairs !

[Robot17]

You know they're remaking TOTAL RECALL, right? A sad state of affairs !


Yeah. Joy.

Bot

[Biohazard]

Matrix to me is not about Neo believing in himself. Matrix is asking some pretty deep questions about the nature of reality and truth, as in what is reality and is truth always the better objective? Is it better to live in a happy dream-state of lies or to live miserably in the "real" reality? That to me is Theme.

I disagree.

Neo struggles with self doubt constantly in The Matrix. There are many scenes that demonstrate this. The escape out the window, the rooftop jump simulation, etc.

But where are the scenes that show us Neo trying to decide between the matrix or the real world? He swallows the pill to take himself to the real world immediately, without thinking twice. He is not struggling with the benefits of one world vs. the other.

Where does Neo question the nature of reality? He does not. He goes along with it.

Theme is present throughout any good film.

If you want to learn the theme of a movie, ask yourself what was learned by the end of it.

That's theme.

Everything else is just something else.

[Robot17]

I disagree.

Neo struggles with self doubt constantly in The Matrix. There are many scenes that demonstrate this. The escape out the window, the rooftop jump simulation, etc.

But where are the scenes that show us Neo trying to decide between the matrix or the real world? He swallows the pill to take himself to the real world immediately, without thinking twice. He is not struggling with the benefits of one world vs. the other.

Where does Neo question the nature of reality? He does not. He goes along with it.

Theme is present throughout any good film.

If you want to learn the theme of a movie, ask yourself what was learned by the end of it.

That's theme.

Everything else is just something else.

But remove one or the other and does it still stand?

Remove the idea that Neo lives in or transitions through the the two worlds and does it still hold water? No.

Remove the idea of whether Neo's belief enables him to do extraordinary things? Yes. I think.

One way or the other its an interesting question and I don't know whether there's a "right" answer. It could be both for all I know but I do know the film is better for both.

Bot

[Rantanplan]

Neo has to make a major decision: to go back to what he knows or go down the Rabbit Hole of truth. That is the Theme. Reality versus Perceived Reality. The Plot, what happens to him, what he does, etc, makes the Movie and the Story possible, but the Theme is about the whole notion of reality.

[Biohazard]

But remove one or the other and does it still stand?

Remove the idea that Neo lives in or transitions through the the two worlds and does it still hold water? No.

Remove the idea of whether Neo's belief enables him to do extraordinary things? Yes. I think.

One way or the other its an interesting question and I don't know whether there's a "right" answer. It could be both for all I know but I do know the film is better for both.

Bot

You're talking about plot elements, not theme.

Theme is what the story is about. Not aspects of the story itself.

Remove any plot element of the Matrix and it will not work. That doesn't mean it's the theme.

Stories without theme do exist, so is it theoretically possible to remove the theme of "you have to believe in yourself if you want to do extraordinary things" from The Matrix?

In theory, yes.

But since theme is interlaced throughout The Matrix so well, you cannot remove it without causing a disruption in the story.

Theme and story are separate elements of a screenplay. Theme gives meaning to story, which means that you need your scenes to argue theme. If you have no scenes that argue what you believe theme is, then it is not the theme of that story.

I can type about theme until my fingers are crippled, but there are an abundance of threads both here and on 2A that clearly explain what theme is.

And theme is what is learned by the end of your story.

[12916studios]

SciFi is practically made for theme. It is, above all other genres, the most simple vehicle through which a message can be driven. By creating another world we can provide an allegory through which we can covertly bash our beliefs and values over the heads of oblivious and unsuspecting viewers. And the beauty of SciFi is that nary will they understand what has just been done to them.

Take the thematic backdrop of Battlestar Galactica, for example. The reboot of that show was essentially inspired by the events of 9/11, and as such there were ample discourses on terrorism and one's religious beliefs. If those themes were played out in real life situations they would feel forced. In SciFi, they accentuate.

People are much more open to theme when it's not as though they are being forced to look at a mirror image of their world. It is for that reason that I feel science and speculative fictions are the more superior genres.

[Rantanplan]

SciFi is practically made for theme. It is, above all other genres, the most simple vehicle through which a message can be driven. By creating another world we can provide an allegory through which we can covertly bash our beliefs and values over the heads of oblivious and unsuspecting viewers. And the beauty of SciFi is that nary will they understand what has just been done to them.

Take the thematic backdrop of Battlestar Galactica, for example. The reboot of that show was essentially inspired by the events of 9/11, and as such there were ample discourses on terrorism and one's religious beliefs. If those themes were played out in real life situations they would feel forced. In SciFi, they accentuate.

People are much more open to theme when it's not as though they are being forced to look at a mirror image of their world. It is for that reason that I feel science and speculative fictions are the more superior genres.

I agree... most people are not walking out of the typical rom-com arguing about its greater message about humanity... But you take a film like BEFORE SUNSET, to me that film functions on a bunch of levels. For instance, is it possible that one night might affect us on a deeper level than any other experience thereafter? And more importantly, was that one night only special because of its temporary nature, or would it be possible to sustain that kind of connection for an entire lifetime? That film always blows me away. Celine says it beautifully at one point, she says that, the reason they agreed to not exchange contact info the first time around was due in part to the fact that on some level, when you're young, you just assume that life will be filled with these kinds of intense connections, but that as you grow older, you realize how rare they in fact are. That film to me, under the guise of a light comedy, is actually downright tragic. To me, those are themes that are well worth exploring. So yeah, to me that film has a definite theme...

[Robot17]

Stories without theme do exist, so is it theoretically possible to remove the theme of "you have to believe in yourself if you want to do extraordinary things" from The Matrix?


But if this is your theme for the Matrix it really isn't a theme in the sense that it presents an argument. That's the problem. What is the other side of the argument that lifts it from platitude to theme in the sense that it truly has two sides?

This may be a motif, an element or other such thing but it isn't a compelling discourse. Its not anything that anyone would argue with. That's why the story can hold without it. The Matrix (I'm not a Matrix expert but...) IMO is much better expressed as an argument that asks if it's better to live in a happy dream-state of lies or to live miserably in the "real" reality?

Bot

[Rantanplan]

Put it this way: MATRIX could JUST be about a guy who needs to believe himself in order to fulfill his destiny --much like many other plotlines. But because the story also --and some would argue, primarily-- has to do with the whole concept of reality, it makes it a much richer film. The first can exist without the second, but in that case the film wouldn't be nearly as interesting or as thought-provoking, and people certainly wouldn't be writing entire books about the philosophical concepts behind the Matrix.

[Naudikom]

*getting a headache*

Yes, your script needs a theme. Why? Because it just f*cking does, that's why.

[Rantanplan]

Put it another way: some say Neo is a metaphor for Christ. The story of Christ is one thing, God made Man, struggling to fulfill his destiny, being tempted etc., but the THEME / MESSAGE of Christianity has to do with love and redemption through faith. The two are intricately linked, but in this case, the first without the second means absolutely nothing. Otherwise, it's just some guy who needs to believe in himself -- to save the family business or get the girl or whatever :)

[12916studios]

*getting a headache*

Yes, your script needs a theme. Why? Because it just f*cking does, that's why.

I feel your pain. Seriously. I think every thread here turns into a debate. Honestly, I want to start a thread on the most undebatable subject and see if it devolves into soapboxing and egomaniacal pontification. It probably will.

[Robot17]

I feel your pain. Seriously. I think every thread here turns into a debate. Honestly, I want to start a thread on the most undebatable subject and see if it devolves into soapboxing and egomaniacal pontification. It probably will.


Not really a hot debate - good discussion methinks.

I understand Naud's headache though :shifty:

Bot

[hscope]

To find the theme of my scripts, I hand them out to friends and ask them to guess what the theme is. I then confirm the best suggestion and also have a selection on hand when asked by others.

If my readers are stumped, I tell them the theme is man's inhumanity to man.

[sc111]

Tao posted great stuff on theme. It should be in the archives.

ETA:

Found it.

The nature and meaning of "theme."

http://messageboard.donedealpro.com/boards/showthread.php?t=32288

[GabbaGoo]

Here we go...

Theme is intangible, it's the heart of your movie... you get a feeling, an emotion, basically it's what you want your audience to leave with that has nothing to do with the story, plot points or twists... its just a feeling.

It fills the holes in your screenplay... it's that common thread going through.

Theme = Feeling.

Now stop asking about Theme...

[Rantanplan]

Seriously, if a writer doesn't even know what his/ her story is trying to say, beyond the plot, well then....hmm.

[ScriptShadow]

I'm going to change my original stance on this. I used to say that theme didn't matter. Or didn't matter "that much". But after reading a lot more scripts, both professional and non, I can't help but see so many writers straying all over the place. Losing focus. Not on point.

I think the word "theme" can be intimidating because so many people have so many different definitions for it. But I think as long as you have some sort of "unifying idea" that holds your script together, you're ahead of the curve (some people would not call that "theme" - but it basically achieves the same goal). Because it's something that gives direction and focus to your story, which I find to be lacking in so many screenplays.

[LauriD]

Interesting discussion (and thanks for the vintage link to Tao).

But going back to one of my original questions:

SHOULD the theme be overtly stated?

(I think not -- but I'm interested in what others think...)

Also, I would contend that an emphasis on theme, or a deep or profound theme, neither makes nor breaks a movie. Plenty of good (and even great) movies have banal themes ("trust in yourself/God/the Force," "love/good will triumph over hate/evil," "that which does not kill me makes me stronger," "money/violence/ambition corrupts").

Synechdoche, NY, one of the deepest and most profound movies I've seen in years, did not do well at the box office. People seemed to either love or hate it. But boy, did that baby have theme. :)

Some sucessful movies wear their themes "on their sleeves." (Example: Spiderman -- "with great power comes great responsibility.")

Others do not -- while one can argue about the themes of Gladiator, Indiana Jones, Quantum of Solace, Juno, Lord of the Rings, etc., what people remember are the stories, the characters, the visuals, the dialogue... If those movies ever overtly stated their themes, I missed it...

Lauri

[Biohazard]

SHOULD the theme be overtly stated?

Theme is typically hinted at through dialogue early on in most films.

I would not recommend having a character directly say your story's theme out loud. That would come off as preachy and heavy-handed.

Give us your theme through subtext.

[sc111]

Interesting discussion (and thanks for the vintage link to Tao).

But going back to one of my original questions:

SHOULD the theme be overtly stated?

(I think not -- but I'm interested in what others think...)



I liked Tao's approach because he set it up as thesis v. anti-thesis, sometimes having characters debate the theme. I'd never worked it this way before but I'm doing it in the period piece I'm writing now. The first debate on page 3 is sort of overt. After this it's less obvious:

(Protag - Constance is caught reading a book when she should be working. The Head Housekeeper takes it from her. It's title: She: A History of Adventure):

HOUSEKEEPER
(reads aloud mockingly)
I know I can take him from her –
for dwells there a man upon this
earth who could resist me when
I put forth my strength?!
(snaps book shut)
You must push such fantasy worlds
from your mind. In the Lord’s world
a woman must accept her fate.

CONSTANCE
The Lord gave us each free will, Ma’am.
With free will a woman can guide her
own fate --

HOUSEKEEPER
If Mistress finds herself waiting for
you – your fate is certain doom.
(shakes out
velvet dress)
Quickly. Before someone comes.

I'd never stated it as overtly before. I'll see if it works once I finish. Oh - and the ugly velvet dress she's made to wear is also connected to theme - later, when she's attacked, a near rape, it's pulled over her head "like a shroud."

The entire story is about the societal conventions of late 19th century constricting a woman, and the protag struggling to guide her own fate. All the choices she makes spring from the theme And once or twice she almost gives in. Conceding to the anti-thesis.
Although it's never stated as overtly as above again.

I have to say Tao's thesis/anti-thesis approach blew it wide open for me. And like Wilson said above, it helps keep you on track -- no drifting off point.

[Joaneasley]

I like to express theme overtly somewhere around page 5. They've already met the main character and they've seen his flaw in action. Now I want to let the audience know in an entertaining way that this is going to be about why he has to overcome that flaw to live the kind of life he wants.

Since I write comedy, I might the express the theme in a funny crack another character makes to the main character about the awful consequences of not overcoming his flaw. Here's a sample line for a family comedy about a kid who has to learn to stand up for himself. After witnessing one of his failures to stand up for himself, his incredulous friend could say on page 5: "If you don't start standing up for yourself, Bobo Johnson will still be giving you swirlies when you're 80." The kid would make another crack back as if it were a regular conversation, but it would help the audience get where the movie is going.

[Robot17]

I like to express theme overtly somewhere around page 5. They've already met the main character and they've seen his flaw in action. Now I want to let the audience know in an entertaining way that this is going to be about why he has to overcome that flaw to live the kind of life he wants.



Yeah, this is around page 13 in my current script:

As Luther and Cierra leave, he yells back.

LUTHER (CONT’D)
Just remember Son, your people will be better off when you’re better off. That’s how life is, you have to look after number one first.

I don't think its preachy though - at least nobody has said so at this point. I have the antagonist state it rather than the protagonist. The protagonist up to that point is trying to save his family from destitution.

It may change by the time I'm done with it but maybe not.


Bot

[Joaneasley]

Yeah, it works just as well if the antagonist states his point of view, which will turn out to be wrong at the end of the story. Either way, we know the thematic argument in this story will be about whether it's better to be out only for yourself or to be altruistic.


Yeah, this is around page 13 in my current script:

As Luther and Cierra leave, he yells back.

LUTHER (CONT’D)
Just remember Son, your people will be better off when you’re better off. That’s how life is, you have to look after number one first.

I don't think its preachy though - at least nobody has said so at this point. I have the antagonist state it rather than the protagonist. The protagonist up to that point is trying to save his family from destitution.

It may change by the time I'm done with it but maybe not.


Bot

[altoption]

Here's a sample line for a family comedy about a kid who has to learn to stand up for himself. After witnessing one of his failures to stand up for himself, his incredulous friend could say on page 5: "If you don't start standing up for yourself, Bobo Johnson will still be giving you swirlies when you're 80." The kid would make another crack back as if it were a regular conversation, but it would help the audience get where the movie is going.

This is nice, but I'd like to see the protag's point of view here, in his response. Something that reveals that he's more worried about survival than self-respect. Yeah, well, if I do stand up, I won't make it to eleven.

I say this, because theme isn't as simple as "you've got to stand up for yourself." The question that makes this compelling, and universal, is how the writer explores the issue of whether to stand up for ourselves when faced with death. Or at least total utter humiliation.

[Joaneasley]

That would be an excellent reply for the main character. Our approach in the script we're writing is to make the friend an example of going too far in the other direction. Our main character doesn't speak up for himself enough, but his friend blabs the first thing that comes into his head at any moment, which can also get him into trouble.

So, our main character is more likely to reply with a crack like, "Yeah, well if you don't learn when to button your lip, you'll still be getting detention when you're 80."
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"This is nice, but I'd like to see the protag's point of view here, in his response. Something that reveals that he's more worried about survival than self-respect. Yeah, well, if I do stand up, I won't make it to eleven.

I say this, because theme isn't as simple as "you've got to stand up for yourself." The question that makes this compelling, and universal, is how the writer explores the issue of whether to stand up for ourselves when faced with death. Or at least total utter humiliation."