Patriotic screenplays?

[filmklassik]

Anybody on here care to speculate about the public's appetite (or lack thereof) for movies celebrating good old-fashioned, red white and blue, American patriotism?

In my view there are two kinds of patriotism that are ESSENTIAL to the well-being and continued existence of the Republic.

The first is of the questioning variety. In a word, DISSENT. Wariness and skepticism are vitally important in keeping our elected officials on track and serving the public good since, as the saying goes, eternal vigilance is the price of liberty. (And now let us pause for a moment as we consider the relentless, patriotic reportage of Mssrs. Woodward and Bernstein).

The second and equally important brand of patriotism is MARTIAL in nature -- the kind that rouses itself from slumber and heeds the call to arms when liberty and the American way of life are threatened. Pearl Harbor and 9/11 are just two stark examples of this. And to those of you insisting that war has never solved anything I remind you that it certainly solved Hitler, Hirohito, and the division of North and South in the 1860s after which – a Union restored – it allowed for the abolition of slavery.

But the final years of the Bush Administration saw only one kind of patriotism being celebrated on film – namely the first, dissenting variety (and no doubt our involvement in a seemingly endless and unpopular war was in large measure responsible for this). RENDITION, IN THE GARDEN OF ELAH, GRACE IS GONE, WAR INC, and other movies of their ilk reflected the cynicism and weariness of a nation losing its way.

And then came Obama… and with the handsome young President from Illinois came the promise of hope and change. Patriotic fever swept the country. National pride was restored. Who can forget the veritable sea of American Flags – hundreds of thousands of them! -- flying in the breeze on Inauguration Day?

So the question becomes, with Obama in the White House and his popularity soaring (at home and abroad), is the public once again looking forward to movies that reflect this new, flag-waving brand of American patriotism?

I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

[Sinnycal]

Wait, so "flag-waving" is no longer a pejorative?

[suzeaa]

Can anyone think of a patriotic movie that doesn't involve a hero?

[filmklassik]

Sinnycal: Well, if the term "flag-waving" still has a perjorative connotation then at least half a million people who turned out for Obama's inauguration have a great deal of explaining to do, because the mall in D.C. was a friggin' ocean of American flags. More stars and stripes than I have probably ever seen in my life!

And suzeaa: Forgive me but I'm not sure if I fully understood your question.

[suzeaa]

Sinnycal: Well, if the term "flag-waving" still has a perjorative connotation then at least half a million people who turned out for Obama's inauguration have a great deal of explaining to do, because the mall in D.C. was a friggin' ocean of American flags. More stars and stripes than I have probably ever seen in my life!

And suzeaa: Forgive me but I'm not sure if I fully understood your question.

Patriotic films have a hero, and doesn't everyone love a hero?

[Fortean]

Patriotic films have a hero, and doesn't everyone love a hero?

"The dupe of statesmen and the tool of conquerors." ~ Ambrose BierceJOHNNY GOT HIS GUN (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0067277/combined) might be something else to consider.

And, does this new spirit of patriotism mean that Yanks will stop putting maple leaf flags (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maple_leaf_flag) on their backpacks and luggage?

[wcmartell]

67.7% of an American film's audience is overseas. Film is a global product.

- Bill

[Biohazard]

As a member of the public, I'd like to say that I would never, ever see a film because it's patriotic.

Story comes first.

Plus, patriotism doesn't excite me. Sorry.

[Development Hell]

The only recent movie that celebrated the martial brand of patriotism -- which i think is so much more effective movie-wise than dissent -- was 300.

I don't think it was an accident why that thing killed the box office. No, it wasn't because it was a graphic novel (Why did Watchmen bomb...) I'd never even heard of 300 before I heard about a movie being made about it. It was the testosterone fueled love for one's country -- or city-state if you want to get picky.

Fill in America each time you hear Sparta in 300 and I think you'll know why it resonated with so many people in this country.

ETA: There is a thirst for patriotic movies that's existed for some time now. We never got the martial kind after 9/11. 300 was the closest thing. I think you're off base that there is 'now' a demand. It has always been there it's just the people who run Hollywood prefer the dissenting kind.

ETA II: If you think I'm grasping at straws for thinking about substituting America for Sparta in 300, doesn't that show how desperate I am (and a majority of moviegoers) for such a movie?

[cvolante]

I think the way you'd want to do a "patriotic" movie would be like Independence Day or that one with Otto-it-means-8 who was a double for the president. Can't think what it's called and I'm blanking on his name. Or that one where the president is Michael Douglas and he dates Annette Benning. Apparently I should get some caffeine before I continue with my day...

[Development Hell]

Dave and then The American President?

[NikeeGoddess]

67.7% of an American film's audience is overseas. Film is a global productthis may be why so many people from all over the world want to come here to live. they see our films and think we live like that. and then the other 32.3% hate us and think we're too proud... among other things.

[filmklassik]

Biohazzard: Trust me, I'm not gonna go see a movie just because it's patriotic either. I am completely with you, pal -- story ALWAYS comes first.

But here's a question (and please answer it as honestly as you can): Is it in your nature to AVOID a movie just because you know it's patriotic?

For a lot of people, the answer would be Yes.

[grant]

The question is really to vague to answer. If you ask people, a high majority would say that it's not a problem. Nobody thinks they're unpatriotic.

The guys who made AN AMERICAN CAROL thought they were being patriotic. A lot of people actively disliked that form of patriotism. If Bill O'Rielly makes a 'patriotic' movie, a lot of people will probably be turned off. It probably won't do well overseas.

But then again, one of the big summer movies is about "a real American hero" fighting "a ruthless terrorist organization determined to rule the world." It'll probably do well, even overseas. If there was a Captain America movie, that'd probably do well, too.

And do people in other countries watch 24? I don't know the answer there. But it's popular enough here in the US. It's one of my favorite shows, even though I'd want a real-life Jack Bauer locked up in Leavenworth.

As a single deciding factor, patriotism isn't going to have any more weight than if it's a Jessica Biel movie. There are many other factors that I'll take into account and give higher priority, such as the AWESOMENESS FACTOR and the 'SPLOSION FACTOR and how many ninjas appear to be in the movie.

[suzeaa]

The guys who made AN AMERICAN CAROL thought they were being patriotic. A lot of people actively disliked that form of patriotism. If Bill O'Rielly makes a 'patriotic' movie, a lot of people will probably be turned off. It probably won't do well overseas.


I see films like 'American Carol' as POLITICAL, not patriotic. Of course, many will argue.

[grant]

I see films like 'American Carol' as POLITICAL, not patriotic. Of course, many will argue.

That was sort of my point regarding the vagueness of the question. What counts as a patriotic movie?

Q: Do you get turned off by patriotic movies?

A: Of course not. I'm as patriotic as the next guy.

Q: Then why didn't you see MOVIE X.

A: That wasn't patriotic. / It looked stupid. / Cuba's way better than Ben Afflick.

[Sinnycal]

Sinnycal: Well, if the term "flag-waving" still has a perjorative connotation then at least half a million people who turned out for Obama's inauguration have a great deal of explaining to do, because the mall in D.C. was a friggin' ocean of American flags. More stars and stripes than I have probably ever seen in my life!

Type "flag-waving" into google and this is the first hit that isn't just a dictionary definition or wikipedia entry:

http://hasslington.blogspot.com/2009/03/i-dislike-dumb-flag-waving-american.html

If you keep looking, you might find a hit that doesn't use flag-waving as another way of saying "ignorant, racist redneck" on page 12 or thereabouts.

[Joaneasley]

Your question is hard to answer. I'm a political junkie, and I make my voice heard when I see injustice. I don't know if that makes me patriotic. Despite the Obama campaign giving out flags to reclaim patriotism for the rest of us, when I see a flag on a bumper sticker, I figure it's a Republican.

I like anti-war movies a lot more than I like war movies. Battles are not cool to me -- they're tedious, unpleasant and often endless and boring -- even in comic book movies that are supposed to be fun. But I always like to see someone standing up for justice.

I liked IN THE VALLEY OF ELAH but disliked other anti-war movies that seemed preachy. I liked DAVE and THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT, but I never really thought of them as patriotic. They were fun.

I don't like jingoism. I avoid right wing propaganda like AN AMERICAN CAROL even though it's by the guy who once made AIRPLANE! I'm more likely to see satires and stories with a leftward tilt, but only if I want to see them, not because I should.

I like to see people succeeding at a worthy goal, whatever country they're from, even ours. I guess I'm open to patriotic movies if I like them.

[dgl]

A movie like that might resonate with American audiences, but it certainly won't resonate with the liberal Hollywood decision-makers. A movie like that is way too conservative for their tastes. They find that sort of think repugnant and laughable.

That's why they missed the boat on Mel Gibson's PASSION OF THE CHRIST. Way too religious and conservative for the prevailing Hollywood sensibility. They didn't want anything to do with it.

HW doesn't want to make movies that might promote religious conservatisim. The prevailing HW ideology/sensibility is diametrically opposed to that. Even if it grosses over $600 million in worldwdie b.o.

Maybe if you make a flag-waving war-picture about a unit of all Gay soldiers who save the world while fighting both the enemy abroad AND anti-gay discrimination at home and in the military, you might have something HW could get behind (no pun intended...)

And I might even got to see that myself. Can you imagine the fun title possibilities?

I might have misread this, but are you equating patriotism with religious conservatism?

And anyone who thinks that Hollywood is nothing but liberal is forgetting that this industry has pumped out hundreds upon hundreds of flag-waving, anti-Nazi, anti-Imperialist Japanese, anti-communist, etc. cinematic fare over the past several decades.

And I'm not sure Mel Gibson is exactly conservative, so mush as radically fundamentalist. The Catholic Church is conservative, and I think it's Mel's belief that they went off the liberal deep end when they stopped performing masses in Latin.

BTW, many of the actual decision-makers in Hollywood aren't screaming liberals, but rather quite conservative. They make their decisions based on the bottom line.

[Biohazard]

Biohazzard: But here's a question (and please answer it as honestly as you can): Is it in your nature to AVOID a movie just because you know it's patriotic?

Patriotic films have never excited me. One would need a great story for me to pay money to view it.

Thing is...it's hard to root for your country and buy into all the flag-waving crap when there's so much wrong with this place, it's sickening.

So yeah, I avoid patriotic everything.

[nic.h]

I might have misread this, but are you equating patriotism with religious conservatism?

And anyone who thinks that Hollywood is nothing but liberal is forgetting that this industry has pumped out hundreds upon hundreds of flag-waving, anti-Nazi, anti-Imperialist Japanese, anti-communist, etc. cinematic fare over the past several decades.

And I'm not sure Mel Gibson is exactly conservative, so mush as radically fundamentalist. The Catholic Church is conservative, and I think it's Mel's belief that they went off the liberal deep end when they stopped performing masses in Latin.

BTW, many of the actual decision-makers in Hollywood aren't screaming liberals, but rather quite conservative. They make their decisions based on the bottom line.

What he said. :cool:

[nic.h]

I also think that a person's definition of "patriotic" and consists of patriotism varies. In my mind, a truly patriotic film is when democracy or political innovation is at its best. Not when the Machine is conquering all but when the individual makes a difference to the Machine. It's not about winning wars but about effecting real change and standing up for something you believe in for the good of - not just your country, but the world - and for the betterment of democracy.

Too many wars we've fought in (the West) have been for less than ultruistic reasons. The waters were too murky to be sure who's good and who's not. It's tough to turn that into a feel-good, my-country-is-awesome moment. Even for HW. Although Charlie Wilson's War did a pretty good job of it.

(No, I'm not an American but as we've gone into every battle the US has in recent history, as well as some they haven't, we share many of the same victories and, sadly, the mistakes too.)

ETA: I also thought Three Kings was profoundly patriotic because it demonstrated the best of American thinking and compassion, even if it was despite the system, not because of it. But that, IMHO is true patriotism. Not loyalty to a political system but to a belief system - a system to which our countries claim to aspire.

It's our job - as patriotic individuals - to hold them to it.

[filmklassik]

I take your point, Biohazard, so here is another question: Were you in the very least offended by the flags that came out during Obama's inauguration ceremony? I'm just curious and for what it's worth, I happen to know a lot of (very bright) individuals that were TOTALLY offended when those flags started flying... and these were people that had voted for the guy!

And nic.h, I take your point too... and you managed to sum up far more deftly and eloquently than I managed to do in my original post a working definition of what I call the first essential form of Patriotism, which is dissent. I agree with you that dissent and vigorous scrutiny of our leaders is critical.

But what about the second and, at times, EQUALLY vital brand of Patriotism nic... which is MARTIAL patriotism?... which describes the occasional moments in our history when it was necessary to fight... physically fight... or else give in and be crushed under the heel of an implacable, murderous enemy bent on obliterating our liberty (Hitler and WWII comes to mind)...

After all, nobody in their right mind believes that Hilter and Co. could be TALKED OUT OF perpetrating the Holocaust!

So my question is... How do you feel about fun, well-made but unabashedly jingoistic movies that take an uncritical view of the U.S.A. and it's oppostion to Hitler? For examples of this kind of storytelling see CASABLANCA and THE GUNS OF NAVARONE.

[Biohazard]

I take your point, Biohazard, so here is another question: Were you in the very least offended by the flags that came out during Obama's inauguration ceremony?

I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't pay attention to pointless politics, so I did not see it.

[filmklassik]

Biohazard: Gotcha. Hey, on an unrelated subject I think your "signiture photo" from ROBOCOP is tres cool. Amazing movie. Although I am now such an old wuss I have a hard time watching it anymore. Again, it is VERY well done but also VERY intense and violent and nihilistic (Peter Weller's "near death" scene in Act I may be terrific filmmaking but I find myself watching it nowadays with my eyes covered! I know, I know... but just wait till YOU'RE 43)

And you gotta love that final moment in the boardroom when the CEO says to Ronny Cox: "You're fired!" and then: BLAM!

[grant]

Patriotic films have never excited me. One would need a great story for me to pay money to view it.

Thing is...it's hard to root for your country and buy into all the flag-waving crap when there's so much wrong with this place, it's sickening.

So yeah, I avoid patriotic everything.

I've got one question, just because of the robocop pic. Did you avoid Starship Troopers? That had a lot of flag waving patriotism, even if it was meant to be ironic.