Need gun info....

[Cornell]

Need realistic military names of guns used in tactical ground warfare.

The Internet provides information overload, and I'm uncertain as to what type of guns would be realistically available after someone leaves the military or what they could get their hands on with the right connections.

Any suggestions would be helpful.

Please e-mail me (from profile).

Thanks bunches!

taplgcs

P.S. Hope everyone had a great holiday!

[dwickstrom]

Depends on the use of the equipment. A Tango-51 Tactical Sniper rifle is popular but depends on the uses you have in mind. Lot of military stuff is available to the public...

Little more info and I might be able to help yah out better, amigo...

Dan

[alipali]

check in research threads, this very Q came up, lo not more than a few months ago.

[dclary]

Hechler Koch makes a popular urban warfare rifle... the MP-5 I think.

[PteranoDon]

mompboken is the expert on guns, however, the old standby AK47 is still a good all around killing machine.

[alipali]

of course the silenced mp-5 has less penetration and lesser range, but it's quiet as a mouse...

give me a SAW anyday of the week

[Cornell]

I'll try to be a little more specific.

In my one of my current scripts, I have an ex-military commander from the Gulf War who brings his bunker team together years later to raid an underground military compound. It's only one scene, and I'm finished with the script, so I've gone back to that scene to clean it up and make it as realistic as possible. And, in doing so, I want to use the correct type guns. What weapons would his team most likely utilize from the list below? I'm pretty positive that I've compiled a list of guns/pistols that were used during the Gulf War--but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

M14 Rifle
M1A1 Tommy Gun
HK 94 Rifle
M-240B Machine Gun
M-9 Pistol
Hk USP ELITE Pistol

Thanks for the help guys--much appreciated.

taplgcs

[Unca Leo]

If you are talking underground compound, the team members would be less concerned with range than accuracy and stopping power. Commonality of ammunition is another concern.

M-4 Carbines (shortened M-16, sometimes mistakenly referred to as a CAR-15). A 5.56 mm weapon, standard US issue ammunition. Can be outfitted with a variety of accessories, including suppresors (silencers) for short range sniping (250 meters max true effective range), 40mm grenade launcher (under barrel, various types of rounds--fragmentation, tear gas, smoke, etc...), laser sights, short range combat sights (ACOG--advanced combat optical gunsight), etc...

An interesting possibility would be to outfit some of the team with Heckler & Koch MP-5 submachineguns, but in 10mm caliber (here) (http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/firearms/smg/mp510.html). The 10mm round is a powerful handgun caliber, not widely used.

Personal sidearm choices could be mixed. Current standard US issue is the Beretta M92 9mm pistol, but alot of soldiers long for the day of the Colt Government Model .45. You could outfit the team with Heckler & Koch Model 23 .45 Special Ops pistols, which were designed from the ground up for US Military Special Ops teams. I have one, and it's pretty darned incredible to shoot. Nearly impossible to make jam, accurate, with a threaded barrel to accept a suppressor.

Let's say you have some guys still outside providing cover. Some good sniper weapons would be the Heckler & Koch PSG-1, a hideously expensive 7.62mm semi-automatic rifle. Very accurate (here) (http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/firearms/sniper/psg1.html), also for a newer and more exotic weapon, the DSR-1 is a pretty good choice (here) (http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/firearms/sniper/dsr1.html).

[AnconRanger]

The specifics of a mission determine weapons carried.

I'd ask an airborne, ranger or special forces soldier. Have in mind the number, location and strength of the enemy, morale, objectives, targets, etc. How far do they have to travel to the target, and how do they get there, etc. Do they have support? Specifics. Those things determine weapons and the amount of ammo carried.

[Cornell]

Unca Leo, you're right--it's accuracy and stopping power that I'm aiming for in the confinements of this underground compound fight and the use of tear gas, as well. My only concern for the inside would be weight requirements, so going in with the M-16's feels right.

Also, is the reason that the M-16 gets mistaken for a CAR-15 because it's just a later model of the Colt Sporter type carbines? A short 16" barrel and fixed with an AR-15 type stock? Or is it just the difference in the sling assembly only?

And, yes, SS-ers will be stationed outside the compound and the Heckler & Koch PSG-1 works well with its scope mount, but what about night vision/TWS--wasn't noted in the specifications? Although night vision was mentioned in the DSR-1 specs, I didn't like that it was rail mounted and the fact that it seems to be the most advanced on the market…maybe a little too ultramodern for the mission of my guys.

Unca Leo, you are a peach. Well, okay, okay…you are the essence of creamed corn. :)

Thanks for your valuable time and expertise, and thanks to everyone else, too!

taplgcs

P.S. Ugh, I'm sick of gun research. :x Next time--I'll just use a rock and sling. Watch out Goliath! ;)

[Unca Leo]

I meant that the M-4 is sometimes mistakenly referred to as a CAR-15. The M-16, M-4, and CAR-15 are all descendents of the Armalite 15, aka AR-15, which itself owes its lineage to other weapons.

As for night vision scopes, those can be added to most weapons. The PSG-1 is actually custon fitted with a Hensoldt sight, but I'm sure any good armorer could make a NVS work.

[WordMan]

You'll want your crew to arm themselves from the inside out. That is, what kind of close in action do they expect? If hand-to-hand is an option, then you want to bring knives, cudgels and other means of resolving that.

Working underground, long distances are not a concern, therefore the next step is:

Close-in tactical fighting - this requires hand guns and sub machine guns.
Unca Leo's suggestions are sound.
I would go with the HK (Heckler&Koch) MP5 he mentions above, probably in one of the retractable or folding stock options the gun is available in, as you want your weapon as short as possible, inside the confined space of corridors and passage ways your crew will be working in. HK MP5A3 is a good option.
The longer barrel M-16 rifle is not that interesting. A longer weapon will get in the way underground, hampering your mobility and restricting your turning radius. The shorter submachine guns will deliver according to your requirements, and provide ease of handling.

Pistols. The Beretta Leo mentions is a good weapon. I'm an H&K fan myself, and would recommend the HK Mark 23 Caliber .45 ACP pistol. It's developed for the SEALs and Special Forces of the Army. Solid stopping power and extreme reliability. Very expensive. The military version has a 12 round mag.

One or more of your crew might be covering the approaches and the ingress/egress point with sniper guns. And the PSG-1 is good for that.

Your MP5 should be fitted with the optional under the barrel forearm light mount.
This is a plastic module that you can fit a Maglite (or the HK variation of that) into. Your opponents may kill the lights, to blind you - and you want to have a practical option then.

Working with night goggles is cumbersome, and unless your crew has expert training with them, they won't be of any help. Maybe one of your specialists could be fitted with those, and look like a pro when using them.

You mentioned tear gas. You'll actually want a selection of grenades and cannisters. If you use gas, then your crew will need gas masks.

One of your specialists could go in with the Heckler&Koch G36 rifle, fitted with the AG36 under the barrel grenade launcher. The launcher is compact, accurate, attaches in seconds and has a snappy reload mechanism. You'd use it to launch gas grenades, flash-bangs and anti-personnel grenades as well as high-explosives.

CS-gas cannisters will deliver your tear gas, your crew would throw those by hand.
You can also have gas grenades, launched from the AG36.

You'll want flash-bang grenades. These create a strong flash and concussion detonation, designed to stun your enemy (and your own men, if you don't pay attention or warn your crew). They blind the eyes with the flash, and burst your eardrums, causing you to lose your sense of balance while ringing your ears until doomsday (which usually comes about three or four seconds afterwards, if you're the enemy).

You may also want anti-personnel grenades. Warning: Using fragmentation grenades in a closed-in space, with concrete walls, is a recipe for ricochets that could take out your own men.

You would also bring smoke grenades, if you need to cover a tactical retreat, but you wouldn't be able to operate in the space you've smoked, so you wouldn't go in after smoke grenades underground.

One of your specialists should be knowledgeable in the use of high explosives. These include Det-Cord, which is a finger thick "cord" of high explosive that you can use to blow doors out of their frames, or to crack locks.

C-4 is a plastique high-explosive that you can slap on to obstructions, fit with a detonator and use to blow open things. (This explosive is very popular in films, but dangerous as hell. Explosive force can go in very unexpected directions - and unless your specialist knows his stuff, can do the exact opposite of what you've intended.) Therefore, you want to have shaped charges, that throw the explosive force in a specific direction. Just slapping C-4 on a door, doesn't mean the door will blow out, it could mean that the explosion goes in your direction, and the door remains standing.

Two items rarely seen in H'wood films:

Your crew will go deaf underground, after just a few rounds of fire.

If you have to use high-explosives, then your crew will also get serious concussion injuries. Running behind a wall won't do the trick. The concussion force will fill the enclosed space and blow your eardrums, unless the crew is warned, opens its mouth and hopes for the best.

You can't do anything about the deafness, though. Just take a shotgun, have someone fire it next to your head, and try to have a conversation afterwards. Now multiply that by hundreds of rounds of ammo going off inside concrete walls.

That's why hand signs are very useful.

If your commander has a nice cash flow, then he may consider equipping the crew with the removable HK MP5SD sound and flash suppression. This makes sense if you're going underground - and could be a nice feature in your film. It attaches to a variety of the HK submachine guns, including the one mentioned above.
The reason it's expensive, is that it doesn't require your crew to use subsonic speed ammo. They can go with their regular ammo, which means they get the stopping power they need, while the enemy doesn't know where the firing is coming from, and your crew gets to use something other than sign language the next couple of weeks.

Below you have a picture of that little beauty. Note the push in-pull out retractable stock. The sound and flash suppressor adds a little bulk to the front. Here, you'll have to tape your Maglite to the barrel, as the forearm light module mentioned above doesn't fit on the flash and sound suppressor.
The other image is of the G36 rifle. The AG36 grenade launcher is what looks like a pistol attached underneath the barrel of the rifle.

Go silent - go fast. The UK SAS say that their motto stands for Speed - Aggression - Surprise. That's the way to operate, if you want to get out of there with everyone healthy.

The best Op's are those where the enemy didn't even see you coming, and didn't get to watch you leave.

http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/pages/military/images/mp5sd_r3_c2.gifhttp://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/pages/military/images/ag36.gif

[Cornell]

Whoa, Wordman--nothing like having my own Rambo on DD, huh? lol

Thanks for the information. Between you and Unca Leo, I think I've got this major scene wrapped up and might even add a couple of scenes for my main character's backstory. I was going to do that anyway, but deleted them because I wasn't up on the weaponry and lingo enough. But, since doing all this research, plus having you guys add to it, well, it'll just make that one major scene much more convincing, which is what I'm shooting for here.

Also, never thought about the longer barrel of the M-16 getting in the way when my characters are inching around tunnels, so I see what you mean by suggesting one of the HK models. Hell, I might just go with the Beretta pistols and knives for the inside job, since this will mainly be a hand-to-hand combat mission.

I think I'll stay away from the flash-bang grenades because the package I'm trying to get out is delicate--my main character's son. And, as for the explosives, I don't want to bring down the tunnel walls around my main character or his men.

Can you tell me about the construction of military underground compounds? Right now, mine houses one main parking area at the forefront for about 50 vehicles, then various tunnels leading from there into other sections of the compound. The construction of each tunnel is pretty crude--mud walls with treated-wood framing. Is this realistic? This is the only other aspect of my script that I want to make believable.

I really appreciate all the help you guys have given me.

Thanks so much!

:)

taplgcs

P.S. I might not know much about warfare, but I make a mean camp-fire stew! >D ha!