In or out of mainstream

[Th2k]

I was having a debate with a gay friend of mine and he seems to feel that gay stories (or stories with gay characters) would still not sell in Hollywood. I feel that now that television has broken the ice a good story with gay characters has as much a chance as any other story. Especially lesbian stories. What say you?

2k

[RatWriter]

I agree with your friend but I don't think it's a matter of breaking in as much as economics. There's a lot of gay situations on the periphery of movies, but is there a large enough audience interested in immersing themselves into a gay romantic comedy/drama? A movie focused on a gay relationship puts the audience into a gay environment. With the vast majority of the US market straight, I'm not seeing enough interest because straight people prefer not leaving their straight environment.

[Strange Mind]

well i think it could partly be because there aren't a lot of good stories about gay people or homosexuality. i do not think it is enough to just write a story about being gay...or gay people and their lives, etc. it's all been done before.

frankly, it's just not that interesting. it's about the same as writing a story about being straight.

however, rat has a good point when he says it is economics...perhaps studios do not think that my best friend's wedding would work with an all male cast.

[lilybet]

Th, well ... it's certainly not taboo anymore. If you or your friend have a good story to tell with gay characters, write it. Of course, some won't be interested, true with any script. If it gets made, even blockbusters really only draw a small proportion of the population.

Trying to outguess the market is a waste of time. Let the producers and "D-people" play that game. They are in "the know," look how often they fall on their faces.

lilybet

[GirlinGray]

It seems to me "The Birdcage" and "To Wong Foo, Thanks For Everything, Julie Newmar" did just fine.

[Strange Mind]

you're right, i had forgotten about those.

[ksk2]

La Cage and Priscilla were better (original) versions of the presaid. And they had to be good stories with feduciary potential, otherwise there wouldn't have been the yank knock-off versions.

[TheByrd]

Visibility has certainly gotten better for gay/lesbian film in the past few years, especially since the very profitable 1996 release of 'Bound' (Wachowski brothers). Bound pretty much paved the way for some largely mainstream productions: Philadelphia, In and Out, The Opposite of Sex, Love! Valor! Compassion!, Gods and Monsters, Harrington, Object of My Affection, Wilde, The Bird Cage, and The Next Best Thing (though this one tanked, it was more due to Madonna's presence than to its gay theme).

And of course there've been many indies that have become breakout movies for either their writer, director, or actors: The Sum of Us (Russell Crowe), Boys Don't Cry (Hilary Swank), Incredibly True Adventures...Girls in Love (director Maria Maggenti), But I'm a Cheerleader, and Jeffrey.

Additionally, there have been many extremely successful pics that, while not exclusively gay-themed, featured central gay or lesbian characters: Boys on the Side, Kiss of the Spider Woman, Chasing Amy, As Good as it Gets, and many, many others.

Though more slow to evolve than is the film industry, television is also depicting far greater diversity these recent years with shows such as Friends, Spin City, Dark Angel, Mad About You, Sex in the City, and others...all which feature openly gay or lesbian characters. Then there are those newly emergent shows (post-Ellen days) that are centered around gay culture: Will and Grace, If These Walls Could Talk 2, and Queer as Folk. The times they are definitely a-changing. And, yes, straight folk DO tune in. So, contrary to what another poster said, there is a much broader market appeal to both these TV shows and to the aforementioned features--straights as well as queers enjoy them; if straights weren't tuning in or turning up in large numbers, these TV shows and feature movies would not be enjoying the kind of success they are.

So, contrary to what the hetero-centrists might say, if you have a compelling gay or lesbian-themed story, write it. I do agree that the 'oh-my-god-I'm-gay' coming out story is old hat. What sets the marketable gay/lesbian stories apart from the tankers, is a solid plot and interesting characters--who happen to be gay. (Bound, The Bird Cage (a remake of the far superior, La Cage aux Folles), Boys Don't Cry, Boys on the Side, Philadelphia, etc.)

A couple days ago I was perusing a list of recent script sales and movies-in-production within the indy market and was amazed that the majority of them dealt with gay and/or lesbian themes or revolved around gay or lesbian characters. So...

If you do decide to write a gay/lesbian flick...and if you happen to be straight...please do your research and learn something about gay and/or lesbian culture, politics, and sentiment before attempting to write it. We in the gay community would be much appreciative. ;)

Byrd

[wcmartell]

What Strange Mind said.

I think most people don't care what a character does in his private life - what's the story?

Since we're talking about 10% of the population, the story has to be something that would interest the other 90% as well. "What it's like to be Gay" stories aren't going to work.

Joseph Hansen has a series of tough-guy private eye mysteries with a Gay lead character. The car chases and shoot outs and mystery part are the same as any other novel in the genre, it's just the femme fatales who are different. I could see one of these doing okay on the screen.

Believe it or not: The FBI ran a Gay brothel in New York pre-WW2 to learn (from foreign sailors) where supplies were being shipped so that we'd know who had what before we entered the war - that could be filled with suspense. Kind of a Gay NOTORIOUS.

I think it comes down to finding a story the other 90% of the audience would line up to see. I mean, we all know about R2D2 and C3PO...

- Bill

[ksk2]

If Rosencrantz and Guildenstern were boffing each other, it would not affect my enjoyment of Stoppard's wit.

A certain mystery/thriller involving a successful writer was a great play and flick. The fact that Caine smooched Chris/Superman in it means nada. Great story? Great dialogue? Excellent twists and turns? That's what counts.

But a masturbatory "here's what my dating life was like and I just have to share it" piece of crap is still a piece of crap whether Jarmouche writes it or Heche writes it. Period.

[GirlinGray]

Bill, is that true? I love that. Can you imagine the staff meeting for that? "Okay, we need gay Feds right now so everyone out of the closet or else." That just cracks me up.

[ksk2]

But the casting would be a bitch (pun fully intended).

Though it would be great to see Jonathan Harris wheeled out as a "profiler"... :rollin :evil

[Strange Mind]

you think casting would be a bitch? i already see jude law, brad pitt, dicaprio...

[ksk2]

Just no French Stewart. Please God, no more French Stewart...

[Strange Mind]

or that little bitch from will and grace (no, i don't mean grace).

[ksk2]

What? You give him enough credit to call him a Bitch?

Nah. Udo Kier. Now THERE'S a bitch!

[Strange Mind]

what? you give it enough credit to call it "him"???

[ksk2]

You think "it" is really worse than French?

[Strange Mind]

well. you make a good point.

[wcmartell]

GIG,

True story.

But they didn't use Gay FBI agents, they busted an existing Gay brothel and forced the employees to work for the FBI (or go to jail). They bugged the rooms with old wire recording devices that had to be operated by the employees. The FBI actually collected a bunch of information from this operation - it helped us win the war!

Bet you won't find that in your school history books.

- Bill (researhing one thing and found another)

[GirlinGray]

I sure don't remember it coming up in any of Pressor Smith's lectures, that is for sure.

[RPM323]

And why exactly, is Sean Hayes being referred to as an 'it'? Seriously, I'm curious. Be as specfic as you like.

[TheByrd]

RPM,

It's called H-O-M-O-P-H-O-B-I-A

I know, I know...an awfully big word for such a small mind (not referring to you, RPM).

[Strange Mind]

wow, byrd you have such wit. i'm underwhelmed.

i won't speak for kosk but our thread came about because we find stewart and hayes irritating and annoying and dislike them for those reasons. nothing to do with either of them being gay. to the best of my knowledge, i don't think either of them is gay.

i'm sure it's maybe a touchy subject for you, for your own, intimate personal reasons. but try not to get your dress in a ruffle, okay, sweetheart?

[ksk2]

(And the title of this post is meant neither as sarcastic nor condescending...)

Dave Arquette is het, and an extremely annoying screen-presence/personality. It has nothing to do with his choice of partners.

The same is (ABSOLUTELY) true of Anne Heche.

Annoying personae are just that, irregardless of whatever "Flag" flies over their "head".

If we had made jibes about Kurt Russell, or Steven Seagall, I doubt there'd have been a complaint or joke.

BTW, have you ever seen the movie "SECONDS"? Starring Rock Hudson, and envisioned by Eli, one of the unfairly-blacklisted directors of the '50's? I have. It's one of my favourite films an stories of all time.

Also a big fave in S.F.

What do you think of it?

[RPM323]

The intent of my question was not to label charges of 'homophobia' at anyone. (not saying that's what you accused me of or anything), but I did begin to find some irony in comments referring to a homosexual character as an "it" in a thread about homosexuality in the media.

Although you claim your reference to Hayes and Stewart as 'its' is simply because you find them "annoying," my guess is that although you find Rusell and Seagal equally annoying, you wouldn't describe them as 'its.' Of course I could be wrong about that... If that were the case however, I guess I'm still a bit confused why these 'characters' are referred to as something besides their obvious sex. To me, it still seems as if the sexual orientation of his character - in reference to Sean Hayes - does have something to do with what you find so annoying about him.

I'll just say though, that you certainly don't owe me -- or anyone else reading -- further explanation than what you've already written.

In a sidenote, ksk... interestingly enough -- and even though the question was not presented to me -- I have seen SECONDS. It's an interesting film. Before I switched to film in college, I was a graphic-design major and one of my instructors in the art-department did all the paintings seen in the film that Hudson's character supposedly painted. As a wide-eyed know-nothing student at the time, it seemed a cool claim to fame to me. I know he was certainly proud of it.

[Strange Mind]

rpm: i don't mind answering your question because you asked without making a presumption, though i understand the irony that you've described.

edit: forgot to add that david arquette is an it, a few choice cast members of friends are its, and seagal is definitely an it. so was rick astley, former pop icon of the '80's, with such hits as "never gonna give you up".

kosk explained it well enough, so i won't go into it. but please don't take any offense at the condescension in my post. it wasn't meant for you. it was directed at byrd, who deserved it.

[ksk2]

...getting back to your question of saleability of queerfolk, I would generally agree with you and not your friend. Example: "Prom" movies are often made. I haven't seen one that doesn't seem trite, or fail to bore me. I didn't even find them interesting when I was "prom" age. However, the Bay Area has started a formal Gay Prom for teens. A script written about THAT would be interesting (IMO) as it would certainly provide fresh angles and elements to a tired tradition. And I think that would sell, since it would deal with several elements that could provide dramatic tension, wry humour, etc., yet not ram a soapbox down anyone's throat.

Best, kosk

[Meltdown]

Is "cardboard" considered an "it" element?

If so, Seagal is a 'it'.

He was here filming "Exit wounds" ( the bridge you see in the adds is Center street bridge here in Calgary)

From the reports the guy is a tool.

[Daughter of Lir]

Okay. EVERY single one of my best friends, save two, are gay or bi. I friggin' love Melissa Etheridge and kd lang can take me home any day of the week. I think Sean Hayes is fabulous, love that boy. And I think Anne Heche is a talentless twit who couldn't act her way out of the Co Co Club in S.F. (which I heard they were shutting down, dammit). My point is (although its rambling, sorry) I truly don't think the folks were being homophobic or ranting against gay actors, I just think they p'raps mischose the word "It". French Stewart irritates the living hell outta me too, but thats just my personal opinion of him as an actor, has NOTHING to do with lifestyle. <shrug> Getting back to GLB Hollywood: Queer as Folk has kicked my ass, I've really enjoyed the few episodes I've seen. However, I do have a major complaint: they are presenting all these strong and diversified gay male characters, and giving them very intense romantic/love scenes and so-called "provocative" material to work with. But the two main lesbian characters are hardly given anything to work with. They aren't given the same fiery dialogue and they aren't played up anywhere NEAR as much as the men characters. As far as GLB characters go in Hollywood, I tend to think we are seeing portrayals of gays far more than lesbians. I think that they often "cute up" (or dumb down?)lesbians -- see Willow & Tara in "Buffy", the "oh-so-wild" kiss between Sarah Michelle Gellar's character and the other girl in "Cruel Intentions", Ross's ex-wife and her partner in "Friends"... I dunno. Feel free to disagree, its just what I feel like I've been seeing. It seems the men are getting more "play" than the women in the GLB world on film, and I for one would like to see more strong lesbian characters. I have written a screenplay set in SF, yes it revolves around gay characters as well as het, and I am hoping it will have something to offer to people regardless of their lifestyle (yes, its my first attempt at a romcom -- never thought you'd see Miss Queen of Darkness here try THAT one, did ya?) ;)

just me .02, and *not* trying to be inflammatory, but I've been wanting to make these comments since the thread started. :) Hope your valentines night was lovely as mine and best to all,
DoL

[Strange Mind]

DOL thanks for understanding where kosk and especially i came from. you were right on.

you make a good point about the gay vs lesbian thing. everything we see a "gay" scene (men 2 men), it's "controversial" and a "riot". everytime we see a "lesbian" scene, it's hip or erotic or sexy. they're done in two completely different contexts.

2c

[Daughter of Lir]

yeppers! you hit the nail on the head with exactly what I was trying to say! :lol I apologize for my ramblings, guys. I'm having a touch of "fibro fog" (FMS) and my brain isn't working to swell right now... :( Carry on!