Subtly of Theme: Too Much or Too Little

[Dragonslayer02]

I recently read a wonderful script and it inspired a few questions. It had a marvelously weaved theme that had subtle aspects to it.

Well, I have a script that has four layers/themes. Two of them are obvious. They smack you in the face. The other two are far more subtle. I want those two subtle layers to be the real "art" to the story. With a nice big easy to see high concept/hook, how do you avoid that overwhelming the subtle aspects of your story in the eyes of a reader?

Film is a collaborative process as we all know. So, everyone has to understand the theme. If they don't, they get sidetracked with their own respective "visions". It's all fine and good (not really, but writers have to deal with it) for them to have their own "visions" AFTER they understand your "vision", but how do you ensure they don't miss the subtly in a high concept story?

How dumb do we have to write? Do you write your story and pray that someone understands all the aspects of it? Too much subtly? Or do you insert a little writer's voice to smack the reader upside the head every so often? Too little subtly?

Subtly is a trait of a good writer. However, far too many readers miss the subtle aspects. Maybe I'm just being negative and doubting the intelligence of people. I guess I've just seen some of the dumb and dumber over the years. Then again, there are some really smart and talented people too. I'm just in a negative mood. It reminds me of "Fight Club." Everyone was angry with all the violence in the film. They totally missed the point of the film (or most people did). The public reaction to the film kind of validated the theme of the film.

DS2

[Steve]

Sometimes it's okay to put a little flag or note to the reader because very often they'll miss the subtlties.

It can help to imagine what would be going through the head of an astute viewer and write it down. On one of my scripts I had a caustic woman who says lots of mean things to one of her friends but it's clear (if you read it semi-carefully) that she cares about her. I got the note that "we need to see that she really does like Beth." Loathe to add some line of dialogue like "I know I say mean things but I really like you" I added a line that went something like "She watches Beth, who is absorbed in straightening up the shelves. Her face softens. Despite what she's just said, she's glad Beth is there." Didn't change any dialogue but I never got that note again.

I was also told by someone who saw the all the drafts of "American Beauty" that the ending was pretty well spelled out in the early drafts.

So, yes, sometimes you need to tell them what to think. Just don't make them feel stupid.

[Bill Marquardt]

This is a question I have wanted to ask, also. The how-to books emphasize character development through subtext rather than on-the-nose dialogue, but my feelings echo yours in that I believe the casual reader misses the subtleties.

I hope a professional reader will chime in and give us a clue. When I read someone else's script, I read it slowly and make notes as I go along. I usually read it twice. I still miss some things, I'm sure. I've read stories of development people who go home on the weekend with a dozen scripts to read. That's a bit scary. No way they can give objective readings. Maybe it's just a crap shoot. I would hate to think so.

[Dragonslayer02]

Anyway, I don't think it's an issue of showing character likes or dislikes or conveying images. I'm talking about the deeper themes. It's the difference between reading a novel for pleasure and analyzing what its social/literary statement is. You know, the things you can't see. You see Jack like Jill. Okay, but what does that symbolize?

Okay, you see red roses in Alan Ball's script. Big deal. What do the red roses symbolize? How do subtle should you be in saying, "Hey, this is important!" and "Hey, this is what I mean!".


(SIDENOTE: Bill,
I think you know the line I'm talking about. My big writer's intrusion. I'm going to tone it way down, but it was out of frustration.)

[Dragonslayer02]

I just thought of another example.

How would you explain the thematic choice for Neo when he decides between the two pills in The Matrix?

All opinions and thoughts are appreciated. Thanks Steve and Bill.

[Lone Wolf29]

Your deeper themes, I think, come across in your choice of words, of language, scene descriptions, in your characters' actions, reactions, in what they choose to do and what they choose not to do, in your secondary characters (every secondary character should convey the theme or tone of your script in some fashion, however subtly)... they come across in your screenplay's STYLE.

But I think you can only go so far... I think you have to stop somewhere short of writing in brackets - [get it? get it? The mailman that keeps popping up at the most inopportune moments represents the main characters' desires to be delivered from their "stations in life"] (okay, horrible example)

That's my take,

LW

[GirlinGray]

Um, I think you guys are maybe playing a little fast and loose with the term "theme" here. Maybe that's just the ex lit major in me coming out (back, back in the closet, you), but theme, well, great works have one theme. Just one. And everything in a great piece, every choice, every image, every metaphor, every character and every story thread supports and contributes to, one way or another, that one theme. So you can't ask what is the thematic choice behind Neo choosing between the two pills. That is not a thematic choice. You have to ask what is The Matrix's theme and then ask how does Neo's choice between two pills support and contribute to that one theme.

Okay now I'm going to go write "you're not a lit major anymore Babe" on the black board 50 times. . . .

[Dragonslayer02]

Thank you. Yes, I was being fast and loose. For those of us who were not ex-lit majors (uhum... me), it's a good thing to be corrected. Better to learn in this environment that in a really important meeting sometime later.

If you start slinging history terms loosely, I'll make sure I am polite as well.

For ex-lit majors in the audience, what terms would be used to explain the concepts we are discussing?

DS2

[Steve]

This is interesting. I'm not sure I'd say a movie can only have one theme. I see what you're saying, GIG, but then what other word would you use? Are jealousy, unrequited love and hubris themes? Because I think "Crouching Tiger" explored all of those. Each of the different relationships between the main characters for me at least, suggested a different theme. They may all add up to a theme about the destructive power of pride but I still see them as distinct.

So what's the word I'm looking for here?

[GirlinGray]

Yipes. I feel like I'm back in college. Does anyone have any aspirin?

Um, "jealousy" is not a theme. It can be a thematic. But a theme is a statement of conclusion you can draw based on events in a work and their result.

Technically, if you study a work, different people may draw different conclusions as to what the theme of the work is, and can often support their conclusions using portions of the work to do so. So people argue about this stuff and there have been some pretty wild conclusions tossed around in association with different works. But ultimately, the contention is, most works of art in one way or another make a statement. That statement is the theme. And everything else is an exploration in support of that theme. Like, jealousy could be a thematic, but it would be contributing to an end conclusion i.e. theme reached by a work that could be something like "envy destroys the person who succumbs to it." That sort of thing.

Okay I have to go lie down now.

[ksk2]

I think we need to separate the term "theme" from "undercurrent", "subliminal referrence" or "subtext"...

(insert ingenously-raised eyebrow here)

Great thread, though... :)

[Steve]

Okay, I was being lazy when I just said "jealousy" or "unrequited love. (weird, just looked at this and saw that half of my post got cut off, hmmm must remember what I was trying to say. Here goes:)

I think the fact that differerent people can see the same film and each see a different theme shows that a film can have multiple themes. I'm familiar with the argument that a film can only have one theme but to me it's like the three act structure. You can break most good films into 3 acts. But you can break the same film into five acts or 21 steps or whatever template you want to use to analyze it.

What does everyone think was the theme of "American Beauty"?

[ksk2]

The real meat and potatoes of this thread, IMO, is not what's suggested in it's title. It's in a line from DS02's initial post:

"How dumb do we have to write?"

Which is not "theme", but does dovetail with theme.

How much clever stuff can we "cram in" before the eyes of the reader or audience start to glaze-over? I think that's the true cont-- (caught myself before I used that word, for the millionth time... ;) )

Because everything is con-- (ack! caught myself again!)

Let's put it this way: If you're writing something that - if produced - will be listed alongside HARD TARGET in the imdb under "Further Suggestions"? Due to basic subject matter? Yup. You have to worry about dumbing it down.

If it's something that'll be a further imdb suggestion for anyone who liked LION IN WINTER? No, you don't.

Again, we're kinda being general here, and it really does depend on the Gen--

(ack! Choking! Must-not-use-the-"G"-word-again....)

Cheers, kosk

[RubyToo]

Okay, I'll throw my hat in. Though I was never a lit student (I was always in the creative writing camp, even in undergrad) I've had my share of lit. classes, both as student as teacher.

Theme relates to the broad meaning of a work. What the whole means (the conclusion of the whole as Gig relates it). But theme is only important to lit. professors (and their students) and critics. It's not something that we as writers should think about too much. Because if we start out writing the "broad meaning" we start out with generalized crap. From the writers perspective, there is never just one theme. And I don't think many lit. people could get away with that narrow view in this deconstructionist or postpostmodernist age (that is a typical "New Critic" way of looking at lit. that caused a lot of the so-called culture wars in English Depts. across America in the early '90's--the short, flippant version of a long, boring story).

When DS talks about layers/theme, I understand that he is working with thematic choices. But that doesn't mean that everyone who reads his script will come to the same conclusions that he might be striving for. And I'd warn against trying to pound the reader over the head. As writers, it's always a bad choice to be obvious. Obvious "points" make me want to hurl things at the screen, call it a "grad student" project. You can't go wrong, i.e. you'll draw more followers, if you always strive for subtility. But how? By making connections between details. By making a rose evoke an emotion. By making a cat crossing the frame mean something specific. Repeating a line of dialogue takes on new meaning each time it's repeated. It's your job to make that line have meaning. If you work with details, specifics, you can't go wrong. Write the details first. Make the connections in the rewrite.

We all have our own "subjects" or "themes" that we continuously work with in our writing. That's our job...to figure them out, to make sense of the world as we see it. For me, my thematic subject always has something to do with "work". What it means, why the work ethic sucks but is at the same time redemptive. How the American Dream is really a suger-coated form of slavery. That kind of thing. It's always there, in the characters I choose to portray, the lives they lead. I just don't think of those "larger" issues when I'm writing. I think about why they like or don't like their job. What they think about as they plant that tree or sling that drink or hammer that nail. What they want to do on a Friday night. It's all related. But that's not the ONLY theme I have going. I deal a lot with sexual politics...who's up, who's down ;) who's, you know, whatever. Etc., etc., etc..

If you want to know terms to use to talk about these things, think about "symbol" or "metaphor" or "objective correlative". They are all "elements" of writing. They are the smaller details that help make a reader see the "larger" meaning.

As for the Matrix question...I'll add my .02 cents. His choice of pills is part of his character development. It was already established that he wanted to know what the Matrix was and at that point he had a very concrete way of finding out what it was. But. This character (and plot!) detail connects to a larger, recurrent theme: Ignorance is Bliss. That's not to say that it's the ONLY theme. It's just the only one I can think of tonight.

Okay, off my soapbox. About ONCE a year I miss teaching, i.e. I miss spouting off my own unique version of the world and then forcing my students to agree with it or else... :evil

peace,
Ruby

[ksk2]

And as for the Matrix pill-choice, I saw it as a direct physicalization of something that was set up right from the start: Neo was a fence-sitter. He had two lives already: Corporate cyber-flunky and the shadow-life of his "Hacherdom". But he really wasn't going whole hog for either of them; he was just "drifting". Enter the Agents and Trinity: now he has to make a choice. First he's offered a "chance" by the agents: he gives them the finger. Then he's offered the pills. The pills easily represent the two worlds that he's unwittingly been "dealing" with for some time. At least, that's what I got from the scene.

[Couchguy]

Consdier "Unbreakable".

The theme is "What is your potential?"

That's it. That IS the theme of the movie. Every aspect of the movie asks that question, not only for the hero, but as becomes clear in the final scene, for the villian as well. Potential for good and potential for evil. Strength and weakness.

Recurring motifs. Comic books. Superheroes. Capes. Unknown strengths. Hidden weaknesses. Secret identities. Water. Glass. Maybe some of those are more properly termed as elements which reveal theme rather than motif.


Dragonslayer, I'd be interested in hearing what you believe your two obvious themes are, and your two more subtle themes. Are they truly themes? Some of us may be able to help you explore ways to weave all of your elements together, creating a tapestry that...

okay, I'm exhausted. Themes, motifs, and interweaving elements does that to me. You wouldn't believe how much time I've spent re-editing the first four paragraphs. I hate trying to think deeply. My brain hurts.

Your pal,
Couchguy

[jacinthee]

"Theme" is a polysemous word and Hollywood has established its own definition, i.e. theme as the central idea/purpose/spine of a film. Until I started writing screenplays I had never seen the word "theme" used that way.

In literature, the word "theme" is used much more broadly and there can be more than one theme in, say, a novel, since it refers mainly to concepts, topics, ideologies.

To add more confusion into the mix, as per The Webster, a "motif" is 1: a usually recurring salient thematic element in a work of art; especially: a dominant idea or central theme.

Shouldn't the "theme" be called "motif" or even "leitmotiv" instead?

Wishing you all a great weekend ;)

[Dragonslayer02]

Thanks everyone. Great posts one and all.

Yes, I have a hard time biting off on a film having to have one "theme". IMHO (answering Steve's question), American Beauty had several themes (then again it could be boiled down to one specific one as well). One was how militant/repressive elements of society (represented by the son's father) keep those who seek "enlightenment" or "passion" down. Another theme was passion frees. Another one was people that are homophobic are secretly gay or, viewed another way, those that hate something secretly want it. Or you could break down the whole film into one question, what makes and what happens when passion lives or dies?

I tend to view themes/motifs as many rather than just the one big question. At least, when it's something that has been deliberately done as Ruby mentioned. The filmakers ensuring each image, piece of dialogue, and their timing all have importance.

Couchguy, I'm not looking for feedback on the specifics of my script, but I appreciate your offer. Unless you've read the script, it wouldn't really help and could be counter-productive. Besides, theme(s) are/is the one thing that are/is solely yours. Um, at least until it gets bought.

Best and thanks to all,

DS2

[Dragonslayer02]

I think another thing I was aiming at was how do you avoid the entertainment portion of a script overwhelming the art/theme.

I can think of two examples that were hugely successful but managed to maintain their theme. Star Wars was entertaining enough that you could simply watch along. However, on another more subtle (or not so depending on your viewpoint) level, it brings up questions of religion.

The Matrix is another. Wildly entertaining, but it goes into its themes as already mentioned.

How do you keep your entertainment from overwhelming your art? Well, my question was answered in the other thread by GiG. You can't. You do your best and pray.

DS2

[Strange Mind]

i might be wrong but i thought the one and only theme in american beauty was:

things are never as they appear.

maybe i'm over simplifying it, and alan ball did take it to many depths. but i never thought it was more than that.

i think it dealt with many ISSUES, but those issues aren't themes, to me.

and i thought the one and only theme for the matrix (and again, i could be wrong on the theme, and that there is only one) was:

ignorance is bliss and truth is suffering, but given a choice, which would you choose?

or something like that.

[GirlinGray]

Oh well I thought the themes for American Beauty and The Matrix were society will not allow someone who rebels against it to live (Am Beauty) and human beings by their nature will choose strife and challenge over utopia (Matrix).

[Strange Mind]

sounds good to me, too.

looks like we agree in there being only one theme per movie, pretty much.

[GirlinGray]

There can be subthemes just like there can be subplots. In general, there will be one overriding theme though just like there will be one overriding plot and subthemes and subplots support main themes and main plots or in general are supposed to because that is what defines the strength of a piece, how well it ties together.

Also people will not always agree on what the main theme of a piece is because interpretations of intent and meaning vary. There are even people who will argue an author's interpretation, saying Well sure the author thought he or she was writing about "this," but on a subliminal level he or she was writing about this other thing I want to see in the work.

But it usually comes down to, what echoes in the work? Throughout the piece, what keeps coming back again and again in different forms?

In Matrix, over and over again, it's the choice between challenge and utopia. Which pill do you choose? Which existence do you choose? Which destiny do you choose? Which life do you choose? Even the agent says the machines made a Utopia and people kept breaking out of the illusion, they had to have the illusion of strife and challenge just to accept the fascimile world.

"Theme" is a word with so many different meanings, though, this is "the" theme" I'm talking about, and the term will be used to mean other things like ideological concepts. When you talk about those, there is a Christ theme in Matrix. But that is not "the" concrete theme. That is an ideological parrallel and theme. The Theme in concrete terms is what the piece comes back to in a statement.

[LynnBZ]

That characters have theme as well.

There's the message of the story, which is the overall theme, and then each character represents a personal message.

Star Wars theme was David can win over Goliath. Luke's theme is zeros become heroes. ObiWan shows that the ends do justify the means(or alternatively, you do what you gotta do to get the job done, if that means consorting with smugglers, thieves, and murderers, or even committing suicide).

So to layer themes is ok, as long as you attach these themes to the right places.

At least, that's my understanding of theme from a writer's pov. :)

Lynn

[GirlinGray]

Um, Luke was a zero? I thought Luke was the archetypal heir to the throne/last hope for the future hidden and raised among the lesser classes till he could grow up enough to defend himself and pursue his destiny. The hidden prince an old old archetype.

[LynnBZ]

...in Star Wars, the "first" film, we don't know his heritage, except that his father was a jedi. All we know is that he's a stupid farm kid with extraordinary reflexes. For all appearances, he's a zero. He's going nowhere fast, and most of that stall position is his reluctance to move out of his comfort zone. Only when he's forced out of his comfort zone does he become something.

Only in retrospect with The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, do we see him as the hidden prince.

Also, I don't think his archtype has much to do with his character theme, which does shift from movie to movie.

In Star Wars, he's the zero who becomes hero.
In Empire, he's the one who says friendship is the most important thing.
In Return, he's adopted ObiWan's theme in do what you gotta do to get the job done...even though he doesn't do it with the same flair. ;)

You're right--his overall archtype is the hidden prince. But how much does archtype play in determining the theme of the character?

Lynn

[Couchguy]

Society will not allow someone who rebels against it to live.

That's GirlinGray's analysis, but I see it a different way, because many of the characters are rebelling (is there a single "normal" character IN the script?), but only one is killed. Further, there is a gay couple living openly together, very happily.

How about: You can not truly live unless you follow your inner dreams. (And to fight who your true self is is fatally flawed.)

Hell, I don't know, I don't have the degree in literature, and I only saw the film once, so maybe my memory and my education fail me in this instance. But every character in the film began flawed, and gradually moved toward a healed state EXCEPT for the characters which most strongly fought against their true selves. Didn't they?

SPOILER ALERT, READ NO FURTHER

Spacey followed what he wanted, discovered what he really was, was content, had his brains blown out.
Spacey's wife wanted perfection? Or was it just to get laid? No, it must have been perfection, because that's an impossible goal, and you're certain to end up wanting to kill someone if your goal is to be perfect.
The kids decided "@#%$ it, we're running away" and the implication was that they would have been much happier. (since we didn't see the aftermath, who knows?)
The military guy couldn't reconcile his hatred of homosexuals with his own latency, and became a murderer.
The military guy's wife was SO conforming that she was an automaton, living but dead inside.
The gay couple were the only "happy" people in the script--they had accepted who they were, were fine with it, and had plenty of time to prepare welcome basket for new neighbors.
The slut wasn't really a slut but wanted to be a slut but couldn't be a slut.

Unfortunately, I don't remember the opening and closing monologues, so I guess I'll have to rent the damn thing again and try to clue in a little better.

Your pal,
Couchguy

[jacinthee]

Quoted from Manil Suri, author and mathematician:

"In mathematics, if you're doing a theorem and trying to write down a result, you really want to be completely unambiguous and lucid. In writing, I think the best fiction holds something back, and is not completely laid out for you. There are different ways to interpret it. So that's what's nice about doing fiction. It's like getting revenge on mathematics."

I couldn't help draw a parallel between this and screenwriting. Subtlety and formula - two ends of a spectrum - a just dosage of the two for best results.

Couchguy, the American Beauty script is available on the web if you feel like investing it further, although it differs from the shooting script. Also, you don't need a degree in lit to have intuition and a good judgement. :)

Jacinthe

[Couchguy]

Jacinthee,

You don't have to have a degree, but GirlinGray's education helps...she is rarely off-point when someone asks a question regarding theme, structure, et cetera, and her real-world experience in the business makes her an invaluable resource for those kinds of questions as well.

When I asked my wife "what was the theme of 'Unbreakable'?", she thought for approximately seven seconds, and said "What is your potential?" Now, I had just read an interview with M.Night Shyamalamadingdong, so I knew that this was the right answer...but I wouldn't have been able to come up with that after just seven seconds.

So whenever there's a deep question involved, I'll usually put my money on the person with the education over the person with the intuition. Except when it's a Berkeley professor trying to argue the merits of Socialism--I mean, sometimes you're just *wrong*.

Your pal,
Couchguy

[jacinthee]

Oh Couchguy, I was not referring to anyone in particular regarding the degree remark. Actually, I have a degree in literature and what I meant was that it wouldn't automatically make my opinion worth more than someone else's without a degree. A lit degree will help with the ropes, terminology and theories, but sometimes it won't beat common sense, intuition or creativity. I also have seen my fair share of b.s. coming from supposedly educated people and in academic contexts. Basically, you don't need a lit degree to write a kickass story.

And I do agree that GiG's advice is worth gold. I'll never question that.

Cheers,

Jacinthe

[GirlinGray]

Um, I don't have a lit degree. Just so there's no confusion.

Smooches,

[Couchguy]

When you're dealing with Couchguy, there's always a bit of confusion.

Your pal,
Couchguy

[jedipoteat]

back to American Beauty -
I think the cover to the DVD wraps up the whole shebob in the tagline "look closer." Do you still see a nice upper-middle class family with everything a 'normal' person in American culture strives to obtain?
b-

[Couchguy]

The same could be said about ORDINARY PEOPLE...but it's theme certainly isn't the same as AMERICAN BEAUTY.

Your pal,
Couchguy

[Dragonslayer02]

Someone just started a similar thread on subtlety at Wordplay.

Our gospel is spreading.

Slayer...

[steeves]

From the boots up - even the little poster on his desk

(maybe you have to look closer to see it, tho :) )