Should I sent my script to a start up company?

[jayeL]

A self confessed "start up" company has asked to see my screenplay. Am I nuts to send it to them if they have no credits yet? Or should I go ahead with the attitude of having nothing to lose?

[wannabe]

You're a "start up" writer, aren't you, you want someone to take a chance on you?

Check my reply to Rainboy in the moviepitch thread about live being a crapshoot.

Just take precautions, register your script, send yourself a sealed copy, show it to friends who can vouch that it's yours if the necessity arrives.

[TinaRM]

I'm with wannabe on this one. Maybe they won't be able to get you the big deal that larger agents could - but then again...maybe they will. Take precautions, but take a chance.

[dude]

the "poor mans copyright" is a myth. doesnt hold up in court and a copyright lawyer will tell you that he/she would never present that in a litigation.

(why couldnt you just send yerself an empty envelope and put whatever script you want in it, then seal it?)

[TinaRM]

Dude - I was told the same thing. It is a myth that mailing something to yourself is copywriting it.

[Bill Marquardt]

I think one of the problems that a lot of us have, including myself, is that we expect our first script option to fall into the "$100,000 against $500,000" category. Not a bad goal to have, but we need to make sure our screenplay is a real killer. If a start up company has expressed interest, the script obviously has merit, but they will not be able to pay the high figures. As for me, if they made a solid offer that put money in my pocket, I would tend to take it, unless I were convinced that I could do better elsewhere. Heck, the first script isn't going to be the last is it?

Keep in mind, I haven't made a sale yet, so I'm just giving my humble opinion.

[dude]

(i keep loosing my posts and it drives me nuts)

" If a start up company has expressed interest, the script obviously has
merit, but they will not be able to pay the high figures."

if we are talking about a prodco/mamagement company, they dont buy anything but scented paper. as a matter of fact it takes very little capital to be a prodco/management company. an empty room in the basement, lil letterhead, phone line, an intern that werks for free and some contacts in the industry (say for instance the same contacts an agents assistant could cultivate within one or two years or often just film school is enough)
these little start up companys take our unsolicited scripts based on their specific contacts. they look for material that needs little or no effort on their part to be ready to "go out with".
usually an unproduced writer will be offered a free option by the prodco/manager. He/she shops the material around to larger prodco's with studio deals and studio money for a predetermined amount of time. These prodco's with studio ties are the ones who PAY for material not prodco/managers.

dude

[wannabe]

Dude, you're right, the poor man's copyright is ineffective...on it's own. But bearing in mind that if it comes to litigation, the judge/jury/arbitrator has to decide on the facts on a balance of probabilities (not beyond reasonable doubt as in a criminal case) which party is telling the truth and if any lawyer doesn't use whatever's at their disposal to make their client's case, then they're being lax. The poor man's copyright is just prima facie evidence in your favor. Taken in conjunction with other things, like registration, copyrighting the script (which you have to do to claim legal fees etc), testimony, etc, it may make a difference.

And it may make a psychological difference to those who're too nervous to send anything out?

[wcmartell]

My theory is that you can EARN from a deal or LEARN from a deal... and start up companies may offer neither.

In "Star Wars: Episode 1 - The Phantom Menace" Yoda says that there are always two Siths, a Master and a Pupil. For your first time, you want your partner (producer) to know the tricks of the trade, and pass them on to you. That way your first time can be a real education. You can learn from THEIR experience.

The more inexperienced you are, the more experienced you want your partner to be. You'll have more to learn, and that requires a partner with more knowledge to share. On the surface it may seem like a beginning producer and a beginning screenwriter would be the perfect match, but that's two pupils and no masters. You can't learn from somebody who doesn't know!

But everything depends on how "start up" these people are. For instance - if I decided to start producing movies tomorrow and got $20 business cards at Staples, I would have no credits as a producer... but I've been in the film biz for a while and have contacts (to financing/distribution) and some experience in making movies. A friend of mine has worked on film sets for the past decade and is getting ready to make his first film... though he has partnered with an experienced line producer to make his film, those ten years actually working on films gives him experience and contacts that would make him (or someone like him) a good bet as a first time producer.

It's when you get to people who have never done anything and have no contacts that you get into trouble. They don't have any idea of what they're getting into, and they're going to drag you along for the ride! Usually they don't know where to get money, or a distributor for their finished film.

Remember - the only money you can count on is the money they pay you up front. Everything else is some form of fantasy-money. It doesn't really exist.

Let's say they pay you $x up front and will pay you $xx when the film sells to a distrib. According to the LA Times, 98% of indie films DON'T ever find distribs and don't ever make a cent... they lose money!

What happens if they start filming your movie and run out of money halfway through? They OWN your script! There isn't even a film on video to show friends!

You can only sell your script ONCE.

- Bill

[GirlinGray]

Well I did not catch what kind of company this is, agency or production or management. Hmm.

In any of the above, I would want to know the background of the people involved. Someone starting up with a whole lot of past experience working with other people and in the industry will know something. Someone starting up with no experience whatsoever is a different story.

[dude]

wanabe,

CALL A COPYRIGHT ATTORNEY.

To protect your work; REGISTER the Copyright and regester with WGA. thats it there aint no more.

no attorney will bring up a mailed script as evidence... it wont hold up period. as a matter of common fact the defending lawyer will not allow it to be presented as it could most certainly have been tampered with. (steam that sucker?)

its rediculous as it has been explained to me by copyright attorneys. do you know that YOU yes YOU can purchase a postal stamp? and with this stamp you can change the date? YES change the date?

again bruh-man, what prevents you from mailing an empty, unsealed envelope to yerself and stuffing it with whatever wins the oscar for best screenplay 5 years later???????

(hint.. get the manilla kind, they always look old and tattered and they have those little metal tabs to bend it shut while it is in post... and maybe spit in a bottle just in case they do forensics to see how old the spit is.. where else will you find 5 year old spit?)

dude

[wcmartell]

If you do decide to go with a start up company, you need to get a top entertainment lawyer to do your contract. Someone who can guess what might go wrong and plan for it. You'll need a reversion clause, etc. Problem is - if there's no real $ on the deal, you can't get the lawyer to work on a %, so you'll have to pay him/her cash... probably more than you'll make up front. But that's the only way to protect yourself from all of the things that can go wrong with people who have no experience making films.

There are enough established companies looking for scripts that I don't see why you'd want to deal with a start up (unless they are established in the biz).

The "master/student" thing works both ways - a new company is better off buying a script from a writer who has some experience so THEY can learn. Especially if they are working on a limited budget.

- Bill

[Couchguy]

As soon as you write something, you own the copyright. You don't have to register it with anyone to own the copyright. I just wrote a poem on a napkin. I own that sucker.

HOWEVER, in order to PROVE your ownership...this is where registration comes in. Registering with the WGA will prove that you sent the WGA something that you claim that you wrote. Registering with the U.S. Copyright Office will prove that you sent the Copyright Office something that you claim you wrote under penalty of perjury.

HOWEVER, if you're afraid that someone will steal your work, keep in mind that it's not enough that you can prove that you wrote something by a certain date. You have to prove that the OTHER PARTY HAD ACCESS TO IT, and INTENTIONALLY copied your work. Man, that's difficult.

Bottom line...it's probably enough to register with the WGA (but don't note this on your script...it says "rookie"), send your stuff out and hope for the best. You're not going to win a plagiarism case anyway, unless you're an established writer. Buchwald beat Eddie Murphy, George Harrison got beat because he copied a hit song...how many unknowns win a plagiarism beef? They don't. So register your stuff, send it out, cross your fingers, and maybe you'll get lucky.

Your pal,
Couchguy

[dude]

"Registering with the U.S. Copyright Office will prove that you sent the Copyright Office something that you claim you wrote under penalty of perjury."

WHAT?? couchguy, thatS what registering the MATERIAL at the WGA or anywhere else does... registering your copyright does MUCH more than that. you can learn what by READING @ the library of congress/copryright office website linked here on done deal.

i honestly dont think anyone should dispense advice to newbees unless they, themselves, have done their homework. I think most who post on this board realize the responibility that comeS with giving advice to others. The regulars generaly answer what they can and diScuss what they are not sure of WITH HUMILITY and a shared interest in finding the truth. These kids are here with open minds asking for direction.

what happens when a young screenwriter reads a post that says "WGA reg. is prolly enough" and 3 years down the line finds that their script is now a movie???? that writer will undoubtedly want to litigate. BUT WILL BE UNABLE TO COLLECT ANY OF THE FILMS PROFITS BECAUSE HE/SHE DOESNT HAVE A REGISTERED COPYRIGHT. A REGISTERED COPYRIGHT ENTITLES THE AUTHOR TO LITIGATE FOR DAMAGES.. WGA OR ANY OTHER DEPOSITORY REGISTRATION DOES NOT. its industry standard, yes, but NOT the library of congress. if anything, registering the copyright is enough.

im going to say this one more time and walk away...

to protect your script:

REGISTER your copyright and register with WGA.

Thats it peeps. thats all. no more no less.

we are supposed to be helping each other here. if anyone else wants to argue they can email me haackbaack@aol.com instead of junking up threads.

dude

[Couchguy]

Registering with the U.S. Copyright office does not "entitle the author to litigate for damages" as you so strenuously put it in your post. You have the RIGHT to sue for damages at ANY time, whether you have registered your work (or not) with the U.S. Copyright office (or anywhere else)...PROVING you deserve to collect those damages is another matter entirely. (A discussion of the difference between rights and entitlements can wait until later.)

Case in point: Stephen King writes a manuscript, and on the way to his publisher's (and BEFORE he has registered his copyright) his car crashes and he (and the manuscript) are resuced by a crazed fan. Is the crazed fan legally allowed to publish his manuscript and make millions? Of course not. But if she does, is Stephen King legally allowed to sue her and collect damages? Of course, if he can overcome his hobbling. Mr. King's failure to register the manuscript with the Copyright Office (or anyone else) does not prevent him from suing the pants off of Kathy Bates (if that is indeed the crazed fan's name) if he can escape her Deathtrap, and PROVE that he is the true author.

I'm sure that if you read the Copyright Office's legalese carefully, you will find that a "copyright" exists from the MOMENT THAT A WORK IS CREATED, not after registration, and registration is NOT required to exercise your copyright. I'm sorry if this rubs you the wrong way, but I have rights in this country...and I don't have to notify the government every time I want to exercise a right. When I write a screenplay, it's copyrighted, whether I tell Big Brother about it or not. Or maybe you'd like to debate that point. You'd lose, but it would make for interesting clutter.

The Copyright Office can say that you registered a work with them on a certain date, and that you swore the work was yours. They will NOT send officials to testify that you DID write it...only that you said you did. So for my two cents (or is it $45?), it's not really that much better than registering with the WGA, except that the Copyright Office will lose your manuscript much faster than the WGA and be far less responsive to service issues than the WGA. But hey, it's your money...go ahead and send your money to both Hollywood and Washington, if you're really that concerned. Dude.

Your pal,
Couchguy

P.S. Can I get an amen?

[ToddinHB]

Couchguy... Amen!

[sarumu1]

www.wordplayer.com/column...olumn.html (http://www.wordplayer.com/columns/wp04.Steal.this.Column.html)
check out that column on plagiarism and other assorted pearls of knowledge re. wga and copyrights.

[dude]

"""I'm sure that if you read the Copyright Office's legalese carefully, you
will find that a "copyright" exists from the MOMENT THAT A WORK IS
CREATED, not after registration, and registration is NOT required to
exercise your copyright. I'm sorry if this rubs you the wrong way, but I
have rights in this country..""

couch, mayhaps a course in reading comprehention....

what the hail are you talking about? never would i debate this.. i am not debating this.. i am perfectly aware of when a copyright begins... not surprising that you are restating obvious points.. you may go on in circles my friend but, i dont have the time... again, your problem here is you dont seem to READ very well.

dude

PS i have been in litigation over one of my screenplays... against a well known agency/agent. and i am telling you with all good intentions that you are giving poor advice. someday when you move up the ladder you will hear it from people you respect more than me that copyright registration isnt an option.. you do it automaticly..its just good sense. im outtie (and this time i mean it) : )

[Steve]

After reading the above posts, I'm afraid to say this with any certaintly now, but it's my understanding that a copyright applies to the right of publication. It doesn't cover a script being turned into a movie. And the WGA will not litigate on your behalf if you are a non-member. It's just a third party which will record a date and a name to a draft of a script. And on top of all that, most ideas and stories have been thought of. If you send a script to Paramount about a jewel thief and two years later they release a movie about a jewel thief, don't call a laywer, just keep writing.

But to take a more positive view, it's generally cheaper for a prod. co, especially a start-up, to option your script rather than risk the legal fees and problems involved in stealing it.

[BigBadDrew]

I don't really see what you guys are actually arguing about. If someone wants to be as safe as they possibly can be, they should register with the WGA and with the US Copywright office. Of course they don't have to, but it doesn't hurt them to do that. It's their money and if they wish to spend it that way, it's up to them. There's nothing wrong with covering all the bases you can.

Herein lies the problem: if someone really wants to steal your script, they're gonna steal it and there's damn little you can do about it. I don't care if you've registered it with the Almighty himself. Sure, you can start some long legal tussle, but the person you're suing probably has more resouces than you do to fight the case.

I personally don't believe that producers and agents sit around plotting ways to steal our scripts, but I'm sure there are a few bad apples out there. I've had ideas that I believe COULD have been stolen, but there's no real way I could prove, registered or not, that they didn't just have a similar idea.

[TinaRM]

Let's write a movie about a production company who steals scripts and see if we can find a production company willing to do the project....hehehehehehehe!!!!

Tina

[wcmartell]

Copyright DOES apply to screenplays (they even have a special form). It also lasts your lifetime plus (I think) 50 years. In every other country, in every other industry, copyright CAN NOT be sold. A French screenwriter OWNS his script forever, and leases it to a producer for a fixed amount of time. That screenwriter still has the right to sell that same exact script to an American company, a Japanese company and a German company for different language versions of the film. (a friend of mine sold a script to a German company, and retained ownership - but he can't find a US company that will buy "rights" rather than the copyright.) He can reuse his characters in other scripts. The US is the only country where copyright can change hands (without someone dying).

But once this guy has all of that paperwork in his desk drawer, should he sell his script to Biff Productions?

- Bill

[Couchguy]

Dude,

My problem isn't that I can't read...it's that you can't write.

These are your words (and your caps): "A REGISTERED COPYRIGHT ENTITLES THE AUTHOR TO LITIGATE FOR DAMAGES.. WGA OR ANY OTHER DEPOSITORY REGISTRATION DOES NOT."

Now, as I pointed out in my earlier reply, you are wrong, and it's probably because of your comprehension, which is remarkably poor. The word "entitles" is incorrectly used by you to indicate that the government has granted an author the power to litigate for damages in copyright cases. The government does not grant this entitlement, because it isn't an entitlement...it's a RIGHT (caps mine). It's not a copyentitlement, it's a copyright. I guess this is the discussion of rights/entitlements I said we'd have later.

I have the right to sue someone for infringing on my copyright. Period. This right doesn't begin when I plead to the government to let me do it. This right exists as soon as I write the words. Whether I EXERCISE this right is MY decision, not the government's. If I have taken proper steps (registering my work with the WGA and/or the Copyright Office, keeping written records of who reviewed my work and when), then success in my lawsuit will be more likely than if I had just written something down, sent it out, and trusted to the kindness of strangers.

Entitlements are things that the government gives to us. Welfare is an entitlement. A student loan is an entitlement. Even the schoolhouse itself is an entitlement. Rights are things that citizens have at all times and can not be taken by the government. Free speech. Peaceful assembly. Gun ownership (unless you live in New York City or some other place where the Constitution has been winked at).

Yes, it is good to register your work with the WGA and/or the Copyright Office...but registration is not REQUIRED for you to be able to exercise your rights against copyright infringement. Now...what part of that didn't you understand? Because I can explain it a third time. I'm patient.

Your pal,
Couchguy

P.S. Can I get a hallelujah?

[TinaRM]

I'm sorry, I didn't get that. Would you mind explaining it one more time! LOL! Here's my hallelujah!

Tina

[Couchguy]

TinaRM,

Maybe I should make a Venn diagram...see, this circle is a right, and this circle is an entitlement. They don't overlap, but this circle is you, and this one is the government, and they overlap like this, and then this one is comprehension, which overlaps right here...

Your pal,
Couchguy

[DWB1125]

As I have read this thread, I cringe at the incorrect information given, and the correct information that is not explained enough to be 100% correct.

As far as the original question, if the start-up has money or you like them, then go for it. If not, go elsewhere.

On the copyright issue:

Couchguy - Copyright is an entitlement that Section 17 of the United States Code gives to "authors". There is specific language that allows that the author of a work owns the copyright to that work from the time it is "affixed" (meaning pen to paper). Registering a work with the US Copyright Office "entitles" you to add to your lawsuit a claim for attorneys fees, and treble damages (punitive damages, usually three times the actual damages). The amount of money you can get is ostensibly quadrupled by registering your copyright. All due to the Federal Copyright Laws.

Without registering, the only laws you can sue under are state common laws, which don't allow for the same damages (meaning less).

Registering with the WGA does ONLY two things: establishes a date of creation, and archives a copy of your work for five years. That's it.

On a practical side, if you only have the money to do one, send it to the copyright office. An even more practical look at it, nobody (at least anyone I've ever dealt with) wants to steal your script. They are much more concerned with being sued than you are with being ripped off. They've paid lawyers to create release forms and submission standards to protect themselves from all the lawsuits (and making it much harder to submit material).

Take the steps to protect yourself and stop worrying. Focus on writing your next script.

[BigBadDrew]

Well said!! A round of applause for DWB1125.

Thank God that's settled. I don't know what's worse, the clowns or where this thread has gone!!

[Bill Marquardt]

If anyone sings "Send in the Clowns" I'm going to be ill.

[TinaRM]

I'm telling you, I am psychic! I was going to post that very thing (I'm not kidding) - but since I had told you I wouldn't say anything more about the clowns, I didn't! LOL! That is so funny!

[Daughter of Lir]

Bill: <swat!>

<laughing> That was wrooooong, my friend, very wrong...(and this is all funny considering I was watching "Poltergeist" this a.m., with its killer clown...)

I'm diggin' all the info here, but, erm... which theory is correct? I was actually being anal about "protecting my stuff!!!!!" <visualize voluptuous Gaelic woman clutching papers to her chest and shrieking> So if I understand a recent post, you SHOULDN'T worry about doing the full-out copyright to your "baby" before sending it off to be perused?? Mah little cynical/paranoid butt is leery o' that idea. (was wondering if this applies to poetry I was considering sending to publishers too...?)

[Couchguy]

DWB,
I am willing to admit that *I* was less than precise in my earlier posts, which is something that any righteous Dude should admit to...well, almost any Dude.

While your "copyright" exists from the moment you write something down, you haven't legally secured ALL your rights until you register your work with the U.S. Copyright Office, at which point all kinds of other protections kick in.

There, I think that's succinct enough.

Your pal,
Couchguy

[Steve]

You can read all about it on the Copyright office website.
This is the link to their FAQ

www.loc.gov/copyright/faq.html#q1 (http://www.loc.gov/copyright/faq.html#q1)

[Bill Marquardt]

Q. Should I send my script to a start up company?

A. Maybe.

'Nuff said.