Paranoia - paranoia - paranoia

[wannabe]

Okay

I've been lurking at or posting on this board for over a year now, have spent many hours visiting other sites and have come to the conclusion that the level of paranoia amongst new screenwriters is astounding. This is aimed at no poster in particular, it's just an observation that has been reinforced by recent threads (the "I need a Pro..." one being an example).

We hide behind anonymous monikers, bemoaning the system that is Hollywood, bemoaning the exclusivity of the WGA and how hard it is to get read, how hard it is to get an agent and so on, then we cling to our scripts in terrified anticipation that if we let someone read the thing, they'll love it to death and steal the hell out of it.

Come on, guys, face facts. 99% of newbie scripts are never going to get bought, never going to get made. And that's not because the script isn't good, not because the writer is a no-talent hack, it's due to various factors (a major one of which IS the Hollywood system and the form of contact-nepotism that pervades the business).

And that 1% script? The one that is so awesome it knocks anyone who reads it flat? The one that launches a newbie from no-name-brand-land to 'overnight' sensation? Well that happens because the script got read. If no-one reads it, it never gets made. Simple as Pie (Ry-Ry).

One has more chance of finding a fingernail in a coke bottle (and launching oneself to wealth and prosperity on the back of an over-litigious society) than of someone successfully stealing one's completed script. If the script is so good that it's worth stealing, it'll be a helluva lot cheaper and quicker to purchase it from a newbie than to steal it. [Ideas, on the other hand, are much more easily stolen and that's why one should think seriously before posting loglines of high-concept ideas.]

Before I get lambasted, let me acknowledge that theft does occur (yes Kosk I know about Jingle all the Way - so does the court and the jury who awarded the damages) and because it does, we should all take necessary precautions such as registering the script, keeping a complete paper trail etc. But let's not be so paranoid that we question everyone's intent.

Life is about risk. Screenwriting more so. So if a pro offers to read your script, you clutch that life line like there's no tomorrow. You accept any reasonable condition (and what constitutes reasonable, I suppose, is dependent on the individual) and you take a chance. Because while there's an extremely remote chance that he might steal the idea, there's a better chance that if he thinks it's worth stealing, he'll think it's worth buying or lauding or supporting. And if that happens, this potential pilferer might be the first contact that one has in the Hollywood hierarchy, and that my friends, is gold.

[Strange Mind]

i don't disagree with much of what you say -- it's a positive attitude. but allow me to offer the flipside of the coin:

most newbie scripts never get sold because, simply, they're shitty. that's a plain, simple fact. and all that other stuff about hollywood and the chain of command and the protocol and all that stuff, is true. but it's not the number one reason a newbie won't get sold. the newbie doesn't get sold, because the newbie isn't a good writer -- yet.

the other factor is -- you spend x amount of time writing that script. let's assume it's not 3.5 weeks. let's say...6 months to a year. which is reasonable for an early writer with all the polishing required. it's understandable (and maybe not unreasonable) for them to feel very protective over their work. after all, not all of us came into the biz with managers and/or agents to take care of us and protect us. most of us are like that single sperm trying to get into that egg. it's a savage wilderness.

and of course, the horror stories. check out the storybay thread in the business section of the forum. and the general fear that new writers are easy targets. all these combine to create quite a strong and perhaps sometimes necessary sense of paranoia.

of course if you grow that paranoid, you're going to hold on to that script and no one's going to read it, and that's ultimately worse. but i think you just have to be intelligent and intuitive enough, and hopefully have some sort of support system you can trust, to take that chance. and if you're not...well...it's the survival of the fittest, in some regards. maybe getting burnt might be the best thing that happened to you, business-wise.

you know what they say about fooling you twice. shame on you.

[Sumaleth]

Paranoia can come from something else not mentioned above; other writers.

While I'm sure studios and production companies would be far more likely to purchase a script than to make a version on the sly, writers by their very nature are always on the lookout for interesting stuff. We listen to people talking, we watch movies similar to the ones we're writing, we read news papers with a keen eye, save funny quotes from IRC etc etc. Continually absorbing the world around us for those cool little nuggets that can spice up a story.

So the paranoia that i have more than the other mentioned (but probably just as silly) is that 'readers' will get cool ideas from reading my scripts and use them in their own work. I'm sure most (all?) of them are writers too, and they'd almost certainly be comparing each script they read with their own work (in the back of their mind). It'd be hard not too.

Row.

[RatWriter]

I have to agree with SM. Having read AmerZeotrope & Greenlight scripts, most of what's written belongs next to the crapper.

Suma,
I get most of my ideas from produced films. I started writing screenplays because I'd see a film and say, "I can write a story like that."

My first script was from "The Verdict."
My second was inspired by "The Sixth Sense."

I have 10+ ideas outlined and most were inspired by films I've seen. None inspired by scripts I've read... yet. mu-hahaha

So, you're right about other writers grabbing ideas. If you're worried about another writer taking your idea and writer a better script your concern should pointed to improving your own talent.

[Squirrel Bait73]

Any thread with that title is hitting too close to home. Just kidding. I love it.

Anyhow, I think your point is ESPECIALLY valid in light of the "I need a Pro..." thread as it relates to someone being worried that his/her work is going to get ripped off, considering that Jeff Schechter is/was not hiding under an anonymous moniker and it takes just a minute amount of research to find out who he is. Jeez, just a TINY bit of legwork will tell you that he's not some low-life on the fringes of Hollywood, but a PRODUCED WRITER. A @#%$ PRODUCED WRITER for God's sake. Oh, sorry. I got a little carried away there. But my point is, he is known, he is in the public eye and he couldn't afford to rip someone off and would have no reason to do so in the first place.

Squirrel Bait

[jacinthee]

Writers stealing other writers' ideas?

Of course it happens, but isn't there a code of honor somewhere? I like to believe so. Personally, I would never get caught dead with someone else's material, not because I'm scared I could get caught, but because I like to come up with my very own damn stuff, thank you very much. Being derivative sure ain't my thing. I know you can't reinvent the wheel and getting inspired from produced work (observing what works and what doesn't work) is a part of the process. I will also eavesdrop on morons-obviously-without-any-literary-aspirations-whatsoever at the mall, no problem. But ripping off other writers?

Whenever I collaborate with another writer, it's exactly to do that: collaborate. I like helping fellow writers cause I get precious help in return and I learn from seeing how their method differs from mine. Not cause I want to suck the life out of them.

But that's just me.

Jacinthe

[Jeff Schechter]

Squirrel Bait:

Thanks for the nice words of support.

I think Bob Kosberg addresses the whole getting ripped off thing nicely on his website. Check out www.moviepitch.com and in the contents frame on the left-hand side click on "Rip Off?"

JEFF SCHECHTER
www.totallywrite.com

[Mark 1]

Well said. What you posted and how you presented it was pretty accurate.

[Strange Mind]

code of honour? amongst writers?

considering this is the one thing that any tom, dick or harry could decide to delve into -- it runs the gamut from grocery baggers and blockbuster employees all the way to your lawyers and doctors -- i wouldn't count on any code of honour. you're going to meet the people who want to screenwrite because it was what they were born to do, but you'll also meet the people who just want to be able to SAY they're screenwriters, and not much else.

we've seen both kinds here on the boards. including a potentially rather nasty incident, caused by a submission by a poster who's disappeared now. you have to figure out whom you can trust.

[jacinthee]

I forgot to mention that I agree with Wannabe's post.

I realize I went off on a tangent in my previous post and that I should have been more specific: I was addressing the issue of trusting writers as a whole, not specifically posting scenes on the internet. I agree that posting anything on the internet is a risky thing to do. But some people are scared to show their material to anyone at all, so I'm not talking either about trusting just about anyone who call themselves "screenwriters". Indeed, you do have to figure out who to trust (and it's better to take time figuring it out who's trustworthy than not be willing to trust at all).

I have no problem with giving a grocer with talent the chance to become a screenwriter, but on the other hand, I wish that hack wannabes would stop cluttering the channels. All hacks do not necessarily steal. But anyone who would need to heavily borrow from others in order to write, in my book, should not be considered writers and can only get so far in doing so (at least 99% of them). If those bozos give the profession a bad name and make some talented writers hide in a corner clutching their material (when they could benefit from other people's help), then that very much bothers me.

And yes, I'm not talking b.s. Klingon honor, but I do believe real writers should have a basic respect for their colleagues and their art. Business or not.

Done being cranky :)

Jacinthe

[Strange Mind]

you mean you were cranky? ;)

well i didn't mean to imply that your background or career had anything to do with whether you'd steal or not. so maybe that wasn't the best way to make my point. all i was saying was that you get all kinds. and some feel less inclined than others to act or behave honourably at all. some people you can trust, some you just can't.

not unlike most situations anyway. plus if you really are a good writer, and you have an excellent script that's been well-written, well-polished and is in tip-top, it's unlikely that someone who stole the idea could pull it off as well as you. unless they were a better writer, or as good, and if that's the case, they probably have their own work to show.

[AndyWarholsGhost]

Alrighty,
In all seriousness, I would like to put in ma two sense. I've posted about five loglines and synopsis on WritersScriptNetwork.com. Yeah, I was paranoid the first time or two, especially after some producer downloaded the synopsis to read it, and I never heard from them. But, hey, what can you do? We write da movies dat we want peoples to see, right? In order to do dat, we gotta just bite our bullits and put em out there. Of course, PLEASE and ALWAYS check out who you are dealing with.
Ma first (an only so far) option was wid a prod co who are really small, but the guy is really trying. To look at their website, you would go running, and when dey told me dey wanted to read my script, I was scared. But I did it, and you know what, I'm glad I did. If'n they had stole my script, then OUCH! for me, but I'll jess write anudder one, jess as good.
Ok, two sense over. Tanks for the talking stick!
AGhost

[wannabe]

Dol, while you have the cutest swishing tail on the board, some things need a response:

"Too paranoid? Nah, no such thing."
Actually, there is, and it often leads to more worries and ulcers than it's worth.


"Yes, risks must be taken, but before one does so, one simply makes sure that they cover their ass (as was suggested above)... in more ways than one."
Agreed

"I don't see what the hell we care if others are or aren't "paranoid". Worry about your own stuff, and let others do the same."
I'm a professional writer (not in the US, but I make a living from writing) and it's something I've seen all over - newbies being too scared to let their babies breath. I thought Done Deal was for airing one's questions and thoughts. That's what I did. Excuse me if I was wrong.

[funnyfarmer]

Wannabe,
You brought up an interesting point and you shouldn't be apologizing. I'm one of the paranoid, and I'll tell you why. I'm in that 1% with a hugh high concept script that got an agent immediately, has yet to be rejected. And I'm paranoid to post anything else because my agent asked me to let him read everything first and he has no time to read anything. So I have no clue what needs to be fixed, if the next three are as good, if I need to stick to one genre, or if I have amazing talent or incredible luck, or an ignorant agent. :) Just kidding on the last.

I think every agent with a newbie writer wants the high concept script, and not the writer. I'm not a 20-something male, and will only have a future in specs because of the very things that aren't supposed to be important in hiring, ie. age, sex, location. I know I have one fabulous script. I have no idea how it got to be fabulous. I know no screenwriters, I live in Timbuktu, well, not quite, and the only way I'll get feedback is to pay for it, or post it. I can't do either. And because I write only high concept, so far, I can't even share what it's about. It's frustrating when all I want to do is learn how to be better. So I just read other posters, learn from others' mistakes, and hope I hear something soon. You're right, I'm one of the paranoid. This thread helped me a lot. Thanks.

[Daughter of Lir]

Wannabe, you darling you, I wasn't attacking you or anyone else. :) No worries! I'm just gonna take my own advice and worry 'bout me, and hope everyone else finds what works best for them.

slainte,

[mosnarb]

Correct me if I'm wong, sorry, bad pun, wrong (which I often am) but it only costs (relative term) 20.00 to non-WGA members to register your intellectual property. (again, relative term)

It can include scripts, treatments, synopses, outlines, and written ideas. You don't have to have a completed script to protect it. www.wga.org

Not a bad idea to register it with WGA, then feel more apt to share your ideas or thoughts on the DD board. It's valid for 5 years. It's a very easy process.

You feel pretty good when you get the certificate, show it to your buds over beer. They might even buy, thinking you're a big shot.

[ToddinHB]

"The reality in freelancing is that ideas are not copyrightable,"
laments Frank Free, the National Contract Advisor for the National
Writers Union.

This also applies to writing spec scripts.

[mosnarb]

Other quotes:


WGA west:
"Registration provides a dated record of the writer's claim to authorship of a particular literary material. If necessary, a WGA employee may produce the material as evidence if legal or official Guild action is initiated."

"Does registration take the place of copyright? No."

"Does registration help in determining writing credits? Generally no. If there is a dispute as to authorship or sequencing of material by date, then registration may be relevant."

I'm talking registration not copyrighting.

Probably only a term or series like "Starwars" could be copyrighted.

Just passing on info. Again, it's a solid 20 dollar investment.

Mos

[Bill Marquardt]

The above diatribe aside, here's my view. This board and its members are a resource. Many of us newer writers can benefit from the advice and criticism available here, but a bit of discretion is advised.

I felt comfortable putting some pages here because very little of the plot was revealed in those pages. There was no "high concept" given away. By getting reactions from my peers, I was able to improve the work beyond its first draft crudeness and I'm glad I did it.

An earlier version of the screenplay is registered, so I have some degree of protection.

I doubt most of us newer writers have much to fear, our stuff just isn't that good yet, but caution is always recommended. Choose wisely what you post in public. If you are not completely comfortable, don't do it.

[wcmartell]

If we exclude all of the crappy writers from people we're paranoid about (if a crappy writer stole your idea it still wouldn't get sold) and we focus only on good writers...

We run into a conundrum. Because good writers have good ideas already. Good writing is coming up with the thousands of good little ideas, good choices, different ways to handle scenes we've seen before, etc... and someone with the ability to come up with all of those good ideas can't shut the damned idea spigot off! They're so busy putting buckets under the spigot they don't have time to steal ideas.

Yesterday I was in a coffee shop with the old laptop. A wannabe writer recognized me and asked if I knew anyone looking for a political thriller with a great idea. He reluctantly told me his idea (it put me to sleep). While I was listening to this never-ending pitch, a woman behind me got a call on her cell phone. She told the person on the other end that she HAD called back several times, always leaving a message on the answering machine. A few times she set up meetings on the answering machine, but the person never showed. It ended up the woman had the phone number wrong and had been leaving all of these detailed personal messages on some strangers machine! She had left times & places where she would be... who knew what this stranger had done with the information?

Guess which story I stole? The one from the woman behind me. I wondered what it would be like to keep getting wrong number messages on your machine... like Lucy Fletcher's play SORRY WRONG NUMBER.

While the guy was still pitching his story I thought about SURVIVOR. What would happen if Richard Hatch decided to run for Congress... and other survivors began dying in mysterious accidents? Covering up something they discovered about Richard on the island?

Then I thought - what if you pitched a "mysterious accident" perfect murder story to a producer - and you had it all worked out so that the character could REALLY get away with murder... and two months after the producer says "Sorry, not what we're looking for" the producer's wife dies under the same "mysterious circumstances" from your pitch? Do you have a career now? Or are you next in line for a "mysterious accident"?

Eventually the guy finished his pitch... and I wrote down the other three ideas. Real life has more great ideas than any one single person.

- Bill

[AndyWarholsGhost]

Mr. Martell,
All silliness aside, what you have written I would stand behind 100%, and it echoes somthing else I read out of William Goldmans latest.
There really are soooooo many good ideas just waiting to be found, you jess gotta know where to look, and when to listen to that little voice inside that says: "Hey dumbass! Pay attention, that could be a great story!! Duh!!"

[Daughter of Lir]

And this, my friends and neighbours, is why I worship at the altar of WCM. Seriously.

[JaneaDahl]

Bill Martell...lol!

And HOW true! I'd like to add that I personally am not compelled to steal ideas, because the vast majority of them simply don't cause that "flutter" inside. That feeling of "Ooh, I'd love to write that!" And I'd say that's a huge chunk of the equation...writing stories that excite YOU.

Cheers!

Janea

P.S. Moses, can you get some fresh air today? It might do you good to go outside. :)

[ksk2]

Good going, Moses. You just exemplified the "stereotype" of the wowzer. As they're regularly well-read, yet love to re-write history for their own personal ends (often masquerading them under a thin, cracked veneer of a pseudo-moral platform). And like the best wowzers, you have made nasty little digs cloaked in in a moth-eaten travesty of humourous satire.

Better yet, as a shining icon of wowzerhood, you generalized individual opinions stated to New Writer - that you apparently took issue with yet never stated so directly - into one "firing squad". Well done. The Mullet Military will throw you a ticker-tape parade in Santa Cruz.

However:

You did choose an Irish angle to make your non-point, so I'll relish this opportunity to tell you something all Irish know: "You can't buy a pint for a ha'penny." Meaning, All I said to New Writer was that he/she would "get what they paid for". So, within the true history (versus your re-write) of the thread you referred to, I did not shoulder a rifle aimed at New Writer. I merely stated that if he/she wanted free "Pro" advice then A: there was a forum in which to post a modicum of their work for critique, and B: if they wished a "Pro" to take time from their bread-and-butter schedule to evaluate their work, with no renumeration, then they had no right to complain about any "terms".

With that, I greatly look forward to your next treatise, which shall indubitably be written in the form of a letter addressed to Sylvia Plathe, for which I'm sure you already have a deal with PBS in the works.

[wcmartell]

Right! That's the most important thing!

YOUR idea may be the greatest thing in the world, but it may not be anything that gets ME excited. And I've got to be excited about the idea to take the time to write it. Writing isn't easy and usually isn't all that fun, so I need to be passionate about whatever I'm writing.

You may have read all three of my ideas and got nothing out of them. All are thriller ideas... and the type of thriller ideas that appeal to me. SORRY WRONG ANSWERING MACHINE and PITCH ME A MURDER (just made those titles up) are kind of like STRANGERS ON A TRAIN - a regular guy gets involved in very bad things because of shared guilt. THE LAST SURVIVOR deals with 15 minutes of fame - a theme I've used in lots of scripts (I like characters who were once important and are now complete failures... I can identify with them). I "found" those ideas because I'm looking for ideas that speak to me.

Somewhere in a move I lost a bunch of John D. McDonald books, including a short story collection with an introduction about how if you gave 5 writers the same basic idea, all 5 would come up with completely different stories. Because they'd see different aspects of that idea.

You might think about the woman who left all of those messages on the wrong machine and think it would make a great romantic comedy. Out of the millions of people in the city, she finds Mr. Right by transposing a phone number. Someone else might think it's a great paranoia thriller - did you ever see the movie MIRACLE MILE where a guy picks up a ringing pay phone - wrong number - but it's a warning that missiles are headed to LA. Or what if the messages were from the aliens who walk among us? Or it was your boss who hit the wrong speed dial button and you discovered your company was in financial trouble? Every one can steal that "wrong answering machine" idea and come up with whatever script speaks to you.

- Bill (who once got the last hotel guest's voice mail message)

[AndyWarholsGhost]

This would go back to what WM said and stories, I guess.
I remember one of the finest moments for me in growing as a writer was the night I saw The Sixth Sense. I was floored by what I thought was one of the finest movies made in a hell of a long time. Directed in a pre-mtv style, well written and acted, etc...
Anyway, I went to the restroom on my way out, and I was at the urinal, (NO, this is going somewhere, I promise!), and a thought came to me:
"I want to go home and write that!"
and then, another thought answered:
"No, I want to go home and write something THAT GOOD."
It was then that I realized that I was on the right road to developing the best stories I could, in my own way, with my own voice behind them.
Sorry if this sounds conviluted.
AGhost

[ksk2]

I 'll tell you about another flutter...

WCM, I'm sure you've seen many of the great episodes of the original Twilight Zone. You remember the one about the poor old House-bound widow who kept getting mysterious, disturbing calls at night, from a moaning voice? A voice that complained about being cold and lonely? How she tried to trace the call and the police couldn't help her? Then the voice turned out to be her late husband? Then we find that a recent storm had knocked down a telephone wire that had lain across his grave? Great concept and hook, huh? Yup, so much so that I never forgot it.

And got a flutter when I was watching Sci-Fi's "Exposure" series last year. When they showed a little ditty from the 80's.

Entitled "The Call".

About young woman stuck in a house due to baby-sitting duty. During the night. Who starts getting mysterious, disturbing calls on the phone. From a moaning, pleading voice that complained of being cold, afraid, lonely, and wanting to go home. The voice of a pubescent boy. Freaks her out. The voice complains of viscious, life-threatening child-abuse, and is so pathetic and tugging on the heart-strings that she calls the cops to check it out. They can't locate the call due to an accident with the phone lines. At the climax, we get the "reveal": the accident caused a line to go down. Falling across the grave that bears the name that the boy's voice gave on the phone.

But hey, the two women differed in age, and so did the callers, so there couldn't have been any rip-off involved, right?

Right.

I hope the writer of The Call gets "calls" from Rod Serling's grave for the rest of their life.

[wcmartell]

See, I'd get rid of ther phone line thing. Why not have some guy find his dad's old ham radio in the attic? And there's sun spots, see - not the kind that makes gangs attack police stations, the kind that makes old radio signals get picked up by this old ham radio. And the guy hears moaning on the ham radio - his dead dad! And he tries to solve his dad's murder, and...

Oh, never mind.

- Bill (Hollywood LOVES Recycling!)

[jacinthee]

How about: the guy hears moaning on the ham radio - it's a complete stranger's dead dad! And then, he tries to solve the murder and, and...will he care long enough to solve it? (what a cliffhanger!) :lol

Jacinthe - head of creative recycling

[wcmartell]

More Phoney Stories:

Ever read SHATTERDAY by Harlan Ellison? They did it as the first episode of the NEW TWILIGHT ZONE back in the early 80s with Bruce (full head of hair) Willis in the lead. Guy is drunk in a bar, goes to a payphone and accidentally dials his own number...

And he answers!

- Bill

[ksk2]

And enjoyed the Twilight Zone episode. Especially the part at the beginning Where Harlan gets appropriate credit. ;)

Harlan's a real hoot in person, too. So mellow and laid back. Especially during his panel discussions. :lol

[TOPCAT 777]

I read a quote from an entertainment lawyer some time ago that the best protection is from the U.S.Copyright office. Probably best to go both Copyright AND WGA. Kind of a pain in the wallet, though...

[Jeff Schechter]

The only thing registering a script does (the only thing it needs to do) is establish that on such-and-such a date, such-and-such material existed. Don't waste the time, money and effort getting a US copyright. WGA is more than adequate, as are FirstUse and ProtectRite.

I think things have to be looked at in context. How many ideas really get ripped-off? The only things that makes the papers are the rare times it happens. The odds of getting ripped-off are so slim as to be statistically insignificant.

The question came up a few weeks ago in a seminar I gave. A woman asked me about getting ripped off. I asked her "If I gave you $3000 dollars right now for your idea...took out my checkbook and wrote the check right here...would you sell it to me?" She thought for a moment and said "Yes." I told her that if I knew that I could buy almost any idea from almost any aspiring writer for a few thousand dollars, why would I rip off that idea and expose myself to thousands, upon thousands of dollars of expense defending myself in a lawsuit?

The best defense against being ripped off is to know with whom you're dealing. Don't send anything...scripts... loglines...doodles on napkins...to anyone unless you are comfortable with who they are and what they claim to be. If you're the least little bit wary, don't submit.

A good criteria is credits. If their credits are solid and they've worked with reputable companies, then they probably won't want to jeopardize their relationships with the bad press and stink of a lawsuit. These are good places to submit stuff to.

On the other hand, if they're credits are non-existent or in lower-profile markets (adult movies, low-budget slasher, low-budget almost anything), you should be more cautious. Don't avoid them, just be more cautious.

My advice is not to spend another minute of valuable writing time worrying about getting ripped off. Write something great that will attract reputable agents and solid producers. That's all the protection you will ever need.

I hope this helps.

JEFF SCHECHTER
www.totallywrite.com

P.S. Check "Let's Do Dinner!" in the Services & Opportunities forum.

[RatWriter]

TopCat,

Jeff is right. By the way your're not receiving a copyright. Your work, by definition, is copyrighted the moment you right it. You're registering your copyrighted material at the U.S. Copyright office. It's a legal datestamp of your work for lawsuit purposes, as is the WGA and other services mentioned by Jeff.

Agents, managers, and production companies require that datestamp for their protection, should they entertain purchasing it. Using one will satisfy them.

Rat

[Strange Mind]

i register with the national creative registrar. their website has an electronic registration system where you upload the file for electronic date and time stamping as well.

htttp://www.ncronline.com

final draft 5 users will find this service directly available under your "register this script" function in your file menu.

[jacinthee]

Well put, Jeff.

****

On a purely speculative tangent, I started toying with the following concept. I agree with being extra careful about what one posts on an electronic board. But since we're talking about (electronic) date and time stamping, paradoxically, wouldn't posting something on a board be a proof of the existence of specific material at a given time?

I'm far from suggesting we should start using DD as a "copyright" instead of, say, the WGA, put I'm just wondering if such reasoning would have any judicial merit (or could in the future).

Jacinthe

[Jeff Schechter]

jacinthee writes...

"But since we're talking about (electronic) date and time stamping, paradoxically, wouldn't posting something on a board be a proof of the existence of specific material at a given time?"

Yes and no. It creates a "paper-trail" but probably wouldn't hold up too well in court. Places like NCR, FirstUse, et al are recognized for their ability to timestamp material in a legally unquestioned manner.

Regards,

JEFF SCHECHTER
www.totallywrite.com

[Tony Robenalt]

Jacinthe,

To add to what Jeff wrote, you also have to take into account the fact that threads are automatically deleted from the board when a forum becomes full, and thus the "period of proof" might be considerably shorter than an actual WGA registration, and especially an official US Copyright registration, which lasts a lifetime. Of course, you could always have Will save your posts somehow, or he could save everything from the Loglines and Script Pages forum into a non-postable archive forum of some sort. Something along those lines. But it still might not hold up in court.


Tony

[jacinthee]

Thanks for your reply Jeff and Tony.

Actually, I was throwing the idea much more as an ideological statement than a practical one. :) With digital technologies gaining in importance and all, we constantly have to redefine the way business is done and what was once invalid, may suddenly gain credibility. Just musing.

Jacinthe

[Meltdown]

Jeff, the use of electrnic means i.e. e-mail for copyright also depends on ones job to a degree. In my case being a professional engineeer - any document that I sent from my work account is automatically copyrightted and will hold up in a court of law.

The flipside, is that many a lawsuit has stemmed from a engineer sending incorrect information over e-mail to a client etc. Most people think - oh that's just an internal e-mail - no one sees that. Not so - one of my bosses just got a call about an internal e-mail he responded ( some detail about a process system decision) five years ago. Each e-mail is being used in court case by a digruntled client. Real eye opener. These lawyers sifted though almost 4000 e-mail documents.

I'm not entirely sure how it might apply universally, but I know that the laws for electronic e-mail are seeing new legislation around copyright, legal accountability etc.

For me - I register with the WGAE first, then make sure to send a few e-mail copies of the script to my "reader" - one of which is my agent/editor. She replies back with note confirming that she received the notice of copyright.

Someone does steal my "idea" (though as I said to St Rouge - can't really re-invent the wheel, but you can put sparkling new hubcaps on it) I'm well covered.

[DWB1125]

WGA registration is not worth the $20 dollars it costs. You should not be worried about datestamping your material unless you wrote it yesterday and are sending it all over town today.

Registering with the U.S. Copyright Office is the ONLY way to protect your copyright. Period. The WGA is only for establishing a date of creation.

In my experience, no one cares whether the script is registered with the WGA. What they do care about is copyright. And while your copyright automatically attaches to your work the minute you put it down on paper, your rights are not 100% secure until you register it.

I'm not trying to get personal on Jeff Schecter, but to advocate that WGA registration is all that you need is wrong. Ask any attorney who knows anything about intellectual property.

[Cornell]

DWB...I agree with your remark about attorney advice. I've had several attorney friends, including my own Entertainment Lawyer, who have all been adamant in registering material with the U.S. Copyright Office as opposed to the WGA.

[Jeff Schechter]

US Copyright vs WGA vs Protectrite...

I'm always willing to believe an attorney's advice over anecdotal information, even my own. I just honestly don't know any working writer who registers material with the US Copyright office (not work-fo-hire scripts, but specs). Usually it's just WGA. Often it's nothing. If you've got an agent or a manager and they keep the notes they're supposed to, you have a pretty good paper trail of submissions.

Again, the odds of getting ripped off are slim. If you've got a script or a concept so great or intriguing and it could be gotten from you for a song, why rip you off?

I certainly could be out to lunch on this...all I know is what's common practice in my limited circle.

JEFF SCHECHTER
www.totallywrite.com

[ksk2]

"Again, the odds of getting ripped off are slim. If you've got a script or a concept so great or intriguing and it could be gotten from you for a song, why rip you off?"

Depends on the country or countries involvesd, Jeff.

The Call (as I listed above) came from Croc Dundee Land. I'm sure that the Writer/Director assumed that since they were in a small pool with small fish, no-one would ever notice.

@#%$ THEM.

And I still hope that the owners of the rights to the original T Zone version hears of it and sues them into 3 generations of the Poor House. PERIOD.

And the "chances" are "slim" re the people/positions YOU are talking about, yes; not writers that SUBMIT material to the people you're talking about.

Writers who rip are different to people who can write a check-for-the-idea metaphor that you offered, Jeff.

Regarding this subject, it's the same as with writing: CONTEXT is EVERYTHING.

[Jeff Schechter]

Dear ksk2:

You wrote:

"And the 'chances' are 'slim' re the people/positions YOU are talking about, yes; not writers that SUBMIT material to the people you're talking about.

Writers who rip are different to people who can write a check-for-the-idea metaphor that you offered, Jeff."

Gotta be honest...I couldn't really follow your post. It had a sort of "All Your Rip-off Are Belong To Us" feel ;)

I think the point that you were making had to do with knowing to whom you're submitting. If that was the point, I totally agree.

I still believe that the best protection available is to write something great and spend your time and energies submitting it to agents and managers for representation, not producers. More claims of "I got ripped off" probably come from writers who submitted to producers who accept unsolicited scripts than from writers whose scripts went through an agent or manager's office.

If in doubt, don't submit remains the best advice.

JEFF SCHECHTER
www.totallywrite.com