Women's views

[Bill Marquardt]

I am asking a serious question here, from a screenwriter's perspective. I have witnessed the women's movement progress for the last four decades, from burning pointy brassieres in the sixties to trouncing Judge Bork in his bid for the Supreme Court in the 90's. But - what I see going on nowadays in comedy movies is the antithesis to everything near and dear to a true feminist's heart. In spite of this, the young women I see in the theatres are howling in sheer delight at the "male adolescent fantasies" portrayed on the screen, e.g. "American Pie", "Road Trip", etc.

Q: In the comedy genre, is it okay to portray all women as mindless, eager sexual targets? Is this no longer offensive to you? Is it a "generation" thing?

Bill confused M.

[lilybet]

Bill,

Not in my book but I'm not in the American Pie generation.

What were you doing at the local movie palace watching American Pie anyway? And Scary Movie?

Are you sure you're as old as you say? Oh, market research, OK, I get it.

lilybet

[Bill Marquardt]

Lilybet,

Seriously, I am confused by what's going on nowadays. I thought women wanted to go beyond the sex toy thing, but every comedy movie that comes out seems to portray women as eager "victims", and the young women who watch the films seem to enjoy it. I really do go to the theatres to watch the films and this is my observation. And yes, I am "over thirty".

Bill M.

[RatWriter]

Bill,

Take a look at the real world to see what's accepted by women.
Did you see women unite against Pres. Clinton?

Rat

[Bill Marquardt]

Rat Guy,

In my original response to Lilybet I referred to Clinton, but I accidentally erased it. But think about it, the NOW challenges judges Bork and Thomas for the Supreme Court because of their so-called anti-female attitudes (contrived or not) and yet accept any and all transgressions by the prez, including charges of rape. Then I watch comedy movies that perpetuate the "willing sex object" view of women, and I observe acceptance by the girls/women that watch these movies. Are movies a reflection of our attitudes/mores as Hollywood claims, or do they influence them? I do not wish to make political statements, as I am neither Republican nor Democrat. It just seems to me that the so-called Women's Movement has been set back by eight years. That's the Clinton Legacy. Maybe it has nothing to do with Clinton, but what is it then?

Bill M.

[ksk2]

And I have been storyboarding (nice deduction!)

Of course it leads to many others. Like a potential-opposite: If there was a "high-brow" comedy starring J. Garofalo and Margaret Cho that went for the nads of male stereotypes, would women support that film? I'd wait in line for over an hour to see it. Then again I hated American Pie (and films of that genre).

[lilybet]

Rat - Maybe some of us were more concerned about Starr and his ilk than Clinton's tawdry peccadillos. Some of the other things he's done for women were more important such as appointing so many women to power positions.

Bill - I can't even pretend to answer your question, I don't know. I don't go to those kind of movies.

Some maybe factors:

What are their viewing options?

Young girls will do a lot of silly things to please boys. In fact, so do women.

What are their viewing options?

I think there is a backlash against women's progress in some ways.

Where are the film heroines for role models?

What are their viewing options?

The dismissive label "chick flick."

Maybe they don't want to bloody their heads knocking them against the wall like their older sisters.

What are their viewing options?

No drive-ins so they can make out during dumb movies instead of watching them.

lilybet

[steeves]

you ask: In the comedy genre, is it okay to portray all women as mindless, eager sexual targets? Is this no
longer offensive to you? Is it a "generation" thing?

women are people - any steroptypes, be it man. woman, black, whatever, will offend some... if it is clearly comedy less so, but i ask "is it necessary?"

sure, have a ditzy dumb blonde, or a penn/spicolo character, or a pyschotic libber or a klan-wannabee who washes his sheets with a red t-shirt and shows up at the crossburning dressed in pink - fun can be fun - but do not make all the characters that way. show the other side, maybe add a foil for each major boob in the story

but expect to offend.. is it ok to portray them all like that? i say no.
is it no longer offensive? i say yes. to some at least.

my suggestion for a great comedy? trash the amish. big time. make fun of them 'til their cows come home. because they can't see it, or read about it they can't complain. the amish are likely the only safe audience for comedic exploitation that exists in modern america.

and remember, dumb&dumber offended any male... and anyone with intelligence and yet made a bundle

[Bill Marquardt]

Lilybet,

Thanks for responding. In all truthfulness, if I were not trying to become a screenwriter, I would not be watching those movies either. Not because I am a prude. Not because I believe in censorship. Simply because I am not entertained by them. Apparently, you and I are in the minority.

Bill

[Bill Marquardt]

Steeves,

I cannot disagree with you. If the Wayans or the Farleys came to me and said, "Bill, write us a stupid teenage everybody likes to f*, there are no consequences to your actions screenplay, and we'll pay you $250,000", I would take the money and write the movie. I guess that makes me a hypocrite. I just don't understand.

Bill

[callit]

Bill,
I understand your confusion on the women's issue. I had the same problem not so long ago. It's never OK to treat women (be they real or be they characters) in the manner we've seen in those juvenile movies you describe. You're right: Those movies are there just to make money & attract adolescent males to theaters.

As GIG suggested to me back when: "Just write people".

Two points I'd make now:
1) Why cloud your mind with this issue if you are not writing that type of screenplay? Sure it's a valid issue and one that needs attention, but you shouldn't let it stop your screenwriting.

2) Write a female character as you envision her, based on the women you know/admire/loathe.

We have the advantage of age. We write & view from points of respect. Adolescents who think mostly of sex will tend to think that way towards women/girls. They'll grow out of it.

[Steve]

Teen movies are fantasies and that's why women are portrayed that way. Nerdy screenwriters act out their fantasies of getting the hottest girl in the school. Boys like that stuff.

Note that American Pie also threw in a gorgeous, stupid guy character too. But then he ended up being honest, loyal and nice so there's a fantasy or the female viewers.

I think most of the teenagers that see these movies are smart enough to realize that they are fantasies and that's why they aren't offended. It's us older folk who get ticked off by it.

[steeves]

not-too-smart jock (stereotype male)
conniving intellignet overachiever (female)
and the smart one, the gay sister

female stereotypes... not really
and written by a man

a good example, perhaps?

do like gig says (and i think i did too): write women as people, 'cuz they are.

look at your work: could your protag/antagonist change gender and still work (other than say, breasts or a penis?)

if so chances are you have a rounded character.

push the envelope: make your female a stereotype, but a male stereotype. (think ripley in alien??)

[Nemesis Unbound]

Its all very simple guys ;) The women's movement taking a step back hasn't been in the last 8 years, it actually happened further back than that and we are just starting to see some of the results. First I'll deal with President Clinton and why he has nothing to do with this. Regarding the charges that have been made against him the only thing that we KNOW happened was the Lewinsky affair. It is unfair to speculate on any of the other things unless anything is proven, he is innocent until proven guilty. Don't forget it is not unusual when a public figure gets into some sort of trouble for all sorts of people come out of the woodworks with claims, often dubious, of prior misconduct. As for the Lewinsky affair, well thats none of our business really and is between Mr. and Mrs. Clinton. The fact of the matter is the man screwed up and betrayed his wife's trust and his marriage, a mistake for which he is lucky to have her forgivence. It doesn't mean that adultery is suddenly acceptable, perhaps it is a recognition that a strong relationship CAN survive a colossal and selfish mistake on the part of one partner? I would like to think that this is a signal not that women (or men) are suddenly willing to acquiesce to infidelity on their partners behalf, instead maybe it is the beginning of a recognition in an age of high divorce rates that love is not something to be tossed aside in a moment of anger or pain but sometimes requires alot of work and a willingness to forgive.

Now as for the decline of the Women's movement, here's what the problem is. The fact of the matter is, for all our differences, for everything about each other that infuriates us, men and women like each other and want to be together (well except gay men and women :lol ). Unfortunately what happened was the women's rights movement got hijacked by the "right-wing too ugly to find a guy therefore frustrated non-sexual man-hating feminists" whose extreme message was what people came to associate with "feminism" Now this is not particularly attractive to guys, and since girls still like guys (for all our flaws) they don't want to be associated with a movement which will make them less attractive to potential mates and which not so incidently has lost touch with the issues that are really important to them in carrying out the "Anti-Male" agenda it has rabidly devoted itself to. Sadly to be a "feminist" has taken on negative connotations for many young women and hence an increased willingness to behave in a stereotypical manner in order to distance themselves from those "crazy feminists"! :eek

Does that help? :)

[lilybet]

I repeat, will you marry me?

lilybet

[GirlinGray]

Um, American Pie was a movie in which guys made complete asses of themselves, trying to get laid. Perhaps you missed what the girls in the audience were laughing about?

I did not see that movie making fun of or objectifying women. I saw it making fun of young men. And a good deal of the time, when no one was, um, having intercourse with an apple pie, the women were the sexual aggressors. They weren't victimized. They were in control. If they hadn't been, these guys would not have been having such a (um, I was going to say hard, but perhaps I will say "difficult") difficult time pursuing sex.

Mileage may vary.

[jetty]

That was quite an essay Nemesis. And I like your theories.

Wish I had something to add to this thread. It's all rather befuddling to me. Not even too sure what you're all talking about. It's just me, I know that. Bill... if you'd be willing to break it down real nice and slow, (like in baby steps) maybe I can add something.

If GirlinGray would open up more... I mean carry on.... I'm sure she could clear up all the confusion. I mean that. Girlin.... What vitamins do you take? Can I borrow some? (though I'm thinking it's more of an IQ thing) (wink)

jetty

[Bill Marquardt]

I agree that the "teen sex" movies in general show the male adolescents as brainless idiots. But they also usually portray the women (girls) as eager, easy targets, and sometimes as welcoming multiple "partners". And my post is also about the movie goers, not just the movies. Seems like young ladies of today are just as raunchy as their boyfriends.

Nemisis - I am not "blaming" Clinton for any of this, per se. But seeing the leaders of the women's movement attack Clarence Thomas for such things as talking about a hair on his Coca Cola can, but then delivering forth excuse after excuse for everything Clinton did or allegedly did (much like your post), makes me realize just how hypocritical they are. Now before anyone attacks me, I do not care in the least about politics, and I don't care if you like or dislike the Prez. Nor am I telling you that Clarence Thomas is a great Justice. It just seems to me that the women's movement has damaged itself irreparably by the stance they take on all these things going on.

So what does any of this have to do with screenwriting? I still want to know why women accept this crap in the movies. Lilybet, like you I would not normally watch such silly shows as we mentioned. I have been watching them lately because they are successful at the Box Office, and I really do want to get a handle on what sells. I've probably had my fill of stupid movies and I doubt I'll go to any more.

This will be my last comment on this topic, because it wasn't meant to be political, and I do not enjoy arguing politics any more than I do religion.

Bill M.

[spidey12]

Gang,
Maybe it's just me, but I think we all might be analyzing this a little too much. The state of the world has very little bearing on what's funny. Should women laugh at a movie that objectifies them? If it's funny, why not? I'm half Sicilian, and I laugh my arse off at a stereotypical mafia-like character as long as he (or she) is written well. Movies are a medium for escapism. What you can't laugh at in real life may very well be damn hysterical on the screen. If "Pulp Fiction" were a true story I would be horrified. On the screen I couldn't keep myself from laughing. You can't help what you find humorous.
By the way, Nem...I agree with just about everything you said. The worst thing that could have happened to the feminist/equal rights movement is the recent leadership of women's groups, most notoriously N.O.W.
On a personal note, my fiancee wants to see "Coyote Ugly" and, dammit, I love her enough to go with her. It has nothing to do with the abundant female pulchritude. Now tell me I'm not enlightened. ;)

I still have my pointy brassieres.

[Steve]

I don't really want to argue politics either, but I can't let some of this stuff go by unchallenged:

"But seeing the leaders of the women's movement attack Clarence Thomas for such things as talking about a hair on his Coca Cola can, but then delivering forth excuse after excuse for everything Clinton did or allegedly did (much like your post), makes me realize just how hypocritical they are."

1) It was not just "the leaders of the women's movement" who objected to Clarence Thomas.
2) He didn't talk about a "hair" he talked about a PUBIC hair on his coke can and it was part of a pattern of unwelcome sexual advances against a co-worker. Suppose you had a male boss who talked that way to you and made it clear he was sexually interested in you. Would that be okay with you? Would you be okay with being labelled a "reactionary heterosexual extremist" if you objected.
3) I hate Clinton but what he did with Lewinsky was consensual sex between adults which is a world apart from the treatment Thomas subjected Anita Hill too.

4) That people believe the women's movement is run by "women too ugly to get a man who therefore hate men" is an example of the most viscious sort of spin put forth by the right wing. That it has actually worked on intelligent people, especially young women, only shows us how far the women's movement still has to go, not that it's gone too far.

Okay, back to screenwriting.

[Couchguy]

I rented "American Pie" and watched it three times, because I care about filmmaking THAT much.

Let's take a look at the female characters. One is a virgin who remains a virgin. One decides to get laid on prom night to her long-time boyfriend. One is a soft-spoken band girl who turns dominatrix in the sack. One is a foreign exchange student who demands that a guy strip for her--and he does. One is an older woman who sees and takes the opportunity to get laid. And one, whose reputation was tarnished, took the opportunity to correct that situation in front of everyone at the prom, while the guy literally (and when I say literally, I mean it in the actual literal sense, not in the Ricki Lake "Ricki, I literally died. I literally chopped my own head off" sense) pissed himself.

All of these women/girls were in control. Sure, the guys wanted to get laid, but what 17 year old guy doesn't? Despite the best maneuvering on the guys' parts, it still came down to "it's the girl who calls the shot", and isn't that what the feminist movement wanted?

But I still think that one chick's rack was store bought. You know who I mean.

Your pal,
Couchguy

[Bill Marquardt]

I only hope that "MILF" does not become a part of our culture/idiom. I saw nothing complimentary in the attitudes of the males towards females in that film. I saw very little of "woman in control". Sorry. My opinion.

BM no W

[Zeeman13]

Bill, I think you're a nice guy, but what your post comes down to, IMO, is that you're pretty conservative sexually. People liked American Pie because it was about being HORNY, BABY. YEAH. Sorry. Mixing puberty and sex is like mixing ammonium nitrate and fuel oil. And what the hell is wrong with sex? I'm serious. So who cares if there's a movie entirely about it? Sex is a good thing.

And who was a target in that movie? I have to agree with Couchdude on that one: when the Band Camp girl straddles the main character, slaps his face, and asks, "What's my name, bitch?," I think it's safe to say she's not a target or a victim. She is a woman in control.

Nemesis, if you think that Hillary forgave Bill because of an everlasting love, I have a screenplay I'd like to sell you for mid-six against seven. That marriage is obviously a political merger. Come on, man. If not, what self-respecting woman wouldn't dump a guy like that?

Couchguy, yes, definitely synthetic flotation devices in that girl.

[yoney]

it didn't recently start. It's been going on for a while. Teen sex movies sell teen tickets. It really has nothing to do with age or gender. I'm 31. I rented American Pie and watched with my girlfriend. We both laughed at some parts and said 'ugh' at others.

Look at movies from the 80's(Fast Times at Richmont High, the Porky's movies). While not high art, they made money and had their impact on a generation of young teen movie go'ers

American Pie is to the the 90's what Porky's was to the 80's, what the Beach Blanket movies were to the 60's (albeit the movies today are way more risque)

I hate go off topic here but as a screenwriter with aspirations of being a director did anybody else notice during the whole sitting on the bed exchange the cup with the "beer" sequence the color of the cup changed from clear to blue for about 3-4 seconds. minus 1 for the continuity people.

My girlfriend hates when I point out things like that in movies.

thanx for listenin'
yoney

[spidey12]

Sorry, Bill, I have to disagree with you concerning the male attitudes towards women in "American Pie." Remember the big kid, the jock, who just wanted to bang the choir girl? He falls in love, and come prom night, scores. The next day what does he do? Smiles and says nothing happened. I don't know about you, but the # of guys in my high school who would have done that was close to nil. But we're all about differing opinions here. God bless America.

As far as the, uh, endowments on the girl, she says they're real. *snicker*

[Paula413]

First, I didn't see AP.

Since I didn't see AP I asked one of my teenage sons (who watched it when his 23 year old sister loaned it to him), about the movie. He said all he remembered thinking was how the guy could do it without the pie plate rim getting in the way (this is an honor student in the 99th percentile on several national tests and all he remembers is the plate rim?). Needless to say, there will never be any pies in my house.

Back to the question: I like to try to keep my movie viewing and my reality separate (must be why I don't watch the news). I regard myself as a person very concerned about everybody's rights but I am concerned that if we censor films for PC content we will be the losers. If I believed that every movie influenced everyone who watched it, I would have to be out there protesting the action, shoot 'em up movies and thrillers I love so much.

While I'm at it, what really bothers me in a film is when someone hears a noise in a dark, empty house and they go off to the darker, emptier basement in their underwear pathetically calling out "who's there?"

[Steve]

"While I'm at it, what really bothers me in a film is when someone hears a noise in dark, empty house and they go off to the darker, emptier basement in their underwear pathetically calling out "who's there?" "

And then when they realize there's a psycho killer in the basement, then slam the door, run into the hallway where the front door of the house is directly in front of them and decide the smartest thing to do is run upstairs to the attic.

[ksk2]

Since I don't know a single woman who hears a strange, potentially threatening noise in the dark and stupidly wanders out to face a possibly lethal situation. Know a lot of guys who would, though.

[Nemesis Unbound]

Bill,
I wasn't responding just to you when I was talking about Clinton, just addressing the issue within the thread, so please don't think I was trying to "butt heads" with you over politics. As for the res I think Couchguy already said the same thing I would say as to the difference between Clinton and Thomas. It comes down to the credibility of the alleged victims in the cases. Alot of people believed Anita Hill, almost no one who didn't have a political agenda believed Paula Jones. As much as the Republican's whined and ranted and threw temper tantrums they couldn't make a square block fit in a round hole, and they couldn't bring down President Clinton.

Zeeman you misread my post if you think that I believe Hillary forgave Bill out of everlasting love. I don't know them well enough to speculate on whether their marriage is real or simply a political merger. What I was saying is that the reason Clinton's popularity has not been hurt by his infidelity is that perhaps the public is beginning to appreciate the difficulty inherent in relationships and the fact that they can survive this sort of incident.

Steve my comment about the "Man-Hating Feminists" was exagerrated for humorous effect but the fact remains that the movement did get caught up in a sort of anti-male hysteria that shifted the focus from issues women cared about to laying blame on men for being oppressors. So while its true that the women's rights movement still has some ways to go, the have to get back on track first.

[Bill Marquardt]

Steve,

That very scene is lampooned in "Scary Movie". The girl runs outside and is confronted by two signs pointing in opposite directions. One reads, "Certain Death", and the other reads, "Safety". Guess which way she runs. (Then she gets stabbed in the breast and her silicone implant comes out. Ha Ha)

And to all you folks who want to analyze my psyche or judge my moral and political values, I realize I asked for it by bringing up the topic, so I have no right to complain. Just understand you might be wrong! Reflecting upon what some of you have pointed out to me, perhaps my judgement of the film is not so much based on the actions of the females, but more on the attitudes of the males toward the females. HOWEVER, either way, I don't find films of this ilk complimentary towards women. If I were a woman (and keep your Freudian comments to yourself), I would be offended by these movies. I certainly don't believe they further the feminine cause.

Slightly off topic here, but on a similar vein - remember in "A Fish Called Wanda" when Jamie Lee Curtis says, "Even if you really were my brother, I would still **** you"? Now guys, I am not against bad language per se. Most of us use it at times. But what was the purpose in this film for that one line? It did not further the plot or develop the characters. So why include it? I lost respect for Jamie Lee when I heard it. But it was a damn good movie.

BTW, my 20 yr old son bought the Am Pie DVD and it is in my home. I am not an extreme religious "right winger" who wants to censor everything. But I doubt I'll ever watch the movie again.

Bill the grouch M. :)

[Zeeman13]

Nem, I didn't misread your post. That's the way it reads: "love is not something to be tossed aside in a moment of anger or pain but sometimes requires alot of work and a willingness to forgive." You were talking about Hillary forgiving Bill, weren't you? If not, nevermind.

Bill Marq., I'm honestly curious as to why a comedy should advance the feminist cause?

[ksk2]

After her stand-up bits (kidding, kidding...) :)

[Couchguy]

Just had to jump back in here in defense of history.

Immediately after the Clarence Thomas hearings, which were carried live, and watched by millions, various polls were taken asking "who do you believe?" The American public, fresh off viewing the testimony of both Thomas and Hill, responded in nearly every poll in Clarence Thomas' favor, by about a 3:1 margin.

Now...if you took that poll today, after 10 years of "I Believe Anita" rhetoric and snide remarks about pubic hairs on Coke cans in practically every sitcom...it's no surprise that Justice Thomas wouldn't fare as well.

As for Clinton, well, he never slept with Gennifer Flowers, or Miss Arkansas, didn't really know Monica Lewinsky that well, certainly was never alone with Monica, of course he never had sexual relations with Monica...depending on what the definition of is is.

Your pal,
Couchguy

And somehow those Whitewater documents showed up in the private residence of the White House with Hillary's fingerprints all over them...by magic. What a subpoena couldn't produce, magic did. Yeah, that's it. It wasn't obstruction of justice, it was sorcery!

[Nemesis Unbound]

No Zeeman I meant that the example of Bill and Hillary (even if in reality their marriage is a sham) staying together and Bill remaining popular may represent a shift in the public opinion that perhaps love is worth the difficulty of staying together following infidelity on the part of one partner whereas in recent times it was seen as grounds for immediate divorce by many.

[Bill Marquardt]

I guess this Bill/Hillary/Monica/etc. thing is going to be the subject or inspiration for many jokes, stories, books, films for years to come.

I've always said that Clinton had a good administration going until Monica blew it for him.

Okay everyone, I am back down to Earth. Comedies are just comedies, not to be taken seriously for any reason. But, at the next teen "first timer" movie you go to, that empty seat next to yours is me not being there.

'Nuff said. Let's move on to something else. And Nem, like I said elswhere I like to read your point of view, and I never take anything personally, so keep it coming.

Bill