Why We Became Humans

[CRASH]

Here's a little something in relation to recent discussions on universal themes in movies and why they have an effect on mass audiences. The following is an excerpt from a short story by Harlan Ellison entitled, KILLING BERNSTEIN:

"Take the film they made of 'Jaws.' That is a terrifying film. It collapses entire audiences, and not merely because of the cinematic tricks. People in the middle of Kansas, people who've never seen an ocean or a shark, go into cardiac arrest. Why should that be? There are terrors much closer to us, muggers on the streets, a positive biospy report, being smashed to pudding in a freeway accident, terrors that can reach us; why should we be so petrified by that shark? I reject abstractions: the vagina dentatus, that paranoid hobgoblin of Freudian shadow-myth; the simplicity of our recoiling from something filled with teeth, an eating machine. I have another theory. The shark is one of the few life forms that has come down to the present virtually unchanged from the Devonian. So few: the c0ckroach, the horseshoe crab, the nautilus. The shark. When we were still aquatic creatures...there was the shark. And even today, in the blood that boils through us, the blood whose constituency is the same as sea water, in the blood and somewhere deep in our racial memory, there is still the remembrance of the shark. Of swimming away from that inexorable eating machine, of crawling up onto the land to be safe from it, of vowing never to return to the warm seas where the teeth can reach us. When we see the shark, we understand that THAT is one of the dreadful furies that drove us to become human beings."

[BADOWION]

An excerpt from the world's all-time best seller:

"...And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

That is why we became humans.

[CRASH]

You've completely missed the point of the thread.

[Couchguy]

If the point is that we'll never be half the writer that Harlan Ellison is...I already knew that.

Your pal,
Couchguy

[Hangfire 2]

An excerpt from a famous book (but not famous on this planet):

"... and Ihdgfgy saw that it was good, and so She produced from that test tube yeah yet another beast of nothing and spat upon it as se had the others and from it became the yeast of blood and bone and flesh and She laid it on the planet that had been barren and was now blue and when Ihdgfgy saw that the beast had taken root and had set about in wild copulation, She saw that it was good. Ihdgfgy released he orbital brake and verily She did engage the dimensional drive and let be what She had brought about. And with a mighty cry called out to that which she had created "Where are we going? Planet10! When are we going? Real soon!"

That's why we're human. Sort of.

[Steve]

Before we get into another debate about religion, I think you've brought up a very worthwhile point, Crash. Which is, what are the universal fears or desires that we as writers can tap into?

[Hangfire 2]

People always talk about the dark. I think it's not so much the dark that scares, but what might be in that darkness. The darkness is warm, it's the things that don't belong there that scare us.

And spiders. Yuck.

[Hangfire 2]

Sorry, folks. Feeling a little goofy this morning. I retract any offensive bits and further stick out any bits that did not offend.

[Tony R]

Fear of ourselves, I believe, is the most powerful fear there is. The fear that deep down, if left to our own devices, without a "rules of conduct/societal order" club held over our heads, either by us or by someone else, we are nothing but animals, nothing but brutal, murderous instinct. If you can get the audience to react in a way that frightens them, where their very thoughts about what they're seeing/experiencing shock them (more than the experience itself)...well, that's at least one way to do it...

[akaRichie]

Back from the north (too soon, job canceled)...

I read somewhere that when they filmed the Exorcist they put in the sound of bees in some of the scary scenes. Whoever wrote the article said that humans are instinctivly afraid of the sound of a bee over all other sounds.

I think humans have two areas of universal fears: instinct to survive (fight or flight reaction) uncertainty that you'll live. The other, fear of the unknown, again, uncertainty.

The main source that causes all stress is uncertainty. If you think of all situations which has caused you stress, large or small, the root is uncertainty.
'Is the killer behind the door?' 'Is the shark below me?'
'Is that nice axe wielding neighbor, I've known for years, going to snap into reality and untie me?'

As for desire, well my theory is a Freudian one, for men it's sex being the root. Meaning all surface goals and desires can be traced to our unconsious instinct to populate the earth.

For women (treading a line here) it's stability.

I'll leave it at that (taking my psycological hat off)

[Daughter of Lir]

I LIKE the Ellison bit! But yeah, why ARE we intrinsically afraid of things like spiders? Not everyone, o' course, but a BIG portion o' the population. Logically, I know that they can't really hurt me. Yes, they can bite me, yes, I one or two (where *I* live anyway) are poisonous. But they aren't gonna come chase me down, they aren't big enough to drag me away -- so why this fear? This fear that has been present from my earliest memories? (on the other hand, I have absolutely NO fear of snakes, in fact I love the little critters, and I know lots of folks are freaked by snakes)... I've been dying to have someone give me a logical answer on this for as long as I can remember...

And NO quips about how the Funnel-Web *will* chase me down and carry me off, Kosk... Australian critters are just, well, yeah...

[Baby Niblet]

While I agree that humans fear the unknown (why the original Haunting is scarier than the FX heavy remake), I think that fear of spiders, snakes and clowns for that matter have to do with a fear of what is different from us. It's that fear that feeds anti-semitism, mysogonism (sp?) and the like.

On a different note, isn't "Dianetics" the number one best seller? ;)

[Zeeman13]

I'm with Hangfire on this one. It's fear of the unknown that drives us.

Although Ellison's short on the sharks is very cool, I guess if you're a creationist, your deepest fears stem from snakes, fruit, women who are made from your rib and get you into deep sh!t, and guys talking loud on intercoms at the grocery store (because it sounds like God yelling at you).

[Hangfire 2]

I know what you mean. Those guys terified me for years until I started to wonder why God cared so much about the spillage in aisle 3. Now I'm not afraid of them. I feel so free.

[Daughter of Lir]

<laughing my ass off at Zeeman's post> No wonder I'm not afraid of snakes or fruit.... ;)

As for guys on intercoms... "KENT? KENT, THIS IS GOD SPEAKING...AND YOU'VE BEEN A VERY NAUGHTY BOY.."

[Rabid Runner]

I think we're afraid of spiders because we've been trained since antiquity to be afraid of them. Children who are not taught to fear certain animals simply don't. It probably all got started when early humans were sitting around the cave and one of them got bit by a tiny spider. Then that person just dropped dead a few hours later. Can you imagine how freaky that must have been for everyone? A little bitty creature killing a huge human being? That would be tantamount to a human killing a dinosaur all by him/herself. No wonder they were terrified. They probably went around killing every spider they saw.

And THAT is what i think makes us human. The inexplicable ability to take a single incident and transform it into a terrible threat to humanity all in one fell (and idiotic) swoop. :)

[Tony R]

Yes, the sound of bees is present in many of the scenes in The Exorcist, and probably more so in this "new" version with a digitally remastered soundtrack and added noises/music. One of the most noticeable examples in the film is at the end of the Iraq sequence when Merrin (Von Sydow) stands facing the statue of Pazuzu...the buzzing underscores the music, the sound of wind, the dogs barking, etc...if you don't like that particular sound (which I don't) it makes the tiny hairs on the back of your neck rise...masterful!

I also have frequent dreams about angry bees chasing me around the house...the buzzing haunts me even in my sleep.

Good one, akaRichie!

[TinaRM]

I have been trying really hard to push my fear of snakes onto my boys, but so far it hasn't worked (baaaaaad Mom!). We live on the water and because I've always been scared of them going near it when I'm not looking, I would tell them, "Don't go near the water. There are snakes down there!" (Which there ARE!)

Instead they come running in - "Hey Mom! Look! It's a big black snake! Coool, huh?"

Yeah it's cool all right!

My brother had a 7' red tail boa and I thought I would faint when I saw my boys walking around carrying that ugly creature.

I heard a gun shot outside not too long ago. I went out to find my husband had just shot a snake. He ALWAYS just takes them back down to the water so I was surprised. "He p|ssed me off and tried to bite me!" was his explanation for offing the snake.

Ok - for my spider story, my husband stuck his head in the door of the well house and was greeted by what he called the king of all spiders. He said that it's leg span was bigger than the tarantulas at the Science Museum. He slowly backed out and refuses to go back in there. He said that it's now the Spider's home and he will not go back without a large can of raid.

[Zeeman13]

You can't fool me, DoL. That's REAL GENIUS!! Good one.

[ksk2]

Survival instinct and fear of the unkown? I reckon they walk hand in hand. Fight or Flight/Reptilian Core Brain demands that we learn about our surroundings and adapt to/master them, in order to protect ourselves. In other words, we learn the sytem to beat the system and live.

Ghosts/supernatural phenomena are outside of the system. They obey no rules. They make them as they go along. There is no way to compensate by learning. The rug is always pulled out from under your feet. The playing field is never level or fair.

Which is the same as the shark. Until too late, it is silent and invisible. Like a ghost, you can "feel" its presence and its casual interest in ripping you in half, but you have no recourse while you're still in the water. You can only get out of the water. LIke haunted houses; all you can do is leave.

Humans fear chaos.

[moozer]

I once heard fear described like this - (in an effort not to fray the thread, I will be using the "Jaws" analogy).

If you surf off the coast of California, you would have a logical fear of having one of your appendages become "partially denuted" (classic line) thanks to a "porker".

If you're taking a bath in Tulsa, and you're afraid that a dorsal fin is going to break the surface of your bathwater, then you have what is called, illogical fear - better known as a phobia.

Logical fears generally induce rational reactions. Illogical fears generally induce irrational reactions (paranoia), such as the bather in Tulsa posting a shark spotter every time they bath.

It's the illogical fears that I think make great subjects. Most of us understand logical fears, so we're not easily manipulated when someone tries to exploit them. But since we can't rationalize illogical fears, we're as pliant as Gumby for any form of manipulation (some more than others). I have never seen a flock of birds attack a human being. But everytime a flock of crows fly over my head, I'm much more paranoid about getting pecked to death, than getting crapped on. Maybe the biggest challenge to a writer is to take a universal logical fear and turn it into a universal illogical fear.

moozer...

[TinaRM]

Moozer - you had me giggling. Thanks and Welcome!

Tina

[BADOWION]

CRASH- I was just trying to push your buttons. However, for Ellison's explanation to make sense, one must believe that man has evolved from primordial ooze. I certainly do not take that as a given. In fact, I firmly sit on the Creationist side of the fence as you might have guessed.

Either way, it isn't necessarily a fear of the unknown or fear of dying or fear of animals that calls up these emotions. Sometimes, it's a combination of all three: where total understanding spawns fear and this fear manifests itself in envisioning someone you love dying by shark bite, knowing that their soul isn't prepared.

That should confuse everyone.

[Zeeman13]

How does one prepare her soul for dying by shark bite? (I'm going to Florida next weekend, so I need to know.)

[Hangfire 2]

As near as I can tell, you make a donation to the Shoa Foundation.

Take some time. Let it sink in.

[CRASH]

Bad,

Not sure how going off topic would have riled me up. I was quoting Ellison not to make a point about evolution/creationism, but in reference to recent discussions about universal themes in popular movies.

Now, if you had quoted the Bible or used a story from the great Book in reference to the topic of popular movies, then you would be on track. But instead, you used the Bible to make a contrary point to evolution, which is not what any of us is discussing. Furthermore, you post a second time and once again attempt to debunk Ellison and proudly carry the flag of creationism. I had never claimed Ellison was right in his theories nor presented them as "a given" (as a matter of fact, I said it comes from a short story; a work of FICTION), and only used it as a guideline for a certain topic which you don't seem to be seeing.

Not sure why you're so bent on pushing my buttons. I don't give you a thought at all.

[Baby Niblet]

I fear creationists.

[Zeeman13]

Hang, I still haven't gotten it. Is it shark bite, Jaws, Spielberg, leads to Shoa?

[CRASH]

Are we bringing the Jews into it now?

[Zeeman13]

You gotta ask Hang. I'm still trying to figure it out.

[Steve]

I read somewhere that you have people who are afraid of spiders and people who are afraid of snakes but rarely do you find a person who is afraid of both. True?

As for me, I was walking my dog in the park one day and heard what sounded like a broken water pipe. I moved in to investigate and out of the bushes, right at me came an angry 4' rattlesnake. Just about stopped my heart.

But I have a hard time even killing a spider in my house. I feel like they deserve to live there. (So now if I throw a party half of you will probably refuse to come)

Re: the Exorcist I was told by a film professor that the sound of stuck pigs was mixed onto the soundtrack too. And he claimed that theatres showing the film had a big jump in ushers staying home sick. Aparently there's something in that soundtrack that really stresses people out.

[Hangfire 2]

Spielberg made Jaws and co-founded the Shoa Foundation. You got problems with the nightmares he gave you, you gotta throw a little toward a good cause or he'll let Bruce get ya.

[Nemesis Unbound]

I laugh at them Baby Niblet, but then I guess I'm the sort who likes to push buttons too! :evil

I'm disappointed, someone starts a thread with an excerpt from my favorite writer and doesn't tell me first!? :eek Just kidding... You have good taste CRASH and this is a great topic for a thread. In fairness though I don't think BADOWION is trying to be as confrontational as you seem to think, its just his perspective on this topic happens to involve his beliefs. I don't think a discussion of universal fears can take place without taking into account peoples views on the nature of existence, even though I don't agree with his opinion.

[CRASH]

Fair enough. I was just trying to keep the topic from straying too far. First God, then the Jews. Who's next, the Warren Commission?

[GirlinGray]

Faced with myself or a thirty foot great white about to bite my leg off, I am more afraid of the thirty foot great white.

Faced with the dark, it is not what I don't know is in the dark that is scary to me, it is what I know could be there that is scary to me.

[Hangfire 2]

I was going to drag that bitch Ethel Merman into it, but the lawyers for her estate are ready to settle, so I better keep my mouth shut.

"There's no business like Shoa business!"

Did I mention I'm feeling a touch goofy today?

[ksk2]

...is "Shoah". Rough translation: The end of all that is."

I'm afraid of neither serpents nor arachnids. Had both as pets. And both, regardless of popular conjecture or scientific "fact" (which changes perennialy, as happened with the notion that all dinosaurs were cold-blooded) were actively affection pets. Sam (takenfrom bewitched) was my female Boa. Frank (from Rocky-Horror, which I saw at too young an age) was the tarantula.

MY recurrent "twist the gut" fear/terror is the human propensity for witch-hunts, whether in Salem or Hollywood.

[BADOWION]

CRASH- Thank you for the lengthy post to inform me that you don't think of me at all. And to include in that post a phrase so neutral as "again attempt[ing] to debunk Ellison and proudly carry the flag of creationism." Wow. Glad to hear my digression didn't rile you up.

What's the scariest movie of all time? According to Entertainment Weekly, it's "The Exorcist." (Cabin Boy has my vote, but whatever.) Why is The Exorcist scary and to whom is it frightening? My contention is that The Exorcist is scarier to people who don't believe they are going to heaven than to people who do. Consequently, I would argue that these people who do not feel they are going to heaven are more likely to be those who would doubt a religious truth that is so fundamental as is creationism v. evolution.

Now, the opposite side of the same hand (and this is the one that I brought up very briefly in my last post) is that for those who do believe that their spot is reserved in heaven, they fear a movie like The Exorcist because they see in the movie, a revelation of this world and the world beyond for those that they love who have not debunked Ellison in their own mind.

Therein, you find your universal fear that writers can tap into like Steve asked about.

And CRASH, thank you again for not thinking of me. (BTW, I still think you were wrong about the POV issue in The Usual Suspects.)

[CRASH]

Out of desperation, he reaches down to a long forgotten debate for ammo. Click, click.

[Hangfire 2]

I get the feeling I'm the only one paying attention who is giggling all the time. I just now caught on that some folks are actually getting worked up about this. Didn't mean to keep butting in with silliness. God forbid. Oops. Got caught up in it again. Oy vey.

(And thanks for the heads up on Shoah spelling. I hate looking like an idiot. Now where did I put that damn lampshade? I got a date tonight.)

[lilybet]

Hey, Hang, hang your head in shame for butting in with silliness. This is a serious topic, important enough to get nasty about. Whatsamatter with you. Now, what was that premise again? We became humans because we were fleeing sharks. Pass the lampshade, Hang.

[Steve]

Religious zealots of all stripes are universally scary to me. They've killed millions more people than sharks ever will.

[Hangfire 2]

But would Jaws have been half as scary if it was a religious zealot cruising Amity's fair shore? That great score, that amazing cinematography, those beautifull framed shots.... and then some yahoo in a robe hands you a tract and wishes you the best. Hmmm.

[lilybet]

Does this mean you won't be joining my New Church of The Shark, Steve?

[Zeeman13]

Bad, seriously, how does one prepare his soul for death? I'd like to know.

Steve, I'd say clowns versus religious zealots.

Hang, I was at Virginia Beach last year, and the lifeguards had to raise the warning flag because someone saw Pat Robertson in the water.

[BADOWION]

Not desperate. Not reaching for ammo. It just amazes me that a man with your intellect can't take the fact that I had a valid answer for you.

[Baby Niblet]

To prepare your soul for death you should use lots of garlic. To kick it up a notch I like to use a garlic olive oil with tarragon.

BAM!

[Tony R]

Gig,

Different kind of fear, I think. Or maybe not. Maybe I went a little overboard with the "the most powerful fear" thing...but I do think we fear ourselves more than we'd like to admit. We fear chaos, we can't predict what will happen in it, we find security in order. Deep down we think we're the embodiment of chaos, or else why would we have to invent codes of conduct for ourselves (not necessarily others, that's a different ballgame) to follow? Why do we have to keep telling ourselves what to do and what not to do? How many of us can just "let ourselves go", allowing ourselves to think anything we want to think, do whatever we feel at the moment, without the fear that everything we do in that frame of mind would lead to disaster? Do we know for sure that it would?

That's what I was getting at. Fear of a 30 foot shark is obvious. Survival instinct. Maybe the above is the same thing, only at a different level...

[Hangfire 2]

Funny stuff. Made a @#%$ty afternoon a little better. Still can't find the lampshade, though. Maybe it's underneath some of these tracts...

[lilybet]

I know we were attacked by clowns, but what is this clown fear so many people have expressed?

[Baby Niblet]

It must be somewhat universal. I was in a bookstore the other day and found a really cool pop-up book of phobias. It had great pop-ups of the usual phobias (arachno, acro, etc...), but one of the ten or so was a fear of clowns! I forget the official "phobia" name it gets, but it must affect a lot of the population to have a word and a slot in a pop-up book.

[Hangfire 2]

When you're in bed tonight, and it's dark outside, look at your window. Make sure the curtains are open. Make sure of that.

Now imagine a clown is there, looking through your window. At you. His face is smiling, but he is not. He is not smiling at all. Not in his eyes. Where it counts.

[Baby Niblet]

...and the window is on the second story.

[Hangfire 2]

Nice add-on, Niblet.

So here's a question before I bugger off for the weekend. Does the window being on the second floor make the clown scarier or less scary? For me, less so, because it adds an element of the supernatural. For me, the scariest stuff is the stuff that could be real.

I'm more afraid of the clown looking in at ground level.

[lilybet]

I'd be more skeeeerreed if it was Zee looking in my window.

[Baby Niblet]

For me the supernatural clown is scarier. Not because I believe in the supernatural (I don't), but because I find the unexplainable scarier. A clown who is a serial killer (i.e. Gacy) is scary because he is rooted in real life, but in my mind I figure that at least I understand that. If he was outside my window and I had a shotgun, I wouldn't be too scared, but if I saw a FLOATING clown outside my window I would probably pass out.

[Steve]

If I saw a clown outside my second story window I'd just push him off his stilts.

Did anyone ever see "Killer Klowns from Outer Space"? Came out in the 80's. Lousy movie but great scary clowns.

[CRASH]

Bad,

Pulling an old discussion from out of your ass in a weak attempt to one-up is an act of desperation, the kind of desperation so typical of the righteous who are eager to pre-ejaculate Bible quotes to people because they are so easily threatened by the opinions of others.

Any further "valid" statements from you should be directed to One-On-One where real man's bidness is taken care of. And if I don't hear from you there, I'll assume you've ran out of "valid" things to say. Thank you.

[PteranoDon]

The thing that really scares me is socialists. The biggest mass murderers of all time, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, were all socialists. Even Idi Amin didn't start really offing folks in a bif way until he adopted socialism for Uganda.

Socialists, now there's your scary clowns.

[ksk2]

And I still have it on tape somewhere. Great stuff. Especially where the town sherrif is being used as a marionette/ventriloquist dummy by the clowns to threaten Our Hero...

And ya gotta luv that cotton-candy mixed with cannabalism thang... (shudder)

[Nemesis Unbound]

Badowion you are treading the line between expressing opinion and being preachy, which is the point I stop refraining from the religious debate and start debunking Christian mythology. Those sort of arguments always get nasty because of the conviction both sides have that they are right so I prefer to make such contentions through my writing rather than in shouting contests. But I am capable of being very loud.

Crash I think you don't need to be nasty here, attack his points rather than him as tempting as it might be. If you are someone who takes an active interest in the creationism vs. evolution debate then you know exactly where the flaws in his argument lie. You don't need a hammer against a house of cards, just a slight breeze... ;)

[BADOWION]

Nice to see that you've resorted to profanity.

From what I gathered, you took umbrage with the fact that I did not originally provide a specific movie example or that I did not base my response about universal themes in the realm of popular movies. And then I did. (There's your validation.)

Here is the "argument." Your curt one-sentence response to my original post with no further clarification of the topic you sought to discuss was extremely rude. I don't expect an apology.

I wasn't trying to one-up you. I just mentioned The Usual Suspects discussion because you were extremely rude to me then also. The exact quote was "It is the act of the stupid to take the obvious and champion it as the result of deduction." I don't expect an apology for that remark either.

It appears that you are frustrated by the fact that I don't agree with you on more than one topic. I do believe that it is an act of desperation to resort to insult rather than inquiry. It is defintely one thing to "pre-ejaculate" Bible quotes. It is quite another thing indeed to actually believe and be willing to voice these beliefs, no matter how unpopular they have become. I will not apologize for doing so.

I am not the least bit threatened by you or your opinions. If anything, it appears that you feel threatened by my presence on the board. But I won't leave because you don't like my point of view.

I will leave because my work week is over. Have a calm weekend. I'll see you on Monday.

[Bill Marquardt]

True story, but I don't remember the details:

A Peace Corps worker in a South American country thought he would make a big hit with the village folk if he parachuted from an airplane into their midst, wearing a clown suit and makeup. When he landed, the villagers chased him with machetes and he barely escaped being decapitated.

****

I believe the cause of fear in humans is manifold. There may indeed by primordial instincts that survive from our past. Obviously cultural aspects are involved. And if I understand Crash's question, I think that American movies, as well as some European ones, have common themes because we share a similar culture and most likely we share the same instincts. That's not really an answer, but best I can do. A film that comes to mind is the original (Dutch?) version of "Vanished".

P.S. I personally never argue religion for reasons that should be obvious from this thread. People who should like or at least appreciate each other, as they have common interests and goals, now dislike each other without having ever met. I would most appreciate it if we could keep our religious beliefs to ourselves, whether espousing Creationism or trashing Scientology. But that's me. Trust me, guys, NO religion can stand the scrutiny of objective skepticism. That doesn't mean there is no God, it means belief in God (or a god) requires *Faith*. We shall all find out who the winner is when we die. Until then let's have fun and enjoy each other's company.

(Is my existentialism showing?)

[GirlinGray]

Oh well I do not believe in order. You build a little house and put up a picket fence and buy a washer and a dryer and then you may think you have got order but then an earthquake opens a hole in the ground and your house falls in with the washer and dryer and picket fence too and where is your order then? It did not exist. It was made up.

Hey and by the way, nobody gets into heaven for "being good" or "believing the right thing." Christian doctrine is based on the precept of grace of God. That means God has favorites and that is the way it is and it does not make a difference what you believe or do you are either a favorite kid and get in or you are not a favorite kid and do not get in. Look it up. (wink)

[ksk2]

[ksk2]

"Turning the other cheek".

Can we get back to Harlan now?

I think his live commentary on the reality of slavery in the modern world (which I've seen live) is more interesting than
slavery to doctrine.

Then again, I dig Carlos Castanada and that wunnerful li'l guy in the wheelchair that explains how the universe "happened". Whadda I know?

[Steve]

So we have these universal fears like sharks and monsters and demons that make for very successful movies. What are the universal positive journeys? What do people want so much that they flock to see a movie about someone getting it? Love is an obvious answer but look at "American Beauty." It obviously struck a chord and it was about a guy having a breakdown. But a breakdown that was somehow very appealing.

So, what do you think are the things that people univerally want that are powerful enough to wrap a plot around?

[Bill Marquardt]

Sexual prowess and power seem to be universal and time-tested, but I am not sure everyone will consider that positive. How about self-preservation, the will to survive despite all odds?

[GirlinGray]

Wow, Steve, did you really think American Beauty was about a guy having a break down? I did not see it that way at all, I saw a guy who came to the realization it was ludicrous being miserable living by a bunch of societal rules who chucked them and got happy. Till of course society had to kill him because it can't tolerate people living outside the rules.

[Rabid Runner]

I saw American Beauty as a poor attempt by a British producer to capture the essence of American life. Once again, our British neighbors fail to see through the London fog, much less across the Atlantic. They would do better to stick to reruns of Mr. Bean.

[Breyen]

That which delves into the subconscious . . . reaches all audiences. I can remember seeing Jaws in the theater when I was six. (My aunt took my brother and I. She's also the one who took us to see Close in Counters and Time Bandits. . . hence my fear of UFO abductions and time traveling little people)

Anyways - I can remember pulling my feet up onto the seat. I'm sure everyone else in the audience did as well - Today, as an adult, I still get flashbacks from that film while I'm water skiing, or even swimming in a pool. That is the true mastery of that film. Those memories are pulled from my nether regions and get me everytime. Even if I'm drinking a glass of water at the water cooler.

[Zeeman13]

"I'd be more skeeeerreed if it was Zee looking in my window."

Now that's what I call wishful thinking. Why am I suddenly reminded of the scene from There's Something About Mary where Matt Dillon is peeping with binoculars? (shudder)

[Cornell]

Dittos, Breyen, except the water cooler part.

Zee--were you born a bastard? (grin--you know what I'm referring to--wink). Oh, and are you still laughing at me?

Cornell

P.S. Maybe I'll take that one part back...cause I surely don't won't to suffer the wrath of Zee! Of course, he knows it's a statement derived elsewhere. WHITE FLAG!

[lilybet]

Zee, I just won my bet with myself.

[Steve]

GIG I suppose I should have put "breakdown" in quotes. I mean from scoiety's standards, it appeared he was having a breakdown.

If you look at his behavior: quitting his job, buying a muscle car, becoming a pot head, throwing food against the wall, trying to seduce his daughter's 16 year old friend, going to work in a fast food restaurant.... Suppose one of your friends husband's suddenly did that. Would you think he was chucking rules and getting happy? Or might you be a little bit alarmed? It's not the kind of behavior that most people dream about, at least consciously, yet it did seem to tap into a more unconscious desire.

Also, if you really look at it he didn't end up dead because society couldn't tolerate him breaking the rules. He ended up dead because he was working out in his garage with a teenager and from the perspective of the pyscho father looking in the window it appeared they were having sex. It's a tribute to Alan Ball's writing that that took on much greater significance but really, it could have happened the same way if he was still a "normal" suburban father who was simply working out with the neighbor kid.

[ksk2]

Jaws thrilled me, but the Spielberg flick (my fave Steven flick) that really "got" to me was Duel. Again, the unknown; we never really know anything about the psycho-trucker, and all we ever see is hand / ring and his boots...

[lilybet]

Steve, I thought he was killed because the killer had exposed his deepest desires and was rejected. Amazing the discussions this movie provokes.

Still appreciating your contributions to the board.

lil

[Zeeman13]

Steve, I don't know if that's a breakdown or a mid-life crisis, but he's basically being an Epicurean, I think, to make up for lost time.

Lil, I bet that ain't the only thing you have to do with only yourself, you HIPPIE!! (wink)

[lilybet]

Zee, another quarter from me to myself. You arrogant, "God's gift to ..." S.O.B. (wink)

This is getting too ridiculous for me. I'm out.

[ksk2]

Is a blind date between Lil and Z.

huge wink.

[Tony R]

Gig,

My sentiments exactly. (the first paragraph) We chase the illusion of order because we're afraid of the chaos. I'm not sure there is anything to fear, so why do I fear "it" anyway?

[ksk2]

Because you and I have dated the same sorts of people.

Regarding fear, mutual experience is a tenured Professor at Ivy League... :rollin

"If ya know what I mean, and I think that you do..."

[CRASH]

What? Are you guys living a Saul Bellow novel?

[ksk2]

More like Armistead Maupin! :rollin

[Bill Marquardt]

Personally, the reason I became a human was I couldn't stand the smell of sea water.

[Cornell]

Bill, sure, sure...and drinking Bloody Mary's every damn day. Like YUKKKK.