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sc111
10-31-2006, 11:32 AM
Let's face it - execs are always looking for concepts which attract a male audience. And that could be a big factor as to why more sold spec scripts are penned by men.

I mean - it can't be talent. Because - although it's true more men write produced films it's also true that more male writers, directors and producers are responsible for lousy films.

With that said, I'm thinking it has more to do with execs being more likely to buy scripts targeting a male audience.

Perhaps we women writers of Done Deal may do well to put aside our "women's stories" and consider writing spec scripts targeting a male audience.

And we can do it by following the dictum: write what you know.

All we have to do is apply what we know through a lifetime of dealing with those lovable, inscrutable characters called: the guys in our lives.

Examples:

Horror genre: we women can easily create a male character possessed by a relentless demon hellbent on releasing his - um - you know - on womenkind. Just think of your guy at those moments when his Mr. Winky is in control of his mind, body and soul. The glazed look in his eyes when the demon beckons him, the unfathomable lengths he'll go to satisfy his craving. The weird noises he makes when - um - you know. This is all fodder for horror, girls.

Suspense genre: Will he remember my birthday? Will he make a pass at my best friend? Will he ever make a damn commitment or will he suddenly disappear from my life without a word? These are some of the real-life experiences women writers can draw from to write heart-pounding suspense.

Psychological Thrillers: Without a doubt - men are more practiced at lying and much better at mind games. But, since women are often on the receiving end of all this, we have a lot of experience ferreting out the truth -- checking phone bills, credit card statements, car mileage, flipping through his wallet while he's in the shower. Let's face it girls - our real-time love lives are more often "thrillers" than they are "rom-coms." Use this in your writing.

Sci-Fi: I know women can write compelling stories about the distant future. Heck, we often imagine our entire lives with a guy and name the yet-to-be-born kids we will have with him after the first or second date. Now to mention - we can create complex myths around the current object of our affection while entirely ignoring the reality of who he is. If we can tap our imaginations to do this we can easily write excellent science fiction, my sisters.

Gross-out Comedy: Any woman who has lasted in a long term relationship with a guy (and has washed his BVDs) has a sense of humor. Enough said

:)

madmaxmedia
10-31-2006, 11:38 AM
Very nice. I think your post illustrates an excellent way of turning a potential negative into a unique positive.

I wouldn't say that spec sales (or that movies in general) are totally geared towards males to the point of exclusion. It's just that certain genres have traditionally catered to one sex or the other, the obvious examples being action and rom-com (as you mentioned.)

But...by taking traditionally male genre and giving it a bit of female perspective twist, I think you can definitely use that to create something that is unique.

sarajb
10-31-2006, 11:47 AM
I really don't see myself as a female writer trying to sell a spec in a man's world and can't imagine approaching it this way. I find labeling, especially self-labeling, a psychological limitation most of the time. I'm sure it could work for some, but not me.

sc111
10-31-2006, 11:50 AM
It was my tongue-in-cheek response to the now locked thread on women writers.

sarajb
10-31-2006, 11:52 AM
:rolling:

Sorry, sc. LOLOLOLOL, okay, whew. I'm glad to hear that. :)

Jcorona
10-31-2006, 11:56 AM
I will gladly submit any DD lady's scipt to any reputable person under my name. And we should change your name on the copyrights to my name as soon as possible in case, ya know, they check and stuff. Of course I'm not charging anything. I do this 'cause I love you guys.

Corona :)

DMNY
10-31-2006, 11:57 AM
I will gladly submit any DD lady's scipt to any reputable person under my name. And we should change your name on the copyrights to my name as soon as possible in case, ya know, they check and stuff. Of course I'm not charging anything. I do this 'cause I love you guys.

Corona :) :D

And sc...Ahem...

sc111
10-31-2006, 12:06 PM
:D

And sc...Ahem...


DMNY - it's an equal opportunity jab at both sexes. Notice the Sci-Fi paragraph, I'm poking fun at how we women often go overboard in the imagination department. And notice the Thriller paragraph, poking fun at both sexes also.

I did this for you, baby!

;)

Goon Squad
10-31-2006, 12:14 PM
This is in no way meant to provoke any one or anything, but I wonder - statistically speaking - what percentage of women that write spec scripts sell compared to men.

sarajb
10-31-2006, 12:19 PM
Far from scientific, but after the WGA link that stated women represent 25% of scripts registered, I followed genders on the script sales page for a while. I don’t remember for how long I did it, but women represented roughly 15% of the sales for that time frame.

writerman
10-31-2006, 12:21 PM
I wonder what percentage of men who secretly want to be women sell spec scripts by women who secretly want to be men selling spec scripts to either women who want to stay women or to men who want to stay men, so long as the check clears?

:jawdrop:

Bellabell
10-31-2006, 12:23 PM
Does anyone know the actual statistics? Are there the same amount of scripts written by women as men? or are there just fewer women writers?

Bellabell
10-31-2006, 12:24 PM
Far from scientific, but after the WGA link that stated women represent 25% of scripts registered, I followed genders on the script sales page for a while. I donít remember for how long I did it, but women represented roughly 15% of the sales for that time frame.

nevermind, Sarah beat me to it.

sarajb
10-31-2006, 12:28 PM
Here's the link sc found in the old thread, bellabell:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/la/?id=110007453

And, in the article it also says women represent 18% of working screenwriters. I somehow missed that the first time.

DMNY
10-31-2006, 12:38 PM
DMNY - it's an equal opportunity jab at both sexes. Notice the Sci-Fi paragraph, I'm poking fun at how we women often go overboard in the imagination department. And notice the Thriller paragraph, poking fun at both sexes also.

I did this for you, baby!

;)
I don't really have a problem with that at all (as some people might think). I just hope this thread would go along without turning into ugly territories...
:)

Biohazard
10-31-2006, 12:42 PM
Without a doubt - men are more practiced at lying and much better at mind games.

I hope nobody minds if I take this as a compliment.

But seriously, all that matters is how good your writing is, not your sex. Just because you're a male or female doesn't mean you're automatically better than someone else of the opposite gender.

If you're good, you're good. If you're not, you're not. Period. Nothing else matters.

Goon Squad
10-31-2006, 12:45 PM
I wonder what percentage of men who secretly want to be women sell spec scripts by women who secretly want to be men selling spec scripts to either women who want to stay women or to men who want to stay men, so long as the check clears?

:jawdrop:


Six. Everyone knows that.

DMNY
10-31-2006, 12:47 PM
I hope nobody minds if I take this as a compliment.

But seriously, all that matters is how good your writing is, not your sex. Just because you're a male or female doesn't mean you're automatically better than someone else of the opposite gender.

If you're good, you're good. If you're not, you're not. Period. Nothing else matters.
Bio...Kudos. :)

Goon Squad
10-31-2006, 12:50 PM
If you're good, you're good. If you're not, you're not. Period. Nothing else matters.



So you believe there is no bias in Hollywood? The "boy's club" myth is just that - a myth? Just asking.

madmaxmedia
10-31-2006, 01:18 PM
It was my tongue-in-cheek response to the now locked thread on women writers.

Ha ha, joke's on me! I guess your examples should have made it obvious, I just got to thinking about shifting perspectives in more traditionally male-oriented movies (for example something like ALIENS.)

sarajb
10-31-2006, 01:19 PM
ďBoyís clubĒ hasnít become full-on myth, Iím sure, but on the whole in written to working, 25% female-registered scripts vs. 18% working female screenwriters isnít a huge disparity and at that couldnít all be attributed to some boyís club phenomenon. Right?

Or, were you just asking bio?

Laura Reyna
10-31-2006, 01:25 PM
sc111:
How can more women sell spec scripts?


I'm a woman.

Just a personal opinion, but i think that, tho there may not be conscious discrimination of women by individual men, there is a psychological & sociological bias that comes into play when buying scripts and hiring women.

Women are at a disadvantage in Hollywood b/c the industry is focused on a young MALE audience. And the perception is that female screenwriters can't write to that audience (at least not as well as male writers).

This is still an industry run mostly by men, making products for other men, & hiring other men to write & film those products. So..

what should female writers do to increase their chances of getting sold?

Assuming the writer already has some skill & knows how to write a good script, here's some suggestions:

1) Put a female spin on male-oriented stories or genres

2) put male leads in stories/genres considered female-oriented e.g. Rom Coms

3)Write bigger, external,action-oriented stories-- not small, internal, char driven stories

4) Related to #3, write in an action-oriented popular genre-- stay away from Indie type stories or dramas

5) Make male & female protags equal, preferably in a male-oriented genre-- don't relagate the female to "the g/f" role

6) When submitting consider using initials or male sounding name

7) Get a male writing partner

8) Get a male producing partner

9) Be more agressive in your marketing

That's all i can think of right now.:)

sarajb
10-31-2006, 01:28 PM
BAM!

sc111
10-31-2006, 01:41 PM
MadMax - yes, it was tongue-in-cheek but at the same time it is true.

stvnlra - all true but then again I'm thinking of something that applies to ...

Boski - You're ignoring a big factor, perhaps women don't CHOOSE to write those types of stories. Not because they're not good at it - because they don't want to.

When I'm with just regular people discussing films as a movie lover I find that more men want an escapist experience when they go to a big studio produced film - action & pure entertainment. And more women want an emotional experience - films that make them think and feel. Perhaps this crries over to women writers influencing the type of films they like to work on.

Of course, many men do appreciate the latter and they tend to go for Indy and foreign films.

Those films you say men are better at writing are often THIN ON CHARACTER.

Goon Squad
10-31-2006, 01:52 PM
ďBoyís clubĒ hasnít become full-on myth, Iím sure, but on the whole in written to working, 25% female-registered scripts vs. 18% working female screenwriters isnít a huge disparity and at that couldnít all be attributed to some boyís club phenomenon. Right?

Or, were you just asking bio?

I agree that there isn't a huge dif between 25 and 18. The article from opinion journal (or whatever) that someone linked to disagrees.


I don't have a strong opinion on the subject, but I am interested in what others think about it. So you, bio, anyone can answer. I think the "If you're good, you're good" adage is fine, except I think that if you're "mediocre" you stand a better chance of breaking in if you're a dude. So everyone can take that for what it's worth.

amandag
10-31-2006, 01:56 PM
I think everyone on these boards should just have sex and get it over with.

sc111
10-31-2006, 02:07 PM
The last time we discussed this - I found info stating that during the early days westerns, war movies and film noir were written by more women writers than male. Mostly because it was a low paying job.

During WW2, more female screenwriters penned films of all genres since most guys were drafted into service.

This was also the 'Rosie The Riveter' phase when women had to do a lot of jobs once dominated by men during time of war.

When the war was over there was an expectation that women step aside and give all these jobs back to the returning veterans. Some did. Some were fired so the vets could take their place. Then fought for our country - opinion was they deserved the jobs. A sense of entitlement.

With the post-war booming economy families could afford to have Mom stay home. But by the 60s and 70s, when the rise in divorce left a lot of women raising kids alone and inflation cut back on how far you could stretch a dollar - women pushed back into the workforce and there was resentment.

Women were taking jobs away from men because they were willing to work for less. It's the 21st century - women still make 40-cents for every dollar a man makes for the same job.

I think a lot of people are ignoring that the trend started during post WW2. The subconscious idea that men "deserve" jobs over women runs deep.

Some of the guys posting here make assumptions based on a thin space of time. But trends of discrimination against women and racial miniorities often become subconscious after many decades.

I also think men often find excuses to hire other men, saying their decision is based on skill, when the truth is - when the money-making stakes are high men get distracted by women who are their equal.

Men have told me that in business they feel compelled to be 'nicer' to women execs, Or, they're distracted by what she's wearing or wondering how she looks naked.

It's not our fault that sex crosses men's minds every 6 seconds but we py the price.

Enter the ball-busting bitch. It's no mistake that many women in powerful positions play down their feminity and take on the bitch personna. Once less attractive to men they tend to be treated more as equals.

:|

haunted
10-31-2006, 02:23 PM
Enter the ball-busting bitch. It's no mistake that many women in powerful positions play down their feminity and take on the bitch personna.
That, if you'll forgive me, is a load of crap.

I've worked with and for women in many jobs. Some of them acted like bitches. Some didn't. There was no difference in power or effectiveness between the ones who acted like bitches and the ones who acted like decent, respectable, respectful people.

I think, based on my own experience, the whole "if you're a woman with power, they call you a bitch" thing is largely a myth propagated by women who happen to be bitches, to excuse their bitchy behavior.

Powerful guys who act like assh*les don't get a free pass because it's somehow understood that a guy has to be an assh*le to gain power. Why should women who act like bitches get a free pass? Whose twisted idea of equality is that?

Laura Reyna
10-31-2006, 02:51 PM
I don't have any interest in trying to convince anyone that it's harder for women-- that they're at a disadvantage, that they're thought less competent by some, etc. You either believe it, or you don't. Whatever. I don't really care.

I'm more interested in finding out how i personally can get around all this. I want to make it easier for myself, & find success.

If getting sold & working as a pro means i have to write what's popular, then i'll write what's popular. Lucky for me I like popular movies. I like entertainment. :)

Alyssa Runswithwolves
10-31-2006, 02:51 PM
Producers and execs are mostly men. They have to be passionate about a project to get it made. They make what appeals to them. I'm sure they have the target audience in mind also; more men.

Generally the script is written by a man for a man.

How can more women sell scripts? Think like a woman but write like a man.

It's all about the demographics. What's appealing to an 18yr old male is appealing to an 80yr old. It's a clean sweep.

This isn't what I think goes on all the time. But it seems to be common.

(And who cares what I think anyway?)

One more thing comes to mind. Men seem to be more at ease pitching and marketing themselves. Could it be a networking imbalance?

sc111
10-31-2006, 03:02 PM
Haunted -

I didn't say they were called bitches, I said that many take on the bitch personna to be taken seriously. And I'm talking about women in high positions of power. Not middle management.

Discrimination exists - you see it right here in this thread. Boski is convinced men's brains make them better at writing High Concept films.

What a silly blanket statement - this didn't bother you?

sc111
10-31-2006, 03:08 PM
Gauchita -

In my experience, men appear to be often better at promoting themselves.

I think a number of women suffer from, "I'm not good enough" syndrome.

In the ad industry, I've seen men present their painfully mediocre work with such bravado, so in awe of their "genius" and tooting their own horn ... yet that confidence did often work. Sort of like an "Emperor's new clothes" effect. And the clients bought into mediocre.

Meanwhile, women nitpick themselves to great degrees, often blind to their own talent because it hasn't hit their own extreme high expectations.

Women also do this to themselves in terms of their looks, bodies, etc. (ergo more women go for plastic surgery than men in search of perfection).

Meanwhile, pot-bellied guys strut into a room acting like they're a gift to womankind. I wish more women could take on that attitude in all aspects of their lives.

J off course
10-31-2006, 04:10 PM
My favorite movie of all time was written by a female, directed by
a female and had an all-female cast and no, it wasn't a lesbian flick,
although that genre has been pretty successful.
So..I'm all for more female writers. (They have a great grasp of
buddy/friendship stories among other things)

I just believe, however, that females have always been regarded
as the inspiration for men's creativity and never their competition.

I'm afraid it's an uphill battle for women to challenge that belief.

ihavebiglips
10-31-2006, 05:42 PM
Let's face it - execs are always looking for concepts which attract a male audience. And that could be a big factor as to why more sold spec scripts are penned by men.

I mean - it can't be talent. Because - although it's true more men write produced films it's also true that more male writers, directors and producers are responsible for lousy films.

With that said, I'm thinking it has more to do with execs being more likely to buy scripts targeting a male audience.

Perhaps we women writers of Done Deal may do well to put aside our "women's stories" and consider writing spec scripts targeting a male audience.

And we can do it by following the dictum: write what you know.

All we have to do is apply what we know through a lifetime of dealing with those lovable, inscrutable characters called: the guys in our lives.

Examples:

Horror genre: we women can easily create a male character possessed by a relentless demon hellbent on releasing his - um - you know - on womenkind. Just think of your guy at those moments when his Mr. Winky is in control of his mind, body and soul. The glazed look in his eyes when the demon beckons him, the unfathomable lengths he'll go to satisfy his craving. The weird noises he makes when - um - you know. This is all fodder for horror, girls.

Suspense genre: Will he remember my birthday? Will he make a pass at my best friend? Will he ever make a damn commitment or will he suddenly disappear from my life without a word? These are some of the real-life experiences women writers can draw from to write heart-pounding suspense.

Psychological Thrillers: Without a doubt - men are more practiced at lying and much better at mind games. But, since women are often on the receiving end of all this, we have a lot of experience ferreting out the truth -- checking phone bills, credit card statements, car mileage, flipping through his wallet while he's in the shower. Let's face it girls - our real-time love lives are more often "thrillers" than they are "rom-coms." Use this in your writing.

Sci-Fi: I know women can write compelling stories about the distant future. Heck, we often imagine our entire lives with a guy and name the yet-to-be-born kids we will have with him after the first or second date. Now to mention - we can create complex myths around the current object of our affection while entirely ignoring the reality of who he is. If we can tap our imaginations to do this we can easily write excellent science fiction, my sisters.

Gross-out Comedy: Any woman who has lasted in a long term relationship with a guy (and has washed his BVDs) has a sense of humor. Enough said

:)






You're awesome. :bounce:

tabula rasa
10-31-2006, 06:09 PM
How can more women sell scripts? Think like a woman but write like a man.


'Write gay ... act straight' -- who said that? but y'know, once you start watching the heady intellectual dialogue stuff: yep. add an Brit accent and they're not even acting it all that straight! :)

Don't waste time on summer action flix too, probably.

'An ACTRESS becomes something more than a Woman; an ACTOR becomes something less than a Man'

Write for the UNIVERSAL and the INTIMATE ... not for the character or the self.

Bellabell
10-31-2006, 06:19 PM
Women will sell more specs when there are more women studio execs and producers. I have the privilege of being mentored by a reputable producer. this woman is not afraid of taking chances and she is one that championed for films with a woman protagonist. This last year it paid off big time for her.

JayKid
10-31-2006, 06:42 PM
There is no doubt in my mind that women are geared differently personality-wise and that's where the problem starts.

It's not that they are less talented writers (that's incredibly subjective anyway). It's that the stories they write (and want to write) are based off the type of people they are and that usually isn't as marketable as something based off a guys personality. And why we market movies towards men I'm not sure... but maybe they tend to see more movies? (I don't have anything supporting that claim though)

You can not dispute that your gender plays a role in shaping your personality. You also can't deny that your personality shapes the stories you write.

Unfortunately this means that women won't do as well as screenwriters (not right now anyway) since the movies that come out are mainly marketed towards males. Look at some of the movies that came out this year that did fairly well:

Pirates of the Carribean 2
Superman Returns
The Departed

These are not the type of movies most women enjoy and although I don't know many female writers (and no female screenwriters, except for the ones here), I am going to take a guess that most women would rather watch other movies (PotC is a slight exception since it's popular in general and ladies love Johnny Depp and Orlando Bloom).

I'm not saying all women are going to love some emotional flick like Titanic or The Notebook, but a lot of them do. Because they enjoy watching these movies, they will most likely attempt to write similar movies as well--theme-wise, plot-wise, character-wise or whatever (and obviously there are other genres I'm not mentioning). Obviously guys love these movies too, but they just aren't what is as marketable--it's the less character-driven, intense action film that will end up being more marketable because it "looks cool".

I just feel that's the major reason why women probably don't fair well as screenwriters. It's all about what's marketable.

You know why they do well as novelists though? Well, romance novels are probably the major reason (as well as a few other genres they do well with). And novels allow them to be more introspective and character-driven, something I feel comes easier to women than men...

Men are problem solvers. They tend to think visually (often why they are supposively stronger at spatial skills) and don't get carried away with ideas. Women on the other hand like to take the long route from point A to B and are more conscientious about what they do. It's a major reason why women are far better conversationalists. They are great listeners and talkers. Men, however, avoid this type of thing.

Now if you think about screenplay compared to a novel it's the difference between a phone conversation between two males and one between two females. One drags on forever, the other ends very quickly. I'm not up to date on my gender personality research or anything, but I'm pretty sure there is some major differeneces there that cause this behavior change. So, that's the other reason why I believe there aren't as many women screenwriters.

It's not a talent issue or anything like that, it's just kind of how they are geared psychologically. Certainly there are people of both sexes who will cross boundries, but I think there is something there that is at fault.

To be honest though... I'm not positive. I'm just throwing stuff out there. But that's the best thing I got and I think it's a fair assumption.

nic.h
10-31-2006, 07:02 PM
i think if women realized that the shallowness they are raised on, and raise their children on was counterproductive they wouldn't play with dolls anymore and FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY, they wouldn't wait their entire lives to get marriad.

who gives a shaite about getting marriad anyway? How about stopping cheerleading all together. how degrading is it to have women parading around in barely any clothes cheering on men?

seriously, cheerleading is part and parcel why women are underlings for our society and if they were not able to have children they'd be cast aside like hamburger at a center cut banquet.

Ignoring the blatant and mindless generalisations going on here, this, I'm afraid, seems more of an American concept than an international one. (So why not add another? :) ) Women here - in Australia - play sport. We actually PLAY SPORT. We don't just cheer men on, in fact, who could be bothered, really? (There's a token cheerleading thing in rugby league, but that's one of the minor sports in this country, so it's easy to ignore.) Marriage rates are dropping here too - women still want kids - that's a pretty powerful biological drive that isn't easily ignored (believe me, I tried :) ) but we don't actually need a dude to do that anymore. And I think that's great. Several of my friends have opted to be single mothers, or gay mothers, and though the sperm factor demands male participation, that's pretty much the end of their contribution. Nobody seems to be missing out on anything, the kids are happy and well adjusted, their mums are educated and engaged in the community, and there's no violence in their house. At all. Ever. In a world where 1 in 5 women are subjected to domestic violence as perpetrated by men - the ones who claim to love them - I'd say that's a damn healthy approach.

BTW, I'm married - close to 12 years now. I have two kids and though my husband is cute and nice, certainly nicer than most, truth is, to quote Julianne Moore in Trust the Man, marriage is overrated.

I'd much rather write screenplays. (If only I could get a good nanny.) ;)

haunted
10-31-2006, 07:07 PM
this, I'm afraid, seems more of an American concept than an international one.
I can't for the life of me imagine why you'd assume vig speaks for all of America.

sarajb
10-31-2006, 07:10 PM
Unfortunately this means that women won't do as well as screenwriters...
Well, when they do write scripts, it seems they fare alright. There’s only a 7% drop from percent of scripts registered to working screenwriters. Mostly, it appears not many women choose to be screenwriters.

While it’s interesting and even fun to speculate why, what comes out is good for little more than conversation, because few of us can be so easily categorized and broadly referenced. I would hope the stereotypes discussed here aren’t really seen as believed assumptions used to navigate the individuals we meet. That would be sad.
One drags on forever, the other ends very quickly.ahem :p

nic.h
10-31-2006, 07:16 PM
You know? I wish I hadn't even replied to TRO's email. It's just so stupid and says more about him (and I suspect his emotional health) than it does about this topic.

I think the above comment: "You can not dispute that your gender plays a role in shaping your personality. You also can't deny that your personality shapes the stories you write" has some vailidity. Of course gender impacts our personality - but how much is the question. Mysogynists would have you believe it's all we are, no more, no less. But of course that's stupid or every woman would be and think exactly the same. I can't even get agreement on most topics across the women in my immediate family, let alone across a whole species. I mean, seriously, human beings are way more complex than that.

These are steroptypes, which yes, mean there are probably a lot of people who on the surface fit this mould, but underneath, and across a population, there will be more dissimilarities than similarities.

You can't underestimate the role of power structures. They are there to protect and maintain the status quo. That's why they work! I have no idea if women write better or men do - how could you measure that anyway. But it's easy to identify why men are more SUCCESSFUL in film than women are. Just look at who's making the decisions. This works across all industries, and all cultures, and, sadly, both hemispheres.

I'm not even sure I want to change that. I used to. I used to rail against it. Now. Not so much. Women live longer. Die happier. (These are facts.) Two or three years of your lifespan seems like a big price to pay for success.

sc111
10-31-2006, 07:18 PM
The Status of Women in Hollywood – Where the Boys Are!
1) Of the 250 top-grossing films released in 2004, what percentage were directed by a woman?
Answer: 5%

2) On those films, what percentage of all those working as directors, executive producers, producers, writers, cinematographers, or editors were women?
Answer: 16%

3) Is that an increase or a decrease since 2001?
Answer: Decrease! In 2001, the figure was 19%

4) Of the 250 top-grossing films released in 2004, what percentage employed NO women as directors, executive producers, producers, writers, cinematographers, or editors?
Answer: 21%*

5) What percentage failed to employ any men in these positions?
Answer: Zero!

6) What percentage of the screenwriters working on these films were women?
Answer: 12%

7) What percentage of the cinematographers working on these films were women?
Answer: 3%!

8) Of all the speaking parts in the 101 top-grossing G-rated movies released between 1990 and 2004, what percentage are female?
Answer: 25%

The History of Women in the Film Industry –
The Way We Were

1) Who is credited with directing the first narrative film? In what year?
Answer: Alice Guy, 1896

2) Between 1912 and 1925, how many of Hollywood’s films were written by women?
Answer: Almost half!

3) Who was the first woman to direct a full-length feature film?
Answer: Lois Weber, Merchant of Venice, 1914

4) Who was the first woman of African descent to direct a major Hollywood studio film?
Answer: Euzhan Palcy, A Dry White Season, 1989

5) Who was Universal Studios’ highest paid director in 1916?
Answer: Lois Weber

Source:
http://www.womenarts.org/push/TriviaQuizAnswers.htm (http://www.womenarts.org/push/TriviaQuizAnswers.htm)

*Yet, even with these low percentages of women working in film in 2004 - look at the writers for the 2004 Oscar nominated films and nominated actors.

Lord of The Rings, Return of the King: Adapted Screenplay, Fran Walsh

In America: Kristen & Naomi Sheridan

American Splendor: Shri Springer Bergman (writer/director)

Lost in Transltion: Sofia Coppola (writer/director)

Monster: Patty Jenkins

Something's Got To Give: Nancy Meyers

Thirteen: Nikki Reed

Whale Rider: Niki Caro


You boys catch any of those films?

;)

nic.h
10-31-2006, 07:21 PM
I can't for the life of me imagine why you'd assume vig speaks for all of America.

I meant cheerleading - it hardly exists outside of America. But I regret replying to his post because it suggests his comment actually warrants a reply. And it doesn't.

So, I'm sorry you misunderstood me, and I'm even sorrier I dignified his comment with a response.

haunted
10-31-2006, 07:22 PM
You boys catch any of those films?
Nah, I don't watch a movie if I know a woman had a hand in writing it. :rolleyes:




Actually, I caught *all* of them. Why wouldn't a "boy" see those movies?

Couldn't get more than 10 minutes into Thirteen, but the rest ranged from okay to great.

Does seem a little misleading, though, to leave out the names of the men who co-wrote some of those movies.

DMNY
10-31-2006, 07:24 PM
Oh and let's not forget
American Psycho - adapted by Mary Harron
Brokeback Mountain - Diana Ossana (yes, with Larry McMurtry)
Just adding...

Hamboogul
10-31-2006, 07:26 PM
And don't forget Lana Wachowski who did all those Matrix movies with her brother.

sc111
10-31-2006, 07:28 PM
And don't forget Lana Wachowski who did all those Matrix movies with her brother.

:rolling:

Then again, some say he/she stole the original story from an African-American woman.

sarajb
10-31-2006, 07:30 PM
Deus just broke in with something called ARMORED. Can you imagine any of the women around here writing that? :)
Apparently, you can't. :)

JayKid
10-31-2006, 07:35 PM
DOUBLE BAM!

:rolleyes: WHAT AN IDIOTiotic statement.

I'm glad you think so... but I'm curious to why you think it's so idiotic.

So you are telling that the phrase "write what you know" is wrong? People write what they know and there is no disputing that depending on your personality (and the type of person you are) will reflect your writing. It plays a HUGE role. Maybe it came off wrong, but that's what I meant by the first part of that statement. If that is idiotic, I'd like to know why and here some counter arguement... not just "double bam! what an idiotiotic statement." If you are going to be offensive then back it up.

Second comment I made was regarding that the things they write (based off their personality) are less marketable. Now I was generalizing, but what kind of movies do you feel the general population of women (let's assume America) like the most? I'm going to doubt it's some insane, plot-driven action thriller, which seem to be highly marketable. And do you really see movies with the frat pack (Vince Vaughn, Will Farrell, and the others) marketing towards women or men? I think it's fair to say those movies (those type of comedies and rom-coms) are often geared more towards men then women. I know far more men that loved Wedding Crashers then women. Not to say it wasn't marketed towards both of them, but I don't think it's an unfair assumption to say that movies nowadays are being marketed towards males.

Now whether or not women personalities aren't geared towards writing this material isn't something I'm positive about and I'm sorry for that generalization, but what's so idiotic about it? Women love emotional, character-driven movies... those don't sell and we all know that. They often aren't as "high concept" and might make great movies, but aren't as marketable.

It's a generalization, but I don't feel it's an idiotic one. So, please, explain to me your side if you want to call me an idiot.

DMNY
10-31-2006, 07:35 PM
Guys and gals...Please let's keep it cool and stop with the finger pointing.
Thank you.

ihavebiglips
10-31-2006, 07:40 PM
Lord of The Rings, Return of the King: Adapted Screenplay, Fran Walsh Works.

In America: Kristen & Naomi Sheridan LOVE THIS FILM, but give Jim Sheridan his props as well. ;)

American Splendor: Shri Springer Bergman (writer/director) One of my favorites

Lost in Transltion: Sofia Coppola (writer/director) Not a hater like everyone else.

Monster: Patty Jenkins Love it.

Something's Got To Give: Nancy Meyers Haven't seen it.

Thirteen: Nikki Reed The scariest movie I've ever seen.

Whale Rider: Niki Caro Beautiful.


You boys catch any of those films?

;)

I actually own all of these except the Meyers one that I haven't seen. I like Nicole Holofcener and Mary Harron as well. Oh, and Alison Maclean is a talented and underrated director.

Also, my girlfriend got me into Gilmore Girls... um... am I gay?

DMNY
10-31-2006, 07:42 PM
Good God!
watching a program doesn't make you gay, lips.

haunted
10-31-2006, 07:43 PM
Difficult to say, biglips. On the one hand, you have a girlfriend. But on the other, you watch Gilmore Girls.

I'd call it a wash, making you technically asexual.

ihavebiglips
10-31-2006, 07:46 PM
Good God!
watching a program doesn't make you gay, lips.

I was joking, dude. I'm not ignorant, I'm just big boned.

DMNY
10-31-2006, 07:46 PM
Honestly, if these are the kind of posts we are about to get here...A few will have to be removed.
I'd rather keep an interesting thread going without having to see it wind down into something else.
Last warning and thaaaaaaaaaank you. :)

haunted
10-31-2006, 07:47 PM
DMNY, step back and have a laugh. A little humor is salt for a good thread.

JayKid
10-31-2006, 07:50 PM
Guys and gals...Please let's keep it cool and stop with the finger pointing.
Thank you.

Sorry if you are talking to me, but I'm not finger pointing, I'm just looking for an explaination on why the comment I made was "IDIOTiotic."

And Boski, I agree, women won't write that type of thing because it just doesn't appeal to them (obviously not all, but I hope everyone realizes I'm not dumb enough to think everyone women out there is the same). And unfortunately that is the type of script that will get you selling specs. It's not that they are less talented, it's that the personalities most women have don't gear them towards the marketable movies (which is what you need to sell a spec). It probably will, as boski says, get them doing indie stuff however.

And I realize that is making a generalization, but I don't see how it's offensive. You're telling me that most women love and would write "Ocean's 11" or "The Fast and The Furious?" I doubt it. Yet these movies, and many like them, are very marketable (although not all of them sell) and that's what people look for with specs.

If you can write a script like the one Deus recently sold then that's awesome and you'll fair well as a female screenwriter, but what women enjoy (and yes I'm generalizing this) is usually not what sells. If movies were all geared towards women and they didn't put out movies like "The Departed" then they would probably do far better, but that's just not the way it is...

DMNY
10-31-2006, 07:50 PM
DMNY, step back and have a laugh. A little humor is salt for a good thread.
Are you kidding? The last time I've stepped back I ended up...nevermind. :p
Don't derail from the subject is all I ask.

ihavebiglips
10-31-2006, 07:51 PM
Anyone ever see any of Maya Deren's old experimental films?

Boski, ignore this post. ;)

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if James L. Brooks is secretly a women. And I mean that as a compliment to his writing.

sc111
10-31-2006, 07:52 PM
Deus just broke in with something called ARMORED. Can you imagine any of the women around here writing that? :)


See? You can't imagine it. You have been influenced by the stereotypes which keep women pigeon-holed as only "good" for writing certain types of films.

How about a little throw down over in the exercise section of Done Deal. Women against men: 5 pages of an action script. In fact - we can all agree on one concept then write the opening for the same idea.

Deadline: Saturday.

Any takers?

ihavebiglips
10-31-2006, 07:53 PM
See? You can't imagine it. You have been influenced by the stereotypes which keep women pigeon-holed as only "good" for writing certain types of films.

How about a little throw down over in the exercise section of Done Deal. Women against men: 5 pages of an action script. I fact - we can all agree on one concept then write the opening for the same idea.

Deadline: Saturday.

Any takers?

It wouldn't be fair to exclude hermaphrodites.

sc111
10-31-2006, 07:54 PM
It wouldn't be fair to exclude hermaphrodites.

So .. that means you're out? ;)

ihavebiglips
10-31-2006, 07:56 PM
So .. that means you're out? ;)

Yes. I'm still in mourning over my piss porn Halloween short. I'm going to go sing a dirge, I'll be back. :o

sc111
10-31-2006, 07:58 PM
Yes. I'm still in mourning over my piss porn Halloween short. I'm going to go sing a dirge, I'll be back. :o

I didn't read the halloween shorts - I confess. I need to catch up.

Okay - Crusty is in.

Boski?

DMNY
10-31-2006, 08:01 PM
So .. that means you're out? ;)
:rolling:

Yes. I'm still in mourning over my piss porn Halloween short. I'm going to go sing a dirge, I'll be back. :o

AND

Ouch!! :eek:

Sara, I think that's the single best Boski-bash I've ever received.

I'm still reeling as I type...

Far better than anything I've received at the hands of any male around here, if memory serves.

Good work, girl...

But I hope you'll at least give me co-writer credit on that.

Either way, I'm humbled.

Taking it like good guys, kudos on that.

I think we ran out of stereotypes.

Is this thread officially over?
;) I hope it can turn into something more positive than stereotypes.

JayKid
10-31-2006, 08:01 PM
See? You can't imagine it. You have been influenced by the stereotypes which keep women pigeon-holed as only "good" for writing certain types of films.

How about a little throw down over in the exercise section of Done Deal. Women against men: 5 pages of an action script. In fact - we can all agree on one concept then write the opening for the same idea.

Deadline: Saturday.

Any takers?

Well, I'm not up to the contest, but I will say one thing about the stereotyping...

It's not that far from the truth regarding the people in my life. Nine times out of ten most of the women I know would never want to see a movie like "Armored", I'm not sure why, but they just don't enjoy those types of films (those types as in plot-driven action films). Now it's a bit of a jump to make to then say that they won't write them, but it's not some crazy leap, is it? People write what they know and enjoy. I am a fan of comedy, I write comedy (or have been attempting too). I wouldn't write sci fi because I don't know it well enough and the movies don't appeal to me as much as other genres.

So if a majority of women (the ones I know) aren't going out to see the type of films most coin as "marketable" then it's not a stretch to say they also won't be writing them either.

It's obviously not always true and IS a generalization, but what do you expect? Everything said here will be a generalization... I just hope people don't take it the wrong way.

*edit* one last thing - just so you guys know, I am generalizing and stereotyping males as well here. So don't think I'm singling women out. Just because I feel men are more geared towards writings these more "character thin" (thnik that's what sc said) scripts that seem to be more marketable in towards world doesn't mean that they are better or something. Women are just talented in different genres. Sure, all genders can write in all genres, but I think it's safe to say that certain genders do in fact lean towards some things (that's what leads to the stereotypes!).

sarajb
10-31-2006, 08:03 PM
Ouch!! :eek:

Sara, I think that's the single best Boski-bash I've ever received.

I'm still reeling as I type...

Far better than anything I've received at the hands of any male around here, if memory serves.

Good work, girl...

But I hope you'll at least give me co-writer credit on that.

Either way, I'm humbled.
Stop, you're making me blush. I'm also sure you're quite a compentent writer, boski. I was just messing.

Look, I realize there are some very real differences between men and women, but many more are just in our heads.

DMNY
10-31-2006, 08:03 PM
I missed you too Sara :o

Alyssa Runswithwolves
10-31-2006, 08:04 PM
Oof! Wiiicked thread.

sc111
10-31-2006, 08:05 PM
Well ... Jaykid is also out. Hmmm. Any women up to the experiment?

It's not going to be very revealing unless we have a wider sampling of both genders. Wider than one guy & one girl.

ihavebiglips
10-31-2006, 08:11 PM
Well ... Jaykid is also out. Hmmm. Any women up to the experiment?

It's not going to be very revealing unless we have a wider sampling of both genders. Wider than one guy & one girl.

I want to see a friendly competition go down. I'm in if you get more women. And I'm not into action, unless you mean 4 AM on a Saturday night, so this will probably work to prove your point. :D

JayKid
10-31-2006, 08:14 PM
Well, if I find the free time (have a bunch of schoolwork and work work to do, as well as go to a few events I promised my friends I'd go to) I'll definitely try to pull something out. I doubt it'll be any good though... and not because it'll be rushed, but because of my talent, haha.

And do you want a short like beginning, middle, end? Or just like an opening type thing that might finish with a cliffhanger...

Still no promises that I'll get anything though, not a good week for me. I should be writing my midterm research paper right now... but look at me... I'm on DD postig up a storm, ahhh!

JayKid
10-31-2006, 08:15 PM
I want to see a friendly competition go down. I'm in if you get more women. And I'm not into action, unless you mean 4 AM on a Saturday night, so this will probably work to prove your point. :D

That's the best type of action...

sc111
10-31-2006, 08:16 PM
Well now we hve 2 maybe 3 guys.

Ladies - don't leave a sister hanging like this!

I mean - me and 3 guys? :|

amandag
10-31-2006, 08:17 PM
I'm in. Action only? What about thriller?

Either way, I'm in.

nic.h
10-31-2006, 08:18 PM
I don't watch action films or read action scripts (much) so I honestly don't think I could write one that would, well, befit my gender. Seems to be too much resting on it, given the boundaries imposed.

The stereotypes purported here which bother me are less about what men/women like, than what men/women can do. That's the kind of talk that worries me.

I wouldn't try to write in any genre that I'm not familiar with. Not without doing a lot of reading and research first. But even choosing a gender write-off for a "chick flick" would lose me. I don't watch many rom/coms either nowadays, so although that should fit my gender stereotype, I doubt I'd be much good at them either.

I will say this though - I think if I WANTED to write in a new genre, I'm pretty confident I'd make a good showing of it. Maybe that's where this male/female divide lies - less about what we can do and more about what we WANT to do.

But know one thing: the moment the world settles on a rule defining women and what we can do, there's always some amazingly talented, inspirational and indefatigueable woman who breaks all barriers and boundaries despite a world telling her she's wrong.

That's my propaganda for the day.

ihavebiglips
10-31-2006, 08:18 PM
Well now we hve 2 maybe 3 guys.

Ladies - don't leave a sister hanging like this!

I mean - me and 3 guys? :|

That's not your idea of good 4 AM on a Saturday is it? :|

Just kiddin'!

ihavebiglips
10-31-2006, 08:19 PM
I'm in. Action only? What about thriller?

Either way, I'm in.

****, fellas. We're toast. The Antichrist is involved.

DMNY
10-31-2006, 08:20 PM
****, fellas. We're toast.
I told you...I'M NOT A FRACKING CYLON....











oh wait...wrong thread. My bad, carry on.:o

sc111
10-31-2006, 08:20 PM
Amanda - cool. Sure - write thriller and throw in a car chase - that would push it into the action genre. ;)

Edited because I got two posts mixed up.

Nic - aw, come on, give it a shot.

amandag
10-31-2006, 08:23 PM
****, fellas. We're toast. The Antichrist is involved.

You still flatter me, BL.

Now I have to go torch a non-smoking activist.

(BTW, I love Maya Deren. She reminds me of a filmic Kate Bush)

Amanda - cool. Sure - write thriller and throw in a car chase - that would push it into the action genre.

Sounds good, Sc111 :) This'll be delicious fun.

JayKid
10-31-2006, 08:27 PM
I don't watch action films or read action scripts (much) so I honestly don't think I could write one that would, well, befit my gender. Seems to be too much resting on it, given the boundaries imposed.

The stereotypes purported here which bother me are less about what men/women like, than what men/women can do. That's the kind of talk that worries me.

I wouldn't try to write in any genre that I'm not familiar with. Not without doing a lot of reading and research first. But even choosing a gender write-off for a "chick flick" would lose me. I don't watch many rom/coms either nowadays, so although that should fit my gender stereotype, I doubt I'd be much good at them either.

I will say this though - I think if I WANTED to write in a new genre, I'm pretty confident I'd make a good showing of it. Maybe that's where this male/female divide lies - less about what we can do and more about what we WANT to do.

But know one thing: the moment the world settles on a rule defining women and what we can do, there's always some amazingly talented, inspirational and indefatigueable woman who breaks all barriers and boundaries despite a world telling her she's wrong.

That's my propaganda for the day.

I feel liek I'm the only one still trying to stay on topic here... lol.

Anyway, I hope I wasn't one of the people who said women can't write in other genres because that's not what I meant (not about to read through my posts to see). You are 100% correct that it's about what they WANT to do and most women don't want to do what is marketable because what is marketable happens to be more male oriented. It's a matter of the personalities of most women... they just aren't the same as men and that's a fact.

And is it bad that they don't chose to write what might be more marketable? Well, that's for women to decide...

sarajb
10-31-2006, 08:31 PM
I missed you too Sara :o
Awww, thanks, D. :D

Sc, I still haven't recovered from the stand-up comedy throw down in one on one months and months ago. :|

But, I'll give it some thought, because it sounds like fun.

sarajb
10-31-2006, 08:36 PM
Post number three. Thank you. Thank you very much.

JayKid
10-31-2006, 08:38 PM
How can more women sell spec scripts?

Spend more time writing and less time identifying themselves as women writers, counting the number of women writers, studying the percentages of women writers, quoting studies about women writers.......

Ha... so true, focusing on it just makes it worse. If no one cared to think about this then it wouldn't cross peoples mind and women would probably be better off.

That isn't gonna happen anytime soon though. At least I doubt it... everyone loves talking about problems.

ihavebiglips
10-31-2006, 08:40 PM
Ignoring a problem isn't the most productive way to deal with it. Though, I admit... nothing good will come out of this thread, including my action short.

nic.h
10-31-2006, 08:43 PM
I'd like to, really. Kind of. Not sure it will do anything but reinforce everyone's particular bias.

But, regardless, I have a deadline for my producer, a deadline for my thesis, and a deadline for my novel - all in the next fortnight. Plus I have to present a paper to my supervisors at the end of the month which I have to pass if I want to continue my doctorate.

Did I mention I have two kids? (Only one of them is old enough to go to school.)

Hmmm. Maybe that's why women don't write as many screenplays.:)

sarajb
10-31-2006, 08:50 PM
You're not completely off the hook:Here's the link sc found in the old thread, bellabell:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/la/?id=110007453

And, in the article it also says women represent 18% of working screenwriters. I somehow missed that the first time.
But wait!
While itís interesting and even fun to speculate why, what comes out is good for little more than conversation, because few of us can be so easily categorized and broadly referenced. I would hope the stereotypes discussed here arenít really seen as believed assumptions used to navigate the individuals we meet. That would be sad.

ihavebiglips
10-31-2006, 09:44 PM
I'm bored at work, so I already went ahead and started a thread for an action challenge and posted a short. Yes, I was bored and felt like writing something vs debating. I didn't post rules or anything.

The point is, in the immortal words of Marvin Gaye, Let's Get it On.

Whatever. Carry on.

georgelondon
10-31-2006, 09:51 PM
Ha... so true, focusing on it just makes it worse. If no one cared to think about this then it wouldn't cross peoples mind and women would probably be better off.

I don't care.

I love being a woman. But I also love/am obsessed with crime, sex, violence. I love money, I love goals. I love my work. I've never written a 'woman's film' and I don't intend to start now. If I looked at the odds I may never write another word; all you can do is work hard and play it, realise it's not just 'art' but it's business and get there.

ihavebiglips
10-31-2006, 09:58 PM
I don't care.

I love being a woman. But I also love/am obsessed with crime, sex, violence. I love money, I love goals. I love my work. I've never written a 'woman's film' and I don't intend to start now. If I looked at the odds I may never write another word; all you can do is work hard and play it, realise it's not just 'art' but it's business and get there.

If any of us look at the odds we'd never write another word... man, woman, or hermaphrodite.

PS - I agree with you, I just jump at any chance to write hermaphrodite. See, I did it again.

magicghost2977
10-31-2006, 10:32 PM
I haven't read the entire thread, but in response to the question...

undress...

slowly...

Qazworld
10-31-2006, 11:22 PM
writerly, why do you hate men?

Qazworld
10-31-2006, 11:43 PM
FU!

I have NEVER been accused of that in my life, ever. Trust me. Trust me, trust me, I am not that kind of girl. And i don't really like what you're implying... because I'm sure that DD is big enough for all types of writers, and women (including the type that swing the other way). I love men! Certain men, of course, most especially the one I'm married to!!! But really, one shouldn't be called out since whatever one's lifestyle choice is, I support.

Really Qaz, just because your a closet misogynist (ok, maybe not so closet) is no reason to attack me.

Unless you were joking, in which case, xxxooo.
--w



too easy. :whistle:

Pull Back Reveal
10-31-2006, 11:49 PM
About the only sort of generalization I think that sticks is that *most* (not all, but most) women do not like horror.

That would be news to studios. The target audience for horror is teenage girls. Probably more so for The Ring, Grudge, Silent Hill, The Eyeand their -- ahem -- brethren than Saw and Hostel, but ask anyone in a studio marketing position and you'll hear contemporary horror is aimed at young women with hopes they'll bring their boyfriends along.

And rom coms? From Billy Wilder and Preston Sturges to Woody Allen and John Patrick Shanley, through Pretty Woman, Something About Mary into last year's Wedding Crashers and 40-Year-Old Virgin, where did this assumption arise that rom coms are somehow a woman's domain? Nora Ephron may be the exception to the rule, but she's really only written a handful.

Lot of groundless assumptions flying around here.

As to the rest of this thread ... you all do realize that slight differences across huge populations (spatial thinking, linguistic skills) say nothing useful about any individual member of those populations, right? That sort of reductive thinking leads to oafish and dangerous assumptions.

This is an economics question about gatekeepers and division of wealth. That's a discussion we should all have.

Alyssa Runswithwolves
11-01-2006, 12:43 AM
Gauchita -

Meanwhile, pot-bellied guys strut into a room acting like they're a gift to womankind.

Let's return that "gift" and get our refund dammit!

ihavebiglips
11-01-2006, 01:09 AM
Let's return that "gift" and get our refund dammit!

As a pot-bellied gift from God, this was the only point made in the entire thread that I actually found offensive.

I'm going to go play my pan pipes now... screw you folks.

Harbinger
11-01-2006, 06:40 AM
Uhhh hey...ummm ...I hear this is the thread to pick up Chicks up for a bit of action.

.....................what?...........ahhhh I see........uhhhh.......

*Whistles*

.........this is a little awkward.

.......Can you smell gas?

DMNY
11-01-2006, 07:15 AM
That's funny, DMNY.

I knew you had a sense of humor.
Oh, you know it's quite easy when I look at Boomer. She rocks. I want to be assimilated...And there again is where I slap my forehead and apologize to both Trekkies and BSG fans alike. Now, if they could bring Seven of Nine and Boomer together. My science fiction craving would know no end.





Back to regular programming and back to you, ladies...and gents. :D

Charli
11-01-2006, 07:46 AM
I'm in, however, I want to make sure the shorts are "original" for this
contest. I don't want someone pulling a short off a shelf and putting this
in for the contest.

We should all have one prop, something unusual, that's used as a weapon,
like a flashlight, hey, I'm just throwing it out there, and the same name
for our protag, which can be used for either gender, like Dana or Leslie.

Well, I'm in if we can set up some parameters. That's two gals, sc111.

Charli

sc111
11-01-2006, 08:01 AM
How can more women sell spec scripts?

Spend more time writing and less time identifying themselves as women writers, counting the number of women writers, studying the percentages of women writers, quoting studies about women writers.......

Actually, I agree. If I had really considered the odds against me I would have gone back to novel writing.

When I first came on Done Deal and introduced myself - a total newbie trying my hand at screenwriting for the first time - I was told by many posters my being female, older and not in LA, all guaranteed I would fail at this.

It's four years later, I've had modest moves forward in terms of getting representation and studio reads, yet at least once a year there's a thread discussing how women writers "can't" write this or that.

I always respond for the lurking females - especially the young ones.

Females are told in so many ways, overtly and covertly, we "can't" do this or that. You don't see it, feel it, because you're not female.

Just as I can't fully claim to understand how subtle prejudices impact Black Americans, Asian Americans, Hispanic Americans, and other ethnic minorities. A man, Caucasian specifically, can't fully understand the societal undercurrents which work against women who have aspirations to succeed in male dominated fields.

I'm not advising women to become militant about it - just the opposite, that's why I used humor in my original post.

But ignoring the existance of this reality - especially in the film industry - is also not advisable.

We have to know what we're dealing with, we have to have a strategy, and we have to be exceedingly good at what we do - so good that no one can deny the money-making potential of our work - in order to overcome the odds.

I'm sorry if it irks you when women discuss this. But I won't remain silent when I hear comments like -- a woman is incapable of developing a concept for an action film.

Silence constitutes agreement.

sc111
11-01-2006, 08:04 AM
I'm in, however, I want to make sure the shorts are "original" for this
contest. I don't want someone pulling a short off a shelf and putting this
in for the contest.

We should all have one prop, something unusual, that's used as a weapon,
like a flashlight, hey, I'm just throwing it out there, and the same name
for our protag, which can be used for either gender, like Dana or Leslie.

Well, I'm in if we can set up some parameters. That's two gals, sc111.

Charli

Thanks Charli - I was hoping you'd sign on, since this is your genre.

I believe we have at least four women now.

I wasn't planning to write a short, specifically. I was thinking of a five-page opening for a feature. But shorts are cool too.

We're looking for writing ability in the action genre.

----------------

And thank you Big Lips for posting yours and getting us rolling.

amandag
11-01-2006, 08:27 AM
Yes, as mentioned below, I believe BL should get some extra credit for his hemaphroditically quick finishing skills. Best of both worlds, I tell you.

sc111
11-01-2006, 10:08 AM
Best -

A lot of those differences are learned behavior, reinforced by our society and the media.

Recent studies show pre-teen and teen girls have fantasies of wielding aggressive power and being the "winner" as often as boys do. (I believe the details are in a book by Naomi Wolfe, I'll check another time).

Even more important - the great shift in these study results have led some researchers to believe older studies - which concluded women were naturally less aggressive and more 'consensus' oriented -- garnered skewed results because young women (and men) were responding in ways they believed were expected.

In my opinion - men are a lot more compassionate and sensitive than the general American stereotype, yet they're often conditioned to be "tough."

And women are not genetically "nicer" than men, they too have been conditioned. I think we all average out somewhere in the middle.

For this reason - many men have written very sensitive and compelling romance/dramas. And women are equally able to write action or sci-fi - if given the chance.

JayKid
11-01-2006, 10:10 AM
To sc...

Regardless of whether it's biological or cultural, does it really matter? There still is a difference and although it might not be as drastic as society has made it, it's still there. It's that difference that I believe is one of the reasons why there are more male screenwriters.

To writerly...

Am I offending you or something? I don't get why you need to resort to name-calling when I never once did that to you. Come on, please be more mature, I don't want to read that I'm "not worth responding to", if you feel I'm that much a moron then put me in my place with an actual argument. I DIDN'T say (and even made it clear in one of my replies what I intended) women CAN'T write male-oriented scripts, I said they don't want to. And, yes, I'm generalizing, but generalizing is MUCH different than what you are accusing me of saying. Women ARE different than men (and as I pointed out above to sc it could be biological or cultural, I say it's a mixture, but there obviously is no concrete answer) and that's why they tend to write different things. You write what you know, correct? Or at least most do, so if the majority of women are indeed different, then why wouldn't they write different? I'm not saying everyone women wants to and does write character-driven indie films, but women have different sensibilites than men and enjoy different things. Their writing will reflect these differeneces.

Maybe the differences are shrinking (whether that means women are going closer or further away from their biological tendencies I don't know), but they still are there.

And as Best pointed out, what is the majority of viewers that make up Oprah? Definitely women.

The same goes for 7th Heaven, Gilmore Girls, Queer Eye, Trading Space and whatever else.

How about American Choppers? Mythbusters? Adult Swim? Probably males...

There is a difference and you can't just ignore it. If men and women were both 50/50 in the screenwriting business than it wouldn't be a problem, but they aren't 50/50. There are more males, why? Well, I'm just throwing something out there...

I personally feel that because men will (on average) write male-oriented scripts and vice versa for women, then that will obviously mean less women will get sold if movies nowadays are marketed more towards males. That could be the problem... too many movies are made geared towards males and not enough towards females and the ones geared towards females. I'm not up on marketing statistics, so this is the big assumption, but I'm just putting something out there.

Then again it could be the business aspect people were talking about, although I tend to doubt that more than what I proposed above.

Lastly, maybe HW just discriminates, but I hope that isn't true. Who knows though...

Anyway, writerly, please don't belittle me like that, it's offensive.

sc111
11-01-2006, 10:44 AM
Boski - let me jog your memory:



Deus just broke in with something called ARMORED. Can you imagine any of the women around here writing that? :)

This more than implies a woman could not come up with such a concept.

Boobsie Malone
11-01-2006, 10:48 AM
And as Best pointed out, what is the majority of viewers that make up Oprah? Definitely women.

The same goes for 7th Heaven, Gilmore Girls, Queer Eye, Trading Space and whatever else.

How about American Choppers? Mythbusters? Adult Swim? Probably males...


I can't speak for the masses...

I HATE Oprah. I hate 7th Heaven. I hate Gilmore Girls. I used to like Queer Eye till it got all sappy, I can tolerate Trading Spaces, but only the English version.

I heart American Choppers, adore Mythbusters and chuckle a lot at Adult Swim.

My script topics have ranged from serial killers to prison rapes to brutal murders. I'd much prefer to see a hard core horror flick than a sappy romantic comedy. My reading veers toward serial killers, horror, hard boiled mysteries and comic books than the Harlequin. My TV preferences of late have been Dexter, The Shield and Heroes over the above allegedly female choices.

But, then, I'm just one chick.

sarajb
11-01-2006, 10:52 AM
I don't understand where the bleakness for women in screenwriting is coming from. I realize when you hear women only represent 18% of working screenwriters it could be construed as blatant discrimination or lack of sensibilities, but knowing they only represent 25% of those trying to begin with, neither holds much water, imo.

Boobsie Malone
11-01-2006, 11:00 AM
Sara,

I'm really not all "women aren't getting enough work!" Until I see the writers of various tv shows interviewed (usually the bonus stuff on DVDs). Seeing how white and male-oriented these rooms are make me want to work harder to get into that room. It's interesting watching the featurettes, even the non-white folks are pretty frickin' white. It's at these moments that I kinda get all girl-power-y. In general, though, I'm all for the most talented people breaking in. Not groups, necessarily, breaking in. However, I do wonder, are white males more talented than everyone? That would seem to be the case when watching these featurettes (I'm not actually saying that's the case, I'm just saying it seems to be).

So, I'm all for diversifying a room. And being that I represent the 7%, I'm all for being in the 18% camp. But, that's me wanting to succeed (not as a diverse woman, but because I'm a person who's been working hard to succeed).

sc111
11-01-2006, 11:06 AM
Like Boobise - I watch American Chopper - the creativity amazes me.

Oprah gets on my nerves - and if you look at her audience demo you'll see it's large in numbers but it's very narrow in terms of "types" of women it appeals to.

I have never watched 7th Heaven, Gilmore Girls nor Desperate Housewives. And I think one would be surprised at how many guys watch those "girl" shows.

I loved Kill Bill and the fact that the protag was female was the reason I loved it. Tarantino tapped into female rage with that film - and he was right. It exists. In spades.

Jaykid - perhaps you're misunderstanding my point. I admit my original post may have been too subtle in my attempt at dry humor.

Yes - women often write character-driven, talky Indie type scripts (so do many men).

But women are NOT incapable of writing action-oriented scripts. A number of the guys replying in this thread more than imply a woman's sensibilities bars her from concepting action stories and/or executing them.

Scroll back - many of Hollywood's early westerns and war movies - films that established genres - were written by women.

JayKid
11-01-2006, 11:15 AM
I can't speak for the masses...

I HATE Oprah. I hate 7th Heaven. I hate Gilmore Girls. I used to like Queer Eye till it got all sappy, I can tolerate Trading Spaces, but only the English version.

I heart American Choppers, adore Mythbusters and chuckle a lot at Adult Swim.

My script topics have ranged from serial killers to prison rapes to brutal murders. I'd much prefer to see a hard core horror flick than a sappy romantic comedy. My reading veers toward serial killers, horror, hard boiled mysteries and comic books than the Harlequin. My TV preferences of late have been Dexter, The Shield and Heroes over the above allegedly female choices.

But, then, I'm just one chick.

Well, as you said, you are just one chick. And that's great that you are into that type of thing, but I'm pretty confident that if anyone were to look at some statistics about what gender watches those shows, you'd be in the minority. You might hate those female-oriented shows, but they are popular and someone watches them and it's mainly women. Why? I don't know. It could be biological or cultural (I think both), but there is a different in taste among different genders.

Maybe it's because of society. Maybe it's because of the issue of men thinking a different way (I have heard more than once that men are better at math/science and that type of logic then women are--on average). Either way, they have different tastes and that isn't some meaningless statement. If it is in fact true (even slightly) it'll make a big difference in what and how women write which could be a cause for why there aren't as many of 'em screenwriting.

Again, I'm not trying to say women can't be screenwriters and can't write or think like men or enjoy the things men enjoy... I'm just saying many of them don't. It's not an offensive generalization because I'm simply saying they are different and not in a one is better than the other way. Hell, most women are far better listeners than me (and most guys I know). If you want me to help you with a problem, I'm not going to want to listen to you whine about it, I'm going to give you my advice and that's that. That's different than how women I know handle those type of situations. They won't even offer their advice... they'll sit and listen and what not first. Obviously something is different. Whether one way is better than theother I don't know (although I feel women are better at that), but it's obvious we are DIFFERENT.

It's hard to dispute that there are differences... but when I say that I don't mean it's true 100% of the time, because there are plenty of women who cross the stereotype boundaries--as do men.

Boobsie Malone
11-01-2006, 11:16 AM
I think Sara answered the original question. There is a 7% difference between the working female writers v. the trying-to-be-working female writers.

Question: How can more women sell spec scripts?

Answer: More women have to want to.

sarajb
11-01-2006, 11:18 AM
I hear you, Boobsie. I'm not in any way saying there's NO discrimination or NO gender strengths, just that the numbers show the gap is not this insurmountable chasm that some would have people believe (though moreso in tv it seems, unfortunately).

And, there's only so much that can be done about the perceptions of others, anyway. I find in any arena I do best when I don't fixate on being female or short or a former cheerleader or a former basketball player (for theradic alone :D) or however many other constricting/conflicting labels I can put on and just be me.

EDIT: Yes. Thanks, Boobsie. Much clearer than my multiple attempts. :)

Boobsie Malone
11-01-2006, 11:19 AM
Well, as you said, you are just one chick. And that's great that you are into that type of thing...

Why is it great that I'm into that type of thing?

JayKid
11-01-2006, 11:23 AM
^And why don't women want to?

Maybe because it doesn't appeal to their personalities? I'm just throwing stuff out there...

I've made this example in a previous post, but I'll say it again:

Most women enjoy talking for the sake of talking. Actually, that isn't really right, it's that talking and listening and hearing more helps them get connected with the other person. However, most men just want to solve whatever the issue is quickly and don't want to be bothered just talking.

I feel like this could be used to explain the difference between a novel and a screenplay. Screenplays are quick and to the point... novels aren't. So maybe novels give women a chance to get out everything they want to say? I'm just taking a guess here, who knows if I'm right (probably not). But you are definitely right that more women do need to just start screenwriting to up the numbers.

And sc...

I'm sorry if I've ever implied that women can't do that, I just think movies that are geared towards men will more often be written by men (write what you know) and vice versa. It doesn't mean men can't write more female-based stuff and vice versa. I'm just making a generalization to try to get at some type of reason.

JayKid
11-01-2006, 11:24 AM
Why is it great that I'm into that type of thing?

I dunno, I'm just being positive, lol. I don't really care one way or the other. You can like those movies or dramas or whatever... that was just sorta a phrase that kinda rolled off.

sc111
11-01-2006, 11:30 AM
My point was that ARMORED sounds a lot like the kind of high-concept, commercial story that male writers are better (or at least certainly more prolific) at producing than female writers.

I'm sure there are female writers who can produce high-concept, commercial stuff; I just believe that they're greatly outnumbered by male writers who can do the same.

How do you KNOW they're outnumbered if you're looking at a white male-dominated industry famous for its lack of minorities?

By your logic - the fact that fewer African-American males sell specs than Caucasin males means that Caucasian males are better at developing commercial concepts.

You're looking at an industry that is clearly a white boys' club, much like politics. White guys networking with white guys in white guy social circles, plus a good dose of white-guy nepotism. And you're extrapolating facts about women writers within the myopia created by this vacuum.

Yet even the political arena is moving toward multiculturalism faster than Hollywood. Which is really amazing if you think about it. Because there's more at stake than BO numbers.

Could it be that FEWER women writers attempt screenwriting because when they consider the above then choose a path to success with less resistance.

Could it be that women who make up the 25% of those registering scripts with the WGA are, along with the women of Done Deal, simply too stubborn to give up?

Look at the male responses in this thread - if execs hold even a fraction of the misconceptions about women as you guys do, is it any wonder fewer women sell specs or get writing gigs?

And may I mention - if dumping 100s-of-millions into films catering to the sensibilities of white guys between the ages of 15 & 25 is so commercailly savvy - why are box office numbers stagnating?

My opinion - execs are too frightened to change their business model to explore the possibility that there are huge untapped markets out there, in every genre. And women could well have the key to unlock them.

Boobsie Malone
11-01-2006, 11:32 AM
I've made this example in a previous post, but I'll say it again:

Most women enjoy talking for the sake of talking.

I know I'm just taking a portion of the quote, and you backpedalled quite nicely. But, I'm thinking -- maybe -- you shouldn't try to guess why more women don't write.

:)

Sara -- Don't worry about it. You're obviously just a chick, talking for the sake of talking... ;)

deadeye
11-01-2006, 11:34 AM
Writers like Jane Espenson, (Buffy, Firefly etc) are probably scratching their heads in wonder right now.

sarajb
11-01-2006, 11:35 AM
Sara -- Don't worry about it. You're obviously just a chick, talking for the sake of talking...
LOL! I do go on. I do go on.

Adam Isaac
11-01-2006, 11:45 AM
If I ever collaborated with anyone on a script, I would look for a female writer. Getting that different perspective on things is essential, I think. It would have to be a woman.

I think it's ashamed that more women don't get the same opportunities that men do. Women are-by nature-are smarter than men, and women have proven throughout history that they can write as good as men--sometimes even better.

Sexual discrimination is another limit on the creative conscious. I hate limits....

Boobsie Malone
11-01-2006, 11:47 AM
The bleak reality of screenwriting, for any person:

1. You're probably not going to sell. Especially you.

2. If you do sell, land an assignment, land on staff, whatever, you have to have the stomach for the business, and the cojones to continue to get jobs.

3. Which means, you have to deal well with notes.

4. You have to deal well with the hours (need a page one rewrite in a weekend otherwise the project isn't greenlit, you have to do a page one rewrite... (a la Joss Whedon/Tim Minear for Firefly)).

5. You have to deal well with rejection. Because you will get rejected. A lot. Especially you.

6. You have to network. Not in cloying, I want something out of you way, but in a buddies kind of way.

Thing is, in my first screenwriting class (in film school), I was told all of this. I already knew that I had no desire to be a screenwriter, I wanted to be a director. This confirmed it. Years later I found out real people wrote for TV (not really sure who I thought wrote for TV, but, yeah), I knew that's what I wanted to do. I'm stubborn, bullish, and always willing to learn.

Even if I had the "female sensibility" if I decided I wanted to write romantic comedies, I would be writing those, and working my ass off in doing so. Some people aren't willing to do this. You have to fight hard to get there and fight even harder to stay there.

Of the people in that first screenwriting class, no one's made it so far. And, at the time, there were only 2 women in that class, myself included.

I don't think that women are scared of doing any of this. In fact, if we're going to make sweeping generalizations about women, I'd venture to say that most women are a lot more dogged and determined than our male counterparts. I also think that the women who toy with the idea of becoming a screenwriter and decide against it are the smart ones.

amandag
11-01-2006, 11:50 AM
Mine's up.

Now I must stop procrastinating.

Boobsie Malone
11-01-2006, 11:51 AM
Adam, if I ever collaborated on a script, it'd be with you. I love your film noir ways. And, you bake a beautiful cake. Well, you find beautiful pictures of cakes on the internet.

Sara, don't we all?

sc111
11-01-2006, 11:51 AM
I also think that the women who toy with the idea of becoming a screenwriter and decide against it are the smart ones.

I've thought the same, many a time.

Adam Isaac
11-01-2006, 11:56 AM
Adam, if I ever collaborated on a script, it'd be with you. I love your film noir ways. And, you bake a beautiful cake. Well, you find beautiful pictures of cakes on the internet.

Sara, don't we all?

Thank you for saying that, Boobsie.:)

Yeah, I think we share a common tendency towards darkness. I like it better in the dark anyway.

deadeye
11-01-2006, 11:57 AM
I also think that the women who toy with the idea of becoming a screenwriter and decide against it are the smart ones.

Much like their male counterparts.

The whole male/female argument is a false trail.

''Will it get an audience'' is the only thing on the minds of those who might buy your script.

There may be genres that are largely male dominated. But that is more to do with the male psyche having a propensity to write that rather than females wanting to but not getting a chance. It's a numbers game. More males than females are attracted to write that genre. l

Do you think distributors give a good goddam whether SAW 3 was written by a man or a woman?

No they don't. Much like the audience, a good number of whom still believe that the actors and director make it up as they go along.

One of the good things about being a writer is that the money people don't care if you are male, female or Martian.

sarajb
11-01-2006, 11:57 AM
I've thought the same, many a time. I also think that the women who toy with the idea of becoming a screenwriter and decide against it are the smart ones.
So, we're the dumb ones, then. :|

Okay! :bounce:

/insert Melody laugh

lol.
Sara, don't we all?
This is what I'm told.

Boobsie Malone
11-01-2006, 12:00 PM
Writers like Jane Espenson, (Buffy, Firefly etc) are probably scratching their heads in wonder right now.

Doubtful that she reads this board. But, she's a great example. She's definitely a girl-y girl. At the same time, she's one hell of a writer. Almost O Henry in her sensibilities, an amazing ability to turn any story on its head, and leave the viewer/reader wondering how they got blindsided. She's incredibly respected by her peers, and though she prefers comedy and scifi, I contend that her best effort was an episode of The Inside. Though, she wrote a great ep of Firefly. And some awesome eps of Angel and Buffy. That ep of The Inside confirmed what I already knew, she is an incredible writer. Perhaps one of the best of our time right now.

Adam Isaac
11-01-2006, 12:02 PM
I've thought the same, many a time.

You were a novelist before you became a screenwriter weren't you, sc?

Can't remember if you were or not.

I would think female novelists probably out-number the men in that end of the writing World. Maybe not.

Boobsie Malone
11-01-2006, 12:09 PM
This is what I'm told.

So, you listened well, like all women do? Yeah, we're the dumb ones. Woo hoo!

deadeye, I agree that "will the audience get it" is a huge proponent of the mentality. But, there's also the mentality that if they don't like the person they won't work with the person, ergo, they won't buy their script. Be it that the person is female, the person is of a different race, or has an awful personality.

Adam, choo rocketh. Also, I believe someone in another [similar] thread pointed out that women rule the novel world.

sc111
11-01-2006, 12:11 PM
So, we're the dumb ones, then. :|

Okay! :bounce:

/insert Melody laugh

lol.



Maybe not dumb but - sometimes - not being single-minded about something in spite of incredible odds could be the more logical, safer choice.

When I get notes back on my female protags that they're not "believable" because they're afraid of marriage. Or, they won't be sympathetic if they're too edgy. Or, that my male charcters are "too nice to be true" I do think I may do well to switch back to novels.

These are execs (both male and female) who assert that characters must adhere to certain stereotype behavior in a "commercial" film.

I know why they want this - because stereotypes appeal to the widest market.

But with my advertising background, I've also learned over the years that focus groups are unreliable and a non-stereotype concept often breaks through the media clutter of "me-too" ideas revealing a hidden market.

Of course, with advertising you can lower the risk of losing large gobs of cash by testing a concept in a small market first. Because media placement always costs more than production.

One cannot do that with a film.

sc111
11-01-2006, 12:21 PM
You were a novelist before you became a screenwriter weren't you, sc?

Can't remember if you were or not.

I would think female novelists probably out-number the men in that end of the writing World. Maybe not.


Yes, I did start with novels - but I never finished them. Then I let marriage, kids, etc, distract me from my fiction writing.

I struggled with the "not good enough" syndrome. I appeased myself by saying "Well, at least you earn a living writing (ads)."

I went through all sorts of denials, excuses, pretzel logic exercises - all designed to keep me from writing for "good" reasons. And I wasted about 20+ years dating back to age 18-19.

Then I got divorced. And my ex had to pull some boxes out of the attic to get to his stuff before he moved out.

One of those boxes contained my poems, short stories, chapters of novels - some dating back to age 12 and 13. And I looked at a folder from my creative writing classes in college and read the work of 18 year old Sc111.

Jeeze - the kid was good. Really good. Teachers agreed - I Aced those classes. So I decided to finally stop sabotaging her and give her a chance.

I advise all young women to do the same for themselves. Now.

Charli
11-01-2006, 12:29 PM
Uh, I like Oprah, and Gilrmore Girls. I got my son hooked on GG, then again,
when he was little, he watched, "Remember When."

Is Billy Jean King around the corner somewhere?

deadeye
11-01-2006, 12:33 PM
deadeye, I agree that "will the audience get it" is a huge proponent of the mentality. But, there's also the mentality that if they don't like the person they won't work with the person, ergo, they won't buy their script. Be it that the person is female, the person is of a different race, or has an awful personality.



Personality applies equally to male and female. If someone nix's a project because of the gender or race of the writer then they won't last long in that position. Movies are about money.

There are bigots of every shape and form. But I don't believe the statistics on screenwriting and gender are due to bigotry. It takes a certain personality trait to endure the slings and arrows of screenwriting. That trait may be more prevelant in males than females.

Now if you'll excuse me I have a Mammoth to hunt. And I can only concentrate on one thing at a time.

Laura Reyna
11-01-2006, 12:33 PM
The whole male/female argument is a false trail.

''Will it get an audience'' is the only thing on the minds of those who might buy your script.

There may be genres that are largely male dominated. But that is more to do with the male psyche having a propensity to write that rather than females wanting to but not getting a chance. It's a numbers game. More males than females are attracted to write that genre. l

Do you think distributors give a good goddam whether SAW 3 was written by a man or a woman?

No they don't. Much like the audience, a good number of whom still believe that the actors and director make it up as they go along.

One of the good things about being a writer is that the money people don't care if you are male, female or Martian.

Yes. The money people don't care if you're male or female, black or Latino or whatever...

... in theory. Not always true in practice.

Aren't we always told that relationships are what counts in this business... you have to network & make friends... friends hire other friends, etc...

In this business there are more men is decision-making positions. And men like to work with other men.

I'm not saying it's even a conscious thing necessarily. It's not that the people in charge are actively desciminating against women/minorities, it's just that it's easier building a business rapport w/ the same sex.

It's easier for a man to hire (read) another man who is a pal of someone he went to SC w/, than deal w/ an unknown woman/minority.

I don't think i'm wrong when i point out men-- the kind that make action pics, horror sci-fi-- prefer to make films w/ other men.

The net result is that women/minorities get shut out. It may not be intentional, but it's de facto descrimination. And discrimmination is not a "false trail"

Having white/male insiders at the gates makes it harder for female/minorities outsiders to get in.

Luckily, if you have a good commercial script & push hard enough, you can get in & find work. :)

sc111
11-01-2006, 12:39 PM
Yes. The money people don't care if you're male or female, black or Latino or whatever...

... in theory. Not always true in practice.

Aren't we always told that relationships are what counts in this business... you have to network & make friends... friends hire other friends, etc...

In this business there are more men is decision-making positions. And men like to work with other men.

I'm not saying it's even a conscious thing necessarily. It's not that the people in charge are actively desciminating against women/minorities, it's just that it's easier building a business rapport w/ the same sex.

It's easier for a man to hire (read) another man who is a pal of someone he went to SC w/, than deal w/ an unknown woman/minority.

I don't think i'm wrong when i point out men-- the kind that make action pics, horror sci-fi-- prefer to make films w/ other men.

The net result is that women/minorities get shut out. It may not be intentional, but it's de facto descrimination. And discrimmination is not a "false trail"

Having white/male insiders at the gates makes it harder for female/minorities outsiders to get in.

Luckily, if you have a good commercial script & push hard enough, you can get in & find work. :)

All true. Thank you for distilling it down more succinctly than I did in my multiple rambling posts. I hate when I do that.

;)

deadeye
11-01-2006, 12:40 PM
Having white/male insiders at the gates makes it harder for female/minorities outsiders to get in.



Most of the 'gatekeepers' I have come across are female. I didn't ask their color. It wasn't a concern.


Confidence in your talent overcomes self-perceptions about how others may look at you.

sc111
11-01-2006, 12:43 PM
Most of the 'gatekeepers' I have come across are female.

I'm curious what positions they held.

However - women in power are sometimes biased against other women. Queen Bee syndrome. But that's another topic altogether

Laura Reyna
11-01-2006, 12:43 PM
sc111-

Glad to help out. :D

deadeye
11-01-2006, 12:49 PM
I'm curious what positions they held.

However - women in power are sometimes biased against other women. Queen Bee syndrome. But that's another topic altogether

Anything from Dev Exec to VP to CEO. I'm writing for something right now that has an all female executive down to script ed.

And yeah, us guys know all about the Queen Bee syndrome. Another reason why those of us writers who don't care a crap for any denomination, vested interest, or personal bigotry balk at those with an agenda other than getting the best on screen.

Laura Reyna
11-01-2006, 12:50 PM
Most of the 'gatekeepers' I have come across are female. I didn't ask their color. It wasn't a concern.


Confidence in your talent overcomes self-perceptions about how others may look at you.

Aren't the first people you meet Jr Dev execs? They don't have any real dicision making power.

That's probably why you are seeing alot of women in those positions.

Hopefully those chicks you're seeing at the D level will move up the ladder.

And i agree Deadeye, confidence in yourself & your work is extremely important. I think it might even be more important than talent. Good luck! :)

deadeye
11-01-2006, 01:00 PM
Aren't the first people you meet Jr Dev execs? They don't have any real dicision making power.


I think my last post superceded this one. And was spelled mor beter.

JayKid
11-01-2006, 02:01 PM
I know I'm just taking a portion of the quote, and you backpedalled quite nicely. But, I'm thinking -- maybe -- you shouldn't try to guess why more women don't write.

:)

Sara -- Don't worry about it. You're obviously just a chick, talking for the sake of talking... ;)

At least you acknowledged that you are using my quote incorrectly. Since the backpedalling was important...

But anyway, I did say that I could be (and probably am) wrong about why women pursue writing novels before writing screenplays, but I'm just throwing things out there. That's just a characteristic prevalent in many women (in American society at least) that could reflect what they decide to write.

And lastly, I think maybe there is some subconscious discrimination going on, but that's the last thing I think anyone wants, so I'm attempting to think of ways around it.

I'm sorry if I've been offensive to anyone here, but in no way am I trying to belittle women and their skills. I just feel that there is a POSSIBILITY that male personalities are geared towards writing screenplays and the screenplays they decide to write are the type that also tend to be more marketable. There is a difference between men and women... and it DOES impact their writing. Exactly how it impacts their writing, I can't answer that, my guesses are just that, guesses. So don't think I believe in this 100% or something (it's just an idea!).

Anyways, I wish the best of luck to EVERYONE since the odds are against not just females, but males as well. Screenwriting isn't pretty and most of us will struggle to get anywhere... regardless of gender.

deadeye
11-01-2006, 02:05 PM
And lastly, I think maybe there is some subconscious discrimination going on, but that's the last thing I think anyone wants, so I'm attempting to think of ways around it.

.

I think you are right. Buy a mirror.

warrenP
11-01-2006, 02:34 PM
I love these threads.

SC, do you wake up in the morning and say, hmmm today I shall spin DD's world? ;)

sc111
11-01-2006, 02:51 PM
Warren ... um, no. Not consciously.

I missed you bubbalah! :)

deadeye
11-01-2006, 02:55 PM
I love these threads.

SC, do you wake up in the morning and say, hmmm today I shall spin DD's world? ;)

Do people a service. Join for what you can give.


eeeeeek!

Boobsie Malone
11-01-2006, 03:05 PM
I just feel that there is a POSSIBILITY that male personalities are geared towards writing screenplays and the screenplays they decide to write are the type that also tend to be more marketable. There is a difference between men and women... and it DOES impact their writing.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement. I think people have different sensibilities due to their background, not due to their gender. And, I still assert that it's not screenwriting itself that turns women off a career in screenwriting, it's the business aspect of it.

deadeye
11-01-2006, 03:13 PM
I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement. I think people have different sensibilities due to their background, not due to their gender. And, I still assert that it's not screenwriting itself that turns women off a career in screenwriting, it's the business aspect of it.


And I think that the sooner writers of whatever gender care passionately about what they write the better.

warrenP
11-01-2006, 03:24 PM
Warren ... um, no. Not consciously.

I missed you bubbalah! :)

Awww, I've been missed? That whole "real world" thing keeps getting in the way of me spending my time here.

You might not do it consciously, but you're good at it! :)

writerman
11-01-2006, 03:29 PM
Write holiday scripts...any holiday will do.
There never seems to be enough of those.

warrenP
11-01-2006, 03:33 PM
Write holiday scripts...any holiday will do.
There never seems to be enough of those.


We need a good Flag Day picture. ;)

Pull Back Reveal
11-01-2006, 03:41 PM
We need a good Flag Day picture. ;)

The current Clint Eastwood pic doesn't count?

writerman
11-01-2006, 03:50 PM
There's only been one Ground Hog Day... an open market yet to be tapped.

warrenP
11-01-2006, 03:57 PM
The current Clint Eastwood pic doesn't count?

Well I guess if you consider WWII a holiday it might. ;) :)

warrenP
11-01-2006, 04:01 PM
There's only been one Ground Hog Day... an open market yet to be tapped.

Oh, good catch. I have not seen a quality Ash Wednesday picture either.

JayKid
11-01-2006, 04:13 PM
I think you are right. Buy a mirror.

This is coming from the person who said...

Much like their male counterparts.

The whole male/female argument is a false trail.

''Will it get an audience'' is the only thing on the minds of those who might buy your script.

There may be genres that are largely male dominated. But that is more to do with the male psyche having a propensity to write that rather than females wanting to but not getting a chance. It's a numbers game. More males than females are attracted to write that genre. l

Do you think distributors give a good goddam whether SAW 3 was written by a man or a woman?

No they don't. Much like the audience, a good number of whom still believe that the actors and director make it up as they go along.

One of the good things about being a writer is that the money people don't care if you are male, female or Martian.

I'm not discriminating against women. I could care less if women wrote drama, action, sci fi, horror, or whatever they like... I'm just giving you all one idea that could possibly be the reason for less women spec screenwriters. And it seems you feel the same way.

I don't care if the writer of any movie I enjoy is female or male since they are both equally capable of writing something great. I'm just attempting to answer one of the questions being tossed around in this thread.

Being able to discuss generalizations and discriminating against people are two completely different things. I fully understand that I'm generalizing women with some of my statements and have made that clear more than once.

Sorry if I havne't worded my arguments well enough to avoid confusion... that's my fault. However, I haven't discriminated against women by saying they can't do this or that. I've just stated a few assumptions/generalizations (that I made clear were just that) to explain why they might not want to do this or that--that doesn't mean they aren't capable of it.

Just like you said, a woman or a man could write Saw III and who cares? I know I wouldn't, but let's use that genre for an example... if more men (as you said it) have the "propensity to write that" then women do, then it truly is a numbers game in which women will lose. I don't think you are discriminating against women by saying that. And that's the point I've attempted to make and don't see what's so discriminating about it. It's not saying that women can't do something, it's just the fact that some genres could possibly be more likely to be written by men for personality reasons.

Anyway, I continue to push on with this frikin discussion and sorry if my wordy rants are annoying... I can't help it though. I enjoy discussion and can't help but defend myself when I think I'm being wrongfully accused of discriminating against women.

writerman
11-01-2006, 04:19 PM
Oh, good catch. I have not seen a quality Ash Wednesday picture either.

Backdraft...Ladder 49....

deadeye
11-01-2006, 04:20 PM
This is coming from the person who said...



I'm not discriminating against women. I could care less if women wrote drama, action, sci fi, horror, or whatever they like... I'm just giving you all one idea that could possibly be the reason for less women spec screenwriters. And it seems you feel the same way.

I don't care if the writer of any movie I enjoy is female or male since they are both equally capable of writing something great. I'm just attempting to answer one of the questions being tossed around in this thread.

Being able to discuss generalizations and discriminating against people are two completely different things. I fully understand that I'm generalizing women with some of my statements and have made that clear more than once.

Sorry if I havne't worded my arguments well enough to avoid confusion... that's my fault. However, I haven't discriminated against women by saying they can't do this or that. I've just stated a few assumptions/generalizations (that I made clear were just that) to explain why they might not want to do this or that--that doesn't mean they aren't capable of it.

Just like you said, a woman or a man could write Saw III and who cares? I know I wouldn't, but let's use that genre for an example... if more men (as you said it) have the "propensity to write that" then women do, then it truly is a numbers game in which women will lose. I don't think you are discriminating against women by saying that. And that's the point I've attempted to make and don't see what's so discriminating about it. It's not saying that women can't do something, it's just the fact that some genres could possibly be more likely to be written by men for personality reasons.

Anyway, I continue to push on with this frikin discussion and sorry if my wordy rants are annoying... I can't help it though. I enjoy discussion and can't help but defend myself when I think I'm being wrongfully accused of discriminating against women.
Huh?

Just huh?

warrenP
11-01-2006, 04:21 PM
Backdraft...Ladder 49....

LOL.... :rolling:

nic.h
11-01-2006, 04:23 PM
SC and Boobsie - you girls ROCK! Together you have covered every aspect of the many levels of discrimination women and other minorities* face in every aspect of life, but perhaps more so, in Hollywood. I would add to your arguments, but you have so eloquently and powerfully represented my thoughts and feelings about this subject, that it would be superfluous for me to add anything other than total support for what you've said.

Seriously, you both rock.

The only thing I will say is this in response to the original question/posting (which, btw, was damn funny and smart). That is, how I intend to improve a woman's chances of selling a spec. I will do what my producer does. Support and mentor other women, offer opportunities to other women even if they don't like meetings and aren't comfortable bull****ting through a pitch...

Any time in my working life when I have managed to succeed or develop any measure of status, I try to help the other women along with me, or below me, to reach their full potential. If I do get my film made, I plan to do this too. (Even with my producer, already I've mentioned other projects friends are working on which might match her particular sensibility. Projects by other women. And several of them she's asked me to forward to her.)

And I'll keep doing that, for as long as I have any contacts or network to draw from. Maybe that should be our pact - women actively dedicated to helping women, while still succeeding for themselves.

I don't know if HW is open to this, but a lot of films are made outside of HW and all the women this producer has worked with have used their independent successes as an entree into HW. And with enormous success too, I might add.

A woman's network, perhaps? I'd be up for it. There's a really good one here, for women in film and TV which boasts some pretty impressive creative names.

Now. Back to my script. AND WOULD YOU ALL STOP BEING SO INTERESTING, GODDAMNIT!


*I know we're not a demographic minority - actually the reverse - but power is the key factor in determining real minority status, not numbers)

JayKid
11-01-2006, 04:27 PM
Huh?

Just huh?

Well, your response was to my discrimination reply and you said "look in the mirror"... which seemed to mean that I am discriminating against women.

So, I just posted what I posted to show that I'm not discriminating against women (or anyone for that matter).

Molly Maguire
11-01-2006, 04:30 PM
First of all, "most women" do not write screenplays, so saying things like "most women" want this or "most women" do this means bupkiss. It's not like saying "most tigers like meat." It takes a certain personality type to attempt something with such long odds to begin with. Perhaps the male and female screenwriters are less dispirate than men and women in general. I dunno.

Every writer is an individual. With a unique skill set and range of topics and themes that do and do not interest them. How can more women sell spec scripts? How many more do you want? Statistically, our numbers aren't that far off. If we're writing roughly 25% of the scripts, and ---what--- 16% or something of spec sales are women, the numbers are jiving pretty well.

One could look at it from another perspective. 75% of the crap that doesn't sell is written by men. Does that mean that 'most men' write crap? Hardly. It's just a number. I really don't think about bucking the odds when I write.

I'm drawn to action thriller movies and epics (Braveheart as opposed to Pride and Prejudice). Action thrillers are commercial. Epics are futile (for a newbie). So I do what any smart woman would do. Adjust my writing appetite to fit the appetite of the audience. I can live with that. (We're supposed to be great compromisers, right?)

Because I aced my psychology class, I know the inherent differences in male and female traits. I know why men can concentrate on one thing to the exclusion of all else, and why women's brains will not allow us to do the same. We're hard wired differently. But one is not better than the other. (Unless you're talking hunting wooly mammoths in which case, yes, you boys go on out and play and we women - who INVENTED language by the way - will keep the home fires burning.) But while we're tending the fires, our multitasking brains are already working on the next ten ideas we want to write.


I think the whole "men write commercial" is a self-fulfilling prophesy. Movies are aimed at 18-30 yo males. So 18-30 yo males go in droves to watch those movies made and marketed especially for them. So the studios say, 'well, that worked' and make another batch of male 18-30 movies.

I think horror/thriller might be the great equalizer. Teen girls go in herds to the movies. I know, because I've got one and she spends more on theater tickets that any single male I've ever known. Teen girls then round up OTHER teen girls who 'have to see this movie' and they go again. Then they bring their boyfriends to see it. Then they buy the DVD.

These teen girls are growing up. They're finding that they have just as much disposable income as their male counterparts. They're deciding what they want to see. Someday the studios will figure this out. I aim to be ready when that day arrives.

-Mol:bounce:

deadeye
11-01-2006, 04:34 PM
SC and Boobsie - you girls ROCK! Together you have covered every aspect of the many levels of discrimination women and other minorities* face in every aspect of life, but perhaps more so, in Hollywood. I would add to your arguments, but you have so eloquently and powerfully represented my thoughts and feelings about this subject, that it would be superfluous for me to add anything other than total support for what you've said.

Seriously, you both rock.



And you miss the point. It's not about male or female. Boobsie will make it. Because she just writes. She has a chance of understanding the human condition.

Most of these posts here are meaningless twaddle, including those from moderators who haven't written a damn but feel free to say 'you have written an 'infraction'

Whatever the hell that is.

Was that a dig DM?

Jeez! You're like a meter maid.

JayKid
11-01-2006, 04:45 PM
^I loved that post Molly since it's VERY right.

All I have to say is every word of your post I agree with and is what I've wanted to get across this entire time.

The one thing that I know I didn't get across and I'm glad you brought to light for me is that most writers (let's say female writers) don't fall into the majority anyway. So for me to generalize all women works less when writers already could fall out of the majority. It still does hold true for some no doubt, but it's probably less of an accurate generalization and that's probably why many of the females here aren't walking stereotypes. :)

And, yes, we are hard wired differently (although a lot of the differences are definitely cultural) and I just hope people understand that I don't think that means one is better than the other. If anything, when it comes to writing, I honestly believe women are better writers. Most of my favorite authors are female even and being someone who was always strong in mathematics I always envied the women who had a way with words.

Anyway, I'm done in this thread now that someone has said everything I wanted to say and more, so thank you Molly. Honestly, I obviously couldn't say what you said better myself and to anyone who reads this post just look at Molly's to know my true feelings about the whole discussion.

Anyway, GL to everyone--male and female--with their screenwriting journey's, hopefully we all manage to sell something (even if the odds are against us all :( )

nic.h
11-01-2006, 04:54 PM
[quote=deadeye;309576]And you miss the point. It's not about male or female. Boobsie will make it. Because she just writes. She has a chance of understanding the human condition.

Most of these posts here are meaningless twaddle, including those from moderators who haven't written a damn but feel free to say 'you have written an 'infraction'[quote]

Actually, dude, you miss the point. Nothing is absolute (except that nothing is absolute) but there is no doubt that gender DOES have an impact on how you are perceived in HW. And so much about this industry is based on perceptions.

There have been some really insightful posts here - whether you agree with them or not. Which is not to say that Boobsie or any other woman won't make it because of all the reasons you cited. They - we - probably will. But it doesn't mean we won't encounter discrimination and prejudice along the way. Most of us already have, so it's a moot point.

Sometimes you have to be at the end of prejudice to get it. But do you think I'm going to let it stop me? (OK. You probably don't care.) But the answer is, no way in hell. There are ways in, and I'll find them. Whatever it takes.

No doubt so will other women here.

(But I do think a network is a great way to get started, or at least raise awareness. Even an informal one.)

deadeye
11-01-2006, 05:02 PM
[quote=deadeye;309576]And you miss the point. It's not about male or female. Boobsie will make it. Because she just writes. She has a chance of understanding the human condition.

Most of these posts here are meaningless twaddle, including those from moderators who haven't written a damn but feel free to say 'you have written an 'infraction'[quote]

Actually, dude, you miss the point. Nothing is absolute (except that nothing is absolute) but there is no doubt that gender DOES have an impact on how you are perceived in HW. And so much about this industry is based on perceptions.


Dude? Seriously?

theradicalone
11-01-2006, 05:06 PM
let's talk faucking reality. let's talk about what THE WOMEN ON THIS BOARD ARE WRITING.

i guarantee it... guarant faucking TTTTTT, that it's female nonsense. it's not highconcept. it's not male marketable and it's not gritty.

prove me wrong, just one time. doesnt' mean women can't write, they can, some of the writers i think are great are women, but the subject matter and WORLD POV is dripping in the female pov and that's what we, the movie goer, the world revolves around --

---- what do the people want? the women are writing silly, single minded romcoms and my big fat grreek arse.

period, end of story, come back to me when you write the departed.

deadeye
11-01-2006, 05:12 PM
let's talk faucking reality. let's talk about what THE WOMEN ON THIS BOARD ARE WRITING.

i guarantee it... guarantee faucking TTTTTT it that it's female nonsense. it's not highconcept. it's not male marketable and it's not gritty.

prove me wrong, just one time. doesnt' mean women can't write, they can, some of the writers i think are great are women, but the subject matter and WORLD POV is dripping in the female pov and that's what we, the movie goer, the world revolves around --

---- what do the people want? the women are writing silly, single minded romcoms and my big fat grreek arse.

period, end of story, come back to me when you write the departed.

Doh!

rockridesva
11-01-2006, 05:22 PM
I haven't read this through much at all, but I did just think. In the past 6 months the well over 200 scripts I've read I can only recollect a handful of those being female writers. I suppose it must have a strong part in the fact that there are far more male screewriters then men? Not sure myself. But I know I NEVER read who a script is by before I read it. So, I've never really thought "oh thiis is a male writer/female writer".

Jake Schuster
11-01-2006, 05:25 PM
let's talk faucking reality. let's talk about what THE WOMEN ON THIS BOARD ARE WRITING.

i guarantee it... guarant faucking TTTTTT, that it's female nonsense. it's not highconcept. it's not male marketable and it's not gritty.

prove me wrong, just one time.

Okay. My partner--a woman, and, yes, a long-time contributor to DoneDeal--and I are developing a high-concept thriller with a woman producer attached to to a major studio. She brought me this gritty, male-marketable story, and it's attracted a lot of attention (and got us a first-rate rep).

Careful how you generalize.:o

deadeye
11-01-2006, 05:33 PM
I haven't read this thought much at all, .

No you haven't. Take a break..

rockridesva
11-01-2006, 05:37 PM
sitting on my couch, sick as they come. Apparently that HAS in fact not only hurt my ability to keep snot from running out everywhere, but also to type simple words...

Go me!

amandag
11-01-2006, 05:44 PM
Talk is cheap. This thread is going on 20 pages.

I ain't buying anything in this thread from people who don't contribute to

THE ACTION SEX CHALLENGE--

Created by sc111. Due this Saturday.

Otherwise, were all getting our screens dirty with 'hypothetical' pre-jackulation (*cough* Radicalone)

nic.h
11-01-2006, 05:46 PM
let's talk faucking reality. let's talk about what THE WOMEN ON THIS BOARD ARE WRITING.

i guarantee it... guarant faucking TTTTTT, that it's female nonsense. it's not highconcept. it's not male marketable and it's not gritty.

prove me wrong, just one time. doesnt' mean women can't write, they can, some of the writers i think are great are women, but the subject matter and WORLD POV is dripping in the female pov and that's what we, the movie goer, the world revolves around --

---- what do the people want? the women are writing silly, single minded romcoms and my big fat grreek arse.

period, end of story, come back to me when you write the departed.

That's arguably one of the stupidest posts I've read in a long while. And I occasionally scan the MovieBytes bulletin board so that's really saying something.

I'm done with this conversation.

theradicalone
11-01-2006, 05:56 PM
sonner cut her mustard on a romcom, a paint by the numbers, women pov story i read it, so let's be honest here.

second, sooner is an abberation of sorts in my generalizations because she thinks in concepts and markets that bridge her sex and the marketplace.

please, let's not argue over semantics. sooner gets a pass from me.

theradicalone
11-01-2006, 05:57 PM
that's not even close to my dumbest post, sadly it's not even in the top 50. however, like most everything i say it's the truth, as far as i can see through my goggles.

deadeye
11-01-2006, 06:04 PM
that's not even close to my dumbest post, sadly it's not even in the top 50. however, like most everything i say it's the truth, as far as i can see through my goggles.

Good going on those extra thick goggles.

theradicalone
11-01-2006, 06:05 PM
i fear no writer. i am a writer. enough faucking said.

sc111
11-01-2006, 06:07 PM
let's talk faucking reality. let's talk about what THE WOMEN ON THIS BOARD ARE WRITING.

i guarantee it... guarant faucking TTTTTT, that it's female nonsense. it's not highconcept. it's not male marketable and it's not gritty.




So what's your latest male marketable idea, paisan?

deadeye
11-01-2006, 06:09 PM
So what's your latest male marketable idea, paisan?

It's Vig, God love him. So it might be okay.

theradicalone
11-01-2006, 06:13 PM
well, sc, goon squad happend to think my idea about the greasy spoon was marketable. you kind of liked my slasher idea with the graphic novel, which you helped develope.

my fangirl story.

my killer bud story about the pot smokers who have to save the world from a crop of bud that turns all non users into zombies.

i have others, you know that. i prove what i say, either in sheer ignorance or brilliance it's all up to your interpretation.

warrenP
11-01-2006, 06:36 PM
Talk is cheap. This thread is going on 20 pages.

I ain't buying anything in this thread from people who don't contribute to

THE ACTION SEX CHALLENGE--

Created by sc111. Due this Saturday.

Otherwise, were all getting our screens dirty with 'hypothetical' pre-jackulation (*cough* Radicalone)

There is an Action Sex Challenge? Hmmmm... I might have to partake... :)

Jake Schuster
11-01-2006, 06:44 PM
sonner cut her mustard on a romcom, a paint by the numbers, women pov story i read it, so let's be honest here.

second, sooner is an abberation of sorts in my generalizations because she thinks in concepts and markets that bridge her sex and the marketplace.

please, let's not argue over semantics. sooner gets a pass from me.

Well, I'm the one working with her. I've been a professional working writer for many years, and by any measure--certainly by mine--she's as professional as any I've known or worked with.

It's not semantics; it's not even basic grammar, something you seem to, um, lack...

sarajb
11-01-2006, 06:51 PM
Female nonsense has nothing on you, theradic.

Marine66
11-01-2006, 07:16 PM
You folks all ever get together for a beer?

ihavebiglips
11-01-2006, 07:18 PM
You folks all ever get together for a beer?

You ever have a combat dining-in when you were in the corps? :rolling:

I imagine the similarities would be striking.

Marine66
11-01-2006, 07:21 PM
You ever have a combat dining-in when you were in the corps? :rolling:

I imagine the similarities would be striking.

I seriously doubt that, Lips. Remember, everybody's armed.

ihavebiglips
11-01-2006, 07:28 PM
I seriously doubt that, Lips. Remember, everybody's armed.

I missed a Lite Colonel's head with a baked potato by about three inches during an open fire once. Needless to say, the grog bowl was my friend that night.

writerman
11-01-2006, 09:03 PM
You know, Jake is the reason for all the wars on this message board. LOL
Just kidding, Jake. Glad to see your old avatar is back. It just wasn't you without it.

Bellabell
11-01-2006, 09:11 PM
let's talk faucking reality. let's talk about what THE WOMEN ON THIS BOARD ARE WRITING.


---- what do the people want? the women are writing silly, single minded romcoms and my big fat grreek arse.


This doesn't make sense to me. Didn't the public show they want to see these silly movies with ticket sales? Wouldn't that be considered marketable?

Either way, I'm sure if you and the writer of greek wedding were pitching to studio execs, they'd choose your story.


:rolleyes:

theradicalone
11-01-2006, 09:26 PM
the point is MOST, if not all women are writing watered down versions of said movies like christmas cookies, with little or no chance of recreating the bombshell with the focus of the script a cliche wrapped in a very stereotypical story and world view through the eyes of a women.

much like the tarantino clones of hopped up greenhorns

ihavebiglips
11-01-2006, 09:34 PM
So does that mean you guys (and ladies) don't get together now and then to have a beer and discuss screenwriting, sexism and anti-Semitism?

If anyone wants to discuss satanism, pederasty, ingrown toenails, disenfranchisement, the bumper crops of Siberia, the world's largest man made ball of twine, moonshining, colloquilisms of central america, mounties, Molly Ringwald, Nikolai Volkoff and the Iron Sheik, ritual suicide, the reason why the writers of Murder She Wrote didn't have the balls to reveal Angela Lansbury was a serial killer in the final episode, vig's impending banishment from the board, ginger snaps, Thai ping pong acts, Terrence Malick, group sex, african lip plates, the possible location of Carmen San Diego, the secret code for 30 ups in Contra, and bat guano... I have a six pack of Old Milwaukee.

Oh yeah, and screenwriting.

sc111
11-01-2006, 09:43 PM
To recap:

Society and upbringing discourage women from breaking in.

Those who try have a hard time breaking in because men are the gatekeepers.

Of course, women gatekeepers are prejudiced against women, too.

No wonder I get so many jobs.

Half the competition has been disqualified. :)

When you take everything I said out of context and delete modifiers like "some" men, "some" women, yeah, sure -- sounds like you're sitting pretty, Best.

:)

Marine66
11-01-2006, 09:48 PM
If anyone wants to discuss satanism, pederasty, ingrown toenails, disenfranchisement, the bumper crops of Siberia, the world's largest man made ball of twine, moonshining, colloquilisms of central america, mounties, Molly Ringwald, Nikolai Volkoff and the Iron Sheik, ritual suicide, the reason why the writers of Murder She Wrote didn't have the balls to reveal Angela Lansbury was a serial killer in the final episode, vig's impending banishment from the board, ginger snaps, Thai ping pong acts, Terrence Malick, group sex, african lip plates, the possible location of Carmen San Diego, the secret code for 30 ups in Contra, and bat guano... I have a six pack of Old Milwaukee.

Oh yeah, and screenwriting.

OK. But I'm not going unless Sevoo is invited.

writerman
11-01-2006, 09:53 PM
Wait a minute...Angela Lansbury was a serial killer in the final episode?

odocoileus
11-01-2006, 10:08 PM
Does the success of women showrunners in TV play a role in this debate? Would you rather be Akiva Goldsman or Shonda Rhimes?

Granted, showrunner vs A list screenwriter is an apples vs. oranges comparison, but the richest, most powerful writers in the industry are TV showrunners. Feature writers are usually hired hands, well compensated hired hands, but hired hands nonetheless.

Ann Donahue, Barbara Hall, Pam Veasey, Brenda Hampton, Denise Dinovi, these women have or had more power than anybody except stars and A list directors.

ihavebiglips
11-01-2006, 10:13 PM
Wait a minute...Angela Lansbury was a serial killer in the final episode?

IHAVEBIGLIPS
Unfortunately, no.

ihavebiglips takes a guzzle of Old Milwaukee.

IHAVEBIGLIPS(CONT'D)
But, that's what I would have
done with the final episode.

writerman
11-01-2006, 10:22 PM
IHAVEBIGLIPS
Unfortunately, no.

ihavebiglips takes a guzzle of Old Milwaukee.

IHAVEBIGLIPS(CONT'D)
But, that's what I would have
done with the final episode.

We all need to take up a collection so ihavebiglips can buy some real beer.

ihavebiglips
11-01-2006, 10:26 PM
We all need to take up a collection so ihavebiglips can buy some real beer.

Call it nostalgia. When I was was in Milwaukee I rented a month-to-month room in a frat house, until it burned down. We were all broke, and were forced to acquire that taste.

writerman
11-01-2006, 10:30 PM
Call it nostalgia. When I was was in Milwaukee I rented a month-to-month room in a frat house, until it burned down. We were all broke, and were forced to acquire that taste.

Dubuque Star... just saying it makes me dry heave.

Boobsie Malone
11-01-2006, 10:53 PM
let's talk faucking reality. let's talk about what THE WOMEN ON THIS BOARD ARE WRITING.

i guarantee it... guarant faucking TTTTTT, that it's female nonsense. it's not highconcept. it's not male marketable and it's not gritty.

prove me wrong, just one time. doesnt' mean women can't write, they can, some of the writers i think are great are women, but the subject matter and WORLD POV is dripping in the female pov and that's what we, the movie goer, the world revolves around --

---- what do the people want? the women are writing silly, single minded romcoms and my big fat grreek arse.

period, end of story, come back to me when you write the departed


Vig, might I refer you to my first post in this thread? You just wanted one example to prove you wrong. It's here: http://messageboard.donedealpro.com/boards/showthread.php?t=24721&page=7

I don't write romantic comedies. I rarely even watch them. Oh, and, I loved The Departed, if I wrote features, that would definitely be the genre I'd write.

So, yeah, this is reality. Or, at least, it's mine. It's a shame you (and a lot of other people) think all women write one genre. Because we don't.

I realize that Vig isn't speaking for all men here, but I do think that there are quite a few men in the hiring positions that think as he does. Hopefully he's proved a little about what some women could/can/do encounter.

ihavebiglips
11-01-2006, 11:01 PM
OK. But I'm not going unless Sevoo is invited.

:rolling:

theradicalone
11-02-2006, 06:22 AM
Boobsie, you don't write scripts. you copy tv shows. tv shows have a template. you have to match the show with the content. of course you don't write popcorn stuff.

suv criminal intent won't allow you to write a rom com.

SHOW ME AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT. show me an original character. you pretty much reinforced what i'm saying. you take other peoples idea and throw a hook into it.

again, show me an original story. don't copy a template of csi, or law and order where you write a girl gets rapped by a maniacle clown and have some detective piece it together in an hour because that's the paint by lines format.

show me an original story.

Hamletta
11-02-2006, 07:15 AM
I've been ignoring this thread for its absurdity and I guess I should continue to do so but, what the heck...

Vig, I write sci-fi, thrillers and action. Tried a rom-com once (thought some may think it more marketable for a woman... :rolling: ) but it's just not my thing.

Now you will probably say that all my scripts suck and are derivative -- this may be the case but just how would you know?

Thinking in generalizations is dangerous, even if the so-called numbers prove you right. In the end we are all individuals with equal right to be pathetic or brilliant.

BTW, when we go to the movies, I choose the films where they shoot or blow things up. My husband chooses drama or rom-coms. Go figure.

Qazworld
11-02-2006, 07:43 AM
argueng with radicil over something like this is as usefull as sleeping with a hooker on your weding night.

you dont pet the fox when you got the goat.

vig

sc111
11-02-2006, 08:00 AM
Boobsie, you don't write scripts. you copy tv shows. tv shows have a template. you have to match the show with the content. of course you don't write popcorn stuff.

suv criminal intent won't allow you to write a rom com.

SHOW ME AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT. show me an original character. you pretty much reinforced what i'm saying. you take other peoples idea and throw a hook into it.

again, show me an original story. don't copy a template of csi, or law and order where you write a girl gets rapped by a maniacle clown and have some detective piece it together in an hour because that's the paint by lines format.

show me an original story.


Vig - Paint by numbers? Have you tried to write a TV spec of an existing show? Try it - and try to do it right.

Much harder than writing an original spec for theaters.

My hat's off to TV writers.

sarajb
11-02-2006, 08:06 AM
There isn’t a woman or man here who needs to prove anything to you. vig.

Speaking of tired regurgitations, we get it, already. You don’t find any female particularly unique or interesting and have no problem chainsawing us down to size with your infamous asshattery, regardless of how good many here have been to you in helping your writing.

SC must be a saint.

DMNY
11-02-2006, 08:22 AM
She is... :)

Jcorona
11-02-2006, 08:48 AM
Ladies, forget all this back and forth stuff.

My offer still stands to submit your scripts under my name. Believe me, submitting under "Dana Willow" can take you places.

Thank you,

Corona

Boobsie Malone
11-02-2006, 09:19 AM
Boobsie, you don't write scripts. you copy tv shows. tv shows have a template. you have to match the show with the content. of course you don't write popcorn stuff.

SHOW ME AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT. show me an original character. you pretty much reinforced what i'm saying. you take other peoples idea and throw a hook into it.

again, show me an original story. don't copy a template of csi, or law and order where you write a girl gets rapped by a maniacle clown and have some detective piece it together in an hour because that's the paint by lines format.

show me an original story.

So, would my original pilots suffice? Let's see, I've got three. Nary a one is sweet and sappy.

sc111
11-02-2006, 10:15 AM
There isn’t a woman or man here who needs to prove anything to you. vig.

Speaking of tired regurgitations, we get it, already. You don’t find any female particularly unique or interesting and have no problem chainsawing us down to size with your infamous asshattery, regardless of how good many here have been to you in helping your writing.

SC must be a saint.



Saint? Hmmm. Well, yesterday was All Saint's Day for Catholics. It was also my birthday (hence the 111). However, I always wished I was born a day earlier on Halloween. Then again , it would make me a day older. Nevermind, I'll stick with 11/1.


Now, Vig is Vig. Part board personna, part real. But I think his online character has mellowed over the years.

We're buds even though we disagree on a regular basis. We've even attempted to write pages together upon his request. So, I guess he doesn't think women writers automatically svck. The partnership stalled - all my fault -- I'm a solo writer, not good at co-writing. And as I've said before, Vig's flair for dialogue is among the best I've read.

When I write dialogue for male characters, I often think, "How would Vig write this?"

;)

Qazworld
11-02-2006, 10:36 AM
happy bday sc.

sarajb
11-02-2006, 10:41 AM
Well, at present my board persona is wholly nauseated by his board persona. :|

You'll have to trust the vig is vig thing need not be explained to me.

I second Qaz's birthday wish, sc!

Qazworld
11-02-2006, 10:45 AM
more ppl should fill out their profiles.

:bowling:

DMNY
11-02-2006, 10:59 AM
True that, Qaz.

Happy b-lated Birthday, sc. :D

warrenP
11-02-2006, 11:04 AM
...It was also my birthday (hence the 111). However, I always wished I was born a day earlier on Halloween. Then again , it would make me a day older. Nevermind, I'll stick with 11/1.



Happy Birthday! :)

I'm also a November B-day, mine is the 11th.

Joe Unidos
11-02-2006, 11:08 AM
Kind of stating the obvious, but women can sell more specs by writing material that people want to buy from them. The same is true of men.

:D

sc111
11-02-2006, 01:43 PM
Thanks on the B-day wishes, all. (seems to be a lot of November babies on DD - hmmm)

Sara - on the Vig is Vig thing, I understand totally. Which reminds me ...


... Vig - you need new material paisan, this "women only write sappy rom-coms" routine has really gotten old. Oh - wait - weren't we co-writing a rom-com? ;)

theradicalone
11-02-2006, 03:57 PM
i know. how about women are great astronauts? there is no question that the people i deal with off these boards, women, get the utmost respect from me. i just feel women need to try a little bit harder to stretch beyond what is comfortable.

i love you all -- and all that tolerate me.

theradicalone
11-02-2006, 04:18 PM
you had me at hello sara.

Kel
11-02-2006, 04:45 PM
I don't have the energy to read through the entire thread, so maybe this has already been addressed -- but is it a good thing or bad thing that I've been spraying a little perfume on my scripts before sending them out?

k

writerman
11-02-2006, 04:49 PM
I don't have the energy to read through the entire thread, so maybe this has already been addressed -- but is it a good thing or bad thing that I've been spraying a little perfume on my scripts before sending them out?

k

Confused....by Calvin Klein

Kel
11-02-2006, 04:51 PM
No, Jean Nate.

theradicalone
11-02-2006, 04:51 PM
i like to eat cats

writerman
11-02-2006, 04:56 PM
You know what would be interesting, but almost impossible to figure out...the total number of women who have tried their hand at screenwriting against those women who actually sold a script.

Even though there are more men working as screenwriters than women...statistically speaking, I bet women have had a greater percentage of success than men...overall.





....and the universe is just a cell on some creature's leg.

writerman
11-02-2006, 04:57 PM
i like to eat cats


Now, I would have written that as:

I love cats....they're delicious.

Pull Back Reveal
11-02-2006, 05:01 PM
You know what would be interesting, but almost impossible to figure out...the total number of women who have tried their hand at screenwriting against those women who actually sold a script.

Even though there are more men working as screenwriters than women...statistically speaking, I bet women have had a greater percentage of success than men...overall.

Nah, this isn't that hard to figure out. Waaaay earlier in this thread someone posted that 25 percent of WGA registered scripts are by women and maybe 18 percent of script sales are by women, which would mean women sell scripts at a lower rate than men. That's the basis of the whole controversy.

Boobsie Malone
11-02-2006, 06:20 PM
Well, the point of those statistics is that women have a 72% success rate. If my math is correct. Which it's probably not, cuz I'm a chick, yet an Asian chick, so stereotypically, I should be great at numbers...

Out of the 75% male screenwriters, I'd love to know what percentage are working screenwriters.

And more importantly, did I prove Vig wrong? He didn't respond, therefore, I must have. Ha! Double ha!

Sorry, my competitive nature came out there. I'll now take off my shoes and get in the kitchen.

Boobsie Malone
11-02-2006, 06:21 PM
Kel, as long as the card stock is pink, and you sprinkle the script with glitter, you're golden.

sarajb
11-02-2006, 06:22 PM
i just feel women need to try a little bit harder to stretch beyond what is comfortable.
See, now this is excellent advice for anyone. Realy really well-said. And, you had me at "I'm sorry" even if it was in subtext.

Subteeeext. :mad:
Nah, this isn't that hard to figure out. Waaaay earlier in this thread someone posted that 25 percent of WGA registered scripts are by women and maybe 18 percent of script sales are by women, which would mean women sell scripts at a lower rate than men. That's the basis of the whole controversy.I wouldn't say it's the basis of the whole controversy, in fact some of us were using it to pull the whole controversy closer to center.

Pull Back Reveal
11-02-2006, 06:30 PM
I wouldn't say it's the basis of the whole controversy, in fact some of us were using it to pull the whole controversy closer to center.

OK, I stand corrected. At the heart of the controversy after the question was raised. Once we tried to get beyond ridiculous stereotypes about women vis romantic comedies and men vis action.

Boobsie: If 18 percent of scripts are sold by women, then 82 percent would be sold by men, meaning a greater success rate for the 75 percent of men registering WGA? (I didn't do the research, just extrapolating from postings ... probably not very smart. I do not know if any of those figures take both-sex writing teams into account.) More men write scripts (to the WGA registry point), but even more men sell scripts. The success rate for both sexes is far closer to 1 percent, but there is a disparity.

sarajb
11-02-2006, 06:41 PM
Yes, men have a higher success rate. 7% higher. Just not a big hand-wringing deal to me.

**** am I ornery, today. Guess I should go write that action short, now.

Or is it 14%...which is still not huge, but might be worth one short wring.

Boobsie Malone
11-02-2006, 07:27 PM
Sorry, my math's off. I think.

25% of the scripts registered were women.
18% of the 25% (not 18% of 100%, right?) of the those registered are by working women. Right?

So, 75% of the registered scripts were registered by men.

My question was: what percentage of those 75% scripts registered by men are working screenwriters? It's not a 100% success rate, is it?

ihavebiglips
11-02-2006, 07:30 PM
Yes, men have a higher success rate. 7% higher. Just not a big hand-wringing deal to me.

**** am I ornery, today. Guess I should go write that action short, now.

Or is it 14%...which is still not huge, but might be worth one short wring.

You're so cute when you're ornery.

sarajb
11-02-2006, 07:40 PM
Lol, thanks lips.

Okay, I'm no math whiz by any stretch Boobsie, but how does this sound:

If 18% of working screenwriters are women and 25% of wannabe screenwriters are women, then 7% less make it than are trying. And, if 82% of working screenwriters are men and 75% of wannabe screenwriters are men than 7% more make it than are trying.

Does that mean men have a 14% higher success rate?

I don't think the article gave us numbers that would help us figure out what percent of wannabe's make it, men or women.

Could a nice young math-minded man with pecs to die for please crunch the numbers? Thanks. :D

ihavebiglips
11-02-2006, 07:42 PM
7% more make it than are trying.


That just sounds weird.

I'd help you, but over the last 7 years my pecs... yeah, I can't help you.

writerman
11-02-2006, 07:43 PM
If 53,768 men are on a train with script in hand, heading toward Hollywood at 63mph and 23 women were on a plane with script in hand, flying toward Hollywood at 600mph...

what chance in h-e-double hockey sticks do I have of selling my script?

:eek:

amandag
11-02-2006, 07:46 PM
i just want to be able to pee standing up

ihavebiglips
11-02-2006, 07:48 PM
i just want to be able to pee standing up

Go ahead, I won't tell.

amandag
11-02-2006, 08:05 PM
Thanks, BL, but trying to spell my name is one big mess. :(

sarajb
11-02-2006, 08:09 PM
...than 7% more make it than are tryingYou're right. That sounds weird.

The percentage of working male screenwriters (vs. female screen writers) is 7% higher than the percentage of male wannabes (vs female wannabes).

That's a little better.

warrenP
11-02-2006, 08:19 PM
...

Could a nice young math-minded man with pecs to die for please crunch the numbers? Thanks. :D

How about a not-so-young-average-math-minded with average pecs?

sarajb
11-02-2006, 08:22 PM
Yes! Crunch them, warren, crunch them!

warrenP
11-02-2006, 08:24 PM
Yes! Crunch them, warren, crunch them!

I imagine you saying that out loud in the room to your computer screen, and it makes me smile. ;) :)

ihavebiglips
11-02-2006, 08:33 PM
I imagine you saying that out loud in the room to your computer screen, and it makes me smile. ;) :)

Freak! :bounce:

warrenP
11-02-2006, 08:59 PM
OK, Iíll give this my best shot. Iím basing this on the post that had the 18% and 25% figures.

Assuming that is true, then 18 out of every 100 film writers are women, and 82 out of every 100 film writers are men. Obviously, following the next stat, 25 out of every 100 wannabe writers are women, and 75 out of every 100 wannabe writers are men.

Womenís odd are then actually decreasing, because that group of 25% is only going to get employed at an 18% rate. On the menís side, the group of 75% is going to get employed at an 82% rate. Now, this is making a direct correlation between these two stats, which is probably incorrect, but all we have to work with here.

It is really hard to make these stats work, since we have so little data behind them. If one guy writes 10 scripts that get made, he is just 1 guy. If 8 women write 8 different scripts that get made, well you can see how the stats weíre using donít really have enough basis. If the case were that a small group of men are accounting for lots of scripts and the women are all writing one script at a time, well then the odds would be in favor of the individual woman.

So, here is my conclusion: I just confused everyone even more. Now I shall go to my room.

sarajb
11-02-2006, 09:17 PM
:rolling:

Okay, let's pretend the registered scripts each represent one male or one female and disregard numerous instances of scripts registered by one person, as ridiculous and wrong as that obviously is.

On the working side, let's pretend working screenwriters are all equal in the various measures of success - $, # of movies/scripts, etc.

Now, run with what we have female to male. Wannabes 25 - 75 Working 18 - 82

Given these very rough and hardly accurate but they're all we've got numbers, how much higher is the male success rate, success being simply a working writer? Please, show your work.

I did say it out loud, btw.

EDIT: Don't laugh at my math. It's been a long time. At first glance simple subtraction gave me 7%, but that seemed too easy and the -7% vs +7% was/is tripping me out (my next question is, of course, what is "was" divided by "is" :| ).

25/75 and 18/82 multiply the numerators and denominators to get 450/6150, which is 7%

Warren?

writerman
11-02-2006, 09:31 PM
:rolling:

Okay, let's pretend the registered scripts each represent one male or one female and disregard numerous instances of scripts registered by one person, as ridiculous and wrong as that obviously is.

On the working side, let's pretend working screenwriters are all equal in the various measures of success - $, # of movies/scripts, etc.

Now, run with what we have female to male. Wannabes 25 - 75 Working 18 - 82

Given these very rough and hardly accurate but they're all we've got numbers, how much higher is the male success rate, success being simply a working writer? Please, show your work.

I did say it out loud, btw.

There is no way to correctly answer this equation because of the many assumptions already made in the figures, especially percentages.

We would need to account for every person trying to be a screenwriter, not just those who registered material at WGA, and then account for the "actual" number of scripts sold from that particular pool of people and then and only then would you have a percentage or success rate of that particular group.

Said writerman flexing his pecs.