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WriteByNight
11-12-2009, 05:23 PM
What does this recent offbeat sale (and buzz in general) tell us about perception and buzz as opposed to a great script you and your agent feel great about going out with?

Geoff Alexander
11-12-2009, 05:25 PM
Every other person who's seen JUNO or read the script insists it's overrated. Yet this screenwriter has gotten more ink than possibly any other new scribe since Shane Black it seems.

What does this tell us about perception and buzz as opposed to selling a script you and your agent feel great about?

If you want ink, get inked. Like David Ayer, another highly overrated writer who parlayed a sorta bad boy image into more cred than he might have deserved.

Jules
11-12-2009, 05:26 PM
David Ayer is not overrated.

umo
11-12-2009, 05:42 PM
My crystal ball(s) say this is gonna turn into a veeeerrrry long thread...

Whether it's deserved or not, doesn't matter. What matters is getting there. Marketing yourself certainly helps.

To test the theory, one of you guys could start a blog talking about your experience as a male escort (to support yourself while you get discovered).

Or as an ex-priest who spills the beans from the confessional...
Or a sex therapist who is impotent and doesn't get what all the fuss is about...
Or a guy wanting to break the Guinness Record for most dates on Match.com...

etc., etc., etc.

I was thinking of starting a blog about a woman screenwriter passing herself off as a guy to get a writing gig. Hmmm. :shifty:

grant
11-12-2009, 05:51 PM
By "every other person", do you mean 50% think she's overrated? Or do you mean that everyone else you know thinks Juno is overrated? Do you have any statistics to back it up? Seems anecdotal. Which doesn't prove anything.

For example, everyone around here, everyone I know, thinks Transformers 2 sucked. Can't come up with a single friend who liked it. But when Ebert trashed it on his blog, people came out of the woodwork who insisted it was a good movie.

Or "Two and a Half Men" or "Gray's Anatomy". Everyone I know thinks they suck. Can't think of a single friend who likes either show. But they get great ratings.

So what's the basis of the claim that everyone thinks she's overrated?

Landis26
11-12-2009, 05:56 PM
Or "Two and a Half Men" or "Gray's Anatomy". Everyone I know thinks they suck. Can't think of a single friend who likes either show. But they get great ratings.

So what's the basis of the claim that everyone thinks she's overrated?

"Two and a half Men" is way-way funnier than "30 Rock." I don't know anyone outside the industry that thinks "30 Rock" is funny. The ratings back me up on this.

grant
11-12-2009, 06:01 PM
"Two and a half Men" is way-way funnier than "30 Rock." I don't know anyone outside the industry that thinks "30 Rock" is funny. The ratings back me up on this.

My point is, everyone I know thinks it's stupid. But that doesn't mean that everyone thinks it's stupid. Or even a majority of people. Same with Diablo Cody. Just saying everyone thinks she's overrated doesn't make it so. So lets start with establishing that everyone really does think she's overrated.

Laura Reyna
11-12-2009, 06:20 PM
This thread could be really valuable... if we stay away from the Diablo is overrated/no she's not argument. Let's not limit the conversation to the merits or non-merits of one writer.

Lets talk about getting BUZZ.

Media BUZZ... industry BUZZ...

BUZZ. How do we get it?

Let's have a discussion about how we can market ourselves... the role of the internet... The screenwriter as STAR... as media darling... flavor of the month...etc

Lots of writers have been high profile over the yrs...
Shane Black
Joe Eszterhas
Callie Khouri
Charlie Kaufmann
Ron Bass

What about the "Shlt My Dad Says" guy that has a deal now b/c of his Twitter account...

Writers who have sold specs and have gotten industry BUZZ as a result:
Craig Zahler-- BRIGANDS OF RATTLEBORGE
Brad Inglesby-- THE LOW DWELLER
Jon Spaihts-- PASSENGERS

Our own Ryan Condal got a lot of industry buzz with GALAHAD and is now doing assignment after assignment...

The subject of BUZZ and how to get it doesn't begin and end with Diablo.

:D

WriteByNight
11-12-2009, 06:34 PM
Good idea, Stynlra. Just changed things a little to make sure thread doesn't go off course too much.

Coulda started a new thread but F it.

Richmond Weems
11-12-2009, 06:34 PM
BUZZ. How do we get it?

Well, first we have to take a trip to Spanky's house 'cause I'm all out. No sharing. You buy your own. Then a stop at the Circle K for beer (no grocery store beer; it's not cold enough), head back to the trailer, put on some Skynyrd, and let the good times roll. Remember to hold it in--

Oh. You're talking about...um, nevermind.

hscope
11-12-2009, 06:37 PM
The Diablo Cody fixation here always surprises me.

Her looks and back story and talent and a terrific little film all combined to generate buzz. She's the complete media package. And while there are probably many writers with the same or similar attributes, both more and less talented, if the stars aren't aligned it's always going to be more difficult to generate a profile.

Diablo is - and should be - milking this buzz for all it's worth. I would expect any of us to do the same if we were in her shoes.

Whether or not she is overrated is completely irrelevant.

NikeeGoddess
11-12-2009, 08:49 PM
The Diablo Cody fixation here always surprises me.although most will disagree i honestly believe it's a sexist thingy. whenever a woman does well some men go out of their way to find fault with her. there are so many bad movies made by men but you guys don't obsess over that writer. why so with DC? it's a hillary clinton phenomenon... although there was many who had this problem before her she is definitely the most famous for having it.

Laura Reyna
11-12-2009, 09:50 PM
although most will disagree i honestly believe it's a sexist thingy. whenever a woman does well some men go out of their way to find fault with her. there are so many bad movies made by men but you guys don't obsess over that writer. why so with DC? it's a hillary clinton phenomenon... although there was many who had this problem before her she is definitely the most famous for having it.

I think at the heart of it, it's really about the stripper thing.

It isn't so much that she's a woman-- she's a woman who used her sexuality to get ahead & promote herself. A lot of men find this irritating b/c they can't use their sexuality to the same degree as women. (Some women find it irritating b/c they wouldn't use their sexuality to get ahead.)

I think a lot of men secretly (or not so secretly) think successful women have used their sexuality unfairly to get ahead (sleeping with the boss or whatever).... and yeah, that's sexist.

There's no denying Cody played up the stripper thing to get media attention. I think I read where she actually became a stripper in order to have something juicy to write about. Using sex to get media attention (or any kind of attention) is the oldest trick in the book. It's not respected b/c its so easy & common.

Another thing that provokes criticism has to do with feeling that the attention she gets is out of proportion to her actual talent.

You could argue that if you took away the titillation factor of the stripping, and the media attention that comes with it, you'd be left with a blogger from the Midwest who wrote an amusing coming of age movie that was well made and struck a cord. You wouldn’t have the “media sensation” that is Diablo Cody.

Laura Reyna
11-12-2009, 09:53 PM
So OK...

blogging & writing about stripping... & maybe her quirky writing style... is Cody’s “THING”…these are the reasons she’s gotten so much attention. They are part of her BRAND.

So what can we learn from the Cody Phenomenon?

Do all writers need to brand themselves?

If so HOW?

Is it enough just to write good stories that people want to turn into movies?

Geoff Alexander
11-13-2009, 09:31 AM
David Ayer is not overrated.

To paraphrase Ed Harris as John Glenn, "I thank GOD that we live in a country where you can be wrong and yet still have the right to disagree with me." :)

malfernan
11-13-2009, 11:13 AM
So what can we learn from the Cody Phenomenon?

Do all writers need to brand themselves?

If so HOW?

Is it enough just to write good stories that people want to turn into movies?



When you say the Cody Phenomenon, I presume you are referring to the media attention? If that's the case, then most of that is out of the writer's hands. All a writer can do is write a script and not necessarily well-written. After that, there is quite a bit of luck involved. The movie needs to be produced, and it has to be either a huge hit, or an awards darling or both. Also, the writer has to have an unique angle that the media can grab onto. It helps if the writer is good-looking. Cody's angle like you mentioned was her sexuality. Another example, whose sexuality was also an angle -- Dustin Lance Black.

I think for the rest of us, the best we can do is brand ourselves through genre. Write a well-written, saleable script and try to create industry buzz this way. To sustain a career, isn't industry buzz all that matters?

Pardack
11-13-2009, 11:38 AM
If you write a story that the right person wants to make into a movie then yes, it's enough.

Jason Reitman made Juno a labor of love. The rest is history.

roscoegino
11-13-2009, 12:00 PM
Well that's ultimately true, yes. But it's also about the stuff that happens in between points A and B.

12916studios
11-13-2009, 02:09 PM
Or as an ex-priest who spills the beans from the confessional...

Mind if I steal that one? Thanks.

umo
11-13-2009, 03:16 PM
Mind if I steal that one? Thanks.

All yours, studios.

I was thinking of dressing in a nun's habit and shop for lingerie at Victoria's Secret. Then wear the habit again during my IRS audit...with the lingerie underneath. Naturally, I wouldn't expose the lingerie--nuns don't do that-- only include the receipt in my deductible expenses. Of course I would blog about it. :)

But seriously...Marketing yourself requires some imagination. And who has a more active imagination than a writer? We should have the advantage in this regard.

Three solid stepping stones for marketing oneself are: controversy, sex & humor.

The danger is that one must live with the "rep" one has established. In most cases, it's worth it. I doubt Diablo Cody loses much sleep over negative comments by other writers. And the blogger with the funny Dad quotes--genius, BTW. But he might have difficulty selling a thriller rather than a comedy.

In any case, marketing won't do any good if your product is worthless. :o

The Road Warrior
11-13-2009, 03:33 PM
My crystal ball(s) say this is gonna turn into a veeeerrrry long thread...

Whether it's deserved or not, doesn't matter. What matters is getting there. Marketing yourself certainly helps.

To test the theory, one of you guys could start a blog talking about your experience as a male escort (to support yourself while you get discovered).

Or as an ex-priest who spills the beans from the confessional...
Or a sex therapist who is impotent and doesn't get what all the fuss is about...
Or a guy wanting to break the Guinness Record for most dates on Match.com...

etc., etc., etc.

I was thinking of starting a blog about a woman screenwriter passing herself off as a guy to get a writing gig. Hmmm. :shifty:


You'll never get through security Umo without the hairy legs.

umo
11-13-2009, 03:38 PM
You'll never get through security Umo without the hairy legs.

Good point, RW.

Nothing could entice me to grow out the leg and/or armpit hair. Nothing. :eek:

mlongton
11-14-2009, 12:48 AM
Diablo is no Charlie Kaufman, but I'm glad that she - and JUNO - got the buzz they did. This was anything but a high concept film and could easily have been marginalized. The fact that it was so successful may have been partly because of her backstory but it was just as much because she found an honest voice for her protag, one that audiences recognized as being real (if kind of irritating) probably for the first time since GHOST WORLD (a better movie). Let's face it, Hollywood is hopeless at presenting 15-18-year old females - most of them are still plastic Barbies who seem to be auditioning for Judd Apatow.

NikeeGoddess
11-14-2009, 06:52 AM
i agree. we should be glad that anyone who breaks out of a particular cookie-cutter mold succeeds. it should give you hope. however, i guess it won't if you are moldy yourself.

RyanJackson
11-14-2009, 07:18 AM
Diablo Cody is. She shouldn't be working in hollywood. You know who should be? A talented new writer that's who.

Well she is. Get over it. You sound bitter and jealous. Her success has nothing to do with your own or any other writer's.

elevenbulls
11-14-2009, 09:58 AM
Cody worked as a journalist for several years, wrote the blog based on her stripping experience, a book based on the blog, then screenplays - that's a lot of practice. Ditto this "S*** My Dad Says" guy who writes for Maxim or Details or whatever.

The spin on these stories becomes "they came out of nowhere." But the truth is they worked hard and got good. I think that's all you can do, and hope that something you write strikes a chord/generates buzz. But if you spend too much time looking for "buzz," and camp out on one idea that you think's going to do it, that's less time you're working at writing itself, fewer projects you're starting, etc.

NYNEX
11-14-2009, 10:06 AM
An angry old man once told me the only way to make money is to inherit it or to steal it.

In a since, Diablo Cody used the "stripper" background do get what she wanted, she "stole it". But that's the whole point of making money, you do what you have to do in order to get that cash coming in.

A lot of our greats CEOs made money in ways that arguably totally dishonest. Bill Gates bought the underlying technology for Windows from a guy for $20,000 (Without telling him that Microsoft already had a contract with IBM). Now Gates is a multiple billionaire.

Unless you're inheriting money from your parents, it's nearly impossible to make it big if you're a good little boy or girl.

Sinnycal
11-14-2009, 10:50 AM
You'll never get through security Umo without the hairy legs.

Ryan Seacrest does it, why can't she?

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Ryan Seacrest's legs are a national treasure!

Sinnycal
11-14-2009, 10:57 AM
Cody worked as a journalist for several years, wrote the blog based on her stripping experience, a book based on the blog, then screenplays - that's a lot of practice. Ditto this "S*** My Dad Says" guy who writes for Maxim or Details or whatever.

The spin on these stories becomes "they came out of nowhere." But the truth is they worked hard and got good. I think that's all you can do, and hope that something you write strikes a chord/generates buzz. But if you spend too much time looking for "buzz," and camp out on one idea that you think's going to do it, that's less time you're working at writing itself, fewer projects you're starting, etc.

That's a great point.

It seems like no matter how much explicit detail I include in my query letters (I have very buzzworthy masturbation practices), the bottom line is that they don't think anyone would be interested in watching my mockuautobiopic.

Ulysses
11-14-2009, 09:49 PM
Absolutely pointless thread.

That there's luck involved in life, and that some people can sell themselves better than others, is nothing new.

And who the hell should decide who's going to be successful?

The rest is whining...

RyanJackson
11-15-2009, 07:53 AM
Absolutely pointless thread.

That there's luck involved in life, and that some people can sell themselves better than others, is nothing new.

And who the hell should decide who's going to be successful?

The rest is whining...

Couldn't agree more.

kidcharlemagne
11-17-2009, 10:15 AM
You could argue that if you took away the titillation factor of the stripping, and the media attention that comes with it, you'd be left with a blogger from the Midwest who wrote an amusing coming of age movie that was well made and struck a cord. You wouldn’t have the “media sensation” that is Diablo Cody.

I agree.

tucsonray
11-17-2009, 10:40 AM
The spin on these stories becomes "they came out of nowhere." But the truth is they worked hard and got good.

When I was in Nashville the BUZZ was that it takes 10 years to become an overnight sensation. If course if you're a stripper [or now, if you're on American Idol] I think you can knock about 9 years off that observation. Here's to three chords and the truth!

NYNEX
11-17-2009, 10:43 AM
I agree.

But the fact is you do that the media attention that came as a part of the stripping, and it worked for Diablo. Run alternate realities about what would have happened with Diablo Cody if that hadn't happened or that hadn't happened all you guys want, it changes nothing. She made it.

kidcharlemagne
11-17-2009, 11:13 AM
But the fact is you do that the media attention that came as a part of the stripping, and it worked for Diablo. Run alternate realities about what would have happened with Diablo Cody if that hadn't happened or that hadn't happened all you guys want, it changes nothing. She made it.

If it wasn't for the stripping and name-change thing she would be an unknown, albeit a good, screenwriter. Period. That said, I liked Juno and I wish her all the best.

Landis26
11-17-2009, 11:25 AM
Wasn't Cody on Letterman after she wrote the book, way before she wrote Juno?

People in the industry pay way more attention to someone after they have been on something like Letterman or Leno. I mean the old Leno.:)

Madbandit
11-17-2009, 12:01 PM
Absolutely pointless thread.

That there's luck involved in life, and that some people can sell themselves better than others, is nothing new.

And who the hell should decide who's going to be successful?

The rest is whining...


Amen and right on, bro. Jealousy among scribes is stupid.

roscoegino
11-17-2009, 12:34 PM
Amen and right on, bro. Jealousy among scribes is stupid.

Correct. It's what separates those who love what they do from those who pretend to. People who love screenwriting don't have time to be jealous or envious. They know subconsciously that it's a debit. Instead, they simply... write.

NYNEX
11-17-2009, 09:36 PM
If it wasn't for the stripping and name-change thing she would be an unknown, albeit a good, screenwriter. Period. That said, I liked Juno and I wish her all the best.

But she is a known screenwriter, for whatever reason, even if it is because of the stripping and name change thing. The fact you have to keep pointing it out sounds like you have issues with it ,and are jealous of her success.

Whatever makes you successful, WORKS.

umo
11-18-2009, 08:35 AM
Just curious...research, ya' know...in case I need it for a script or cocktail conversation or to appear "worldly"...

Do you have to climb that pole to be a stripper? Is there an entrance exam for pole swinging/climbing/sliding or whatever?

What if you're a "bad" stripper? Are all strippers "good" strippers? What are the job requirements?

Can you LOL, roll your eyes or cringe while you strip or do you have to keep a straight face? What if you gag a little?

Do you get unemployment when the strip club fires you?

Just curious, mind you. :o

NikeeGoddess
11-18-2009, 09:50 AM
umo - you can get all the answer to your questions at the Exotic Dancers Union http://www.bayswan.org/EDAindex.html - tell em the NikeeGoddess sent you ;)

Laura Reyna
11-18-2009, 09:56 AM
Putting Cody in the mix really distracts form the real issue of marketing yourself as a screenwriter.

Marketing these days, inside & outside the industry, is rather important & I was hoping we could have a meaningful discussion about it. Oh well.

Maybe we can start up another thread later on, when this one dies off.

via negativa
11-18-2009, 11:36 AM
Putting Cody in the mix really distracts form the real issue of marketing yourself as a screenwriter.

I disagree. If anyone should be brought up during a discussion about writers and marketing, it's Diablo effing Cody. She is a case study in and of herself. I am not exactly a fan of her work (in fact, I think her real talent lies in self-promotion), but I'm just in total awe of this person when it comes to marketing.

Let's not forget that she majored in media studies and worked in advertising. She knows what she's doing.

maralyn
11-18-2009, 02:00 PM
Age of Diabolo Cody.

That's just sad.

via negativa
11-18-2009, 03:01 PM
Age of Diabolo Cody.

That's just sad.

Why is that sad?

Again, I'm not exactly a fan of her work, but this person has done more to raise the profile of the screenwriter in recent history than anyone else I can think of.

Someone in this thread used the phrase "the screenwriter as star" and that's very interesting because that is a phenomenon that DC is helping to usher in, whether purposefully or not.

I would go so far as to say that she is changing the game a bit. Even before her projects have any attachments, they're buzzed about based solely on her name and the general public not only recognizes that name, but they instantly decide whether or not they want to see that project. That is virtually unheard of for screenwriters.

maralyn
11-18-2009, 03:53 PM
I'm not going to enter into another debate about DC. I can't see whose profile she's raised. Maybe the profile of stripping screenwriters. But they're a very small minority.

umo
11-18-2009, 03:58 PM
umo - you can get all the answer to your questions at the Exotic Dancers Union http://www.bayswan.org/EDAindex.html - tell em the NikeeGoddess sent you ;)


Go, Nikee!

BTW, Can we disinfect the pole first before swinging on it? :o

umo
11-18-2009, 04:00 PM
Count me in when you're ready to start the thread, stvnlra.

It is a very important discussion. And so is branding. :)

Putting Cody in the mix really distracts form the real issue of marketing yourself as a screenwriter.

Marketing these days, inside & outside the industry, is rather important & I was hoping we could have a meaningful discussion about it. Oh well.

Maybe we can start up another thread later on, when this one dies off.

NYNEX
11-18-2009, 04:26 PM
A lot of women in show business, have at one point, been strippers, done porn, or even outright prostitutes. Lil Kim, Madonna, Vanessa Williams, Suzanne Summers,Eve, and who knows how many others.

It's well known. DC's only difference is a woman used the sex industry to make it big as a screenwriter, as opposed to the other ladies, who used it for acting or singing.

Sinnycal
11-18-2009, 04:55 PM
Count me in when you're ready to start the thread, stvnlra.

It is a very important discussion. And so is branding. :)

Plus, I heard she was a lesbian.

via negativa
11-18-2009, 05:18 PM
I think people are letting their dislike of her methods cloud their perception of her impact. I don't like the fact that she used sex to create buzz and found her brand, either. In fact, I think it's a total cop out and sets back women who are trying to be respected in Hollywood. It's gross, but when it comes down to it, it's no different than what many actresses do to break into the business. That's not to say that it's right, but if you're going to hold that against DC, you might as well hold it against every actress who appears in magazines semi-naked.

I don't think DC is smart or even considerate enough to use her newfound fame to help other writers or shed light onto the plight of the screenwriter, but the fact remains that all the attention she is getting allows her the opportunity. Again, that is virtually unheard of for screenwriters.

umo
11-18-2009, 06:11 PM
Plus, I heard she was a lesbian.


Check and mate.

writinglokwalo
02-06-2010, 06:27 PM
There is a new website in honor of Diablo Cody http://www.writelikecody.com

There's an interview on it about Shivnath Productions. The one producing Director's Cut. http://writelikecody.com/Spotlight.html

wcmartell
02-06-2010, 08:06 PM
If there's any buzz surrounding me, it means I'm being chased by a swarm of angry bees.

Diablo Cody figured out a way to brand herself and market herself. That opens the door so people will read scripts, but them it's up to the scripts. JUNO has memorable dialogue and a story that was at the right place at the right time and it was popular, critics liked it, and it won an award or two. The buzz didn't win the award. The buzz didn't get people to buy tickets. The buzz didn't make critics like it (critics tend to have minds of their own).

Marketing yourself - finding some way to get them to read the danged script - is not a bad thing.

Branding yourself - as long as it's not with a hot poker - is also a good thing. People need to be able to remember who you are. There are, who knows, a hundred thousand screenwriters maybe? How do you make sure they remember *you*? That was the subject of one of my new tips this year: http://www.scriptsecrets.net/tips/tip362.htm And branding and your choice of material and your skill set is connected. So branding is part of *writing* and an element of your screenplay.

Yeah - there are people who are "good in a room" and probably get all kinds of work because people *like them*. That's kind of like High School popularity - it sucks that someone else gets some breaks because they're the popular kid. But that's the way the world works, and it sucks if you're the fat geek kid who actually knows all of the answers. No one said life was fair. The "good in a room" people might be pissed off because you're "good on the page". You can complain or you can accept that the world is not always fair and do WHAT YOU CAN DO to get your scripts out there.

What is your brand?
What is your specialty?
How will they remember you?

- Bill (must now outrun the angry bees)

umo
02-07-2010, 10:28 AM
There is a new website in honor of Diablo Cody http://www.writelikecody.com

There's an interview on it about Shivnath Productions. The one producing Director's Cut. http://writelikecody.com/Spotlight.html

Ummm, I'm not getting the point of this site.

I think Cody is a fine writer, but not one I'd necessarily want to emulate. I'm assuming it's not a self-promotion tool, so what is the purpose?

If the purpose is to promote women writers, wouldn't it be better to include all (so few) successful women writers and discuss their struggles rather than to focus on one writer's style?

I dunno. I don't get it. :confused:

gayst
02-07-2010, 02:05 PM
"Whatever makes you successful, WORKS."

WOW.

Like Heidi The Hollywood Madam or Ken Lay or Britney Spears or Paris Hilton or OJ Simpson?

Almost any woman can use some kind of (usually deviant or forbidden)sexuality to make it in (primarily) a man's world.

There's nothing new about that.

Give the Cody Thang five years and then judge whether of not this is a good tactic for getting known.

Sexual gimmicks are sometimes momentarily effective.

And yes, people do win awards and become successful for reasons having nothing whatsoever to do with talent or the lack thereof.

And yes, I think a good question is : What do you want to be remembered for?

A writer with a cheap marketing gimmick? I dunno...there's a pretty high (historically-speaking) price to be paid for taking the low and easy road.

I agree with umo.

Peripeteia
02-07-2010, 02:08 PM
I recently saw JENNIFER'S BODY.

Hated the dialogue in this movie. Seemed like it was overly forced.

nic.h
02-07-2010, 02:25 PM
There's no doubt that because she's both a woman and a stripper, this has worked against her in the eyes of (male) screenwriters for the most part. Blatant self promotion is the stuff of Hollywood but apparently that's only OK if you're a bloke. Or, if you are a woman, you can't use your sexuality to advance yourself because everyone knows it's supposed to be used against you.

That's nature, right? :rolleyes:

Juno and The United States of Tara played really well outside the US. Yet, no one outside the US has a clue who Diablo Cody is (unless they're screenwriters on DD ;) ), let alone what she looks like or even that she's a stripper. Hell, a good number of people I know don't even know she was involved in Tara at all, so she must have tapped into something that works. If not in the US, then internationally.

But let's not examine what it is about her work that resonates for people. Let's just rip her apart as a person. That's way more useful for a screenwriting forum.

umo
02-07-2010, 02:38 PM
Agreed, nic.

If she were a man-whore, she'd be adored and worshipped. (Please guys, don't get any ideas).

My confusion is with the site itself--I'm not grasping the purpose.

But then again, I'm very confused lately. :confused: Especially around here.




Oh boy, I just had a visual of a DD'er swinging on stripper's pole then blowing the sucker up. :eek:

sherbetbizarre
02-07-2010, 02:52 PM
Juno and The United States of Tara played really well outside the US.

We're still waitng for Tara in the UK... how well did it do in America?

BattleDolphinZero
02-07-2010, 03:22 PM
A lot of you guys sound like haters. Wmartell makes really good points.

Look, if any of you...i mean ANY of you wrote a script that popped off the page like Juno, you'd get a break. The script would find a way to get you a break.

Would it be as big as Diabo's? Who knows. That stripper buzz only helped once that script had gone down the road to becoming a movie. It was on the black list, attracted a hot young director, got going...only THEN did the stripper buzz really help.

Sure in the room it's a fun thing to talk about but she probably wasn't in the room that much until Juno started ramping up.

BattleDolphinZero
02-07-2010, 03:23 PM
I should note that Mongo of the Robotard hated Juno. I speak only for me in this instance.

Mad Mat
02-08-2010, 05:54 AM
Diablo Cody.

Screenwriter.

Stripper.

Whatever.

Who the **** cares?

No seriously, who the **** cares? !!!

As Stvnlra said:


Putting Cody in the mix really distracts form the real issue of marketing yourself as a screenwriter.

Marketing these days, inside & outside the industry, is rather important & I was hoping we could have a meaningful discussion about it. Oh well.

Maybe we can start up another thread later on, when this one dies off.


Forget how Diablo created her 'buzz', because it was probably her managers and publicists that did that for her anyway (after all, that is part of their job).

Worry more about how a manager and (later) a publicist can sell you.

In my opinion, there are two distinct ways for a writer to create 'buzz':

Over several years, write several great scripts that get made into several great films so that you become the 'go to guy/gal' for the industry. The media eventually finds something interesting about you (e.g. your spec script sells for a world record) and then you get limited exposure in the trades.
You were the writer of a film that starts to get media attention and then the media suddenly discovers that you (the writer) are an extremely colourful person with an extremely colourful past. Boom. You get mass exposure.Now the real question is this: do you want industry 'buzz' or media 'buzz'? Naturally, the latter will only help the former, but if you truly want the latter, then you better start thinking about how to create that colourful past ...

... because in the media, only sex and scandals sell.

In fact, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to open a coffee shop in a house of ill-repute called StarFvcks, so that when one of the many writers that hang out there finally gets their big break, they can say that they wrote all their scripts in a brothel. The media will eat it up !!! :rolleyes:

And don't worry about Diablo, she'll either become the next Governor of California or go bankrupt and be forced back into stripping.

Either way, someone will then end up making 'The Diablo Cody Story'.

And once again, we can all shout "You the **** cares?!!!"

Mat.

thatcomedian
02-08-2010, 10:56 AM
There's no doubt that because she's both a woman and a stripper, this has worked against her in the eyes of (male) screenwriters for the most part. Blatant self promotion is the stuff of Hollywood but apparently that's only OK if you're a bloke. Or, if you are a woman, you can't use your sexuality to advance yourself because everyone knows it's supposed to be used against you.

That's nature, right? :rolleyes:



I've never participated in a Diablo Cody thread before and I think your posts are great most of the time but I think you have this one ass backwards.

Even on this seven page thread, only one guy bashed her. One other was maybe slightly anti-Diablo but two women were anti-Diablo.

If you go back and look at all the old Diablo threads they were the same. Even though this site is overwhelmingly male most of the bashing has been by female writers.

I haven't seen any of her films or tv shows but I'm pretty sure that I would like Juno and still look forward to seeing it.

A screenwriter is known to the general public and to quote Shirly MacLaine in Terms of Endearment, "That's fanf*ckingtastic"

I don't know why people get so livid over her, especially woman and I don't know why you are seeing bashing that isn't there and not seeing bashing that is there.

nic.h
02-08-2010, 01:38 PM
Even on this seven page thread, only one guy bashed her. One other was maybe slightly anti-Diablo but two women were anti-Diablo.

Are you sure they're not male? ;)

I could well be responding to the overall vibe here over the years, and the fact that many of the major Diablo/Juno haters no longer even comment about her. I shouldn't do that. (And they're doing the right thing by standing back if they have nothing positive to contribute.)

And, yes, there is often fallout from other women when a woman uses her sexuality in a way that isn't sanctioned by society (i.e. when used for her rather than against her, which apparently we're OK with since it happens every day). It's a real shame but you're right. It happens.

I would argue that this hasn't been the case here over the past years - that the majority of those who have posted against Cody have been men and have been quite vitriolic - but perhaps that's changing.

Either way, my point still stands. Overseas she doesn't exist as a persona or personality. No one knows who Diablo Cody is and you'd be hard pressed to find a single person in a room who could name the screenwriter of any film of recent years, let alone Juno. (Which is its own thread, right there.)

And yet the film did extremely well here and in other countries, and Tara seems to be going down well too. (Again, it certainly did here.)

Which means, simply, that she's written something (two things now) that resonate. It has nothing to do with her - not at the audience level internationally. It is all to do with her work. (The writing kind.)

I haven't seen Jennifer's Body and probably won't. It wouldn't matter anyway. Even if it's crap, I allow any writer a few misses before I give up on them. One failure means nothing.

scribova
02-08-2010, 02:50 PM
As a woman I can only applaud Diablo Cody. Sure, I don't agree with her exploiting her stripper past as a part of her quest to female empowerment, but I think she has definitely set a new 'voice' for teenage/young/female characters, as I can only guess Whip it (I know it's not Diablo's movie) got produced because of the success of Juno (both Mandate). What's next? She opened some kind of door.

Jennifer's Body is what it is, a slasher spoof movie. She never wrote that to win another Oscar. Did Juno as a movie deserve an Oscar? I don't know. But the screenplay certainly did, as it does jump of the page and is a 102 pages of entertainment. That same quirkiness didn't work in Jennifers Body, but then again, it's a horror movie, and for a horror movie is it kinda fresh. And isn't fresh what she is all about? People wanted to see a Diablo Cody slasher. And that's what they got.

BattleDolphinZero
02-09-2010, 05:13 AM
I didn't read this entire thread but there sure seemed to be a lot of hating on Diablo. Is that really all women?

Seshatcub
02-09-2010, 06:51 AM
Well, I'm a woman and I don't hate Diablo Cody. Why would I? Because she's a successful screenwriter? Because of her past? Because some deem that her success is unearned? So? That is completely irrelevant in my life. My feelings for Diablo Cody or any other screenwriter is not going to make my scripts sell more or less.

I read Jennifer's Body, didn't see the movie, and although the storyline is not my thing, I think it's easy to see why she continues to get hired. Her writing pops. There's an energy to it, a flow. And, again, even if the story is not what I would write, it is still fresh. For me, right there is the lesson to take.

So, in my view, there's no point wasting precious energy being venimous. What I can do though is harness any feelings of envy or "unfairness" and use them for a character in one of my own scripts.

Richmond Weems
02-09-2010, 06:53 AM
I hate Diablo Cody, but it's got nothing to do with her screenwriting career. I'm just a misogynist.

HH

odocoileus
02-09-2010, 07:20 AM
Here's a man who knows what it takes to get ahead. If he ever tires of the fashion biz, he's got a future in Hollywood. :rolling:


http://www.crazydaysandnights.net/2010/02/face-of-prada-nick-snider-tries-to-ummm.html



While being transported to be booked, Nick played the don't you know who I am card. The Smoking Gun (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2010/0204101model1.html) quotes Nick from the police report saying, "I am a very famous model." Yeah. Whatever. The policeman was just as impressed by this statement as me. Nick, apparently realizing he was not going to get off that way suggested to the policeman that if Nick got off then he would make sure the policeman got off also. "If you stop I'll suck your d**k and balls if you let me go." Well, that didn't work either, but Nick was determined that he was going to get off and he didn't care who he got off to get off. When they arrived at the jail, Nick offered the same deal to the person who booked him into jail. That person also declined. However, the policeman and the person doing the booking did add another charge of attempting to influence a public servant. Nick was released on $780 bail and is due back in court in a couple of weeks. Meanwhile for all of you who actually know who this guy is he will be at New York Fashion Week walking the runways.

BattleDolphinZero
02-09-2010, 09:18 AM
Just wanna reiterate, Diablo made it because of her writing. The media buzz was based on her past. Regardless of that, she'd still have a big career because A) her script made the blacklist, B) got made, and C) made a TON of money.

Geoff Alexander
02-09-2010, 09:51 AM
This entire Diablo discussion is stupid. She's talented. She's a success. Period.

And, yeah, I hated Jennifer's Body with a passion and seem to recall saying before it went in to production that it was going to fail.

lucidimage
02-09-2010, 10:09 AM
Look, if any of you...i mean ANY of you wrote a script that popped off the page like Juno, you'd get a break. The script would find a way to get you a break.

Would it be as big as Diabo's? Who knows. That stripper buzz only helped once that script had gone down the road to becoming a movie. It was on the black list, attracted a hot young director, got going...only THEN did the stripper buzz really help.

End of discussion.

SuperScribe
02-09-2010, 10:20 AM
Juno made an Etch A Sketch of a pee-pee, and nine months later a baby popped out of her bajingo. :)

Mad Mat
02-09-2010, 11:12 AM
Gotta say, if this is the way successful writers are treated, in a weird way, I'm kind of glad I'm not famous yet :cool:

And I would also like to echo SBScript's comment:


This entire Diablo discussion is stupid.


Mat.

P.S. Having said that, I still felt the need to post. Twice !!! :confused:

BattleDolphinZero
02-09-2010, 12:40 PM
Okay, obviously there is something different about Diablo Cody's success whether you think her script was good or not, but many, many people (writers and non-writers) not only hate Juno, but hate Diablo (the pen name may have something to do with it).

But there are countless successful writers which people have nothing but praise for. Charlie Kaufman is one of them. When Kaufman won an oscar for Eternal Sunshine there weren't people saying "are you kidding me, that script was garbaage." Aaron Sorkin, Andrew Kevin Walker, ect... countless others don't have works people resent. The difference is that most other talented writers made their names on works that aren't polarizing. There's something to be said for that.
People resent the fvck out of Sorkin.

Look, by the true definition of what "player hating is" people hated on Diablo. And when you say "there's something to be said for that" are you implying that in some ways she has it coming? Or is undeserving of her career?

I'll admit that the second your name gets any kind of buzz, you're gonna catch hate...but that don't make it right. Her name caught a ton of hate because she had a ton of buzz...but that don't make it right.

What seems retarded about the early pages of this thread is that people seemed to think Juno was crap and the only reason (or primary reason) she made it was because of her "past." That's just wrong. Factually.

What i saw was jealousy in many of the posts. I literally saw people saying a version of 'she didn't deserve to make it and now she's taking up space for someone who does...me.'

Retarded.

prescribe22
02-09-2010, 01:40 PM
What i saw was jealousy in many of the posts. I literally saw people saying a version of 'she didn't deserve to make it and now she's taking up space for someone who does...me.'

Agree 110%.

nathanq
02-09-2010, 02:23 PM
People resent the fvck out of Sorkin.


Really? REALLY??

Who resents Sorkin? Who can deny that the guy isn't talented and above the rest like they do with Diablo Cody. He didn't get his name out there by anything but work. Are there people out there who saw A Few Good Men, or Charlie Wilson's War and thought, god that movie was awful. How many times have we seen the plot of a young glass eyed lawyer defending marines accused of murder who are covering it up to......ect.. NO. He created some of the most iconic lines in ALL of film. Everyone quotes a Few Good Men. And besides he made his name as a playwright first anyway, not by shedding his clothes although he may have been a whore too behind the scenes. We may never know.

Personally, I am hard pressed to meet anyone that likes Juno, and most people absolutely despise it. Most people also hate Diablo Cody for a variety of reasons which I need not get into. That's a pretty rare thing for a screenwriter, and there's definitely something not right with your work if that happens (and if there are threads like this).

Even if you like it you have to admit that the story of Juno is not at all original. And mainly that it could have easily aired as a Lifetime T.V. movie and nobody would have flinched.

prescribe22
02-09-2010, 02:40 PM
Sounds like you know mostly jealous fanboys, nathan.

Maybe you should try venturing into the deeper end of the social pool.

SuperScribe
02-09-2010, 05:29 PM
I thought Ellen Page wrote Juno. :confused:

Richmond Weems
02-09-2010, 07:40 PM
Wait, wait...what's a Juno?

Oh, and I hate all male screenwriters, too. That's just 'cause I'm a misanthrope.

HH

wcmartell
02-09-2010, 07:51 PM
Really? REALLY??

Who resents Sorkin?

I know a handful of writers - one from my Friday night movie group - who think Sorkin is a no talent whose characters all sound alike and writes bad dialogue and too much of it.

Name the successful writer and there are other writers who do not like their writing for some personal reason. Often when you ask why, you get a purely subjective answer rather than one that can be supported by some sort of "evidence".

I have no idea whether this guy resents Sorkin or just doesn't like his writing, but he's not the only one I've met. I think if you go back to when Sorkin was having problems on WEST WING you'll find a lot of people who wanted him off the show. At least some of them worked for the studio, because he *was* replaced.

If Cody were just ****, she'd have vanished by now.

But even if she is just ****? So what? She found a way in, now it is your turn to find a way in.

- Bill (wants to be known as "just a penis", but will probably be known as "just a complete dick")

BattleDolphinZero
02-09-2010, 09:32 PM
I know a handful of writers - one from my Friday night movie group - who think Sorkin is a no talent whose characters all sound alike and writes bad dialogue and too much of it.

Name the successful writer and there are other writers who do not like their writing for some personal reason. Often when you ask why, you get a purely subjective answer rather than one that can be supported by some sort of "evidence".

I have no idea whether this guy resents Sorkin or just doesn't like his writing, but he's not the only one I've met. I think if you go back to when Sorkin was having problems on WEST WING you'll find a lot of people who wanted him off the show. At least some of them worked for the studio, because he *was* replaced.

If Cody were just ****, she'd have vanished by now.

But even if she is just ****? So what? She found a way in, now it is your turn to find a way in.

- Bill (wants to be known as "just a penis", but will probably be known as "just a complete dick")

This.

BattleDolphinZero
02-09-2010, 09:38 PM
Personally, I am hard pressed to meet anyone that likes Juno, and most people absolutely despise it. Most people also hate Diablo Cody for a variety of reasons which I need not get into. That's a pretty rare thing for a screenwriter, and there's definitely something not right with your work if that happens (and if there are threads like this).

Even if you like it you have to admit that the story of Juno is not at all original. And mainly that it could have easily aired as a Lifetime T.V. movie and nobody would have flinched.

This post is so wrong, I wanna be careful not to get bogged down. Your hubris in assuming your opinion--or the opinions of your friends--is all encompassing is noteworthy, though. You're "hard pressed to find someone who liked Juno?" Really....

Start with the Blacklist. She got on it when it meant something. Do you understand that to get on the blacklist (at least back then) meant she beat out 100s of the best writers in Hollywood? Your opinion is trumped by that. She must have done something right.

Then her movie comes out and crushes at the box office yet you have the gall to diminish it as Lifetime caliber. Honestly, your arrogance is shocking to me. The people spoke. They loved that movie which was a writer-centric movie.

Look, I don't wanna sound disrespectful but you should check that ego.

nathanq
02-09-2010, 10:07 PM
This post is so wrong, I wanna be careful not to get bogged down. Your hubris in assuming your opinion--or the opinions of your friends--is all encompassing is noteworthy, though. You're "hard pressed to find someone who liked Juno?" Really....

Then her movie comes out and crushes at the box office yet you have the gall to diminish it as Lifetime caliber. Honestly, your arrogance is shocking to me. The people spoke. They loved that movie which was a writer-centric movie.

Look, I don't wanna sound disrespectful but you should check that ego.

Ego? I'm not stating personal opinions, I'm stating facts. It's fine if you like Juno ect.., everyone has tastes, why do you seem to go to personal attacks to try and defend this film when you're skirting around the issue--

Like it or not, Juno is sharply polarizing. Now that's not a good thing either way. When many people despise your film, there's not something right with it. Even if there are people who like it, if there are people on the other end who despise it especially in droves like they do for Juno and Diablo. There's something up. There are a lot of reasons for this. Either way it's a strange and rare thing.

I'm not saying that her dialogue wasn't rich, and snappy, but the plot of a teenager who is impregnated and decides to give the baby up for adoption is a quintessential Lifetime T.V. movie. Come on. Obviously you like the movie, and that's fine. But it's not an original premise. Execution is fine, but the premise isn't earth shattering.

And the "it made money" thing never works. Because that doesn't denote quality in America anymore--- Transformers 2, ect...???? Okay it has it's fans, but that's not the point of this thread. This thread is about why Diablo Cody is known now, and why there are people who hate her and Juno... probably because she is so well known for odd reasons.

I'm not going to get into this, but the people who know Godard, DiSica, Jarmsuch, ect.. really despise the film Juno for many reasons. That was who I was talking about for the most part, although clearly many outside a "cineaste circle" wouldn't like it as well. Even if you like it, you know that's its not where near the caliber of a classic (in terms of autuer masterpieces). Sure some people like the story, but come on just give it up.

prescribe22
02-09-2010, 10:46 PM
Like it or not, Juno is sharply polarizing. Now that's not a good thing either way. When many people despise your film, there's not something right with it.

Terry Gilliam's BRAZIL is sharply polarizing. There are many who despise it. Apparently you're saying there's something not right with it.

Same can be said for the following:

A CLOCKWORK ORANGE.
SYNECDOCHE NY.
THIN RED LINE
AMELIE

Those are all polarizing movies. Many people did not like them.

So by your logic, all those films have something deeply wrong with them.

I personally disagree with your logic. I think the folks who like those films have the right to their opinion regardless of what others may think.

Nothing wrong with polarizing movies. :)

MrEarbrass
02-09-2010, 11:03 PM
Ego? I'm not stating personal opinions, I'm stating facts.

"Me and my friends think x" is a fact only in the loosest sense of the word.

Like it or not, Juno is sharply polarizing. Now that's not a good thing either way. When many people despise your film, there's not something right with it.

Many films with personality are polarizing. There's nothing wrong with that. Do you think that Godard or DiSica or Jarmusch ever worried that their films might be polarizing? In fact, I bet they hoped their films might be described as polarizing because that would mean their work was eliciting strong reactions.

I'm not saying that her dialogue wasn't rich, and snappy, but the plot of a teenager who is impregnated and decides to give the baby up for adoption is a quintessential Lifetime T.V. movie.

Sure. So is the T.V. Guide summary of "Kramer vs. Kramer" and "To Kill a Mockingbird" and plenty of Jarmusch films. The reason Juno wasn't a Lifetime movie is that the writing was good enough to attract a studio, a hot young director, and a stellar cast. That is not a knock against the writer... that's a huge compliment.

And the "it made money" thing never works. Because that doesn't denote quality in America anymore--- Transformers 2, ect...????

Do you really not see the difference between the box office success of a special-effects laden summer blockbuster and Juno? How many other movies in Juno's genre can you name that have been successful over the last five years?

I'm not going to get into this, but the people who know Godard, DiSica, Jarmsuch, ect.. really despise the film Juno for many reasons. That was who I was talking about for the most part, although clearly many outside a "cineaste circle" wouldn't like it as well. Even if you like it, you know that's its not where near the caliber of a classic (in terms of autuer masterpieces). Sure some people like the story, but come on just give it up.

Thank you for presuming that anyone who likes Juno must be unfamiliar with Godard and friends. Speaking for the unwashed masses, I have to say that while I'm not enough of an a$$hole to consider myself to be part of a "cineaste circle," I do have a passing familiarity with film and--more importantly--the basic tenets of logic. Which means that I understand that something doesn't have to be an autuer masterpiece to avoid my derision.

prescribe22
02-09-2010, 11:24 PM
If anyone wants to see what a "cineaste circle" looks like, Google "Lemon Party".

:devil:

Ulysses
02-09-2010, 11:56 PM
(...) the Blacklist. She got on it when it meant something. Do you understand that to get on the blacklist (at least back then) meant she beat out 100s of the best writers in Hollywood?

What's wrong with the Blacklist? Why is it worth less now?

Seshatcub
02-10-2010, 08:47 AM
Wait, wait...what's a Juno?



I know! I know! A Juno is a Canadian music award http://junoawards.ca/, kinda like a Grammy. :D

SuperScribe
02-10-2010, 01:11 PM
If anyone wants to see what a "cineaste circle" looks like, Google "Lemon Party".

:devil:


Heh.

emily blake
02-10-2010, 01:49 PM
I hate Diablo Cody, but that's only because I'm totally jello.

SuperScribe
02-10-2010, 01:51 PM
I have never hated another human being in my life. I wonder what it feels like.

Laura Reyna
02-10-2010, 01:52 PM
I guess this thread is hot again...:D

NO. It hasn't been women who've been criticizing Cody the most here. The harshest criticism has come from some of the men-- the ones who can't stand her writing & think she's overrated, etc.

I've taken shots at her but not b/c of her writing. I'm not a big fan, but she obviously has some talent. I don't get on her for that. There are plenty of writers who I don't particularly like & who others think are writing gods. I've criticised Kevin Smith more for his writing.

She would have made it on her own (without Novick) even if she hadn't exploited the whole stripper thing-- if she'd tried. People think she writes funny.

I just think using the stripper thing to get attention was retarded. But I think strippers in general are sad & retarded...

The impression I get from reading some of her recent interviews is the feeling that if she had to do it again, she would do some things differently. I know I wish she had done some things differently. So few female screenwriters get any kind of media attention that I think it's important that we put our best foot forward. We need to give the impression to the world that we can be taken seriously, & can be judged on the merits of our work. The stripper thing gets in the way & detracts from Cody's talent.

Sorry if I come off as judgmental, but that's the way I feel about it.

:)

BattleDolphinZero
02-10-2010, 02:01 PM
What's wrong with the Blacklist? Why is it worth less now?
I don't know for sure, but people say now it's lost credibility. I don't wanna believe that since we got on it, but that's what I hear.

In general the movies high on the blacklist are projects that have been set up and are close to going. Several already have casts and start dates. So those projects are automatically guaranteed a certain amount of votes because those execs wanna make their projects look good. Blahblah blah. Again, that's what i hear.

My point is, when Diablo was on it, i think it was closer to truly being "a list of execs and /producers favorite unproduced scripts."

stvnlra, I kind of agree with you. The stripper stuff might have gotten in the way. At first it seemed brilliant but then it became "the thing."

Live and learn.

nathanq
02-10-2010, 02:32 PM
Terry Gilliam's BRAZIL is sharply polarizing. There are many who despise it. Apparently you're saying there's something not right with it.

Same can be said for the following:

A CLOCKWORK ORANGE.
SYNECDOCHE NY.
THIN RED LINE
AMELIE

Those are all polarizing movies. Many people did not like them.

So by your logic, all those films have something deeply wrong with them.

I personally disagree with your logic. I think the folks who like those films have the right to their opinion regardless of what others may think.

Nothing wrong with polarizing movies. :)

But there is no one who can deny the sheer originality, and artistic legitimacy of those films. Around the world there are countless college classrooms who have units on Brazil in both film, and philosophy, it even came up in a psychology class of mine many years back, but they aren't examining Juno, and more importantly there aren't droves who deny Brazil's quality. Whether you understand the film or not is different. Also every film you listed there was made by an autuer who is/was well established. Not on spec. There are no people out there who can even come close to saying that Kubrick didn't earn his position like they do with Diablo. Not even close.

And the reasons those films are polarizing are different than the reasons that Juno is polarizing. Every film you listed there is incredible dense. And every film you listed has no discernible log-line, and no clear plot because they are dense and not easy to comprehend, unlike Juno. The very reason they are polarizing is completely different than Juno. People are not only saying they didn't like Juno and it was of poor quality, which is understandable of any film, but they're saying that Diablo Cody doesn't have much talent and has built herself on "buzz" from a pen name, being a stripper, ect...

Is there anyone who can argue that Terrence Malick isn't talented?(whether or not you liked TRL), okay what about Kubrick? Yeah, I didn't find any threads here stating that Kubrick built his name on his stripper past. He built his name on one thing, like it or not, sheer originality and brutal talent which have made his fllms so unforgettable and original that he built his name on that alone and nothing else. In fact, not much is known about either Kubrik's and especially Malick's past of personal life. Case and point. There's not "buzz" around them other than their brutally unforgettable films.

SuperScribe
02-10-2010, 02:37 PM
Not everybody thinks Charlie Kaufman is brilliant:

http://www.observer.com/2008/o2/could-synecdoche-new-york-be-worst-movie-ever-yes

nathanq
02-10-2010, 02:47 PM
Sure. So is the T.V. Guide summary of "Kramer vs. Kramer" and "To Kill a Mockingbird" and plenty of Jarmusch films. The reason Juno wasn't a Lifetime movie is that the writing was good enough to attract a studio, a hot young director, and a stellar cast. That is not a knock against the writer... that's a huge compliment.
[QUOTE]

Stellar cast? It was cast with T.V. actors and unknowns other than Jennifer Garner. And it was given a budget by the studio of $6 million dollars. That's hardly a commitment for a major studio.

Okay, it got a theatrical release, but it could have very easily just been a T.V. movie because of it's premise, then we sure as hell wouldn't be debating Diablo Cody's "buzz factor".

And I would say that Jarmusch is soooo far from anything that's commercial enough to be made for T.V., or even air on most T.V. stations for that matter. He's practically the god of the indie scene. And why didn't he get the same"buzz" around his name? Why aren't there people debating whether or not he deserves to be where he is? hmmm....

[QUOTE]
Do you really not see the difference between the box office success of a special-effects laden summer blockbuster and Juno? How many other movies in Juno's genre can you name that have been successful over the last five years?


Nick and Norah's Infinite playlist
Waitress
My Big Fat Greek Wedding
Baby Mama
27 Dresses
Garden State
500 Days of Summer
13 Going on 30
John Tucker Must Die
Just Married
.....

I could go on, but it's just a waste of time at this point.

wcmartell
02-10-2010, 02:48 PM
But there is no one who can deny the sheer originality, and artistic legitimacy of those films.

Dude, you just keep digging the hole deeper and deeper!

- Bill

instant_karma
02-10-2010, 02:59 PM
I just keep getting sucked back in and knocking my head against a wall.

This explains much...

SuperScribe
02-10-2010, 03:15 PM
Here are Roger Ebert's thoughts on A Clockwork Orange:

http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/19720211/REVIEWS/202110301/1023

MrEarbrass
02-10-2010, 03:20 PM
Stellar cast? It was cast with T.V. actors and unknowns other than Jennifer Garner.

Wait, you're arguing on behalf of the value of indy movies, yet your definition of a "stellar" cast has to do with the bankability of the stars? Do you seriously not see the contradiction in that? Page, Cera, Bateman, Janney, Simmons, Thirlby and Wilson represent a remarkable collection of talented actors. Even your auteur heroes might have enjoyed working with them.

Okay, it got a theatrical release, but it could have very easily just been a T.V. movie because of it's premise, then we sure as hell wouldn't be debating Diablo Cody's "buzz factor".

143 million dollar box on a 7.5 million budget is a breathtaking success. It's the kind of success that propelled Matt Damon and Ben Affleck into international stardom. Is it so hard to understand why the writer of that movie might have gotten some buzz, whether she was a stripper or not?

And I would say that Jarmusch is soooo far from anything that's commercial enough to be made for T.V., or even air on most T.V. stations for that matter.

My point was that when you minimize the plot of these kinds of movies they often sound like they could be made-for-TV. To take Jarmusch (plot summaries from imdb:

Dead Man: On the run after murdering a man, accountant William Blake encounters a strange Indian named "Nobody" who prepares him for his journey into the spiritual world.

Broken Flowers: As the devoutly single Don Johnston is dumped by his latest girlfriend, he receives an anonymous pink letter informing him that he has a son who may be looking for him. The situation causes Don to examine his relationships with women instead of moving on to the next one, and he embarks on a cross-country search for his old flames who might possess clues to the mystery at hand.

Those sound a little like Lifetime movies, do they not?


He's practically the god of the indie scene. And why didn't he get the same"buzz" around his name? Why aren't there people debating whether or not he deserves to be where he is? hmmm....

Maybe because people react to commercial and artistic success in different ways. Maybe because skinny-jean-wearing, auteur-citing jackholes resent anything that obtains commercial success. Maybe because it's easier to decide that Cody is popular because she exploited being a stripper rather than acknowledging that she has a powerful voice that drew a staggering number of people to the theater to see a little film.

Broken Flowers was made for about 10 million and made 13 million in the US. Juno was made for 7.5 and made 143. Is it really surprising that one of those films drew attention beyond the indy scene (and an accompanying backlash)? Frankly, I have no idea what you're arguing. As I said before, there's a lot of room between auteur masterpieces and trash.

I could go on, but it's just a waste of time at this point.

On this point, we agree.

ducky1288
02-10-2010, 03:37 PM
I always wonder if Cody ever said "I want to be so famous one day that I'll have 11 pages of posts at Done Deal dedicated to my talent or lack there of";)


Okay I didn't read any of the past 11 pages so feel free to ignore this :p

Geoff Alexander
02-10-2010, 03:57 PM
Diablo Cody is a better writer than Kevin Smith, by far.

:mpopcorn:

Scripted77
02-10-2010, 04:36 PM
Diablo Cody is a better writer than Kevin Smith, by far.

:mpopcorn:

Not sure if you're serious, but I completely agree with this.

Geoff Alexander
02-10-2010, 04:51 PM
Not sure if you're serious, but I completely agree with this.

I am.

Typewriter
02-10-2010, 05:05 PM
Broken Flowers was made for about 10 million and made 13 million in the US. Juno was made for 7.5 and made 143. Is it really surprising that one of those films drew attention beyond the indy scene (and an accompanying backlash)? Frankly, I have no idea what you're arguing. As I said before, there's a lot of room between auteur masterpieces and trash.



Didn't this guy lift the entire script for Broken Flowers from someone, and also hasn't he been quoted as saying if you have to steal it just steal it?? (Would like to know)

wcmartell
02-10-2010, 09:31 PM
Diablo Cody is a better writer than Kevin Smith, by far.

Okay - but I don't want to see Kevin Smith dancing naked on a pole in order to get enough buzz to be thought of as better.

I've already seen *way* too much of Jason Mewes, who now lives in my neighborhood and hangs out at my local Starbucks. "Hey, dude, I've seen your nuts and a-hole on screen!"

- Bill

Kacy
02-14-2010, 07:17 PM
But I think strippers in general are sad & retarded ... Sorry if I come off as judgmental, but that's the way I feel about it.

There are a quarter of a million strippers in the US currently. So, it's safe to say that yes, some are probably sad & retarded, also that some others are brilliant, talented, enlightened and overall warm, pleasant, engaging people to be around.

It's also safe to say that sweeping generalizations disparaging a group of widely diverse types of people does, in fact, make you judgmental. Good of you to own that.

odocoileus
02-14-2010, 11:18 PM
Diablo Cody is a better writer than Kevin Smith, by far.

:mpopcorn:

But Kevin's got bigger boobs. :D


Bigger, hairier boobs.

Laura Reyna
02-15-2010, 12:51 PM
There are a quarter of a million strippers in the US currently. So, it's safe to say that yes, some are probably sad & retarded, also that some others are brilliant, talented, enlightened and overall warm, pleasant, engaging people to be around.

It's also safe to say that sweeping generalizations disparaging a group of widely diverse types of people does, in fact, make you judgmental. Good of you to own that.

Yeah, that's right. Repeat: Most strippers are sad and stupid...

Want me to repeat it again? Just say the word.

umo
02-15-2010, 02:25 PM
Yeah, that's right. Repeat: Most strippers are sad and stupid...

Want me to repeat it again? Just say the word.
:rolling:

BattleDolphinZero
02-15-2010, 02:53 PM
Yeah, that's right. Repeat: Most strippers are sad and stupid...

Want me to repeat it again? Just say the word.
This applies to most people period.

nic.h
02-15-2010, 03:31 PM
Yeah, that's right. Repeat: Most strippers are sad and stupid...

Want me to repeat it again? Just say the word.

Actually, the blokes who pay to see them are way more stupid and triply sad, but since most of them rarely own up to it, it's harder for us to judge.

Oh wait... :rolleyes:

prescribe22
02-15-2010, 03:46 PM
Yeah, that's right. Repeat: Most strippers are sad and stupid...

Want me to repeat it again? Just say the word.

Clearly you spend a lot of time in strip clubs.

Bravo!!!

odocoileus
02-15-2010, 07:23 PM
Yeah, that's right. Repeat: Most strippers are sad and stupid...

Want me to repeat it again? Just say the word.

Now that's just not fair.

I'm sad and stupid, and no one ever paid me to take off my clothes.

wcmartell
02-15-2010, 08:37 PM
I just wish they were stupid enough to date me.

- Bill

Madbandit
02-15-2010, 08:59 PM
Diablo Cody is a better writer than Kevin Smith, by far.

I like them both. Sue me.

Kacy
02-16-2010, 06:50 AM
Perhaps someone could direct me to the forum for grown up screenwriters?

emily blake
02-16-2010, 08:59 AM
One time my friend got a stripper to work a party we were having for a friend who was about to go into the Navy. They made her give everyone in the room a lapdance.

As she smushed her boob into my face, I asked her what being a stripper was like. She was quite nice. I took notes in case I ever wanted to write a screenplay about a stripper.

She didn't seem sad or stupid, but she did have huge squishy boobs.

Kevan
02-16-2010, 10:09 AM
Perhaps someone could direct me to the forum for grown up screenwriters?

http://www.twoadverbs.com/

Founded by writer/director Jacinthe Dessureault

Two Adverbs is a screenwriting co-op which raison d'ętre is to provide its members feedback on work in progress, first drafts and polished material, and throw ideas around in a secure environment.

The key words are "in a secure environment"...

The Shutter Island of screenwriting..

Just kidding.. :D

umo
02-16-2010, 10:27 AM
Perhaps someone could direct me to the forum for grown up screenwriters?

Is there such a breed?

I thought they were an urban legend like werewolves, zombies, vampires.

cliffhanger
02-16-2010, 12:21 PM
I read Jennifer's Body, didn't see the movie, and although the storyline is not my thing, I think it's easy to see why she continues to get hired. Her writing pops. There's an energy to it, a flow. And, again, even if the story is not what I would write, it is still fresh. For me, right there is the lesson to take.


Isn´t it in the end all about the writing? Would she get hired if she was unable to work with other people and write the stuff they need?

Cody seems like an interesting, capable person with a unique voice. Cody proves the point how important it is for writers to stand out by writing differently. The plot of Juno has been done before, but her execution made it recognizable and fresh. I don´t feel I´m living "in the age of Diablo Cody"
though.

More of an age of blogs, facebook, twitter where writers can exhibit their ideas, get attention for it and break into screenwriting.

The Sh+tmydadsays reminds a lot of The Simpsons episode where Bart put Homer as angry Dad on the net. It´s a the old grumpy man in the age of twitter followed by over 1 million people. Can hardly be ignored by the industry.

What´s the lesson here?

Maybe being or appearing real pays of and you don´t need a book deal, an agent or even a script to get noticed as long as your writing attracts people.

Not the worst news from a writer´s p.o.v cause you have more channels to communicate your ideas.

SuperScribe
02-16-2010, 12:53 PM
The key words are "in a secure environment"...

The Shutter Island of screenwriting..

:rolling:

Re: strippers:

I like naked boobies. :ernie:

sc111
02-16-2010, 08:34 PM
I read the very first draft of Juno. Ex-manager sent it to me. Yes, there was the D.C. voice. And, yes, it was loaded with newbie blips. However, my first impression was the script would live or die on the strength of the actress cast as Juno. And I think I was right -- because Ellen Page brought simpatico to the character that a lesser actress would most likely fumble.

Personally, I think Ellen Page deserves a lot more cred for the success of Juno than she gets.

And I still don't think the script deserved an Oscar, considering the scripts it was up against. If that makes me bitter so be it.

jyangwrites
02-16-2010, 08:39 PM
And I still don't think the script deserved an Oscar, considering the scripts it was up against. If that makes me bitter so be it.

I definitely agree that Ellen Page (as well as Bateman) helped make Juno what it is.

I also shed a tear for Michael Clayton that year -- I wish it had at least won for best screenplay.

NYNEX
02-19-2010, 02:09 PM
Either way, my point still stands. Overseas she doesn't exist as a persona or personality. No one knows who Diablo Cody is and you'd be hard pressed to find a single person in a room who could name the screenwriter of any film of recent years, let alone Juno. (Which is its own thread, right there.)


Some filmmakers are writer/directors like Spike Lee, Quentin Tarantino, Tyler Perry, are pretty well known in recent years. There are screenwriters publically known to the public, mainly when they direct. Or some novelists who write the screenplays to books made from their films are also known.

NYNEX
02-19-2010, 02:12 PM
And I still don't think the script deserved an Oscar, considering the scripts it was up against. If that makes me bitter so be it.

Of course, everyone who wins an Oscar "deserves" an oscar. The oscar is the industry's way of awarding those who IT chooses to award. Public selection has nothing to do with it.

By the way, I'm not supporting or siding with the industry, but an oscar doesn't necessarily mean quality, and you've all sorts of internal industry politics going on behind the scenes.

Laura Reyna
02-19-2010, 03:23 PM
Cody is not my fav writer... but there are other successful writers that I don't like. I haven't been able to read more than a few pages of Tony Gilroy's work. Something about this writing style turns me off. But there's no denying some people think he's great. Whatever. We all have different tastes.

But even if you don't like Cody's work, you can still learn from her success. Here's stuff I've learned...

1. The internet, as a selling tool, WORKS. The "Shlt My Dad Says" guy & the JULIE/JULIA blog writer are other examples. There are probably a few more examples of writers/filmmakers getting attention via the internet.

2. People in the industry are really impressed with showy writing. Lord knows JUNO as a story is not that great or original, but the dialogue & the writer's style made it entertaining. And that's something critics seem to miss-- a lot of people find the JUNO (the script & movie) entertaining.

3. Sex still sells. When you're a woman, going on talk shows & talking about how much you love taking your clothes off will get you lots of attention.

4. It's advantageous to have a savvy, well-connected manager who sells you & your writing.

5. Audiences are open to a wider range of movie experiences than studios think. They like small, emotional, entertaining movies. They don't always want explosions & spectacle.


And Cody is just one writer that we can learn from... every time a script is sold it's an opportunity to learn something.

:)

sc111
02-19-2010, 03:33 PM
1. The internet, as a selling tool, WORKS. The "Shlt My Dad Says" guy & the JULIE/JULIA blog writer are other examples. There are probably a few more examples of writers/filmmakers getting attention via the internet.


:)

The blog thing. I'm toying with the idea of posting pages of one of my scripts on a blog in a serialized format.

That or, once finished, adapting it to a novella, and post that in a serialized format and of course let everyone know the script is available.

Why One
02-19-2010, 06:13 PM
Diablo Cody also won a Golden Globe, BAFTA, and WGA Award in addition to the Oscar for JUNO. And it was 2nd place in the 2005 Black-(most liked)-list. If I nabbed them achievements, I'd think I've written a pretty darn good screenplay.

kintnerboy
02-23-2010, 12:32 AM
Negative opinions of successful hollywood writers are 100% jealousy. Nothing more.

The three most hated writers in Hollywood are:

1. the former stripper
2. the former video store clerk
3. the former quick stop clerk

(this is the reason that the longest threads in Done Deal history have the names Diablo Cody, Quentin Tarrantino or Kevin Smith in the title).

The backlash is completely proportionate to the perceived lack-of-dues-paying or overnight-success (or "It should have been me") of all three (which, in retrospect, is even more ridiculous, because two of the three actually spent their own money to produce their first features, making them even more worthy of respect, not scorn).

Jealousy is such a childish reaction, it's actually kind of embarrassing to watch.

wcmartell
02-23-2010, 01:30 AM
The blog thing. I'm toying with the idea of posting pages of one of my scripts on a blog in a serialized format.

This gal is one of my FB friends, and is doing a *great* job of establishing an interesting self-brand and getting it out there:
http://caroleparker.blogspot.com/

I think just having the blog does nothing - I have a blog, big deal - I think it's having that unique voice that excites people. The hook.

- Bill

Laura Reyna
02-23-2010, 12:13 PM
This gal is one of my FB friends, and is doing a *great* job of establishing an interesting self-brand and getting it out there:
http://caroleparker.blogspot.com/

I think just having the blog does nothing - I have a blog, big deal - I think it's having that unique voice that excites people. The hook.

- Bill


I agree with Bill. It's really the unique hook that gets the attention, not necessarily the venue. Not everyone with a blog is going to get noticed-- you need that unique voice/hook. Cody (& others) had that.

Blogs & the internet are just like everything else-- it all dpends on the quality of the content. Is the content entertaining enough to get noticed?

Here's another screenwriter-- DD member Scripted77-- putting the internet to good use:

http://hollywoodroaster.wordpress.com/

sc111
02-23-2010, 03:30 PM
This gal is one of my FB friends, and is doing a *great* job of establishing an interesting self-brand and getting it out there:
http://caroleparker.blogspot.com/

I think just having the blog does nothing - I have a blog, big deal - I think it's having that unique voice that excites people. The hook.

- Bill

Yeah - this is what I'm talking about. Thanks for the link. :)