Raiders of the None Arc

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  • Raiders of the None Arc

    Hello, hello.

    I thought it apt to revisit that old favourite: films without character arcs - not the central or supporting characters - and toss in some newer titles along the way. This is particularly apt when a major criticism of amateur scripts is the lack of an arc.

    The Princess Bride
    Escape From New York
    Reservoir Dogs
    Taken
    The Wolf of Wall Street
    John Wick


    These films are not like the brilliant Paddington, who doesn't arc yet changes those around him, yet they still work brilliantly and are revered. Why?
    M.A.G.A.

  • #2
    Re: Raiders of the None Arc

    Originally posted by SundownInRetreat View Post
    Hello, hello.

    I thought it apt to revisit that old favourite: films without character arcs - not the central or supporting characters - and toss in some newer titles along the way. This is particularly apt when a major criticism of amateur scripts is the lack of an arc.

    The Princess Bride
    Escape From New York
    Reservoir Dogs
    Taken
    The Wolf of Wall Street
    John Wick


    These films are not like the brilliant Paddington, who doesn't arc yet changes those around him, yet they still work brilliantly and are revered. Why?
    The story premise of each title listed is inherently interesting so that readers and audiences (one in the same, truly) want to know the outcome irrespective of whether the main characters or any characters grow or change over the course of the story.
    Last edited by Clint Hill; 08-03-2020, 03:59 AM.
    “Nothing is what rocks dream about” ― Aristotle

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    • #3
      Re: Raiders of the None Arc

      Originally posted by SundownInRetreat View Post
      ...films without character arcs... revered. Why?
      "Films", as opposed to "scripts"!

      Because the scripts for few if any of these you mentioned would have made it past today's "readers", with their checklists and rules and limited imaginations.

      I just wanted to get that in there before this thread deteriorates into one of those 15-pagers (that I am now going to ignore) whose inevitable conclusion is that the pros can get away with stuff that amateurs can't.

      My opinion? The industry suffers by letting unpaid dough-head interns, some still in high school, serve as its gate-keepers, while at the same time many of the bosses who hire them complain bitterly about "Oh why oh why don't we ever discover a No Country for Old Men; why is it always somebody else? Why oh why oh why..."

      'Cause you don't bother to look past some canned metrics you have in your heads that have crowded out your critical sense, that's why.

      Goldman: "Nobody knows anything."

      Me: "Nobody wants to (truly) read anything."

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      • #4
        Re: Raiders of the None Arc

        You're missing the point, Catcon. I'm simply asking why do the above 'work'. I'm not discounting your argument/bugbear but it's tangential at best. Be it in script or film form, the above hit home despite the lack of any arcing. Why? What can we learn from them about storytelling?
        M.A.G.A.

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        • #5
          Re: Raiders of the None Arc

          Audiences couldn't care less whether or not a movie has characters who arc.

          Now pass the popcorn, Professor Psychopants.
          Know this: I'm a lazy amateur, so trust not a word what I write.
          "The ugly can be beautiful. The pretty, never." ~ Oscar Wilde

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Raiders of the None Arc

            Originally posted by SundownInRetreat View Post
            Hello, hello.

            I thought it apt to revisit that old favourite: films without character arcs - not the central or supporting characters - and toss in some newer titles along the way. This is particularly apt when a major criticism of amateur scripts is the lack of an arc.

            The Princess Bride
            Escape From New York
            Reservoir Dogs
            Taken
            The Wolf of Wall Street
            John Wick


            These films are not like the brilliant Paddington, who doesn't arc yet changes those around him, yet they still work brilliantly and are revered. Why?
            No ARC is code for I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR CHARACTER(s) a lot of the time.A lot of those are ACTION movies -- the character has to struggle a lot to reach their goal -- that's all you need most of the time.

            I find NO STAKES, NO ARC, BAD STRUCTURE -- it's all the same thing. Your script did not make me care enough about if your lead character lived or died. Or accomplished their goal.

            Not every story works the same. They all don't fall into that STAR WARS zero to hero arc -- a lot of life (and comedies I write) are more subtle. Most of my Arcs are like Dodgeball "they saved the gym"

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            • #7
              Re: Raiders of the None Arc

              Originally posted by Bono View Post
              Not every story works the same. They all don't fall into that STAR WARS zero to hero arc -- a lot of life (and comedies I write) are more subtle. Most of my Arcs are like Dodgeball "they saved the gym"
              Saving a gym is a character arc? Huh, who knew.
              Know this: I'm a lazy amateur, so trust not a word what I write.
              "The ugly can be beautiful. The pretty, never." ~ Oscar Wilde

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Raiders of the None Arc

                I'm saying to me "arcs" and "stakes" are sort of the same thing "note wise" and some movies require the hero to learn a lesson and change -- and others just need the hero to save their daughter from the bad guy.

                And some are comedies like Dodgeball and they work together to save the gym -- that's their "arc" and "stakes" but it's not very big at all and not much change.

                Point is -- if you take some of these screenwriting rules too far -- you can work your idea in the wrong way. That's the problem with a lot of these "rules" is that not all stories fit the rules and then you get confused.

                My rule is simple -- do we care at all if the lead accomplishes their goal?

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                • #9
                  Re: Raiders of the None Arc

                  Originally posted by SundownInRetreat View Post
                  You're missing the point, Catcon. I'm simply asking why do the above 'work'. I'm not discounting your argument/bugbear but it's tangential at best. Be it in script or film form, the above hit home despite the lack of any arcing. Why? What can we learn from them about storytelling?
                  Simply put, they work because people want to see what happens. There's usually a goal regardless of an arc, and audiences what to see *how* and *if* it's met. In Nightcrawler, Luis is off his nut and we know it. He ain't changing. We know that, too. But we tune in to watch a train wreck in slow motion. And to see if he completes his goal

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                  • #10
                    Re: Raiders of the None Arc

                    You'd think the mods would realise I'm talking about screenwriting and not 'films' per se. Yeah, my OP mentioned 'films' but..ah, forget it.
                    M.A.G.A.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Raiders of the None Arc

                      To me it's a question of why we're watching the movie in the first place. In Reservoir Dogs, for example, we're watching it to see if any of the robbers are going to make it out of the cluster they've found themselves in.

                      We care if they live or die, not if they've gone through a journey where they've discovered themselves and grown as individuals. If they do that, all the better, but given the stakes, it's not necessary.

                      I think Bono has it right. If there is a clear defined goal for the character, then the change can be more subtle.

                      But if you're writing a movie like Manchester by the Sea where the point of it is the main character confronting his own personal issues, then you might get some irritated audience members if the character remains static.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Raiders of the None Arc

                        So long as Ripley saved Jonesy in Alien [1979], then that was enough.

                        No-one cared if she changed as a person - only if she changed her clothes.
                        Know this: I'm a lazy amateur, so trust not a word what I write.
                        "The ugly can be beautiful. The pretty, never." ~ Oscar Wilde

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Raiders of the None Arc

                          In Alien she "killed" the monster. You left that part out. She went from normal day job to the "final girl" as most horror movies do. High stakes, life or death. So obviously her arc changes as when you're in that situation, you are never the same afterwards.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Raiders of the None Arc

                            Originally posted by Bono View Post
                            Point is -- if you take some of these screenwriting rules too far -- you can work your idea in the wrong way. That's the problem with a lot of these "rules" is that not all stories fit the rules and then you get confused.
                            No one's been talking 'rules'. You're the first.
                            M.A.G.A.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Raiders of the None Arc

                              Originally posted by Bono
                              Let me ask a question. Why are so many posts responses like this? It just kills the conversation -- doesn't add to it. So I'll let Crayon take it from here. He's much more helpful than me with his joke posts.
                              Rather than get defensive and blame others, hold your hands up for getting it wrong (no one was talking 'rules') or own up to your lack of clarity and explain why dived in with 'rules'. For someone who proudly self-styles themselves as 'unPC' you're acting like a snowflake millennial, jeez.
                              M.A.G.A.

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