Which Indie camera?

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  • #16
    Re: Which Indie camera?

    Specman: If you want the best bang for the buck -- by far -- AND the ability to shoot Hollywood/indie qulaity movies (assuming you have the basic skils), get the Blackmagic Cinema Camera and a couple of prime lenses.
    There's test footage out now you can find on Google and the reviews from the pros are in at places like NoFilmSchool.com. The Blackmagic blows everything else away, and is being compared the the Arri Alexa and RED cameras that cost more than 5-10 times more.
    But whatever you do, do not throw your money away on an XL2. That would be qa big step backward, not forward, if you're at all serious about doing this.

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    • #17
      Re: Which Indie camera?

      Thanks for the wisdom Jtwg50 and Kenneth Fisher! I must say The Magic is very interesting to me as well as The Canon t3i. I wanted to try and stick with the larger body camera but it seems now that I'm interested in this side of production the industry standard is changing. Who knew? Guess I should be more concerned with the quality of recording so I must adjust my thinking a bit. Still thanks for your input. I'd be lost without it!

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      • #18
        Re: Which Indie camera?

        Specman, I think what you are referring to as a "larger body camera" like the XL2, is better thought of as a "traditional video camera".

        A traditional video camera will give you a completely different look than a camera like the Black Magic Cinema Camera (BMCC) or the T3i.

        You're better off thinking of the BMCC and the T3i as "Cinema Cameras".

        Let me tell you that as somebody who makes money shooting traditional video, cinema shooting is a totally different animal and in general more difficult. It's actually cinematography. Think of it as serious photography but with moving images.

        ***

        Whichever way you go, you also need to think about more than just the camera. There is audio to consider as well as lighting. And can your computer handle your needs? If not add that to the budget too.

        Both the BMCC and T3i require that you purchase lenses for them. Not just one lens, but lenses for different situations. This adds up quick. And if you start rigging these cameras they become larger immediately.

        There is really a lot more to the topic of shooting digital cinema than I could possibly inform you about here. Before you drop $3000 on the BMCC, or even the under $600 T3i you should do some research so you know what you are getting into.

        And my recommendation is that you wait until the BMCC is released and in the wild with lots of reviews, information and sample footage before you order one. It will be a while before you can get your hands on one anyway.

        ***

        The other way to go if you are more interested in just shooting your content, and not as much interested in making images that "look like a movie" is to buy a traditional video camera that comes with a fixed lens. Your work will look like video but it can still look very good.

        Lots of people have started out with video cameras and then when they got some notice they let the experts handle the cinematography.

        And remember, content is king.
        Last edited by Kenneth Fisher; 08-31-2012, 06:56 PM.

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        • #19
          Re: Which Indie camera?

          Thanx for the input Jtwg50 and Kenneth Fisher!


          Also, I know nothing takes the place of a damn good hd camcorder but in my research I've noticed some good sh!t added and/or created in post production with little more than a small green screen and a desktop. How much more does having a good editing program (Apple Final Cut) help with the quality of your project?

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          • #20
            Re: Which Indie camera?

            Specman, do yourself a big favor before you break open the piggy bank and read up!

            Black Magic Cinema camera Forum: http://bmcuser.com

            Direct link to a forum area dedicated to Canon cameras in the same class as the T3i: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/forumdispl...87-Canon-APS-C (Go up two levels in this forum and prepared to be overwhelmed by all the options available to you)

            DVinfo.net, a forum where I think you will generally find more balanced opinions:
            http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/

            Two blogs that have a lot of information on digital cinematography, but I would read them with a grain of salt:

            http://www.eoshd.com/
            http://nofilmschool.com/

            ***

            And other cameras nobody has mentioned on this thread yet, are the Panasonic GH2 and soon to be released Panasonic GH3.

            Have phun!

            ~ Ken
            Last edited by Kenneth Fisher; 08-31-2012, 06:58 PM.

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            • #21
              Re: Which Indie camera?

              Originally posted by SpecMan13 View Post
              Thanx for the input Jtwg50 and Kenneth Fisher!


              Also, I know nothing takes the place of a damn good hd camcorder but in my research I've noticed some good sh!t added and/or created in post production with little more than a small green screen and a desktop. How much more does having a good editing program (Apple Final Cut) help with the quality of your project?

              Though I learned on Apple computers I am not an apple guy, so I don't work with Final Cut Pro. I like to use Sony Vegas which runs on my custom-built PCs (Or any other PC). Vegas is very powerful, extremely intuitive, has the best audio controls of any of the editing programs you might compare it to, and it has fewer format restrictions than any other editing program you would compare it to either.

              Final Cut Pro, while very good and very popular, restricts you in terms of formats you can edit in it, so that causes you to have to convert lots of files, which in turn eats up time and storage space. The BMCC will create Prores format files that are native to Final Cut Pro, but then you don't get the benefit of raw files. Prores is a great high-quality format and is probably more than what you need anyway.

              Pretty much all editing programs will key out backgrounds for you fairly effectively. ("Keying" is the pro way of saying greenscreen)

              Having said that, if you can edit, you can create good content on virtually any editing program. Editing software is not the barrier or the ladder. Choose the program you like, learn it, and you'll do fine.

              Sony Vegas has a free 30 day trial. Adobe Premiere is gaining popularity faster than any other desktop editing software. Final Cut Pro has taken a hit in popularity recently because professionals don't like the latest version, Final Cut X. Avid is always a solid choice.

              ***

              Shooting greenscreen is an art unto itself, you need space, and you need to light it properly for it to look good. You want to light the subject and the screen separately. Good greenscreen work is accomplished before you ever get to the editing stage.

              If you are thinking about adding 3D objects to your greenscreen work, then be prepared to spend years learning. If you are talking about changing backgrounds, that is not such a big deal.

              If you want to shoot sketches on a greenscreen, it might be that what you are looking for is a video camera as opposed to a cinema-style video camera.

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              • #22
                Re: Which Indie camera?

                One good reason I recommended that you start with the T3i if you want to get into digital cinematography is that it is a cheap way to get started and learning, with the camera body costing under $600.

                If you get the hang of it, and want to graduate to the BMCC, it uses the exact same lenses as the T3i.

                When/if you buy the BMCC, you can sell the T3i for $400 - $500, or keep it as a b-cam, stills cam, or backup cam.

                I think that is the practical way to go.
                Last edited by Kenneth Fisher; 09-01-2012, 08:45 AM.

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                • #23
                  Re: Which Indie camera?

                  Thanxs Kenneth Fisher! You certainly just made a lot of things clearer to me. Seriously, I'm not sure if I should write you a check for the quick film school lesson. As you guessed, when I spoke of greenscreen work I meant just a few simple ideas, nothing too extreme. I will however, copy and paste your words of wisdom into a file as I'm sure they will come in most handy as I start shelling out some cash here shortly.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Which Indie camera?

                    For a clear-cut comparison between the BlackMagic Cinema camera and the slightly more expensive Canon 5DIII, check this out:

                    http://nofilmschool.com/2012/09/blac...o-5d-mark-iii/

                    I've got the 5DII myself, and I like it a lot, but the BMC comes out the clear winner here, regardless of sensor size. That you can get this quality image for $3,000 is truly remarkable.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Which Indie camera?

                      People need to do their research. The Black Magic camera body is cheaper than a 5D MK3, but it is waaaay more expensive to own, operate, store, and process the footage.

                      Not to mention the learning curve. It takes a good bit of learning to use the 5D MK3 and other HDSLR cameras, as well as to shoot raw with the Black Magic camera.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Which Indie camera?

                        SpecMan: Per the other poster, I highly recommend Sony Vegas Pro 11. To give it even more creative firepower buy the plug-in's Magic Bullet Looks II ($400, with a version specific to Sony Vegas Pro) and Plural eyes for easy synching od audio to video for independent recording on a Zoom H4N (or better) and also get good mics and a pro mixer like the Sound Devices MixPre-D ($750), which enhances your audio beyond belief, even if you record directly into your camera and jsut use the Zoom for a backup track.
                        Sony Vegas Pro is what I bought (along with the related toys), after a lot of careful research, and it is incredibly easy to learn and use. Depending on your levels of knowledge and skill as to the editing function, you can make a Sundance-quality movie on it -- as you can with either the Blackmagic Cinema Camera or the Canon 5D or 7D (the new 1D is even more incredible, and allows 20-minute clips to be shot instead of the 5D's 12).
                        The overarching point is that with a total investment of about $20,000 (or even less), you can have everything you need to make Hollywood-quality movies -- and if you know what you're doing, per Robert Rodriguez, you can work virtually alone (I'm making a feature documentary now and I've only been at this for six months).
                        Go for it!

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                        • #27
                          Re: Which Indie camera?

                          Before you buy, see if you can rent the camera you want for a weekend. If you're shooting a short, just rent and don't buy. Things are changing so fast (too fast?) that everything is nearly obsolete in a year. Okay, maybe not obsolete, but you know...

                          Renting will let you know first hand how it will work for you and give you a cheap way to test your workflow. And it's always easier to get your money's worth.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Which Indie camera?

                            Condog is right -- rental experimentation is the way to go.
                            One of the biggest and best rental operators is ATSRentals.com. They ship the camera to you for receipt on Friday, you can shoot three days (Saturday, Sunday and Monday) and return it at the end of the day Monday (via UPS) and only pay for 1 day. The weekend is free and you don't pay for the shipping day.
                            ATS also rents the Blackmagic, as well as Canon 5D's and 7D's and various other pro and prosumer video cameras.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Which Indie camera?

                              Originally posted by jtwg50 View Post
                              Condog is right -- rental experimentation is the way to go.
                              One of the biggest and best rental operators is ATSRentals.com. They ship the camera to you for receipt on Friday, you can shoot three days (Saturday, Sunday and Monday) and return it at the end of the day Monday (via UPS) and only pay for 1 day. The weekend is free and you don't pay for the shipping day.
                              ATS also rents the Blackmagic, as well as Canon 5D's and 7D's and various other pro and prosumer video cameras.
                              I use "borrowlenses.com" ... Mail order rental. Highly recommend.

                              There's a GREAT hands-on review on the BM camera here.
                              Being a screenwriter is not enough for a full creative life. ~ William Goldman

                              homeslice

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                              • #30
                                Re: Which Indie camera?

                                Thanx for the link Concord. Very imformative. Seems like everyone is going buggy over Black Magic. Even I'm liking it more and more.

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