Midpoint

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Re: Midpoint

    Originally posted by Bono View Post
    I'm sure there are things you do, that you learned a long time ago (maybe from books, probably from doing the work), and you may not talk about them out loud any more, but they are there right?

    I'm just talking about this as the forum was dead and it was on my mind, but I'm not talking about it because I want to study up on it. I just wanted to share mostly.

    And when I outline new ideas, I do think of Midpoint for sure.
    Sorry, I was more reacting to where the conversation had gone, rather than your original question.

    Yeah, I might think about at a midpoint when I'm thinking about a movie... I do tend to think of movies in three acts, even though I'm not a slave to any page count or paradigm. That said, I think about midpoints as big reversals or escalations... and I often have more than one.

    I think the more I write, the more basic I get. Do I have a conflict that I believe will carry a movie? What are the great scenes/set pieces that it promises? How does it get complicated? How does it get solved?

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Midpoint

      Originally posted by Bono View Post
      I was saying, I wanted to discuss how we use the Midpoint in our own writing -- that's way different than arguing/discussing one specific's movie midpoint to me.
      Yikes. Sorry I misunderstood you.

      But, you jumped into the debate/convo about Star Wars' midpoint along with everyone else when you commented on what Syd Field said after there were a few comments, so maybe I misunderstood your entire point altogether. I thought you were adding to the conversation that was going back and forth.

      Yes, I think of midpoint turns in stories I write, including an 8 page short.
      "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Midpoint

        Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
        Sorry, I was more reacting to where the conversation had gone, rather than your original question.

        Yeah, I might think about at a midpoint when I'm thinking about a movie... I do tend to think of movies in three acts, even though I'm not a slave to any page count or paradigm. That said, I think about midpoints as big reversals or escalations... and I often have more than one.

        I think the more I write, the more basic I get. Do I have a conflict that I believe will carry a movie? What are the great scenes/set pieces that it promises? How does it get complicated? How does it get solved?

        Thanks for sharing, Jeff and making this clear. Great to know you do use MP too.

        See this is the info I need to seek out. What do pro writers use when writing their stuff -- now that they are in the machine. I have friends that have gone from my side to the making money writing side (some used to ask me for help -- those were the days) and I never really ask them about this formulas and beats. Maybe I should.

        Because most of these discussions are non pro writers talking about ideas put forth by teachers who have never themselves wrote a script that sold. (exception Blake Snyder --I liked Save the Cat for many reasons -- but him having done the job made his POV stronger to me.)

        One of our only outlets is Scriptnotes podcast -- but that's run by 2 A-List writers -- who have only gotten more successful as the show has gone on. So sometimes they are talking about things that are only for working writers not us up and comers -- and I feel like 25% of the time they are only talking to the Top 500 writers in Hollywood not the majority. Sometimes it almost feels they are speaking another language some episodes.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Midpoint

          Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
          Yikes. Sorry I misunderstood you.

          But, you jumped into the debate/convo about Star Wars' midpoint along with everyone else when you commented on what Syd Field said after there were a few comments, so maybe I misunderstood your entire point altogether. I thought you were adding to the conversation that was going back and forth.

          Yes, I think of midpoint turns in stories I write, including an 8 page short.
          No, say whatever you want -- re: the Star Wars thing I thought I found a good summation of the MP -- and honestly I didn't think it would be such a debatable topic -- but that's the DD way! I figured it is what it is -- like Jaws the 3 men go onto the Orca to kill the shark.

          Also -- I was trying to say -- I think we all might be agreeing about the MP -- because to me the Midpoint isn't always just one specific page (like page 60 out of 120) and one scene -- some movies it's more a series of scenes and in an epic movie like Star Wars -- I'd say a 20 min chunk (same one both me and you are talking about) is the Midpoint of that story. It's hard to separate it into ONE beat and I think that's the disagreement when I think we were both basically picking the same section.

          I feel like action adventure movies like that it's going to be more a "section of scenes" vs "one scene" like in most comedies -- when you find out the good guy is actually the bad guy. Boom, done.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Midpoint

            Originally posted by Bono View Post
            No, say whatever you want -- re: the Star Wars thing I thought I found a good summation of the MP -- and honestly I didn't think it would be such a debatable topic -- but that's the DD way! I figured it is what it is -- like Jaws the 3 men go onto the Orca to kill the shark.

            Also -- I was trying to say -- I think we all might be agreeing about the MP -- because to me the Midpoint isn't always just one specific page (like page 60 out of 120) and one scene -- some movies it's more a series of scenes and in an epic movie like Star Wars -- I'd say a 20 min chunk (same one both me and you are talking about) is the Midpoint of that story. It's hard to separate it into ONE beat and I think that's the disagreement when I think we were both basically picking the same section.

            I feel like action adventure movies like that it's going to be more a "section of scenes" vs "one scene" like in most comedies -- when you find out the good guy is actually the bad guy. Boom, done.
            Agreed.
            "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Midpoint

              Originally posted by Bono View Post

              let's name some movies that don't use the MP that you like
              The non-pro peer scripts and the professional scripts/films that I have analyzed over the years all have included a midpoint.

              If I were to look for an example of a film without the structural midpoint element, I would not read/view Major Studios’ scripts/films. I would look at Independent films. Arty films. Foreign films. Even if in the history of cinema, every film produced has a structured midpoint element, my point: it’s not a necessary rule to include a midpoint, a major turning point halfway through your screenplay.

              For anyone to insist to a creative person that a midpoint is required, is giving him a formula (specific point), a set way, for the writer to fit his story in a certain mold.

              The traditional three act structure does not include a midpoint function (Four Acts, yes, a major turning point from [EDITED to make correction] around the halfway mark, which turns us from the end of act two into act three, and then act four).

              It was Syd Fields who made an observation from analyzing screenplays that a major turning point happened halfway through a majority (not all) of films/screenplays.

              Now with that said, I'm not saying including a midpoint is bad for telling an entertaining and compelling story. It's quite the opposite. The midpoint is a valuable tool to craft/build an entertaining story.

              My point was just to say it's not a "rule" where it's required by Screenwriting Law.

              There are a lot of benefits for a writer to structure his story by including a midpoint approximately 50%/halfway (too far in either direction throws the rhythm and balance off) through his story:

              It acts like a lighthouse in the middle of Act 2 to give the writer navigational aid to get through its vast darkness.

              By dividing the second act in half (2A and 2B), it becomes equal sections of duration (shorter) as Acts 1 and 3, therefore more manageable.

              It’s a strong structural element for a writer to hang his story on, allowing for more story development in case the story was running out of steam.

              If the second act is dragging, a midpoint adds a new development, giving the story freshness and energy.

              Midpoint escalates action and raises stakes. (I’ll give examples shortly.)

              A midpoint is not just a plot device. It adds emotion to the story. (I’ll give examples shorty.)

              Midpoint separates the protagonist’s first half of reaction to the second half of action that leads him into the climax. (I’ll give examples shortly.)

              A midpoint is sorta like a “point of no return”: No choice. Must move forward. Must finish, can’t turn back now. (I’ll give examples shortly.)

              Other midpoint functions (one or more): an action or revelation that spins/shifts the story into a different direction, causes protagonist to give a 100% commitment, reversal of fortune, etc.

              The midpoint could be subtle: The protagonist is on a road trip to meet someone. Upon arrival, the person the protagonist was supposed to meet was a no show.

              The midpoint could be big: The shark attack in JAWS where Chief Brody’s (protagonist) son had a near death experience.

              The 1975 film JAWS, 124 minutes:

              The midpoint happens at the 62 minute mark where the monstrous shark enters a pond where Chief Brody’s son, Michael, is sailing. The shark heads for Michael, but a man in a dingy happens to cross its path and gets knocked in the water along with Michael. The shark eats/kills the man in front of a horrified Michael.

              This near death experience of his son, incites the protagonist to shift from reaction, where in the first half he bent over backwards to accommodate Mayor Vaughn’s concerns about the closure of beaches would have on the towns revenue, to action where he forces the mayor to hire Quint so the protagonist can go out and hunt and kill the shark.

              This different direction that the protagonist embarks on escalates the action and the stakes. The protagonist is going out into the shark’s territory. The protagonist can’t swim. With the near death experience on his son, it’s personal now. The near death of his son Michael wasn’t just a plot device, it evoked emotion.

              NORTH BY NORTHWEST:

              The midpoint is the crop-duster scene. This is a reversal of fortune (setback) where instead of believing he had an ally, he was set upped to be killed. This is plot. Emotion: He was set upped by the woman he trusted and had strong feelings for: Eve Kendall.

              THE GODFATHER:

              The midpoint happens when Michael arranges to meet the men responsible for the attempt on his father’s life at a restaurant, where he kills them. Plot: the killing. Emotion: he revenged his father’s assassins. This act is a point of no return: his desire to be not involved in the family business is no longer viable. He’s in -- deep. Reaction in first half: to avoid the family business. Action in second half: to protect the family business.
              Last edited by JoeNYC; 06-07-2020, 12:23 AM.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Midpoint

                Act 1 is about foreshadowing the journey and giving good reason why the hero will embark on it. Act two is the playing out of the journey itself. The problem is the length of Act 2 and how material becomes stale real fast. A lot of stories can be resolved 30 pages after Act 1 and so the writer fill the script with a lot and of bs off tangent scenes to stretch it out. We've all read those scripts that go off on a tangent for like 15 pages then return to the story. To get through Act 2 you need to complicate the story. It can't be the basic journey we were promised in Act 1. It needs to be more complicated than just that and Act 2 is where that happens. Truthfully you can divide Act 2 into as many pieces as you want as long as the number is divisible by 60. You can say you will have 4 sequences of 15 pages in Act 2 each sequence with a climax that complicates the story. You can do 5 sequences of 12 pages. You can even have 1 sequence that is 5 pages and another that is 20. You can design a story that has a dead center midpoint or you can turn a story ten pages before the midpoint and ten pages after. If you keep turning the story then hitting the timing of traditional plot points becomes less important.

                When I read a script and after five pages I'm thrown a turn I didn't see coming, then you have me for five more with me being engaged. The moment you show me scenes where the hero is complaining about their problems or offering their life story and then they come across an obstacle and they handle it in a way I saw coming before it happened then you no longer have me engaged and the skimming starts.

                If you're able to keep turning a story then you'll get the reader for ten more and ten more.

                What's the point to have that great midpoint reversal if you lose the reader before they even get there. You have 30 pages to fill from Act 1 climax and midpoint. The second those pages start going sideways the less of a chance you have for the reader to even get to the midpoint.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Midpoint

                  Originally posted by Cyfress View Post
                  Truthfully you can divide Act 2 into as many pieces as you want as long as the number is divisible by 60. You can say you will have 4 sequences of 15 pages in Act 2 each sequence with a climax that complicates the story. You can do 5 sequences of 12 pages. You can even have 1 sequence that is 5 pages and another that is 20. You can design a story that has a dead center midpoint or you can turn a story ten pages before the midpoint and ten pages after. If you keep turning the story then hitting the timing of traditional plot points becomes less important.
                  This is just designed to get me to read another spec script, right?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Midpoint

                    I'm saying that regardless of the person reading your script, which probably is a spec cause I don't think many of us on here are getting assignments( but I know there are writers here who have and are working writers), if you want to keep the reader engaged you'll need to have ups and downs and more ups and downs than just an inciting incident, act 1 climax, midpoint, act2 climax, and resolution. There's lots of pages between those events where you'll need to have cool and unique things that the hero gets into along the journey that makes sense to the overall story and to your particular hero.

                    I think the better mindset for an aspiring writer is not to hit the standard beats but try to figure out what's special about every scene, what role it plays in the story, and what the substance of the scene is and try to make it its own special beat. You can't have a flat story and only have the graph of the story go up or down at those standard moments. If you're a flat line between those structural events then it's possible the reader starts skimming.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Midpoint

                      I can only imagine how terrible my comedy specs would be if I took the above advice. I mean, they are already terrible. But I mean worse.

                      There is making sure every scene needs to be there and not just filler scenes vs making every scene be so dramatic that you feel like you're having a seizure.

                      Also this is the MD thread! Not also make sure the rest of it good thread! I only care about my beloved midpoint and her mistress, the dark night of the soul.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Midpoint

                        From everything I read on screenwriting that's written and said by actual screenwriters, and not just someone who teaches it, is that they toil over every word and lots of times stories feel imperfect when it's time to let it go.

                        Lots of them use the word "discovering" when talking about how the story comes to them. I think that's telling as you need to be searching for something in order to discover it and discovering something doesn't lend itself to plotting events prior to starting. Specifically Stephen King talks about "discovering" in his book On Writing and compares writing a story to an archeologist finding a fossil in the dirt. It comes to light slowly with a brush here and a brush there until you can see the big picture of what it is.

                        A lot of them talk about how when writing that first draft, turn your inner critic off and do not judge what you are writing, just write. George Lucas talked about this in an interview when talking about Star Wars. What's important in that first draft is making it through - it by no means is your baby though.

                        Michael Blake who won the Oscar for the adaptation of his book Dances With Wolves loves to smoke a little weed before he starts writing and then just likes to disappear into the story for a while.

                        The one thing most of them talked about was being brutal during the rewriting process. There was a writer who used to post here, I forget his name, I think he wrote that movie Slackers, his name escapes me. He was on a thread one time talking about how all the real work happens after that first draft. The story comes together when you get in there and get your hands dirty.

                        I never said to write an overly dramatic scene. Wins and losses in story do not have to be life and death, when the win or loss doesn't hold the elevated stakes maybe the pay-off is the reaction of the hero to the win or loss.

                        I'll leave you with something about a midpoint as you said that is the topic. The midpoint is the giant wave that gives momentum to the journey so it can move toward the end.

                        Popular Midpoint Techniques:

                        Add A New Character
                        Flip an existing character from friend to foe
                        Add a ticking clock to the journey
                        Reveal a secret that the hero knew but the reader did not
                        Have the villain make it personal - affects what's important to the hero: family, wealth, health, etc.
                        Strip the gains that the hero has made thus far - i.e. "pull the rug out"

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Midpoint

                          Better! But seriously, I'm just not the flowery writing language type of advice guy. I find it more "let's dream about writing and how magical it is" vs the "real world" work of writing a script.

                          The note I got most on my comedy specs -- that were well received -- would be UP the comedy. Add a more killer opening scene - like a TV teaser -- to make the reader laugh their ass off right away. So literally -- it's super funny make it funnier. So I don't find what I do applying much to your POV or stories you're talking about. Another reason screenwriting books are good resource, but not a one way fits all. Because often they are talking about godfather movies vs happy gilmore movies.

                          So I'm saying -- a lot of this type of advice for me -- rings hollow. Maybe it rings true for others.

                          When I hear some of our greatest artists talk -- some talk like this -- but I feel most of the great screenwriters/writers give advice like "have a good pen." "write it long hand so it's not so easy to change you mind on a computer screen." "Or no one knows anything." So I guess we are listening to different screenwriters then. Maybe it's just confirmation bias.

                          So I listen to them more than stuff that sounds good in a screenwriting class to say to the students.

                          I'm not trying to be against you or anyone for their view -- I'm trying to say I find that magic in writing comes from passion and ability -- not from over thinking it so much. Yet still having the right road map (stuff like midpoint) to guide your passion so at the end you have a screenplay and not another piece of art.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Midpoint

                            Art is definitely personal. There's no doubt about that.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Midpoint

                              Alright, Bono, you want a controversial opinion on midpoints? I've been thinking about them, and I think they're bullshit.

                              When I look at the examples given here or in books like Save the Cat, the midpoint is just the plot twist that happens in the middle of the movie. I can pick five or six moments out of most movies that you'd call the midpoint if they happened on page 60.

                              So people who deconstruct movies check the running length, divide it by two, find the plot twist that occurs there, and say "See! You can't make a movie without constructing a midpoint!"

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Midpoint

                                This is why Jeff is the best. You're right. And yes I want all your points that could save us a lot of time because you can back it up.

                                Mostly my point was not that it happens exactly in the middle -- but that Act 2 gets boring quick if you're doing the same thing for 60 pages. And these days -- my god -- you're all right in that we want turns every 10 pages... and make sure in a comedy you're not doing the same joke for the whole movie.

                                And I feel like sure movies had conflict and obstacles forever -- but it seems like it's even more needed in spec land these days as people get bored quickly.
                                Last edited by Bono; 06-04-2020, 12:19 PM.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X