Log The Line... LOGLINES

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  • #61
    Re: Log The Line... LOGLINES

    You are going out of your way I think to avoid any points I'm making, but that's okay. Maybe someone else will read this one day...

    You're telling me Skunkman and Mafia bad guy were the same script? Did not get that. I thought these were 2 separate ideas. Now i'm even more confused and sad.

    I wish Christopher would have taught you how to listen to anyone but CL, that would have been really sweet.
    Last edited by Bono; 05-12-2019, 01:31 PM.

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    • #62
      Re: Log The Line... LOGLINES

      Originally posted by JoeNYC View Post
      "I'm confused"

      I posted in the STORY DEVELOPMENT forum to get you unconfused.

      "I bet 100 bucks"

      Don't bet. You would lose. I was a newbie, but Christopher Lockhart trained me on how to write effective loglines. My SKUNKMAN logline was sweet.
      It's not a real bet, but trust me, I would win. It's a very good logline if you were a "newbie" but it's far from perfect.

      And I would be even more honest in that thread, but it doesn't seem like you want me to go there, so I won't.

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      • #63
        Re: Log The Line... LOGLINES

        I thought I had copied and posted this here, but I guess I didn't. This is from the old misc.writing.screenplays newsgroup FAQ and this part was written by Neal Stevens. It's the simplest explanation of logline writing that I've ever seen.

        A logline is "what your movie is about" expressed in a sentence or two. It took me a long time to figure out the formula for a good log line. Here it is: A good line states the problem of the movie. That's what the movie's about.

        A New England Resort Community is menaced by a great white shark.

        A village of poor farmers in Medieval Japan hire seven out of work Samurai to protect them from a band of brigands.

        An office building is taken over by a band of thieves posing as terrorists and a group of executives taken hostage. It falls to a lone New York Cop to find a way to defeat them... and save his wife, who's one of the hostages.

        Last one's a bit clunky. If I thought about it I could probably get it shorter. But you get the idea. Notice that the log line for JAWS didn't even refer to any of the protagonists. Nothing about Chief Brody and his fear of water. Logline = Central Problem. That's the shark. Keep it simple.
        STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I'm a wannabe, take whatever I write with a huge grain of salt.

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        • #64
          Re: Log The Line... LOGLINES

          Yes that's good, Centos.

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          • #65
            Re: Log The Line... LOGLINES

            Originally posted by Bono View Post
            Yes that's good, Centos.
            The longer version (found by searching Google Groups)...

            A logline is a statement of the premise. The premise is the central problem of the story.

            In 16th Century Japan a poor village hires seven out-of-work Samurai to defend them against a band of brigands.

            That's a statement of the problem of the story. That's what all of the various characters, in one way or another, are going to be trying to solve, or are going to be changed by.

            A New England Resort Community is menaced by a great white shark.

            That's the problem. That's what the Chief, and Hooper, and Quint, and everybody else in the story, has to deal with.

            The logline doesn't have to tell us about the Chief being afraid of water, or his failing to stick to his guns and feeling guilty when the
            little kid got eaten, or about Quint wanting vengeance because of the Indianapolis. All that falls under into the category of how the
            various characters react to the problem.

            The logline can't tell you the whole story. It's not supposed to. It's supposed to tell you what the "idea" of the story is -- and the "idea" of the story is it's central problem.

            NMS
            Or an even longer version...

            Q. What is (a logline)?

            A. One or two sentences that tell you what a movie is about.

            "A New England Resort Community is menaced by a great white shark."

            "In medieval Japan, a poor farming community hires seven out-of-work Samurai to protect them from a band of brigands."

            "A lawyer discovers that he's actually working for Satan."

            People sometimes refer to loglines as "TV Guide" descriptions, but that's not exactly true. A logline, properly written, should embody both the central problem of the story -- the premise -- and also make clear what is unique about the script that it's describing.

            "A poor girl tries to win the love of a rich man" may accurately describe the premise of a script, but it's so generic that it doesn't particularly make you want to read it, because it doesn't tell you what's special about it. It could be a comedy. It could be a tragedy. We don't know enough.

            "A poor girl tries to win the love of a famous doctor by feigning a series of progressively more serious -- and more interesting -- diseases." -- okay, it may not be great, but at least you know what the movie is about -- and you have a pretty good idea that it's a comedy.

            Have no doubt. Loglines are a part of our lives. Whenever a script is covered, a "logline" goes on the first page, and very often that logline -- that one line description, determines whether or not the coverage is even read. And if the coverage isn't read, the script isn't going to be bought.

            When you try to tell people what you're movie is about -- that's what you're doing -- coming up with a logline, and it's a skill worth developing. At the very least, it makes you address the question of what your movie is actually about, and what makes it special -- two things that are both worth thinking about.

            NMS
            I wish Neal Stevens would write a book on screenplay writing. I would be in front of the line to buy it.
            Last edited by Centos; 05-15-2019, 03:47 PM.
            STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I'm a wannabe, take whatever I write with a huge grain of salt.

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            • #66
              Re: Log The Line... LOGLINES

              It was better before -- the word premise is a trigger word for a lot of people on this board. Ha.

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              • #67
                Re: Log The Line... LOGLINES

                Originally posted by Bono View Post
                It was better before -- the word premise is a trigger word for a lot of people on this board. Ha.
                Sorry. I guess I took that one post from a thread were they were talking about premises. I don't know for sure.

                But, if I ever need to write a logline, I know what advice I'm going to follow.
                STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I'm a wannabe, take whatever I write with a huge grain of salt.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: Log The Line... LOGLINES

                  I hear you. And others are following other disciples.

                  But in reality, I think we're all doing the same thing basically in the end, so it's not as complex as we like to make it...

                  It's like making a turkey sandwich. You may add mayo. I may add mustard. I like white bread. Someone likes wheat. And somebody doesn't want turkey at all... but if it's still a sandwich at the end, we did it!

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                  • #69
                    Re: Log The Line... LOGLINES

                    Neil M. Stevens:

                    "A New England Resort Community is menaced by a great white shark.-

                    Centos is posting a statement on loglines from nmstevens to prove his point that an industry person says it's effective to send a query with the high concept only, without the need to mention the protagonist, nor his goal.

                    For Centos to dig up a post that nmstevens made 20 years ago, 1997, wasn't fair to him, or to this discussion.

                    Centos choose to ignore nmstevens' most recent opinion on this topic from which I posted in post #35 of this thread where he said: concept is a broader stroke version. He gave an example:

                    "JAWS is a small community menaced by a giant something...-

                    What he means by "a giant something- is that concepts are general, where that "giant something menace- of a story could be anything. Not just a shark.

                    nmstevens continued in post #35 with: The story premise/log line of these movies are more specific.

                    Centos, if post #35 doesn't convince you of nmstevens updated opinion on loglines, let me give you another of his recent opinions from another thread during a logline discussion.

                    nmstevens says:

                    "If I were to offer any advice about log lines, I would ask people to ask a few basic questions about their stories. Who is it about? What is it about? What is it about your script that makes it special and unique? That doesn't add up to any formula, but if you can figure out how to convey those things in around a sentence, you'll be well on the way to crafting a decent log line.-

                    Jeff Lowell's advice on constructing loglines to writers was to provide a link to what he believed was strong advice on how to construct an effective logline.

                    Centos and Bono can you guess the link that Jeff Lowell provided? I'll give you a hint. It rhymes with heart:

                    "I WROTE A 120 PAGE SCRIPT BUT CAN'T WRITE A LOGLINE: THE CONSTRUCTION OF A LOGLINE by Christopher Lockhart.-

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                    • #70
                      Re: Log The Line... LOGLINES

                      Originally posted by Bono View Post
                      I hear you. And others are following other disciples.
                      What the majority of writers follow when constructing their loglines is the Hollywood standard and expectation of getting across the "A" throughline of their story.

                      If writers want to send a logline only with the high concept, the protagonist's inner goal/journey, etc. there's certainly isn't any "rule" saying they can't.

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                      • #71
                        Re: Log The Line... LOGLINES

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N16YkjFVAyE

                        "Turn to the page in the screenwriting book all of Hollywood uses and agrees on where it tells us how to write the perfect logline every single time."

                        "There is no book, sir."

                        "Then how did you write your logline?"

                        "I guess I just did what I saw the other writers do before me, sir."

                        "No more questions."

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: Log The Line... LOGLINES

                          Originally posted by JoeNYC View Post
                          Neil M. Stevens:

                          “A New England Resort Community is menaced by a great white shark.”

                          Centos is posting a statement on loglines from nmstevens to prove his point that an industry person says it’s effective to send a query with the high concept only, without the need to mention the protagonist, nor his goal.

                          For Centos to dig up a post that nmstevens made 20 years ago, 1997, wasn’t fair to him, or to this discussion.
                          I don't know where you got it, but here is your full quote from Neal Stevens...

                          Neal M. Stevens said the following:

                          “’the premise’ of the story is simply what the story is about. That is, what you tell someone in a sentence or two if they asked you what Die Hard was about, or what Inception was about, or what Jaws was about.

                          ‘Concept’ as I perceive it, is a broader stroke version of this. That is, the concept of Inception is People going into other people’s Dreams. There are bunch of movies about this. Dreamscape, The Cell, Paprika. They’re all about people going into other people’s dreams.

                          Jaws is a small community menaced by a giant something...

                          The story premise of these various movies are more specific and, at least from my perspective, I’d consider a log line and a movie’s premise to be just about the same thing. They’re both ideally telling you what the movie’s about.”
                          What, EXACTLY makes this quote any different than the three quotes I posted? He's saying that logline and premise are basically the same thing, that they tell you what the movie is about — and he gives samples (as you've seen in the quotes I posted). It seems like you're straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.

                          Originally posted by JoeNYC View Post
                          Centos choose to ignore nmstevens’ most recent opinion on this topic from which I posted in post #35 of this thread where he said: concept is a broader stroke version. He gave an example:

                          “JAWS is a small community menaced by a giant something...”

                          What he means by “a giant something” is that concepts are general, where that “giant something menace” of a story could be anything. Not just a shark.
                          Talk about clutching at straws. The movie "Jaws" was about a shark menacing a New England resort community. This was not a "general concept." And Neal Stevens already made it clear in that he looks at premise and loglines as both telling you "what the movie about." With Jaws, the movie was about "A New England Resort Community is menaced by a great white shark." Can't get much simpler and clearer than that.

                          Originally posted by JoeNYC View Post
                          nmstevens continued in post #35 with: The story premise/log line of these movies are more specific.
                          Yeah, what made it specific is that the "giant something" in the concept turned out to be "great white shark" in the logline. Whoop-dee-doo. What a difference that makes!

                          Originally posted by JoeNYC View Post
                          Centos, if post #35 doesn’t convince you of nmstevens updated opinion on loglines, let me give you another of his recent opinions from another thread during a logline discussion.

                          nmstevens says:

                          “If I were to offer any advice about log lines, I would ask people to ask a few basic questions about their stories. Who is it about? What is it about? What is it about your script that makes it special and unique? That doesn’t add up to any formula, but if you can figure out how to convey those things in around a sentence, you’ll be well on the way to crafting a decent log line.”
                          Yep, he said that in one of the quotes I posted — or words very nearly the same. In other words he still says the same about loglines that he's always said. A logline is what the movie is about, the problem that needs to be solved.

                          I.e., "A New England Resort Community is menaced by a great white shark."

                          Again his comments on this...

                          A logline is a statement of the premise. The premise is the central problem of the story. ...

                          A New England Resort Community is menaced by a great white shark.

                          That's the problem. That's what the Chief, and Hooper, and Quint, and everybody else in the story, has to deal with.

                          The logline doesn't have to tell us about the Chief being afraid of water, or his failing to stick to his guns and feeling guilty when the
                          little kid got eaten, or about Quint wanting vengeance because of the Indianapolis. All that falls under into the category of how the
                          various characters react to the problem.

                          The logline can't tell you the whole story. It's not supposed to. It's supposed to tell you what the "idea" of the story is -- and the "idea" of the story is it's central problem.
                          I don't even know if you agree with this is disagree with it anymore. Seems pretty simple to me.

                          A logline is "what your movie is about" expressed in a sentence or two. It took me a long time to figure out the formula for a good log line. Here it is: A good line states the problem of the movie. That's what the movie's about. —NMS
                          Originally posted by JoeNYC View Post
                          Jeff Lowell’s advice on constructing loglines to writers was to provide a link to what he believed was strong advice on how to construct an effective logline.

                          Centos and Bono can you guess the link that Jeff Lowell provided? I'll give you a hint. It rhymes with heart:

                          “I WROTE A 120 PAGE SCRIPT BUT CAN’T WRITE A LOGLINE: THE CONSTRUCTION OF A LOGLINE by Christopher Lockhart.”
                          Well, the closest I can find to Jeff Lowell quoting Christopher Lockhart (from your post #35 in the "other" thread is actually Jeff Lowell quoting John August) —

                          In Hollywood, premise commonly means “What the movie is about.” It’s a very short pitch, basically interchangeable with logline. The premise of Die Hard is that a cop has to stop a band of robbers by himself in an office tower. The premise of Armageddon is that an asteroid is headed towards Earth, and a team of misfits has to stop it.
                          So, I'm trying to figure out how this is different than what Neal Stevens wrote about premise and logline both being, essentially, what the movie is about. Are we actually agreeing here, because (honestly) I'm confused as to what the hell we're yammering on about anymore. There was a reason I ignored your #35 post in the "other" thread, it looked kind of crank-ish. If you can write something in one or two paragraphs, telling me where I "missed your point," please do so. Because I'm not seeing it, but you seem really upset about my Neal Steven quotes for some reason.

                          As for Christopher Lockhart... you appear to be a fan. That's nice. I don't know much about him. His IMDB writing credits include one infomercial for his own product and a documentary about the high school version of the Grammy Awards. I'm aware that what appears on IMDB doesn't always tell the whole story but I'm not ready to accept that his word is the "standard" in Hollywood. It looks like he does "toot his own horn" quite a bit though.

                          Oh, and my "old" quotes from Neal Stevens... (which look a lot like the new quotes from John August)...

                          If you're looking for loglines, you can go to "Done Deal" -- it lists log lines (or something close to log lines) for recent script sales -- hundreds of them.

                          A log line is simply the premise of a movie in a sentence or two. The "premise" is the central problem of the story. —2002

                          A logline is a statement of the premise. The premise is the central problem of the story. —2001

                          The log line is a one or two line description of the premise of a film. The premise of a film is its central problem. —2000

                          If you find it hard to do this, just remember one thing. A logline is the statement of the central "problem" of a story. You don't even have to introduce the protagonist in the log line. Just state the problem of the movie. —1999

                          In Hollywood terms there's a thing known as a "logline" -- basically, it's the premise of the movie reduced down to a couple sentences -- preferably one sentence. —2007

                          "Jaws" isn't about Chief Brody being afraid of the water. It isn't even about Chief Brody trying to get redemption after he causes the
                          death of a young boy. It's about a resort town being menaced by a great white shark. That's it. The shark. That's what the movie is
                          about. All that other stuff is incidental. That's not to say that it isn't important. But it's not central.

                          The logline tells us what is central -- the one central problem that drives the whole engine of your story. —2004

                          A logline shouldn't have to give away any significant twist, or mystery, because, as I've said before, loglines simply describe the
                          premise -- that's what we're talking about when we talk about "what the movie is about."

                          "Sixth Sense" is *about* a psychiatrist trying to help a child who can see and communicate with the dead. The fact that he may not realize it until late is beside the point -- that's the "problem" that he is driven to solve throughout the course of the movie -- a problem that the viewer is almost immediately aware of. —2002

                          Look -- a lot of people have taken a lot of time telling this to you. There's nothing to argue about. There's no "difference of opinion"
                          about what a logline is or what it's for. It's a very particular thing. In my time, I've written scores of them, and read thousands of
                          them.

                          Whether you call it the premise, the idea, "what the movie is about," the "central problem" -- it's all the same thing. —2002

                          Etc., etc.
                          I don't think Neal Stevens has changed his opinion about what a logline is. I can't go much further forward in misc.writing.screenplays (and the moderated version) as they pretty much went away about 15 years ago.
                          STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I'm a wannabe, take whatever I write with a huge grain of salt.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: Log The Line... LOGLINES

                            Originally posted by Bono View Post
                            "I guess I just did what I saw the other writers do before me, sir."
                            And what exactly is wrong with this statement. Isn’t it wise for a newbie to listen to experienced pro and non-pro writers to gain knowledge on what works? What is effective? In any aspect in learning the craft of screenwriting?

                            Bono, on two different occasions I gave you two example loglines and asked for your opinion on which one do you believe is the most effective, but you danced around and never gave me a direct answer.

                            I’m gonna try one more time and if you don’t mind, I’d like to ask you to please tell me, in your opinion, which logline, “A” or “B,” would be the most effective in enticing an industry person to request a writer’s screenplay.

                            This is the scenario:

                            A writer hypothetically wrote an original screenplay titled JAWS. He sends off query letters with JAWS in the subject line. The industry person sees this strong title and his interest is aroused, but the title is too general. JAWS could refer to anything, so he goes into the body of the email for the premise/logline.

                            The logline is the King of the query letter. It’s heart. If the query letter’s heart isn’t strong, it’ll die a quick death.

                            Logline “A”:

                            A killer shark terrorizes a small resort town.

                            Logline “B”:

                            When swimmers are gruesomely killed in a resort town, the police chief must hunt and kill a monstrous white shark.

                            In my opinion, logline “A” is an attention grabber, but it only expresses the story’s high concept hook. It’s too general.

                            Is this story told in the POV of the shark, where the shark is a anti-hero of the story? If not, who is the protagonist? A mercenary? A doctor? A mother looking for revenge after the shark killed her daughter? What’s driving this story? The engine (goal)?

                            Too many unanswered questions where it’ll turn off some industry people where they won’t request the script. Why risk this?

                            I would choose logline “B” because it effectively expresses the story that I’ve written, though I would include the fourth element of the chief’s fear of the ocean because it expresses more obstacles/conflict to overcome and gives a hint of his transformation.

                            Bono, I get your beef/point: On what authority, or higher power that it says in order to write an effective logline it must include the protagonist, the protagonist’s goal, and the antagonist force?

                            If you admit that logline example “B” is the most effective logline, then you answered your own question. In the past, using these elements in a logline has proven to be effective in enticing an industry person to request a writer’s screenplay.

                            Does this mean this is the only way to write a logline? Of course not. There are no “rules.”

                            A writer has the free will to write a logline with just the high concept hook, or expressing the protagonist’s internal goal/journey, or write a logline with 60 plus words, or a logline that focuses on the story’s theme, etc., but with the caveat of -- as long as it works.

                            The thing is these type of loglines rarely work, where they are too weak, not clear or confusing, though there are exceptions.

                            When I was active on Zoetrope, a member gave an example logline with his theme of the story front and center which I thought worked quite well.

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                            • #74
                              Re: Log The Line... LOGLINES

                              Originally posted by Centos View Post
                              Talk about clutching at straws.
                              Centos, you're entitled to your opinion.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: Log The Line... LOGLINES

                                Everyone knows every goddamn detail of JAWS. That's the only reason that short logline works. Because we already know about the chief, we know it's a friggin monster, we know people get eaten, we know about the shark hunter.

                                Is it really enough for a spec screenplay logline from an unknown aspiring screenwriter to say, "It's basically about this" with no details? Preposterous.

                                Anyone got anything sensible to say?

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