The Empire Strikes Back made no sense...

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  • #16
    Re: The Empire Strikes Back made no sense...

    Indiana Jones?

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    • #17
      Re: The Empire Strikes Back made no sense...

      Originally posted by Bairn_Writer View Post
      as standalone movies, no beginning middle and end.
      But they aren't standalone movies, so the discussion is irrelevant.

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      • #18
        Re: The Empire Strikes Back made no sense...

        Yet they were released as standalone movies and you had to pay to watch them as standalone movies.

        And if the first one completely bombs you don't see the next 2. So they were standalone movies.

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        • #19
          Re: The Empire Strikes Back made no sense...

          Originally posted by ctp View Post
          Indiana Jones?
          I wouldn't consider that a trilogy. It's three moves (nananananana I can't hear you Kingdom of the Crystal Skull nananananaan) that have the same characters, but I'd call it a series of sequels and not a trilogy.

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          • #20
            Re: The Empire Strikes Back made no sense...

            Originally posted by Bairn_Writer View Post
            Yet they were released as standalone movies and you had to pay to watch them as standalone movies.

            And if the first one completely bombs you don't see the next 2. So they were standalone movies.
            Yes, they are stand alone movies in the sense that they all came out separately in the theater, but unlike the Indiana Jones movies which were mentioned, you can't really watch Empire or Jedi without knowing what happened before.

            Though that makes me think, I would also put Star Trek 2, 3, & 4 up as a trilogy.

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            • #21
              Re: The Empire Strikes Back made no sense...

              Originally posted by Bairn_Writer View Post
              Yet they were released as standalone movies and you had to pay to watch them as standalone movies.

              And if the first one completely bombs you don't see the next 2. So they were standalone movies.
              But the first one didn't completely bomb - these are hypotheticals that don't mean anything. They were meant to be viewed as episodes within a series, and that's how they are viewed.

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              • #22
                Re: The Empire Strikes Back made no sense...

                Did they market the first one as an incomplete story with no ending so that people paying 10 bucks to watch it knew they were only getting an episode within a series that didn't tell a story? To me it's just bad film-making.

                Star Wars and Return of the Jedi both managed to be proper movies as part of a longer story.

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                • #23
                  Re: The Empire Strikes Back made no sense...

                  Originally posted by Bairn_Writer View Post
                  Did they market the first one as an incomplete story with no ending so that people paying 10 bucks to watch it knew they were only getting an episode within a series that didn't tell a story? To me it's just bad film-making.

                  Star Wars and Return of the Jedi both managed to be proper movies as part of a longer story.
                  Though that's generally how you build a trilogy. The first film is stand alone and the next to are more conditional.

                  I'd disagree that Jedi is a proper movie not part of a longer story. Look at the opening. You're telling me that someone who has seen no other Star Wars movies wouldn't watch the rescue of Han from Jabba the Hutt and think "Who the hell are any of these characters?"

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                  • #24
                    Re: The Empire Strikes Back made no sense...

                    Originally posted by Bairn_Writer View Post
                    Did they market the first one as an incomplete story with no ending so that people paying 10 bucks to watch it knew they were only getting an episode within a series that didn't tell a story? To me it's just bad film-making.

                    Star Wars and Return of the Jedi both managed to be proper movies as part of a longer story.
                    You are worrying about qualifications which have no meaning, IMO.

                    People paid ten bucks (more like 2 bucks at the time) to be entertained, and they were. It's widely considered one of the best sci-fi films of all-time and was one of the most well-received movies of all-time. Adjusted for inflation, it is the 12th highest grossing film of all-time, and the highest grossing inflation-adjusted sequel ever made.

                    So I'd say the criteria you have for good film-making does not hold weight with the viewing public (whose satisfaction you have considered in coming up with your criteria).
                    Last edited by thirdman23; 03-27-2015, 10:27 AM.

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                    • #25
                      Re: The Empire Strikes Back made no sense...

                      Originally posted by thirdman23 View Post
                      So I'd say the criteria you have for good film-making does not hold weight with the viewing public (whose satisfaction you have considered in coming up with your criteria).
                      Agreed. Moviefan/Bairn's opinion is just that. An (unpopular) opinion. As for the "truth," the market has spoken. For THIS PARTICULAR franchise, for whatever reason, a sequel worked with an open, incomplete ending.

                      However, generally speaking, an incomplete middle film is usually crummy, like the last Hunger games filler.
                      I'm never wrong. Reality is just stubborn.

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                      • #26
                        Re: The Empire Strikes Back made no sense...

                        Originally posted by FoxHound View Post
                        However, generally speaking, an incomplete middle film is usually crummy, like the last Hunger games filler.
                        TESB has one of the best cliffhangers of all-time, which helps the cause. No one is walking out of that theatre unsatisfied and asking for their money back complaining that the saga wasn't completed - they are all excited to see episode 6.

                        I'm not sure how incomplete I'd agree it is anyway. I think that's been overstated. It has several plots & character arcs that converge at the end, it just happens to be a depressing ending, and sets up for the next film.

                        But you get resolution on Han vs. bounty hunters; Han & Leia's love story; Luke gunning for Vader, etc. It's just the main characters get their asses handed to them.

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                        • #27
                          Re: The Empire Strikes Back made no sense...

                          The ending of Star Wars: A New Hope (ANH) was such that the rebels have struck a major psychological blow to the empire, seen as invincible as now, and destroying the Death Star, which would have been able to single-handedly put fear in the whole galaxy, and had been seen as indestructible.

                          It's similar to how the Japanese and Germans were seen as invincible in the early stages of the war, which was a big blow to the allies' morale. But when they finally won one battle, it made them realize they were not as weak as they thought and conversely, the Japanese and Germans' own aura of invincibility was shattered.

                          Lucas' Star Wars films drew a lot of references to WWII, besides the obvious stuff like stormtroopers, there are many other small things like Hoth being the name of a German general, etc.

                          In the expanded universe books, it stated how the destruction of the death star also caused more races around the galaxy to rise up against the empire as they realized the empire was not as invincible as previously thought. IIRC That is the reason the Mon Calamari, a shipbuilder species (seen in ROTJ with their big star cruisers) joined the rebels and provided the star cruisers which could go toe to toe with the Imperial star destroyers.

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                          • #28
                            Re: The Empire Strikes Back made no sense...

                            Lord of the Rings is one of the greatest trilogies.

                            All 3 movies were incredible. I was dying to to watch the TWO TOWERS after the Fellowship. If you do individual movies right, no one will feel short changed if one movie leads into another and it's not complete.

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                            • #29
                              Re: The Empire Strikes Back made no sense...

                              I would argue that LOTR are largely stand-alone movies that were part of a larger narrative. Each movie has its own beginning, middle, and end.

                              Each movie tracks a characters' arc and builds to a climactic moment:

                              - Fellowship is Frodo's movie. It builds to the moment where he realizes that he has to go it alone.

                              - Towers is Aragon's movie, as we watch him grow from Ranger to Leader of Men.

                              - Return of the King used Sam as the emotional core, watching him grow from tagger-on to hero.

                              Each movie is its own, contained story. They all end at a satisfying place, but then add a little moment that reminds us that the larger story will continue.

                              However, I don't know if the same can be said for Empire Strikes Back. It's a movie that ends at the low point. It feels like one long Act II, and maybe half of Act III while the rest of Act III is at the beginning of Jedi. The only real completed arc that occurs is "I love you" "I know."

                              In essence, if Two Towers were Empire Strikes Back, it would be structured with Aragon having been beaten back into The Keep at Helms Deep. There's no true "end" to any of the stories in Empire.

                              With that said, I LOVE Empire Strikes Back. I don't have a problem with it.

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                              • #30
                                Re: The Empire Strikes Back made no sense...

                                Originally posted by Bunker View Post
                                In essence, if Two Towers were Empire Strikes Back, it would be structured with Aragon having been beaten back into The Keep at Helms Deep. There's no true "end" to any of the stories in Empire.
                                But is the good guys winning a pre-requisite for an ending? Luke fought Vader, and lost. Han went up against the bounty hunters, and lost.

                                I'm not sure Aragon being beaten back at the Helms Deep is a perfect analogy here - that would've been ending the film mid-battle. The battle between the principle characters at Cloud City was resolved, it's just the good guys had a bad day.

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