Mad Men: Season 5 Premier

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  • #31
    Re: Mad Men: Season 5 Premier

    I didn't think the intercutting was heavy-handed. I think it was done pretty elegantly. You could say that the scene in the GODFATHER with the intercutting between the Christening and the killings could be heavy-handed - and maybe it would be if it wasn't so thematically powerful. The same with this episode IMO.

    It may not be completely believable that Joan would get 5% of the company, but I'll take great drama over believability any day. Beyond that though, Mad Men has trafficked in that space between melodrama and history, so it's not such a stretch that they would offer her partnership. And I think they wanted to make the payoff to be in equal proportion to the moral sacrifice Joan would have to make.

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    • #32
      Re: Mad Men: Season 5 Premier

      Omovie --

      You make great points, especially re melodrama, and in that context I agree.

      If they were brutally honest about the era and mindset, with our 21st century POV and sensitivities we'd end up hating all the agency characters. Except Peggy, maybe.

      But - didn't you groan just a little when Joan says, "You're talking about prostitution ..." then a minute later, "You can't afford me." That's the old - we've established you're a hooker now we're just haggling over price - joke. I groaned.

      Anway - cool discussion.
      Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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      • #33
        Re: Mad Men: Season 5 Premier

        Originally posted by sc111 View Post
        But - didn't you groan just a little when Joan says, "You're talking about prostitution ..." then a minute later, "You can't afford me." That's the old - we've established you're a hooker now we're just haggling over price - joke. I groaned.
        It's interesting, I think Joan - really from the onset - has always believed that her identity in the workplace has been defined by how the men view her. She never had any illusions and she has never played her sexuality down. She seems to have always accepted that, with being a woman, you will have to do things in order to make yourself accepted. On the one hand, Joan has this fierce, non-nonsense dignity about her and on the other hand, there is this pragmatism. Peggy seemed to have avoided all that through her great talent.

        I wasn't groaning when she said "you can't afford me" - but maybe it's because I'm a guy? I don't know. It seems like women viewers had a much stronger reaction to Joan's actions than the male viewers. To me, she did what she had to do. It doesn't lessen her stature in my eyes, even though it may in Don's.

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        • #34
          Re: Mad Men: Season 5 Premier

          after watching The Killing i just caught this show for the first time last night. ha! not too shabby.


          Give Joan 5% and partner voting rights for a one-night stand with a client?

          In the 60s? In the ad industry? Ummm. No. Not believable. They'd pprobably just tell her she'd lose her job if she refused exploiting the fact she has a kid to feed.
          this was done to appease us b/c the oppression/discrimination women faced is still tough to watch.
          and also b/c it was a group decision that they weren't all comfortable with so it makes sense that at least one guy told her how to "play" it. that was nice.

          and i don't know the characters' backgrounds, but Peggy -- is that actress leaving the show? i was waiting for her to engage in bidding war for her salary... like say she needed $24K to stay making DD drop his jaw.

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          • #35
            Re: Mad Men: Season 5 Premier

            Originally posted by omovie View Post
            It's interesting, I think Joan - really from the onset - has always believed that her identity in the workplace has been defined by how the men view her. She never had any illusions and she has never played her sexuality down. She seems to have always accepted that, with being a woman, you will have to do things in order to make yourself accepted. On the one hand, Joan has this fierce, non-nonsense dignity about her and on the other hand, there is this pragmatism. Peggy seemed to have avoided all that through her great talent.

            I wasn't groaning when she said "you can't afford me" - but maybe it's because I'm a guy? I don't know. It seems like women viewers had a much stronger reaction to Joan's actions than the male viewers. To me, she did what she had to do. It doesn't lessen her stature in my eyes, even though it may in Don's.
            I think you're right about women viewers having a stronger reaction. As a writer, though, I think Joan's lines in the scene with Campbell, when he asked her to do it for the team, didn't do her character, as established so far, justice.

            Peggy was done very well and true to the ad industry -- she realized that no matter how great a writer she was, she'd always be Don's protege. To move up she had to leave.

            I would've written it differently, I guess. Because these are two different women taking two different routes to the top.

            At the very least, I'd have the idea for the 5% be Joan's idea. That would have nicely contrasted Peggy's decision to not allow Don to best her other offer.

            And another choice I'd make -- when Peggy, after Don threw money at her, said, "I'm not crying" -- I would have contrasted that with having Joan cry, not boo-hoo-hoo crying, maybe tears welling in her eyes, alone, after Campbell left her office.

            Because Joan, no matter how hard she works, is trapped in that body and she knows it. Even if she wore a flour sack to work, it wouldn't make a difference. Even the status of wife and mother didn't make a difference. She sees this clearly when Campbell asks her, and that's why I'd have her tear up when he left. Then I'd have her pull herself together and come back with the 5% counter offer.

            But that's just me.
            Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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            • #36
              Re: Mad Men: Season 5 Premier

              i don't think she feels "trapped" inside that body. it's an asset. she knows it. and when she realized she could take advantage of the situation and use it (her body) on her terms... by all means.

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              • #37
                Re: Mad Men: Season 5 Premier

                Originally posted by NikeeGoddess View Post
                i don't think she feels "trapped" inside that body. it's an asset. she knows it. and when she realized she could take advantage of the situation and use it (her body) on her terms... by all means.
                For someone who admits she's only seen this one show after 5 seasons, you're jumping to a conclsuion about a character you don't know.
                Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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                • #38
                  Re: Mad Men: Season 5 Premier

                  Amazing Nikee, that you can only catch one episode and miss 5 season worth of material and yet have a comprehensive understanding of the sexual identity of a significant character who is grappling with a complexities of gender politics in the workplace on the 1960's. Truly insightful.

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                  • #39
                    Re: Mad Men: Season 5 Premier

                    To me, this was a fantastic episode, and the intercutting was VERY effective.

                    While sc111 may be right and the 5% and voting partner offer for Joan wasn't realistic, it made for great TV!

                    Pete Campbell is SUCH a snake!!!!
                    HL

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                    • #40
                      Re: Mad Men: Season 5 Premier

                      this show has been on for 5 seasons?!!! i thought it was only 2. damn, i missed a lot. and maybe i did jump to conclusions but i still think i'm right about her and so many women like her from that era. i've watched a lot of movies from the 50s and 60s <<hee, hee!!>> so tell me, you think she's more Jane Russell or Rosalind Russell?

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                      • #41
                        Re: Mad Men: Season 5 Premier

                        Originally posted by NikeeGoddess View Post
                        this show has been on for 5 seasons?!!! i thought it was only 2. damn, i missed a lot.
                        Yeah, it's 5 seasons. In fact, the name of this thread is "Mad Men: Season 5 Premier". That's wasn't an arbitrary number I put in the title.

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                        • #42
                          Re: Mad Men: Season 5 Premier

                          ha! i didn't even pay attention to that... b/c i just watched the show for the first time, i just posted.

                          so -- what's the deal with that woman who was crawling across the boardroom table like a cat? that was more freaky than anything else i saw on this ep.

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                          • #43
                            Re: Mad Men: Season 5 Premier

                            Wow. Tonight was incredible. This has to be some of the best writing on television.

                            Definitely see tonight + last week for Emmy noms. Christina Hendricks has been pitch perfect, I hope she wins Best Actress.
                            "Write every day. Don't quit. The rest is all bullshit." - Brian Koppelman

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                            • #44
                              Re: Mad Men: Season 5 Premier

                              Do you guys think Don was right in firing Lane?

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                              • #45
                                Re: Mad Men: Season 5 Premier

                                Originally posted by omovie View Post
                                Do you guys think Don was right in firing Lane?
                                For me, watching the scene of Don firing Lane, I couldn't help but think of few seasons when he did the same to Sal Romano -- albeit under different circumstances. This is a tough one for me, because in this arena, Don consistently acts in a manner that he believes is best; even if it isn't always with the most compassion, but his motivations are usually pure. And that right there is the rub and the brilliance of the writing, because I completely understood Don's motivations.

                                Embezzlement isn't something to play with. The entire company was put at risk, and allowing Lane to walk away quietly -- in Don's mind at least -- was the most compassionate thing to do, but Lane is the man that made the creation of Sterling/Cooper/Draper/Price possible when he fired all of them before the big merger a few seasons ago. Lane really put himself out there on the line, sank his own money into the company, and only took the money as a loan. I don't think there's any doubt that he was going to replace the funds as soon as the Christmas bonuses were handed out.

                                If I were Don's shoes I'm not sure I would have been able to do it especially considering how indebted everyone should have been to Lane, but forgery, no matter what the motivation, is a serious fracture of trust in business as you can get. So I can't exactly say that Don was wrong in acting to protect the business.

                                There is that inescapable big of irony though, that Don is firing a man for forging a name that Don's been forging for years. Lane really caught the short end all around.
                                "No man gives me a crown. I pay the iron price... I will take my crown." -- Balon Greyjoy

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