Disagreement with reps on a note -- need your opinions

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  • #31
    Re: Disagreement with reps on a note -- need your opinions

    Originally posted by Ire View Post
    If it was a screenplay, I'd be more inclined to support everyone that said stick up for your creative instincts. But since this is a matter of an intro for an existing series with an existing format, I can't fully agree with that reasoning. F-ck it if it means a sale. To my knowledge, spec writers for TV series are not the source for re-vamping the format of a series.

    If it is a matter of a sale and it's hinging on the opening, f-ck it, you're not the showrunner, you're not the exec producer. You're a writer with a story, not just an opening. Your opening is only part of your story which if it's produced, might set you apart in a collaborative medium. If you want to be incorrigible regarding a spec episode for a established TV show, go ahead. Good luck.
    Ire, I think you're misunderstanding. This is Ele's original one-hour pilot spec. His reps are merely stating that nearly all television shows begin with the main character (which they don't - as evidenced in this thread) and so his shouldn't break form.

    On a somewhat related note - as far as I know, existing shows don't even buy spec episodes from outside writers. Matter of fact, if you want a staff writing position on a show, you don't even write a spec for that show, you impress them with specs of other similar shows.

    Cheers,

    AC
    "I've got vision up the butt, so just go with it!" - Dewey Finn, School of Rock

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Disagreement with reps on a note -- need your opinions

      Originally posted by elephant1978 View Post
      It won't work as a simple swap, as they've suggested. If I were to do this it would require some new transitions. The east coast scene would then have to essentially be a flashback, which I think feels weird and forced. I'll basically have to rewrite other material that they already like.

      The thing is, they love the first ten pages. However, they also had me trim them down. So if they ask me to swap this thing and I have to write new material to fit it in, I'll have to lengthen these ten pages. It's difficult because it's all setup info that has to happen there. And I've cut it down to the bare essentials.

      I almost feel like they need to look at this situation and realize that they can't have it all. The math just doesn't work out. And that's what's bothering me about this whole thing. They don't seem to understand that moving this one scene will require the other things they liked to change. There's a bit of limited thinking, IMO. And that's what is making this so hard.

      Ele...
      I'm sure they haven't even considered the math.

      As usual they're looking to psychically discern possible concerns buyers may have about the script. They want to sell the pilot first.

      And they may be thinking you're just a writer too in love with your darlings.
      Disavow them of this idea.

      Write a memo with bullet points explaining the math and the logic as to why their suggested change would negatively impact later episodes and everything else they like about the pilot.

      Overwhelm them with pure unemotional logic, see what happens.


      Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Disagreement with reps on a note -- need your opinions

        I'd like to add this:

        Make the change and try to make it work.

        There will be three possible outcomes:

        1- It will not work.
        In that case let them read it and they will come to their sense. And you have shown them you are a writer that can take notes.

        2- It will work.
        And you may like it. And you have shown them you are a writer that can take notes.

        3- You honestly can't decide which one is better.
        In this case, do not show them the new draft, keep the one you want. But tell them that you tried and you were not happy with the results. And you have shown them you are a writer that can take notes.

        In any case, you would have grown as a writer.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Disagreement with reps on a note -- need your opinions

          ele, is this supporting character going to be a major part of the series, or is he/she a one-off? I only ask because because I've recently dealt with this same issue, not as the writer, but as the critic. The original pilot started out with a certain character, and it was a pretty big scene. Then the next scene introduced the supposed main character, but it wasn't nearly as big or interesting as the opening scene. My first instinct (one that was hard to shake for the rest of the teleplay) was that this supporting character was actually the main character. It didn't help that the supporting character had some of the best lines and competed for air time throughout.

          I'd never suggest that you must always start with your main character. In fact, many shows have cold opening that never show or mention the main character(s). I would, however, suggest that you might be in love with your little darlings. I see nothing wrong with experimenting with a different opening or two. Why does it start in the East Coast? 'Cause it's necessary, or 'cause that's the way it is and you don't wanna change it? Your manager may be completely wrong, but you won't be sure unless you've explored all the options. You might just find a new little darling to fall in love with.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Disagreement with reps on a note -- need your opinions

            This supporting character is one of the 5 regulars on the show. It's a scene just short of 2 pages and then we move on to the main character, who is clearly the center of attention. He's in 75% of the script. Maybe more. I would be pretty surprised if anybody would mistake the supporting character for the lead just because I showed him first.

            I'm not going to lie. I do love the opening. I'm very proud of what I did with it. But the reason I wrote it in the first place is because of the logistics involved. You have a character on one side of the country who has to go west and get involved with the main character. There was a reason for it. The fact that I wrote it in a way that I love came second.

            Ele...

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            • #36
              Re: Disagreement with reps on a note -- need your opinions

              This doesn't sound like an opening that sets up a problem for main character to solve -- like most detective stories or even House. And I wonder about putting too much emphasis on your supporting character.

              Obviously though, none of us can offer an informed opinion. Without reading it's all pretty worthless.

              My best advice would be to get a read from a writer, or two, that you trust. They'll be able to give you an informed opinion without the attachment. Your agent and manager may be right on about the note, but not be expressing the real problem with the scene.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Disagreement with reps on a note -- need your opinions

                Ele...

                It sounds like you already have your mind made up.

                If it were me, I'd do as someone said and first try to make the note work in my own way before I went to war over it.

                You may also consider that your manager could be thinking about attachments. Stars love to be the focus and all want a killer intro, right?

                Maybe your manager thinks it will make a more attractive read for actors if they can see that they are the "star" from page one.

                I'm sure you can find an example of a pilot episode that didn't open on the main character, but that doesn't make this battle right in my mind.

                If you really truly respect this manager and are happy to be working with him/her...then I think you should at least TRY to make the note work.

                My 2 cents, either way good luck.

                s

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Disagreement with reps on a note -- need your opinions

                  Cutterug,

                  Thank you. Yep, my bad. Posting under the influence of Ambien.

                  And yes, the most typical scenario is the spec is not for that series. My misunderstanding/misinterpreting/misconstruing went a long ways toward my mis-reply. I thought there possibly was a loophole through which Ele had gotten his script submitted to the showrunner/producer and there was the issue of the opening. It made less sense to me that Ele was resistant as far as the opening scene.


                  Redacted.

                  Time to take another pill before I reply.
                  #writinginaStarbucks #re-thinkingmyexistence #notanotherweaklogline #thinkingwhatwouldWilldo

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Disagreement with reps on a note -- need your opinions

                    Just for the record. I have given this note serious thought and tried to see how I could implement it. I didn't physically change the words on the page, but from what I've figured, it won't work moving the scene later.

                    However, it did strike me that I could add a whole new scene before this opening. A short little intro with the main character. That way this tricky time shift stuff won't be affected. It will add a bit of length, but it could work.

                    Ele...

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Disagreement with reps on a note -- need your opinions

                      Try this:

                      -Open with the MAIN character on the plane/train/car/bus heading West.

                      -The original open with the SUPPORTING character is now a FLASHBACK.

                      -Cut back and forth between the two.

                      -During the flashback you show the supporting character leaving a message for the main character to come out West and help. Or, maybe it is someone else who contacts the main character and asks for his help without the supporting character knowing?

                      You have now killed two birds with one stone by giving BOTH characters equal screen time, established the conflict/obstacle and showing the stakes -- The supporting character needs the main character's help to resolve it.

                      Would this work?
                      Positive outcomes. Only.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Disagreement with reps on a note -- need your opinions

                        Originally posted by elephant1978 View Post
                        Just for the record. I have given this note serious thought and tried to see how I could implement it. I didn't physically change the words on the page, but from what I've figured, it won't work moving the scene later.

                        However, it did strike me that I could add a whole new scene before this opening. A short little intro with the main character. That way this tricky time shift stuff won't be affected. It will add a bit of length, but it could work.

                        Ele...
                        Nice.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Disagreement with reps on a note -- need your opinions

                          Originally posted by elephant1978 View Post
                          However, it did strike me that I could add a whole new scene before this opening. A short little intro with the main character. That way this tricky time shift stuff won't be affected. It will add a bit of length, but it could work.

                          Ele...
                          Yes - I was thinking this was a possible solution (I think I mentioned it in an earlier post). It can even help make it funnier.

                          Show "Bob" (the lead) in some character-flaw-revealing situation on west coast then cut to scene with supporting character on east coast saying "I have to go to LA and get Bob to help me," the audience knows conflict is up ahead.

                          Try it -- it may be a win-win situation that serves the script.
                          Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Disagreement with reps on a note -- need your opinions

                            "I almost feel like they need to look at this situation and realize that they can't have it all. The math just doesn't work out. And that's what's bothering me about this whole thing. They don't seem to understand that moving this one scene will require the other things they liked to change. There's a bit of limited thinking, IMO. And that's what is making this so hard.-

                            To a previous poster: No, I am not a manager, but I work with a great manager on a project that I hope will be ready after the strike.

                            I landed the manager by way of spec scripts, but our current project was suggested by the manager and I follow the manager's notes during the outline stage as closely as I understand them. It has never occurred to me to question my manager, who has a great track record in selling spec scripts. Point is, what the hell do I know about story choices that might occur to me as a storyteller, but may not be the best thing for film? It is not artistic integrity to stick to your guns; it's bullheadedness. Writers do not always know what is best. Great managers, agents, and production people do, although they are not always right.

                            Nothing you have said here convinces me that your story choice is better than your manager's. I think your manager is right. Focus on the main character. No brainer to me. Yet if you think that you are right, then keep your minor character opening. You might lose a champion of the project, but at least you will be a true "artist.-

                            Sorry for the sarcasm, but why shoot yourself in the foot? Give others the benefit of the doubt. This is a collaborative business. The specs that you produce as an unrepped writer rarely find it to the big or small screen. Managers and agents like you because they like your writing in general, not because they want to sell or produce a particular spec script, especially one you wrote without input from others. A manager especially champions a writer's script because that manager enjoyed major input in shaping that story. Without careful nurturing of a writer, selling a script becomes much more difficult if not impossible.

                            Again, if it were me, I'd work with the manager and rewrite the entire script if necessary. Why else have a manager?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Disagreement with reps on a note -- need your opinions

                              Originally posted by elephant1978 View Post
                              I'm in love with the scene. I...
                              that's your problem right there.

                              give the script to two or three people. have them read it. then ask them about that scene. ask if they think it would better if it were moved back.

                              Don't ask if they think it should stay the way it is. Ask them if they think the scene should be moved back.

                              If they say yes, then do it. If they say no, stick to your guns.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Disagreement with reps on a note -- need your opinions

                                Originally posted by Farnsworth View Post
                                "I almost feel like they need to look at this situation and realize that they can't have it all. The math just doesn't work out. And that's what's bothering me about this whole thing. They don't seem to understand that moving this one scene will require the other things they liked to change. There's a bit of limited thinking, IMO. And that's what is making this so hard.-

                                To a previous poster: No, I am not a manager, but I work with a great manager on a project that I hope will be ready after the strike.

                                I landed the manager by way of spec scripts, but our current project was suggested by the manager and I follow the manager's notes during the outline stage as closely as I understand them. It has never occurred to me to question my manager, who has a great track record in selling spec scripts. Point is, what the hell do I know about story choices that might occur to me as a storyteller, but may not be the best thing for film? It is not artistic integrity to stick to your guns; it's bullheadedness. Writers do not always know what is best. Great managers, agents, and production people do, although they are not always right.

                                Nothing you have said here convinces me that your story choice is better than your manager's. I think your manager is right. Focus on the main character. No brainer to me. Yet if you think that you are right, then keep your minor character opening. You might lose a champion of the project, but at least you will be a true "artist.-

                                Sorry for the sarcasm, but why shoot yourself in the foot? Give others the benefit of the doubt. This is a collaborative business. The specs that you produce as an unrepped writer rarely find it to the big or small screen. Managers and agents like you because they like your writing in general, not because they want to sell or produce a particular spec script, especially one you wrote without input from others. A manager especially champions a writer's script because that manager enjoyed major input in shaping that story. Without careful nurturing of a writer, selling a script becomes much more difficult if not impossible.

                                Again, if it were me, I'd work with the manager and rewrite the entire script if necessary. Why else have a manager?
                                I don't even know what to say to that. I could find you a hundred produced writers who would say if they had not followed their visions; had they given in to the countless opinions then their scripts would've never been successful. Part of a writer's job is to look at the notes they receive and determine which will make the story better and which will not. But I don't believe it's a writer's job to roll over and make every change that is thrown at them.

                                I think you're being a bit unfair about this. I'm not being bullheaded. I've weighed the options and I still think my way is better. I'm sorry, but I don't apply to your rule that reps know everything. Personally, I think a writer without a voice isn't really a writer. I'll gladly keep my balls attached, thank you.

                                Honestly, I'm just astounded by your post.

                                Ele...

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