Dramatic Irony

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  • #31
    Re: Dramatic Irony

    Suspense is a feeling created in the audience of dreading something that they know about that the audience doesn't. However, it is different from dramatic irony because there is no different meaning.

    Dramatic irony is the situation where the meaning of a moment is different because the audience knows something the characters don't.

    Situational irony is when actions have a result the opposite of what was intended.

    Irony, in general, means that the meaning is different from the literal meaning.

    So the situation with the bomb under the table is suspense, but it's NOT dramatic irony unless, for example, I'm inviting you to stay with me for tea, and I know there's a bomb (as the audience does) and I know that you staying for tea will result in you getting blown up. In that case, it can be both suspense and dramatic irony, but dramatic irony specifically requires the changed meaning.

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    • #32
      Re: Dramatic Irony

      Interesting read: http://www.k-state.edu/english/baker...atic_irony.htm

      Also, I like the definition in Merriam-Webster: incongruity between a situation developed in a drama and the accompanying words or actions that is understood by the audience but not by the characters in the play
      Last edited by ; 02-09-2012, 12:53 PM.

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      • #33
        Re: Dramatic Irony

        Originally posted by Dr. Vergerus View Post
        @asjah8: It was meant to be an example of what I think is a wrong understanding of dramatic irony, taken to the absurd extreme.

        Going back to the situation of the bomb under the table, I think we could speak of dramatic irony if, for example, the couple at the table are lovers, holding hands and planning a future together with a white picket fence and three kids; the dramatic irony comes from the distance between their hopes and dreams, and the reality that we know and they ignore; we are like God looking at them and thinking "you poor things..."

        "Irony" because of the contradiction between both terms, expectation and outcome. "Dramatic" because they are both meaningful and have a certain intensity. There's nothing dramatic about sitting at a table and not expect anything unusual to happen.

        @The Road Warrior: I think he used this example in the book of interviews with Truffaut, but I haven't read it in a while. What do you think of my example in the second paragraph?

        I have that Truffaut book somewhere...

        but in the Penguin Dic of Lit terms, there's a further type of DI, which may fit your example Vert', I'll type out the main section then bold the second part-

        "dramatic irony: when the audience understand the implication and meaning of a situation on stage, or what is being said, but the characters do not. Common in Tragedy and Comedy, Oedipus does not realize his crime. Sir Peter Teazle does not know that his wife is behind the screens when he is talking about her toJoseph Surface (In School for Scandal)

        Another kind of dramatic irony occurs when a character's words 'recoil' upon him. For instance, Macbeth's 'bloody instructions' which 'return/To plague th' inventor'. In the event he is the one thus plagued. "

        It's more of a literary example but that makes no difference, so does that make your example right, if the end of your story shows the outcome of their lives? Or even foreshadows it, I think it does?
        Last edited by The Road Warrior; 02-09-2012, 02:26 PM.
        Forthcoming: The Annual, "I JUST GOT DUMPED" Valentine's Short Screenplay Writing Competition. Keep an eye on Writing Exercises.

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        • #34
          Re: Dramatic Irony

          How is the Penguin Dic of Lit terms? Would you recommend it?

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          • #35
            Re: Dramatic Irony

            Emily is definitely right. She provided a clear and concise definition as well as example.
            Ring-a-ding-ding, baby.

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            • #36
              Re: Dramatic Irony

              ... just reading further on irony generally and thought this was worth quoting and in a way it backs up what Emily is saying about the dangers of 'overthinking', which is sometimes an indulgence here... yes.

              "In Europe the concept of irony devoloped gradually and lagged far behind the practice of it. This is especially noticeable in view of the fact that by 1750 Dryden, Swift, Voltaire, Pope, Fielding and Johnson (to name only a handful of writers) had shown themselves supremely adept in the uses of this particular form of expression.
              In the wake of an increasing nuimber of practitioners came the analysts and theorists.
              and Done Deal-ists."

              D.I. is a part of the development of irony, in general, but analysis came late, in other words.

              To me, this means, don't box it in too quickly into any checklist, ironic juxtaposition, romantic irony, situational irony, these are each 'categories' open and flexible, but they are all related...

              anyway, enough of that...
              Last edited by The Road Warrior; 02-09-2012, 03:26 PM.
              Forthcoming: The Annual, "I JUST GOT DUMPED" Valentine's Short Screenplay Writing Competition. Keep an eye on Writing Exercises.

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              • #37
                Re: Dramatic Irony

                Originally posted by Dr. Vergerus View Post
                How is the Penguin Dic of Lit terms? Would you recommend it?
                It's exceptional imho, this partic edition is by J.A. CUDDON, it was old when I found it, 1979, but may have been updated, (but like Fowlers, from 2nd to 3rd, these things get ruined, sometimes) and it's the best dic of lit terms I've come across, just 'something' about the way it's written, the section on irony is anything but dry or too detailed, it explains how it originated, and split, evolved, by ref to plays/other works...

                http://www.amazon.com/Penguin-Dictio...sr=1-1-catcorr
                Forthcoming: The Annual, "I JUST GOT DUMPED" Valentine's Short Screenplay Writing Competition. Keep an eye on Writing Exercises.

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                • #38
                  Re: Dramatic Irony

                  Thanks!

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                  • #39
                    Re: Dramatic Irony

                    Originally posted by The Road Warrior View Post

                    "dramatic irony: when the audience understand the implication and meaning of a situation on stage, or what is being said, but the characters do not. Common in Tragedy and Comedy, Oedipus does not realize his crime. Sir Peter Teazle does not know that his wife is behind the screens when he is talking about her toJoseph Surface (In School for Scandal)
                    People who think screenplays cannot be great works of literature are crazy.

                    How about when two characters misunderstand each other but the audience knows what each character means. The misunderstandings could lead to tragic or comic outcomes.

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                    • #40
                      Re: Dramatic Irony

                      Originally posted by jonpiper View Post
                      People who think screenplays cannot be great works of literature are crazy.

                      How about when two characters misunderstand each other but the audience knows what each character means. The misunderstandings could lead to tragic or comic outcomes.
                      I remember that debate jon, I was on the screenplays as literature side if you recall, but I think we lost.
                      It doesn't bother me that screenplays may not be great works of literature, anymore...
                      Forthcoming: The Annual, "I JUST GOT DUMPED" Valentine's Short Screenplay Writing Competition. Keep an eye on Writing Exercises.

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                      • #41
                        Re: Dramatic Irony

                        Originally posted by Biohazard View Post
                        ANYTHING the audience knows that the character in the story does not know = dramatic irony.
                        Gotta disagree with you there.

                        The simplest explanation has already been given:

                        dramatic irony: when the audience understand the implication and meaning of a situation on stage, or what is being said, but the characters don't
                        I really can't see how the idea that having a bomb under the table that nobody interacts with or notices could possibly count as dramatic irony.

                        In my mind there has to be layers of meaning for it.

                        Look at 'The Incredible Hulk'. Early on in the film - before Bruce Banner realises that he becomes the Hulk when he gets angry - he says the line 'You wouldn't like me when I get angry' .

                        That's dramatic irony .. because the audience understands the meaning better than the people actually in the scene.

                        Yet without Bruce Banner saying the line we still have a 'ticking bomb under the table' ... because the Hulk could emerge and neither of the characters realise it.

                        And, once Bruce realises that he becomes the hulk any use of the line isn't really dramatic irony (from his POV) any more .. because he knows the full meaning of what he is saying - even if the person listening doesn't.

                        Nor would you call the entire first half of the film 'dramatic irony' even though every member of the audience understands about the Hulk yet none of the characters do.

                        That's my take. I'm not sure why other people disagree. We must use the English language differently to each other. When did that start happening?

                        Mac
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                        • #42
                          Re: Dramatic Irony

                          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPFsuc_M_3E

                          to add: Here's the link folks, Hitchcock on maintaining tension, and some other goodies down the sidebar, which some of you may enjoy.
                          Forthcoming: The Annual, "I JUST GOT DUMPED" Valentine's Short Screenplay Writing Competition. Keep an eye on Writing Exercises.

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                          • #43
                            Re: Dramatic Irony

                            Originally posted by The Road Warrior View Post
                            I remember that debate jon, I was on the screenplays as literature side if you recall, but I think we lost.
                            It doesn't bother me that screenplays may not be great works of literature, anymore...
                            You've got a fantastic memory, R. Warrior. We coulda won, had you brought up literary devices then.

                            Originally posted by Mac H. View Post

                            Quote:
                            dramatic irony: when the audience understand the implication and meaning of a situation on stage, or what is being said, but the characters don't Gotta disagree with you there.

                            I really can't see how the idea that having a bomb under the table that nobody interacts with or notices could possibly count as dramatic irony.
                            If the characters knew the bomb was under the table, they wouldn't be having a conversation about baseball. The characters don't understand, nor do they realize, the reality of the situation they are in.

                            Originally posted by Mac H.
                            In my mind there has to be layers of meaning for it.

                            Look at 'The Incredible Hulk'. Early on in the film - before Bruce Banner realises that he becomes the Hulk when he gets angry - he says the line 'You wouldn't like me when I get angry' .

                            That's dramatic irony .. because the audience understands the meaning better than the people actually in the scene.

                            Yet without Bruce Banner saying the line we still have a 'ticking bomb under the table' ... because the Hulk could emerge and neither of the characters realise it.

                            And, once Bruce realises that he becomes the hulk any use of the line isn't really dramatic irony (from his POV) any more .. because he knows the full meaning of what he is saying - even if the person listening doesn't.

                            Nor would you call the entire first half of the film 'dramatic irony' even though every member of the audience understands about the Hulk yet none of the characters do.
                            Quote:
                            dramatic irony: when the audience understand the implication and meaning of a situation on stage, or what is being said, but the characters don't


                            Even if one or more of the characters understand the situation, dramatic irony exists in the scene because there are characters who don't understand the situation. It doesn't matter if there is no dramatic irony from the pov of the character(s) who understand the situation.

                            All you need is one character who doesn't understand the situation.

                            During the first half of the movie, when none of the characters understand that Bruce can transform into the hulk, you agree that's dramatic irony in the first part of the above post then you disagree in the last paragraph. I'm confused about what your argument is, Mac.

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                            • #44
                              Re: Dramatic Irony

                              Originally posted by Ronaldinho View Post
                              Suspense is a feeling created in the audience of dreading something that they know about that the audience doesn't. However, it is different from dramatic irony because there is no different meaning.

                              Dramatic irony is the situation where the meaning of a moment is different because the audience knows something the characters don't.

                              Situational irony is when actions have a result the opposite of what was intended.

                              Irony, in general, means that the meaning is different from the literal meaning.

                              So the situation with the bomb under the table is suspense, but it's NOT dramatic irony unless, for example, I'm inviting you to stay with me for tea, and I know there's a bomb (as the audience does) and I know that you staying for tea will result in you getting blown up. In that case, it can be both suspense and dramatic irony, but dramatic irony specifically requires the changed meaning.
                              thank you, i think what i'm looking for is in here.

                              so i'm guessing that in dramatic irony, there needs to be a precursor scene to put the audience in the superior position...? and in situational irony there needs to be a payoff to what lead up to the situation being ironic...? also, i'm thinking the payoff can be immediate, in the following scene, or even later in the story as long as it's set up with the appropriate amount of emphasis...?

                              (sorry for the rapid-fire approach to my questions, just trying to get them out while thinking about them )
                              Last edited by asjah8; 02-10-2012, 08:46 AM.
                              life happens
                              despite a few cracked pots-
                              and random sunlight

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                              • #45
                                Re: Dramatic Irony

                                Originally posted by Mac H. View Post

                                That's my take. I'm not sure why other people disagree. We must use the English language differently to each other. When did that start happening?

                                Mac
                                "That is MY take."

                                Exactly, Mac H.

                                It is YOUR take.

                                One thousand people can watch a movie and each can come away with their own opinion on theme, CDA and irony. Who's to say any of them are wrong? Who's to say any of them are right?

                                But to assume that those who disagree with your take must be using English in a different way than you comes across as a thinly veiled insult against said disagree-ers.
                                il faut d'abord durer

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