When your manager says you're "holding back."

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  • #16
    Re: When your manager says you're "holding back."

    i don't understand the above advice although certainly well intended. a lot of really big words in it, for one.

    and it's like preparing a meal for a gathering of friends, serving it, and someone can at the end tell you how this wasn't seasoned correctly, the wine wasn't chilled enough, the horsdevors (really bad spelling mishap) were too filling and limp and the the appetizers completely failed, etc.

    you know, the reason the evening didn't knock over the critic may have been because his date ditched him, he showed up pissed off, and something about the table reminded him of his mother...who he is currently on the outs with...and he is allergic to seafood.

    i wouldn't get too 'specific' trying to understand the specifics of others. most people, when honest, will tell you flat out they don't really know what the hell they're talking about a good bit of the time, generally. and that's just generally, not specifically.

    i'd listen to all feedback for sure and be thankful for it, but then absorb and listen to your characters. see what they say about it. they love you, see.

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    • #17
      Re: When your manager says you're "holding back."

      Originally posted by amandag View Post
      Everyone communicates differently so there's really no way to know unless you ask. Someone else suggested this and I would strongly second it. You can waste so much writing time (and immersion fatigue) trying to interpret-- and most times people use completely different words to communicate the same thing.

      I would ask for specific examples (scene, plot points, pages) in the script that he felt needed a little more, as well as some tonal specifics. I would ask if he can give you a "bad example," even an example of a scene from another movie, so you can "see what he's seeing and make sure you're on the same page before taking it to the next level."

      There's no reason he should have any problem with that. It saves him read time on the next draft. The only time I've ever experienced any resistance to clarification questions is if the note-giver doesn't really know what they're asking for. Being on the same page makes both of your jobs a ton easier.
      Great advice from both you and AR. I already told him that after I finish the script he's waiting for, I'd like to delve deeper into the "holding back" observation. He's totally amenable, as I was certain he would be. I'm not gonna grill the guy but you're right: I need to "see what he's seeing." Who knows? Maybe it will be a revelation.

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      • #18
        Re: When your manager says you're "holding back."

        Glad he's amenable to discussing his thoughts when you're finished with your current rewrite. Hoping you do receive a useful revelation! Good luck with all of your projects, M.
        https://actbreakdown.com

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        • #19
          Re: When your manager says you're "holding back."

          Originally posted by amandag View Post
          Glad he's amenable to discussing his thoughts when you're finished with your current rewrite. Hoping you do receive a useful revelation! Good luck with all of your projects, M.

          Thanks so much. That goes double for you!

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          • #20
            Re: When your manager says you're "holding back."

            Speak directly to the manager about it. Ask for clarification, specific examples.

            Never be afraid of asking your manager a simple question. Talking to a manager is like talking to a regular person, not a god.

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            • #21
              Re: When your manager says you're "holding back."

              the feedback i've received is not terribly specific. it is more along the lines of 'i felt like...' than 'i think that...'

              -i really wanted to get lost in the story, but it just never happened.

              -the story starts so late.

              -the story is way too long. way too long. way too long. and you tend to repeat things.

              -when you moved the story (from such and such place) you lost all the tension.

              -open the curtains and shine more light in every so often. more daylight please!

              -i felt like i was drowning. too much.

              -i never did like her like i felt i should have. should i like her? i didn't want to. confused.

              etc.

              but every now and then it is nice to get something specific like, 'i think maybe you should have a stranger knock on the door at night, who won't go away. he keeps knocking, or something like that.' feedback like that knocks the character way out of their comfort zone, and the writer as well sometimes. very helpful. even when that sort of feedback will not work, it helps to realize the scene etc isn't working quite like it should. needs a knock on the door late at night. from someone who is not going to go away, and the reader will feel every bit of it.
              Last edited by AnconRanger; 06-24-2017, 12:57 PM.

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              • #22
                Re: When your manager says you're "holding back."

                Originally posted by AnconRanger View Post
                the feedback i've received is not terribly specific. it is more along the lines of 'i felt like...' than 'i think that...'

                -i really wanted to get lost in the story, but it just never happened.

                -the story starts so late.

                -the story is way too long. way too long. way too long. and you tend to repeat things.

                -when you moved the story (from such and such place) you lost all the tension.

                -open the curtains and shine more light in every so often. more daylight please!

                -i felt like i was drowning. too much.

                -i never did like her like i felt i should have. should i like her? i didn't want to. confused.

                etc.

                but every now and then it is nice to get something specific like, 'i think maybe you should have a stranger knock on the door at night, who won't go away. he keeps knocking, or something like that.' feedback like that knocks the character way out of their comfort zone, and the writer as well sometimes. very helpful. even when that sort of feedback will not work, it helps to realize the scene etc isn't working quite like it should. needs a knock on the door late at night. from someone who is not going to go away, and the reader will feel every bit of it.

                Agreed. Specific feedback is always helpful.

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                • #23
                  Re: When your manager says you're "holding back."

                  Some really good discussion. I can't add anything else, so I'm going to state the obvious...

                  Originally posted by MargoChanning View Post
                  When your manager says you're "holding back."
                  You say, "Shut up and dance with me."


                  (Walk The Moon)

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                  • #24
                    Re: When your manager says you're "holding back."

                    Originally posted by DangoForth View Post
                    Some really good discussion. I can't add anything else, so I'm going to state the obvious...



                    You say, "Shut up and dance with me."


                    (Walk The Moon)
                    Best advice yet.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: When your manager says you're "holding back."

                      Originally posted by AnconRanger View Post
                      the feedback i've received is not terribly specific. it is more along the lines of 'i felt like...' than 'i think that...'

                      -i really wanted to get lost in the story, but it just never happened.

                      -the story starts so late.

                      -the story is way too long. way too long. way too long. and you tend to repeat things.

                      -when you moved the story (from such and such place) you lost all the tension.

                      -i felt like i was drowning. too much.

                      -i never did like her like i felt i should have. should i like her? i didn't want to. confused.
                      On the contrary, lots of this is GREAT feedback.

                      Because the person telling you this is telling you how they reacted. That information is gold. That is the only true feedback someone will ever tell you.

                      When somebody tells you how they reacted to your script, they are always right. If they were bored, you can't argue with them - they were bored. That's vital information to know.

                      but every now and then it is nice to get something specific like, 'i think maybe you should have a stranger knock on the door at night, who won't go away. he keeps knocking, or something like that.'
                      But this is almost always terrible feedback. It's just something who isn't an expert throwing darts are your script.

                      It's so easy for them to give you a note like that, they're not thinking about it too much, and, heck, it only takes them an hour or so to read the script and give the note. You're the one who has to labor and make it work.

                      Now, sometimes you get a note like that and you can find the "note behind the note" - why is the person trying to add something to that part of the script? What wasn't working for them?

                      But that's the information you want. You don't want their solutions - you want their problems. Their proposed solutions are only useful to the extent that they help you understand their problems.

                      It's your job to come up with solutions.

                      You have to be the expert. You are the only one invested enough in the script to really put the work in to understand the implications of each change. (As the script moves towards production, other people may become equally invested - actors, the director, a producer - but most of the time you will still be, of all the invested people, the one who is the biggest expert on the story).

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                      • #26
                        Re: When your manager says you're "holding back."

                        good stuff as always.

                        i didn't say it wasn't good/helpful feedback (at least i don't think). i said it wasn't specific feedback.

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                        • #27
                          Re: When your manager says you're "holding back."

                          Originally posted by Ronaldinho View Post
                          But that's the information you want. You don't want their solutions - you want their problems. Their proposed solutions are only useful to the extent that they help you understand their problems.
                          This, right here.

                          Bear in mind Neil Gaiman's quote about feedback: "Remember: When people tell you something's wrong or doesn't work for them, they are almost always right. When they tell you exactly how to fix it, they are almost always wrong.-

                          Also bear in mind phrases like "I think that..." and "I felt like..." are a good sign. They show respect to you as the creator of and main authority on the script. Instead of making blanket pronouncement as if they were facts ("The pace is...," "The characterizations are..."), they're offering the only statement they can be 100% sure of - their own impressions.
                          "The intrepid Spaceman Spiff is stranded on a distant planet! Our hero ruefully acknowledges this happens fairly frequently." Calvin & Hobbs

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                          • #28
                            Re: When your manager says you're "holding back."

                            there is something ironic about neil gaiman's quote. at least to me. but i am a dumbbell. irony is tough on dumbbells.

                            it is all a twisted path through dark woods at times. and at other moments, you can picnic under the shade of the same trees on a sunny day. look up at the clouds and wonder aloud what they look like.

                            other days the clouds will dump heavy rain on your ass as you run toward your car. lightning shoots across the sky. 'put that in your picnic,' the weather says. and with authority.

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                            • #29
                              Re: When your manager says you're "holding back."

                              Originally posted by AnconRanger View Post
                              other days the clouds will dump heavy rain on your ass as you run toward your car. lightning shoots across the sky. 'put that in your picnic,' the weather says. and with authority.
                              Then when the rain stops and you rejoice, until you realize the rain hasn't really stopped -- there's just a giant, freaking, hungry ant, standing above you and shielding you from the rain.
                              "I just couldn't live in a world without me."

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                              • #30
                                Re: When your manager says you're "holding back."

                                Anyone who tells you that you are holding back in your creative work almost certainly means that you could do better. It is a nice way of saying that you are not trying hard enough.

                                "The fact that you have seen professionals write poorly is no reason for you to imitate them." - ComicBent.

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