Outlining

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  • #16
    Re: Outlining

    I do index cards on the wall (well actually I do large post-it notes on a whiteboard, with notes scribbled all over in between). I like that better than a written outline because I don't tend to plot in order - I define a very loose spine and then zigzag back and forth filling it in with beats. It's easier for me to do that when it's laid out visually and I can just move stuff around.

    It's pretty easy to distill that into an outline if I need to. When it's just me writing on my own I only do detailed outlines for individual sequences at a time, usually in cases where my notes wall only has a vague beat written on it.

    I used to just vomit draft and then do a billion rewrites, but I got frustrated by all the wasted effort. I usually wound up turning one of the drafts into an outline somewhere along the line anyway.

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    • #17
      Re: Outlining

      Thanks, omjs!

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      • #18
        Re: Outlining

        I do a bullet point thing. Sometimes I'll prose out a few pages. Especially for something atmospheric.

        I'm trying to work out how to do index cards, but I've never done it successfully. I like the fluidity of word processing.

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        • #19
          Re: Outlining

          I never did outlining without a fight -- even for school essays, etc., that I was supposed to outline. "Do a 20 page essay on George Washington." OK, I'm in fifth grade, I've heard and read all kinds of crap about George -- no problem. "And start with an outline." What the hell for? By the time someone else writes the outline, I'll be done with the twenty pages. I know this is a simplified example, but as a couple other people have said, the "outline" is automatic, in my head.

          Even for more complicated things, when the teacher insisted I show an outline, I'd write one because I had no choice but I'd completely ignore it when I wrote the essay.

          I always got high grades for writing. Crappy grades when I had to show outlines. "You didn't stick to your outline." That's right I figured out a better way to tell the story. What did you want me to do -- change the outline after I was done, to match the essay?

          And please, please, nobody tell me that you outline for an eight page short. I don't think I could cope with that. My head would explode.
          "I just couldn't live in a world without me."

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          • #20
            Re: Outlining

            Originally posted by StoryWriter View Post
            What did you want me to do -- change the outline after I was done, to match the essay?
            That's exactly what I do. Especially in screenwriting. I find that's an integral part to go back and forth between an intended outline and how it's actually playing out on the written page.

            The outline is where I wish to go, a map if you will. And the written page is the actual horse that will take me there, but where I only have partial control over this noble beast. Characters and situations are going to have their own logic, voice and things they will want to do in reaction of what I throw at them. I find that it's part of an organic process of give and take.

            Outlines, by their nature, are too neat and one can fall into whimsical tendencies if one is not too careful. Writting straight through without a map can be amazingly rich in discovery. But most likely the place one ends up in is not as interesting as it could be. The danger here is that the writing becomes episodic, with no clear dramatic arc.
            Manfred Lopez Grem
            WGA Writer - Director | Zero Gravity Management

            REEL - IMDB

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            • #21
              Re: Outlining

              Ordinarily I do not quote long passages. (Why do some people insist on quoting an entire post, no matter how long it is?) But I am quoting a few paragraphs here, because they are a really nice little essay on character.

              I find that my bro and I, after all of that outlining, *constantly* veer off of outlining in the scripting as we find more organic and true-to-character ways to make the plot unfold. That's the rub. Until you've lived with these characters and found them on the page, you and your outlining are kinda focusing on plot no matter how hard you try to find these beats through a conceptualized character. And, personally for me, plot sucks. Character is where it's at. Character is everything. We want to love, to hate, to be inspired to laugh or cry-this all comes from character, for the most part. No matter what you make happen to a character, it won't matter unless we FEEL something for or about them, be it reverence, love, hate, annoyance, pity, etc.

              As hard as we as writers try to make outlines present a logical story, I find (in my own reading giving people notes, in watching films, etc) that character motivation sometimes takes a back seat, and that is a cardinal sin for me. Stick to an outline over abandoning it to be true to character is a problem, as outlines can kind of become their own dogma if you let them. Outline, sure, but don't be a slave to it.

              Outlines kind of create their own brand of writer's block because the writing of the script can feel like homework or painting by numbers at that point. It is much less inspiring and artistic and freeing to write to an outline.
              Very nicely done, biglips.

              "The fact that you have seen professionals write poorly is no reason for you to imitate them." - ComicBent.

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              • #22
                Re: Outlining

                Depends on what's on the outline or on the cards. Depends on how clear the dramatic relationships are.

                The trick - for me - is that it's a first attempt at organization. The same outline should conceivably made completely different movies because there's more elements to be added that can't be spelled out on the outline.

                I agree not to be slave to the outline. Conversely, you can use the outline to think things through. Ultimately though you need to feel what's right for the specific scene and then re-read it and see it as an audience would. You can do a little bit of this refining at the outline level and it will save you a few drafts but those few drafts and rewrites will happen so I try to give it my best, not just perfunctory - and then you work as if you didn't had an outline - not totally forgetting it but as if you read someone else's movie and now you're tackling 'your' version. Makes sense?

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                • #23
                  Re: Outlining

                  I find, when I veer off of outline because of an organic character development, that it's a good time to make adjustments to the outline accordingly. It's not set in stone, after all.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Outlining

                    One can write using a map, or using a compass. Or maybe use a bit of both - but that might just be orienteering.
                    Know this: I'm a lazy amateur, so trust not a word what I write.
                    "The ugly can be beautiful. The pretty, never." ~ Oscar Wilde

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                    • #25
                      Re: Outlining

                      Originally posted by EdFury View Post
                      Does everybody hate outlining as much as I do? I doubt it.
                      You can't hate something you don't know.

                      But, seriously, I outline in my head. Of course I've never been paid to write a script so, if it was part of the job, I guess I would have to learn how to outline on paper. (Not much danger of that happening.)
                      STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I'm a wannabe, take whatever I write with a huge grain of salt.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Outlining

                        Originally posted by Crayon View Post
                        Outlining is the best part.
                        You've got to be kidding. If outlining was the "best part" for me, I wouldn't write at all. (And I'm dead serious about that.) To me writing is a creative process, outlining is a mechanical one.

                        But I DO realize that not everyone is the same. I can imagine that outlining could be a creative process. I can also imagine that all cows are blue and hover exactly eight feet above the surface of the earth.

                        (Obviously we're different here.)
                        STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I'm a wannabe, take whatever I write with a huge grain of salt.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Outlining

                          Originally posted by ihavebiglips View Post
                          2. You'll have to do it professionally.
                          Except that's not necessarily true. The OP of this thread specifically mentioned that he doesn't usually use outlines and that he sells his writing.

                          I'm always wary of "absolutes" -- things you have to do to be a writer. "Should," "helpful," ... maybe, "have to" ... no.
                          STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I'm a wannabe, take whatever I write with a huge grain of salt.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Outlining

                            Originally posted by Centos View Post
                            Except that's not necessarily true. The OP of this thread specifically mentioned that he doesn't usually use outlines and that he sells his writing.

                            I'm always wary of "absolutes" -- things you have to do to be a writer. "Should," "helpful," ... maybe, "have to" ... no.
                            Did I say you have to do it on EVERY assignment? No. But you will have to on some if not most... as the OP said he has to on this current assignment.

                            And my bro and I have definitely had to on each of the three feature assignments we scored. And it was a nightmare for the most part in terms of notes. We even had one where we made an insanely awesome pitch to a star and even heard back "best meeting ever taken in this room," after which he hired us to write the script and his execs made us outline and noted us to death until we weren't even really writing the same thing we pitched anymore.

                            I wasn't being "absolute" in that every professional assignment requires it, but I do put it at close to 100% that you will have to outline for someone at some point if you're a professional.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Outlining

                              Originally posted by Centos View Post
                              You've got to be kidding. If outlining was the "best part" for me, I wouldn't write at all. (And I'm dead serious about that.) To me writing is a creative process, outlining is a mechanical one.
                              This thread suggests that not all outlining is equal, and it's dependent on why it's done, how it's done, when it's done, and who it's done for. And - just to be a completist - where it's done. I usually do it in bed, on my semi-smart phone, and with a hand down my pants.

                              I suspect my outlining is quite different from what the OP does; not least because I'm a rank amateur.

                              For me, outlining happens when a scrappy text file, that contains just a premise and some ideas for key scenes/imagery/characters/dialogue, starts to become a skeleton story. It's when the ideas begin slotting into sequence and snowballing. Then I put some meat on its bones and gradually that 'outline' develops into the first draft.

                              [Apologies for the multi mixed metaphors.]
                              Know this: I'm a lazy amateur, so trust not a word what I write.
                              "The ugly can be beautiful. The pretty, never." ~ Oscar Wilde

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                              • #30
                                Re: Outlining

                                Trying to understand this from the producer/director point of view. Are they requesting an outline as a presentation document? In other words, do they want something as a sort of checklist/abstract of the screenplay to use for shorthand reference during production process? That seems different from "outlining" as part of the process of writing a screenplay.

                                If the former, it seems they're almost looking for a summary of scenes/story points, a step more detailed than a treatment?

                                Also depends on if the outline derives from a completed script or a proposed pitch/work in progress.

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