Writing on Spec Question

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  • #16
    Re: Writing on Spec Question

    Originally posted by LiteBrightWrite View Post
    I've been approached by a well known producer to write a script on spec.

    I know what the spec process is and while I don't like the idea of writing for free until the producer can find funding and sell the script to a studio before I get paid, I understand that's just how things work. I have a question: Should there be some sort of written agreement in place?
    Nobody here chiming in.

    I can't tell you what to do, but I'll tell you what I'd do... If I loved the idea and I thought I could execute it I would definitely consider it, but only IF I had a written contract that stated I would be the sole copyright holder-- and that it was not a collaboration or any kind of shared writing partnership.

    That after a specified period of time that if the producer couldn't get it set up (after a seriously reasonable amount of time), then I was not beholden to that producer and my manager and I could try to get it set up elsewhere down the line. The point is to keep your writing under your control. This may or may not be a deal breaker for the producer.

    The intentions or desires of the producer are unclear, so I don't know if their understanding is that because they have the idea that that entitles them to shared story by or screenplay by consideration. Those go to the person that actually does the writing.

    If they have an outline that you'd be working from then there might be a claim to shared story by (understanding that if WGA it would be up to the guild to decide credit).

    I would consider writing an outline, then submit it for notes. I'd write the first draft alone and turn it in, for notes.

    I would imagine that you could have your lawyer (a lawyer) draw up a contract for deferred payment for the steps (outline, first draft, second draft, polish) that, should the script get set up, you would receive some kind of immediate payment-- you don't get anything if you don't ask for it, right?

    You might not get everything you want, and you'll have to decide what the deal breakers are, but you are in a much better negotiating position if you know what you want and what your bottom line is-- it helps take any emotion out of it.
    Again, while I am new to screenwriting and I am getting great responses from many industry execs for my work. However, my biggest fault is that I am not familiar with what I need to do to protect myself in this process. I do have management but I'm not entirely sure his allegiance is to me or the producer.

    Any suggestions?
    It doesn't matter what allegiances your manager has. Your deal it with the producer. If you ink a deal you're happy with and can live with, that's all that matters. Your manager works for you, not the other way around.

    Your manager may give you advice, he/she may suggest you make certain concessions and as long as you ask the reasons for the concessions, and understand the motivations for what those recommendations are, you can make an informed decision to what you will agree.

    Good fortune to you.
    Last edited by finalact4; 12-23-2016, 08:08 AM.
    "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

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    • #17
      Re: Writing on Spec Question

      Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
      Nobody here chiming in.

      I can't tell you what to do, but I'll tell you what I'd do... If I loved the idea and I thought I could execute it I would definitely consider it, but only IF I had a written contract that stated I would be the sole copyright holder-- and that it was not a collaboration or any kind of shared writing partnership.

      That after a specified period of time that if the producer couldn't get it set up (after a seriously reasonable amount of time), then I was not beholden to that producer and my manager and I could try to get it set up elsewhere down the line. The point is to keep your writing under your control. This may or may not be a deal breaker for the producer.

      The intentions or desires of the producer are unclear, so I don't know if their understanding is that because they have the idea that that entitles them to shared story by or screenplay by consideration. Those go to the person that actually does the writing.

      If they have an outline that you'd be working from then there might be a claim to shared story by (understanding that if WGA it would be up to the guild to decide credit).

      I would consider writing an outline, then submit it for notes. I'd write the first draft alone and turn it in, for notes.

      I would imagine that you could have your lawyer (a lawyer) draw up a contract for deferred payment for the steps (outline, first draft, second draft, polish) that, should the script get set up, you would receive some kind of immediate payment-- you don't get anything if you don't ask for it, right?

      You might not get everything you want, and you'll have to decide what the deal breakers are, but you are in a much better negotiating position if you know what you want and what your bottom line is-- it helps take any emotion out of it.


      It doesn't matter what allegiances your manager has. Your deal it with the producer. If you ink a deal you're happy with and can live with, that's all that matters. Your manager works for you, not the other way around.

      Your manager may give you advice, he/she may suggest you make certain concessions and as long as you ask the reasons for the concessions, and understand the motivations for what those recommendations are, you can make an informed decision to what you will agree.

      Good fortune to you.
      I think you'll have trouble getting a producer to agree to much of this. If the producer had the idea and you write it on spec, they're not going to let you take it somewhere else without them, even after a reasonable amount of time. Even if they didn't have the idea, they're going to feel some ownership of it if you developed it with them. They worked on it. It's not about story credit, it's about producing credit. They'll want it. And I got the sense from the OP that it's the producer's idea, so I doubt they'll sign that away. They have no reason to. If you won't do it, someone else will.

      Also, you'll have trouble getting a lawyer to spend their time drafting and negotiating a contract for you to write something for a producer for no money, even with deferred steps. Unless you pay that lawyer up front, which is adding a financial risk to the time risk you're already taking.
      https://twitter.com/DavidCoggeshall
      http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1548597/

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      • #18
        Re: Writing on Spec Question

        Yep. Even when a producer has no legal claim to something, if they were attached in the past, they'll more than likely be a part of it going forward. No studio wants to touch something with a messy history - any buyer would probably either make a deal with the old producer or not buy it.

        And you can't negotiate a future sales deal with a producer - they don't buy it, even if it sells. A studio does. Even if you find a producer with a development fund, they don't even buy it then - the studio makes the deal with you for them. A development fund is just money that the studio promises they'll spend to acquire projects that the producer is attached to.

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        • #19
          Re: Writing on Spec Question

          Okay, I see what you guys are saying... it's really about developing together, in this case.I hadn't thought about the producing credit. I guess it all comes down to how likely the producer is able to get it made.

          So you're saying you doubt you could even retain the copyright? As the author? What's to prevent the producer from setting it up then hiring another writer instead? Then you might end up writing it for free then never gatting paid or receiving credit? Isn't that possible too?

          Couldn't you retain the copyright while also having an agreement where you would sell it together but negotiate your own respective deals with the third party separately? And in good faith of the project?
          "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

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          • #20
            Re: Writing on Spec Question

            Here's how it's supposed to work. A couple of writers I know (Scherick & Ronn) were brought an idea (Zookeeper) by a producer (Todd Garner). They wrote it on spec. The producer took it out; it sold for 2 million. They didn't have a pre-negotiated contract - they just rolled the dice.

            But that's ideal. Most situations aren't.

            First off, Garner is a very legit, very successful producer. That's the first hurdle - a lot of people have some kind of producer credits on films and zero power. You can't just look at imdb and say "they were involved with X,Y,Z, so they must be legit." There are associate producers, executive producers, line producers... Very few people with the credit actually "produce" in the sense we're talking about here.

            Second, Scherick & Ronn are established, WGA writers, so they have a powerful agency and the guild protecting their interests/credit. (Although the WGA only gets involved once it actually sells.)

            A lot of people being offered those deals aren't established and they're with producers without much clout. So if it doesn't sell... Sure, you own the copyright, but what can you do with it? They're still attached as producers (legally or by practice), so no one can buy it without cutting a producer deal with them. Which scares some buyers off.

            And all other sorts of fuckery are possible. They might bring another writer in to take a shot at the idea, and since you're not in the WGA, the guild won't protect you or get involved in credit determination even if it does sell. So it means that if it got made maybe you'd have to sue to prove your involvement, or maybe you'd just get offered some small amount to disappear and you'd have to take it or sue... It's just a mess.

            Remember, ideas aren't copyrightable, just the execution of ideas. So it's not a slam dunk case if a producer took a non copyrightable idea to another person and they executed it independently of you. Are you going to find a lawyer who'll take a shaky case on on contingency? Maybe. More likely, if you're determined to sue, you'd be paying lots of money you may never see again.

            The thought that you just take that great idea and it's yours free and clear if it doesn't immediately sell is a myth.

            That doesn't mean never do it. A big deal producer with a great idea - like the situation I went through above - might be worth trying. But you're basically unprotected and the odds that anything good happens are very, very slim.

            But then again, all success in Hollywood is a longshot.
            Last edited by JeffLowell; 12-23-2016, 03:41 PM.

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            • #21
              Re: Writing on Spec Question

              Anecdotal but there was a biggish producer one time who tried to get me to write an idea of his. I illustrated a lot of the concerns in this thread and he literally said that if he can't sell it, I can take it free and clear. I didn't end up doing it because the idea just didn't get there for me but you never really know. It's worth voicing your concerns because they might bend. Rare I suppose.

              At the end of the day, I'm not sure *owning* it really means much because truthfully once people start to say no, most potential buyers won't want it anyway. They like new/ not second hand things. Once it's been shown, you can't unring that bell. But projects are given new life at new places too. God, who knows?

              One thing is fact, you have love the idea. It's a commitment.

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              • #22
                Re: Writing on Spec Question

                Okay, I'm really going to sound like an idiot, but it's only inexperienced ignorance at play-- please bear with me and laughing is okay...

                JeffLowell, in this scenario the writers received the $2.0 million, right? What does the producer get? I'm trying to understand how they make money. The producer becomes attached for a specified $ amount that he negotiates for him/herself, right?

                Does the producer make money throughout the development or production or do they get a payment when principal photography starts? Do they get a take of the box office gross? Or are there various ways for deals to be struck (I'm guessing he latter) I would imagine any back end deal is best on gross and not net profits because they could probably make it look like something made nothing when it really did, right?

                Madworld, I agree it's a commitment. But things do sometimes take quite a while to get into the right hands. Timing may matter and something that didn't sell years ago, might still sell later with the right combination of the right people. I might be mistaken, but I think ProffessorChomp's Starfall was a little kinda sorta like that, no?

                This is very interesting and my apologies to LiteBriteWrite for derailing it a bit.
                Last edited by finalact4; 12-23-2016, 05:58 PM.
                "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

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                • #23
                  Re: Writing on Spec Question

                  Yeah it's not zero sum. Projects do bounce around and find new life. But it gets harder with every no, it just does. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It's always exciting to hear stories like Chomp's, I love it. The reality is as Lowell said, the overwhelming majority of projects you do with a producer of this sort mean you will not be able to divorce the project from the producer. But I still think it's worth taking that position (i.e. it's mine if we part) when you get approached to spec because if you're writing for free for months, often multiple drafts, it's comforting to know you will control the project if the producer becomes disinterested or can't set it up.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Writing on Spec Question

                    Madworld, here's my own story about producer attachments:

                    John Tucker Must Die was written as a spec. A producer took it into MGM. MGM bought it. It went through a lot of drafts, ended up dead. I did not enjoy working with that producer during the process.

                    A couple of years later, Fox wanted to buy it from MGM and make it. The original producer wanted to stay involved, even he was only contractually attached at MGM. I went to my agent and said I wanted the producer out. The agent said that legally, I could absolutely do that. But Fox wouldn't buy it in that case, because they wouldn't do that to the producer. Who had no rights.

                    I kept the producer involved. Eventually, he convinced the studio to fire me from my own spec, even though they were happy with my work. Such a lovely place, Hollywood.

                    Finalact:

                    When a producer is attached to a movie that's bought by a studio, they get a nominal fee. Usually five figures. But if the movie is made, they get their producer fee, which can run into the millions, and actual profit participation that pays out. Writers also often get points, but they're meaningless.

                    So, usually, a writer does much better if the movie isn't made; the producer does much better if the movie is made.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Writing on Spec Question

                      Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                      Madworld, here's my own story about producer attachments:

                      John Tucker Must Die was written as a spec. A producer took it into MGM. MGM bought it. It went through a lot of drafts, ended up dead. I did not enjoy working with that producer during the process.

                      A couple of years later, Fox wanted to buy it from MGM and make it. The original producer wanted to stay involved, even he was only contractually attached at MGM. I went to my agent and said I wanted the producer out. The agent said that legally, I could absolutely do that. But Fox wouldn't buy it in that case, because they wouldn't do that to the producer. Who had no rights.

                      I kept the producer involved. Eventually, he convinced the studio to fire me from my own spec, even though they were happy with my work. Such a lovely place, Hollywood.

                      Finalact:

                      When a producer is attached to a movie that's bought by a studio, they get a nominal fee. Usually five figures. But if the movie is made, they get their producer fee, which can run into the millions, and actual profit participation that pays out. Writers also often get points, but they're meaningless.

                      So, usually, a writer does much better if the movie isn't made; the producer does much better if the movie is made.
                      Hi, Jeff!

                      Can you tell everyone it was nice checking back in for me? I can't do it because somehow my computer and this message board don't mix. When I click "New Posts" or "Today's Posts" none of the new threads refresh.

                      It is infuriating and makes me have to leave this place. And if you tell me it's my fault the only reason I won't kill you is because this thread will never pop up!

                      Goodbye!

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                      • #26
                        Re: Writing on Spec Question

                        Originally posted by BattleDolphinZero View Post
                        Hi, Jeff!

                        Can you tell everyone it was nice checking back in for me? I can't do it because somehow my computer and this message board don't mix. When I click "New Posts" or "Today's Posts" none of the new threads refresh.

                        It is infuriating and makes me have to leave this place. And if you tell me it's my fault the only reason I won't kill you is because this thread will never pop up!

                        Goodbye!
                        I'm not much of a poster and don't want to derail -- but because this thread's advice/info is so valuable, I'll chime in that I'm having the same problem too, BDZ. You're not alone.
                        Hopefully a mod will fix it soon, or let us know the cause of the issue.

                        Anyway, carry on. These are some very interesting/helpful anecdotes.
                        Last edited by Stek; 12-24-2016, 08:13 AM.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Writing on Spec Question

                          Jeff thanks for sharing that, wow. BDZ I'm having the same problem, no refresh.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Writing on Spec Question

                            Ditto. Hasn't worked for me for months. To see new posts, I have to close the browser, re-open, re-log in, then go to new posts. And even that only works on Firefox. Gotta get this straightened out!
                            https://twitter.com/DavidCoggeshall
                            http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1548597/

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                            • #29
                              Re: Writing on Spec Question

                              Originally posted by ProfessorChomp View Post
                              Ditto. Hasn't worked for me for months. To see new posts, I have to close the browser, re-open, re-log in, then go to new posts. And even that only works on Firefox. Gotta get this straightened out!
                              It is not something we can straighten out, unfortunately. It's the coding of the forum software vs. some new browsers. I use Firefox all the time and it works fine, if and when I use that feature. It's a Google Chrome conflict/issue.

                              Not that this might help, but 99.9% of the time I never use that feature. Granted I'm more of an overseer of all, but still you can easily look down the main page of the forum and see where all the new posts are, then pop into that forum and all the new posts are at the top. This does sort of require one to mark a forum read each time, I guess, which I do for easy tracking. But I keep up with all and basically never use the NEW POSTS feature.

                              Upgrading to the latest software for vBulletin is such a nightmare and can frequently cause the forums to be disrupted, go down and/or even risk losing posts -- not to be melodramatic -- that it's just not worth it to update.
                              Will
                              Done Deal Pro
                              www.donedealpro.com

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                              • #30
                                Re: Writing on Spec Question

                                Sorry to hear about the vbulletin software issue, Will. That's unfortunate but understandable. Thank you for letting us know!

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