TV program creator. What credits are fair?

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  • TV program creator. What credits are fair?

    I could only hope this would happen to me, but I was wondering... If you are an unproduced writer, and after an outline, you write the original pilot (which could lead to a subsequent series)... As well as the 'created by' credit, is it the norm for a TV program creator/writer to be given the 'executive producer' credit (when you first sign a contract)?

  • #2
    Re: TV program creator. What credits are fair?

    Your title/fees are ultimately matters to discuss and strategize with your reps, primarily your agent and attorney.

    For an unproduced/unknown writer, I've heard it could be anywhere from Supervising Producer to EP. In my case, a friend and I sold a digital series. My attorney pushed for EP but in the end we got Co-EP on the show.

    Created by credit is determined by the WGA and requires a minimum of 6 episodes to qualify. We only ended up doing 3 eps so didn't get that.

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    • #3
      Re: TV program creator. What credits are fair?

      Hi, you mentioned:
      "Created by credit is determined by the WGA and requires a minimum of 6 episodes to qualify. We only ended up doing 3 eps so didn't get that."


      I fully understand credits are determined by the WGA, but what you have mentioned after this doesn't sound right. As,

      http://www.wga.org/contracts/know-yo...parated-rights

      - the WGA states, for a pilot show only:

      Generally, if no format has been written for the series, the "Created by" credit will go to the writer(s) who received the "Story by" or "Written by" credit on the pilot.

      Therefore someone who submits an original pilot script (assuming they also came up with the story), would automatically qualify for the "created by" credit concerning this first episode.


      For a series, the WGA states:

      There are two ways a writer becomes eligible to seek "Created by" credit on an original series:
      a. a writer writes a format for the series; or

      b. a writer receives "Story by" or "Written by" credit on the pilot episode of the series.


      Point b is highly significant. If you have received the "written by" credit in the pilot, you would qualify for the "created by" credit in subsequent epsiodes.

      How could a writer who came up with the complete story and script to begin with (thus qualifying for the "written by" credit), not get a 'created by' credit in the subsequent TV series that follows. It wouldn't make sense if they didn't.

      In regards, to the producer credits, I understand they are not governed but WGA.

      I would like to add, I have taken a look at nearly every TV series on film sites, and where it is not based on another person's material/another source, the person who created the pilot script i.e who came up with the first story (thus creating the characters) and penned the pilot (which is pretty much considered as the first episode), is awarded an 'executive producer' credit. Granted, these writers have had previous credits, but what they all have in common as 'executive producer' is they 'created' the program.

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      • #4
        Re: TV program creator. What credits are fair?

        From that same page, the line before "The 'Created by' credit on a series is not determined until there is a series order. " To qualify as a series order, at least a "short order", I believe it has to be a minimum 6 eps. That's what WGA credit department told me when I rang them last year, excited that I scored a creator credit, but alas. But for sure, if you get "written by" on the pilot and there's a series order, "created by" is pretty safe to assume.

        And, EP credit is not always a given. Mickey Fisher got it for Extant, but Eoghan O'Donnell got Co-EP for The Messengers and Philip Iscove got Supervising Producer for Sleepy Hollow (very loose IP, would argue it's more original). In the end, depends on how much buzz, heat, and leverage your agent and attorney have when negotiating.

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        • #5
          Re: TV program creator. What credits are fair?

          Originally posted by michaellino202 View Post
          I could only hope this would happen to me, but I was wondering... If you are an unproduced writer, and after an outline, you write the original pilot (which could lead to a subsequent series)... As well as the 'created by' credit, is it the norm for a TV program creator/writer to be given the 'executive producer' credit (when you first sign a contract)?
          No.

          I don't want to say it's never happened, but the best I've heard of for a real first-timer was a co-ep credit. (And yes, this was negotiated at the time of the sale of the pilot - a certain number of years of a guaranteed fee/credit.) Lower credits are common.

          Usually that credit is guaranteed for two seasons, although I know people who have gotten it for the life of the show. Bear in mind, though, that it may be a meaningless (but lucrative!) credit as far as your participation on the show. You'll be credited as if you were on staff, but whether or not you're actually in the room, and how much voice you have in the room, will be at the discretion of the showrunner.

          Even a few minor (but meaningful) produced credits can drastically change your standing, but generally as a first-timer you're going to be attached to a showrunner, and they'll also generally not want to staff people below you that have more experience than you.

          edited to add:

          Now, more than ever, this is the wrong thing to worry about. Screenwriting is about a career, not a job. The way the market has changed, you're much less likely to find yourself in a "create one hit, on easy street for life" situation anyway. Your agent will get you the best deal they can, and your job is to learn as much as possible while helping to make the show as good and successful as it can be.

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          • #6
            Re: TV program creator. What credits are fair?

            Wallman, you mentioned 2 writers who did not get executive producer credit for all episodes:
            Eoghan O'Donnell and Phil Iscove

            I get why Eoghan O'Donnell was co-executive for 11 episodes and executive producer for 2, as in subsequent episodes, his written input substantially reduced. Most of the episodes that followed the pilot had stories and screenplays written by other people.

            I also get why Phil Iscove recieved supervising producer for 31 episodes. As you mentioned, it is loosely based on someone else's work. (There are also 4 other creators). Lastly, out of a total of 62 episodes, he has written by credit on 1 episode, story by credit on 3 other episodes, and teleplay credit on 1. Therefore much of the work was written by others.

            Ronaldinho, you mentioned
            "I don't want to say it's never happened, but the best I've heard of for a real first-timer was a co-ep credit."

            I would understand a writer/creator of the pilot not receiving an 'executive producer' credit if they had little writing input/writing credits in the episodes that followed the pilot, as indicated in the 2 cases above, but I was thinking more of the fact where any creator of the series has writing credits in a lot of the episodes that follow the pilot, and if this were to happen, I would struggle to find a case where they were not executive producer.

            Also, in the writer's contract, permitting negotiations benefitting the creator of the program, the network could give the writer the opportunity to write
            X amount of scripts in the series. If their material is used in a lot of the series, I would again see it difficult to not award executive producer, if they
            are going to be responsible for a lot of the written content in that series.

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            • #7
              Re: TV program creator. What credits are fair?

              Your level on a show is determined at the outset, while episodes are doled out after that and aren't related to determining your level, rather your level might determine the number of episodes you get, but that's really up to the showrunner. In those examples, they all got the best deals they could get at the time given the situation.

              And Ronaldinho is right to redirect you. Honestly, especially if you're a first-timer, you're lucky to sell a show and get whatever credit you can on it. What's really important is how you perform as that will determine your next job and the one after that.

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              • #8
                Re: TV program creator. What credits are fair?

                Originally posted by Ronaldinho View Post
                No.

                I don't want to say it's never happened, but the best I've heard of for a real first-timer was a co-ep credit. (And yes, this was negotiated at the time of the sale of the pilot - a certain number of years of a guaranteed fee/credit.) Lower credits are common.

                Usually that credit is guaranteed for two seasons, although I know people who have gotten it for the life of the show. Bear in mind, though, that it may be a meaningless (but lucrative!) credit as far as your participation on the show. You'll be credited as if you were on staff, but whether or not you're actually in the room, and how much voice you have in the room, will be at the discretion of the showrunner.

                Even a few minor (but meaningful) produced credits can drastically change your standing, but generally as a first-timer you're going to be attached to a showrunner, and they'll also generally not want to staff people below you that have more experience than you.
                Nowadays, there seem to be almost as many exceptions to this as there are expressions of the "rule."

                There is, for instance, a network show premiering this fall whose creator, EP, and co-showrunner has never been in a writers' room and has never had a meaningful produced credit.

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                • #9
                  Re: TV program creator. What credits are fair?

                  Yes. I was wondering, would the terms of the type of 'producer credit' the creator can get, be set when negotiating the contract terms of the pilot (if they like the script and want to offer a contract), or could it be negotiated at a later point when a series is ordered (i.e the TV network likes the pilot
                  show and wants to make a series). Personally, I was thinking the terms of producer credits for the creator might be agreed at the signing of the first contract.

                  I find it too much of a coincidence the creator (s) of a TV program who have alot of 'written by' credits in a lot of episodes in the series, also have an 'executive producer' credit. I can only assume that at the beginning of the contract, (or according to the Producer's of America Guidelines), the creator/writer has said they were willing to write the remainder of the episodes, or contribute largely to the remainder of the episodes, thus entitling them to the 'executive producer' credit.

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                  • #10
                    Re: TV program creator. What credits are fair?

                    Originally posted by michaellino202 View Post
                    I find it too much of a coincidence the creator (s) of a TV program who have alot of 'written by' credits in a lot of episodes in the series, also have an 'executive producer' credit. I can only assume that at the beginning of the contract, (or according to the Producer's of America Guidelines), the creator/writer has said they were willing to write the remainder of the episodes, or contribute largely to the remainder of the episodes, thus entitling them to the 'executive producer' credit.
                    it varies from showrunner to showrunner. Matthew Weiner and Aaron Sorkin are notorious for taking a "written by" credit on most or all of the scripts, regardless of how much input they actually had (in fairness to them, my impression is they do substantial rewriting on all the scripts in a given season)

                    conversely, David Milch completely rewrites all the first drafts of his assistant's scripts but usually only takes one "written by" credit per season. showrunners like him are a mensch, willing to give even new writers sole credit

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                    • #11
                      Re: TV program creator. What credits are fair?

                      Originally posted by michaellino202 View Post
                      Ronaldinho, you mentioned
                      "I don't want to say it's never happened, but the best I've heard of for a real first-timer was a co-ep credit."

                      I would understand a writer/creator of the pilot not receiving an 'executive producer' credit if they had little writing input/writing credits in the episodes that followed the pilot, as indicated in the 2 cases above, but I was thinking more of the fact where any creator of the series has writing credits in a lot of the episodes that follow the pilot, and if this were to happen, I would struggle to find a case where they were not executive producer.
                      Well, the staff-level credit (EP, CO-EP, whatever) is going to be decided before the show goes into the writing room.

                      Obviously, if they know in advance that they're not hiring other writers, that says something.

                      Micky Fisher was not a first-timer with Extant - a well-regarded indie feature (particularly if you also directed it) drastically changes your standing. Eoghan O'Donnel had written a coupe of episodes of another show. Phillip Iscove WAS a first-timer ... and thus is it at all surprising that he had the lowest-level credit of any of the three?

                      I find it too much of a coincidence the creator (s) of a TV program who have alot of 'written by' credits in a lot of episodes in the series, also have an 'executive producer' credit. I can only assume that at the beginning of the contract, (or according to the Producer's of America Guidelines), the creator/writer has said they were willing to write the remainder of the episodes, or contribute largely to the remainder of the episodes, thus entitling them to the 'executive producer' credit.
                      This is incorrect. The connection between the number of episodes you write and whatever producer credit you get is complex.

                      Yes, if you're somebody they trust to write all the episodes without a room, you're probably ALSO somebody they trust with more authority and thus can get a bigger title.

                      But being an EP is about much, much more than how many episodes you're willing or able to write. It is a PRODUCER job, and honestly is probably more like directing a big budget blockbuster than any other job in Hollywood.

                      Originally posted by Anyothername
                      Nowadays, there seem to be almost as many exceptions to this as there are expressions of the "rule."
                      Indeed. I think short series and longer development lead times make it easier for studios to take risks. e.g., if it's an eight-episode series and they're not committing to making the show until they've got all the scripts (which is common for, say, Amazon) then they can take a bigger gamble on a lead writer with less experience.

                      I'm surprised that's happening at the network level, but at the end of the day, if they trust you, they trust you. The question is ... what's one's argument for being someone they should trust to run the show?

                      Who is the person you mentioned with a network show this fall?

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                      • #12
                        Re: TV program creator. What credits are fair?

                        Hello, when you say:
                        "This is incorrect. The connection between the number of episodes you write and whatever producer credit you get is complex."
                        and
                        "But being an EP is about much, much more than how many episodes you're willing or able to write."


                        There are executive producers who do not write anything, and in this case, the second point you have made would apply in this case, but in terms of the writer/creator being an executive producer, I will say this:

                        When you say "this is incorrect," - please could you provide a few examples of such TV shows to back this up (especially the hundreds of recent TV programs) where a creator has most of the 'written by' credits in a TV show, but does not have an "executive producer" credit.

                        Thousands of TV shows have been made. Don't take this the wrong way, but it is wrong to dismiss a point if you cannot give valid examples of TV shows to prove my case wrong. (You may well be right, but please provide examples).
                        I could most certainly give you a long list of recent TV programs where a creator who has many ''written by'' credits on the series has been awarded ''executive producer.''
                        Last edited by michaellino202; 09-18-2017, 02:01 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Re: TV program creator. What credits are fair?

                          It's incorrect because the producer credit is contractually determined at the time of sale.

                          And the writers room is only determined later.

                          They don't say, "oh, you ended up writing a bunch of episodes, we're going to up your credit." That's not how the contracts work.

                          Producer credits are determined when people are hired. Writing credits are determined when scripts are written, which happens AFTER.

                          You're also asking for an example that makes no sense. Go back and read my earlier post, in particular, when I wrote:

                          "Yes, if you're somebody they trust to write all the episodes without a room, you're probably ALSO somebody they trust with more authority and thus can get a bigger title."

                          In other words: you have the causality wrong. The EP credit is not CAUSED BY the writing credits, they are both a reflection of a different, third thing: the trust that the studio/network is placing in the show-runner.

                          If you're trusted enough to run the show, then you're (probably) trusted enough to run the writing room however you damn well please (although not always - Sorkin had a bunch of writers foisted on him at the beginning of Sports Night, although he eventually was able to fire them). And nobody is in a position to write every (or nearly every) episode of a show if they're not the show-runner.

                          Do you understand the difference, and why the example your asking for is nonsensical?

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                          • #14
                            Re: TV program creator. What credits are fair?

                            Hi, you mentioned,

                            "because the producer credit is contractually determined at the time of sale."
                            and
                            "oh, you ended up writing a bunch of episodes, we're going to up your credit." That's not how the contracts work."


                            Unfortunately, you have misunderstood what I have said. Firstly, I wasn't disputing the producer credit isn't determined at the time of sale. You
                            would know I had said of previous, the credits would be determined at the start of a contract.

                            I have been looking on sites likes imdb.com and can't find an example where a writer has made a large contribution and has a lot of "written by" episode credits, and has not been awarded an executive producer in that season. To add to this...

                            ...I also mentioned the creator/writer might have in his contract (when they first sign) how many episodes they are guaranteed to have the chance to first write... The point I am referring to is this, if someone has made a large contribution to the writing, which would be determined at the start of the contract, and if it falls into WGA guidelines of being a "written by" credit, I haven't seen an example yet, where a writer has made such a large contribution and has not been awarded with "executive producer," which would have been determined at the start of contract.

                            I totally except the fact, if someone is an established writer/producer who creates a series, they may contribute in other areas, or may not at all, and therefore may not have any writing credits after the pilot, yet still have an executive producer credit negotiated at the start of contract, because they have weight in the industry.


                            "Producer credits are determined when people are hired."

                            To add, I'm not talking about the other people involved, I am talking solely about the writer/creator who is there at the start. This is a deviation from the point.


                            "The EP credit is not CAUSED BY the writing credits, they are both a reflection of a different, third thing: the trust that the studio/network is placing in the show-runner."

                            Well, I'll say this... There is only one show runner, and they are the leading executive producer, but there may be more than one executive producer, and in most cases, several.

                            Again, to make it clear, I totally except the fact, if someone is an established writer, they do not have to make a significant contribution, but still have an executive producer credit negotiated at the start of contract... But I am referring to the fact that I have not seen an example where the creator of series who has many "written by" credits in a lot of the episodes (their level of writing determined at outset), has not also been awarded "executive producer."

                            Yes, I do feel it is important to provide examples to back up your facts, otherwise people can say the argument doesn't hold.
                            It is unfortunate you can't provide examples of a writer who has many "written by" credits in a season and has not been awarded an executive producer in that season, which unfortunately, only strengthens my case. (Perhaps because there is a lack of them??)

                            To be honest, I would actually like to find such a case (or cases), as I would like to see what could have been done to change that.

                            Anyway, don't take it the wrong way, I like a good, honest debate

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                            • #15
                              Re: TV program creator. What credits are fair?


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