How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

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  • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

    Originally posted by TheConnorNoden View Post
    I've been reading through the last few pages and became increasingly annoyed by all the nonsensical analogies.

    Yaso, if you can't learn anything from watching films you're either watching the wrong films or you are watching them wrong. Structure is important of course you can create your own fluid structure within time. But there are plenty of things that I would claim are even more important. Unfortunately a lot of them can't be taught or learnt (brit spelling).
    These analogies do work though, we are talking about rules, and learning by watching.... Not being able to do, by watching.

    because no I can't go play for the NFL just because I watch a lot of football, and no I can't sing just because I Hear a lot of songs, but by watching I can learn the rules of football, without the NFL playbook, and I can learn the basic structure of songs, without knowing a lick of music reading....

    Now if I don't wanna watch all these football games (read all these screenplays) then yeah, I CAN still learn the process by reading that NFL Rule/playbook/Save The Cat ect...

    No, you don't need to follow any formula,

    McDonald's does not need to make their sandwiches BREAD, CHEESE, MEAT, BREAD... They can make it MEAT BREAD MEAT...

    But if you are going to ahead and NOT follow proven methods, then that Sandwich better be some amazing muthafvcking sandwich... It better be better than a regular Sandwich.. Your script better be better than that regular script.

    Once I know the basics, then again I can break all these rules, but that Bread cheese meat bread format is there because it works, so if I wanna think outside the bun, I better be inventing something great, like a mvtha****ing TACO.

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    • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

      Originally posted by Yaso View Post
      I'm not denying that instinct is important for a writer. I'm denying that you gain that instinct by passively absorbing movies.
      If you don't have inborn talent ("instinct") to tell stories, all the studying of craft in the world is not going to make you a good writer. The post by madworld, quoting from Tony Gilroy is right on -- these formulas are forensic, they're almost always applied to successful movies in an attempt to explain why they were successful -- after the fact. (Same with the Hero's Journey formula.) Story telling naturally follows certain patterns (structure), otherwise it's not story telling.
      STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I'm a wannabe, take whatever I write with a huge grain of salt.

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      • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

        Originally posted by Yaso View Post
        There's a difference between FORM and FORMULA. A screenplay is a different form than a novel.
        I don't care if it's a novel or a screenplay. If it's a great story, people will say: "Wow! That's a great story!"

        I don't care if it's a novel or a screenplay. If it's a crappy story, no one will say: "Wow! That's great structure!"
        "I just couldn't live in a world without me."

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        • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

          This argument has been around since words were carved into stone tablets and it will be around long after we all are gone. Its just one of those things where there is no 'wrong' answer and no 'right' one. What is the difference between the mediocre writer and the really good writer?

          My hypothesis is that if we followed two college students around who wanted to become writers for a decade, after ten years one makes it and one doesn't. We look back at the tape and study the things each one did in pursuit of their goal. I'd like to think that the one who made it spent more time writing, they also did a better job of educating themselves whether it be in a classroom, reading a book, reading a script, watching a movie, they also are a much better editor.

          How much time do you really spend writing? Are you really putting quality hours everyday toward writing, editing, or learning? I know for sure, just from human psychology, people will over inflate the time and the though they claim to have put into a script.

          There is no getting around the grunt work, and for the ones who are really good - the grunt work is the fun part of a script. Figuring things out to the finest detail and watching the plot mature and take on its structure. That's fun to some people, for some really good writers its a love/hate relationship but they can't stay away. Too many amateurs are writing first drafts and think its time to query agents and managers while they clean the script up. Come on...

          You don't have to come on here and defend yourself if this is not you, cause there are some decent amateur writers in this community who still could break in if they can write a script on that next level. You don't have to come out and defend yourself, I know you exist.

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          • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

            Originally posted by Mpimentel View Post
            These analogies do work though, we are talking about rules, and learning by watching.... Not being able to do, by watching.

            because no I can't go play for the NFL just because I watch a lot of football, and no I can't sing just because I Hear a lot of songs, but by watching I can learn the rules of football, without the NFL playbook, and I can learn the basic structure of songs, without knowing a lick of music reading....

            Now if I don't wanna watch all these football games (read all these screenplays) then yeah, I CAN still learn the process by reading that NFL Rule/playbook/Save The Cat ect...

            No, you don't need to follow any formula,

            McDonald's does not need to make their sandwiches BREAD, CHEESE, MEAT, BREAD... They can make it MEAT BREAD MEAT...

            But if you are going to ahead and NOT follow proven methods, then that Sandwich better be some amazing muthafvcking sandwich... It better be better than a regular Sandwich.. Your script better be better than that regular script.

            Once I know the basics, then again I can break all these rules, but that Bread cheese meat bread format is there because it works, so if I wanna think outside the bun, I better be inventing something great, like a mvtha****ing TACO.

            We're supposed to be intelligent, informed writers. Relying on nonsensical analogies to make a point isn't the way to go. Speak in clear, blunt terms. For example, structure is important but not a single person will care what you do if it's that damn good.

            StoryWriter hit it on the head.

            This may be a craft but it needs heart and soul too.

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            • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

              Originally posted by Yaso View Post
              And bad models can be spotted by the mere fact that they are not applicable to all stories (If you want to write myth stories, keep using the Hero's journey by all means).
              Why should concepts like Ordinary World, First Threshold and so on be limited to myth stories. They're not.

              Originally posted by Centos View Post
              these formulas are forensic, they're almost always applied to successful movies in an attempt to explain why they were successful -- after the fact. (Same with the Hero's Journey formula.)
              Disagree.

              Look at SPECTRE. The layout's obviously influenced by HJ. You can use it to craft forward.

              Originally posted by sc111 View Post
              plot, theme, character development, dialogue
              Therein lie some good answers to the OPs question, I think.

              How to pace the progression of those.
              Story Structure 1
              Story Structure 2
              Story Structure 3

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              • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                Originally posted by TheConnorNoden View Post
                Yaso, if you can't learn anything from watching films you're either watching the wrong films or you are watching them wrong.
                That's not what I said. I said, you won't learn the necessary screenwriting skills by passively absorbing movies.

                Originally posted by TheConnorNoden View Post
                For example, structure is important but not a single person will care what you do if it's that damn good (...) This may be a craft but it needs heart and soul too.
                What's the difference between craft and ... "heart and soul"? For me that's one and the same.

                Originally posted by Centos View Post
                If you don't have inborn talent ("instinct") to tell stories, all the studying of craft in the world is not going to make you a good writer.
                Writer's instincts are not inborn, they are learned by application. Some people have inborn talent, meaning it's much easier for them to learn these instincts. Some bodybuilders gain muscle much more easily than others due to better genetics, but EVERYONE has to lift weights to make progress.

                Originally posted by Timmy View Post
                Why should concepts like Ordinary World, First Threshold and so on be limited to myth stories. They're not.
                Every story follows the same pattern. That's what differentiates story from everything thats not story. The universal structure of story -- meaning every story -- has a "first turning point" or "reveal", what's also commonly known as the "break into act two". In the hero's journey that's an actual threshold. That's because the Myth story is a variation on this universal structure. The hero's journey is a Myth story, but it's also a very specific kind of Myth story: It follows the quest of the warrior hero. There are many other Myth stories besides that.

                And by the way, James Bond is clearly a mythological character. He's a warrior on the quest to destroy a monster and he's getting magical tools for the job.

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                • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                  Originally posted by Yaso View Post
                  That's not what I said. I said, you won't learn the necessary screenwriting skills by passively absorbing movies.



                  What's the difference between craft and ... "heart and soul"? For me that's one and the same.



                  Writer's instincts are not inborn, they are learned by application. Some people have inborn talent, meaning it's much easier for them to learn these instincts. Some bodybuilders gain muscle much more easily than others due to better genetics, but EVERYONE has to lift weights to make progress.



                  Every story follows the same pattern. That's what differentiates story from everything thats not story. The universal structure of story -- meaning every story -- has a "first turning point" or "reveal", what's also commonly known as the "break into act two". In the hero's journey that's an actual threshold. That's because the Myth story is a variation on this universal structure. The hero's journey is a Myth story, but it's also a very specific kind of Myth story: It follows the quest of the warrior hero. There are many other Myth stories besides that.

                  And by the way, James Bond is clearly a mythological character. He's a warrior on the quest to destroy a monster and he's getting magical tools for the job.
                  I think even on a passive level you learn from watching films. Children don't study story structure but some of them can tell a good story because they just get them due to prior exposure.

                  Heart and soul is completely different. Heart and soul is imagination, dealing with complex human emotions and the desire to explore strong themes in new and interesting ways. None of these things can be taught. And that is heart and soul, the desire to entertain and make something that actually matters.

                  You say every story is the same but I just can't agree. I referenced Ozu before, does Tokyo Story follow the same pattern as say, The Hunger Games? Does Persona have the same pattern as The Avengers? Does Distant Voices, Still Lives share a lot of DNA with Fast 7? These are unique films that I would argue deviate from any universal structure. Your desire to reduce films to a scientific pattern defeats the point of film. They are acts of passion and have the capability to be something you have never seen before. Why on earth as a creative person would I want to follow a universal pattern?

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                  • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                    Originally posted by Timmy View Post
                    Disagree.

                    Look at SPECTRE. The layout's obviously influenced by HJ. You can use it to craft forward.
                    Not to be too obnoxious, but aren't all Bond movies more or less derivative of all other Bond movies? I think it's called a franchise.

                    Honestly, I've always thought of Bond as an egotistical ahole. I've never made it all the way though any Bond movie. I haven't seen SPECTRE, but I doubt if it was intended to "craft forward". I have no idea what "HJ" is.

                    My personal opinion.
                    "I just couldn't live in a world without me."

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                    • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                      Originally posted by TheConnorNoden View Post
                      I think even on a passive level you learn from watching films. Children don't study story structure but some of them can tell a good story because they just get them due to prior exposure.
                      A joke is a story in a very basic form. Of course that's easier to learn than a feature film, which is much more complex.

                      Heart and soul is completely different. Heart and soul is imagination, dealing with complex human emotions and the desire to explore strong themes in new and interesting ways. None of these things can be taught.
                      I argue that it belongs to our craft and that it can be taught.

                      You say every story is the same but I just can't agree. I referenced Ozu before, does Tokyo Story follow the same pattern as say, The Hunger Games? Does Persona have the same pattern as The Avengers? Does Distant Voices, Still Lives share a lot of DNA with Fast 7? These are unique films that I would argue deviate from any universal structure. Your desire to reduce films to a scientific pattern defeats the point of film. They are acts of passion and have the capability to be something you have never seen before. Why on earth as a creative person would I want to follow a universal pattern?
                      Of course they follow the same pattern. They are all stories, are they not?

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                      • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                        Originally posted by Yaso View Post
                        A joke is a story in a very basic form. Of course that's easier to learn than a feature film, which is much more complex.



                        I argue that it belongs to our craft and that it can be taught.



                        Of course they follow the same pattern. They are all stories, are they not?
                        I never said a joke. Children can write wildly imaginative longform stories. And I imagine very few highly creative children have sat down to read up on story theory.

                        No, absolutely not. Imagination cannot be taught.

                        Explain to me how they follow the same pattern. I call b******t.

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                        • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                          Originally posted by figment
                          Can we get back to the OP's question? Or are we going to continue arguing about meat, cheese, and the hero's journey?
                          Fair enough.

                          I was just trying to make the point that you can use the hero's journey to pace.

                          Originally posted by figment
                          When a story lulls it is sometimes because you've lost sight of the protagonist -- he should be the guiding force of the piece, even when he isn't on screen.
                          So take THE GODFATHER

                          To me it's all about Michael's transformation. It doesn't matter that he's not there when Sollozzo is refused or when the Don is shot - they all act to pull him back and change him.

                          Which then comes down to pacing the arc(s).
                          Story Structure 1
                          Story Structure 2
                          Story Structure 3

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                          • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                            Originally posted by figment
                            ctp, considering where this thread has gone, you have the patience of a saint.
                            Yep, unfortunately a lot these discussions often veer off in this direction.

                            A certain percentage of people think a script (or any story) is manufactured by a sterile mechanical process, that anyone can master if they just learn to follow the correct assembly instructions. And (often) these assembly instructions are insanely rigorous.

                            Many of them aren't story tellers. So they're completely lost without those assembly instructions.

                            It's just the way it is. These insanely rigorous assembly instructions exist for people who "want" to write, the same way paint-by-number sets exist for people who "want" to paint.
                            Last edited by StoryWriter; 11-11-2015, 06:18 PM.
                            "I just couldn't live in a world without me."

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                            • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                              Originally posted by Timmy View Post
                              Disagree.

                              Look at SPECTRE. The layout's obviously influenced by HJ. You can use it to craft forward.
                              You've talked to the writer about this? Since I didn't even know what "Spectre" was (I assumed a horror story) I had to look it up. It's a James Bond movie. You're saying the writer went to the hero's journey template instead of falling back on other James Bond action movies here? Since I've read that the hero's journey template requires a mentor... was there one in "Spectre?" There could be, but that would a departure from other James Bond movies -- at least the couple of them I saw a long, long time ago.
                              STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I'm a wannabe, take whatever I write with a huge grain of salt.

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                              • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                                Originally posted by StoryWriter View Post
                                Yep, unfortunately a lot these discussions often veer off in this direction.

                                A certain percentage of people think a script (or any story) is manufactured by a sterile mechanical process, that anyone can master if they just learn to follow the correct assembly instructions. And (often) these assembly instructions are insanely rigorous.

                                Many of them aren't story tellers. So they're completely lost without those assembly instructions.

                                It's just the way it is. These insanely rigorous assembly instructions exist for people who "want" to write, the same way paint-by-number sets exist for people who "want" to paint.
                                I would say this is largely true. The reality -- an innate talent for storytelling is required. There's no way around it. Years ago, I did a favor for a friend who worked for the local community college and needed a teacher for a non-matric continuing ed course in creative writing (the original teacher left my friend hanging).

                                There were 12 people in the class -- more than half over 60 and retired, the rest in their 30s. First evening I have everyone introduce themselves and talk a little about their writing and what they hoped to gain from the class.

                                One of the seniors was quite an erudite lady who had been at it for several years. She listed all the bestselling novelists she had studied with -- some at 3-day seminars, others at week-long writing retreats (all of them expensive). And she was taking this class to stay 'warmed up' for the next big retreat she had lined up.

                                I was duly intimidated. But at least I could look forward to some great work from her, right?

                                Ummm, no. She was the worst writer in the class. Trite, derivative storylines with stilted dialogue uttered by stereotyped characters. Oddly enough, she gave insightful feedback on the other students' work. She knew good writing when she saw it. She knew how to analyze and deconstruct a story with skill. Yet, with all the hours she had racked up working and studying with those bestselling novelists none of her knowledge improved the quality of her writing. It was amazing, in a weird way.

                                Yes, I know, it was a hobby for her. She liked to hobnob with famous writers and hang with other hobnobbers of famous writers. But you would imagine with all that time immersed in it all something would seep into her work. Nope.
                                Last edited by sc111; 11-11-2015, 08:23 PM.
                                Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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