Theme and Opposing conflict

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  • #31
    Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

    Originally posted by docgonzo View Post
    I'm going to copy and paste from Wikipedia, since I don't have time to write anything lengthy on my own. But I will say that Alien is one of the more over-analyzed movies in regard to theme and metaphor.

    Critics have analyzed Alien's sexual overtones. Following Barbara Creed's analysis of the Alien creature as a representation of the "monstrous-feminine as archaic mother",[107] Ximena Gallardo C. and C. Jason Smith compared the facehugger's attack on Kane to a male rape and the chestburster scene to a form of violent birth, noting that the Alien's phallic head and method of killing the crew members add to the sexual imagery.[108][109] Dan O'Bannon, who wrote the film's screenplay, has argued that the scene is a metaphor for the male fear of penetration, and that the "oral invasion" of Kane by the facehugger functions as "payback" for the many horror films in which sexually vulnerable women are attacked by male monsters.[110] McIntee claims that "Alien is a rape movie as much as Straw Dogs (1971) or I Spit on Your Grave (1978), or The Accused (1988). On one level, it's about an intriguing alien threat. On one level it's about parasitism and disease. And on the level that was most important to the writers and director, it's about sex, and reproduction by non-consensual means. And it's about this happening to a man."[111] He notes how the film plays on men's fear and misunderstanding of pregnancy and childbirth, while also giving women a glimpse into these fears.
    There's plenty of twaddle in that Wiki passage - not least "monstrous-feminine as archaic mother". The alien monster in Alien [1979] is neither "feminine" nor "mother". (That's in the sequel.)

    Yes, in what happens to Kane, the rape and childbirth metaphors are clear. However, that's only one relatively small part of the movie, the elements of which do not recur, and it's not enough to make rape and childbirth the movie's "theme".

    Alien [1979] is a haunted-house-in-space slasher-style creature feature. It has an antagonist with unique methods, but so what? It does not have a "theme" (so no "thematic elements") - and there's nothing wrong with that.

    But hold judgement, folks, because according to Satriales, Alien [1979] does "in fact" contain "thematic elements", and Satriales is finally going to state them without ambiguity any minute now ...
    Know this: I'm a lazy amateur, so trust not a word what I write.
    "The ugly can be beautiful. The pretty, never." ~ Oscar Wilde

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    • #32
      Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

      Originally posted by Bono View Post
      My point about theme is that there is

      1. what the writer was thinking
      2. what a viewer thinks the theme is

      They rarely line up. Doesn't mean they failed.
      When the two don't line up is exactly what I mean by the writer failed.

      The writer either wants an audience to identify the intended theme or he/she doesn't care if the audience recognizes the intended theme.

      I think the writer fails if he or she expects the former and the viewers don't see the theme the writer was thinking of, but sees other themes.

      Maybe fails is too strong, since seeing other themes is not really a failure.

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      • #33
        Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

        My point is I don't really think about theme directly when I write. It just sort of happens. So to me over thinking about theme gets in my way the same way other writers tell me hitting certain beats in certain spots gets in their way when writing.

        A writer failed if the story stinks. That's how I see it.

        Any piece of creative work -- we can find a theme for.

        So the argument that some movies (and a great movie too) don't have a theme is too stupid to argue.

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        • #34
          Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

          Originally posted by Bono View Post
          My point is I don't really think about theme directly when I write. It just sort of happens. So to me over thinking about theme gets in my way the same way other writers tell me hitting certain beats in certain spots gets in their way when writing.

          A writer failed if the story stinks. That's how I see it.

          Any piece of creative work -- we can find a theme for.

          So the argument that some movies (and a great movie too) don't have a theme is too stupid to argue.
          Bono - Oh great, so you know the theme of Alien [1979]? Come on then, don't be shy, spit it out ...
          Know this: I'm a lazy amateur, so trust not a word what I write.
          "The ugly can be beautiful. The pretty, never." ~ Oscar Wilde

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          • #35
            Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

            In the latest episode of scriptnotes #466 the question comes up at about 30 minutes in where a writer asks if it's ok that he seems to be writing the same story theme over and over again. The stories have different characters the plots are different and in different genres but the theme is the same. If I'm understanding John and Craig's response correctly it's not at all bad to be writing the same theme again and again. It's your personality and beliefs that give rise to your themes. To add my own understanding I'd suggest theme is your voice. You want to have voice. Your voice separates you from the rest of the writing crowd.
            Free Script Reads and Notes

            ​
            ​

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            • #36
              Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

              Originally posted by Bono View Post
              Theme to me is "what is this movie really about?" / "what is the writer trying to say - the big idea" so I feel it's almost impossible for a movie not to have a theme -- but maybe the theme most viewers see is not the one the writer was going for.
              This rings true.

              Originally posted by sc111 View Post
              A 2007 monster thread on theme. Worth the read:

              http://messageboard.donedealpro.com/...ad.php?t=32288
              Thanks for sending me down this rabbit hole, sc111, I read one page, only a thousand more to go.

              Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
              I think the best use of theme is a question that you can argue either side of, and that's what the characters do during the movie, through their actions.
              This -- you can see it starkly in a movie like Wall Street, where the antagonist Gordon Gecko literally states the theme that is going to be argued throughout the movie: "Greed is good."

              Then you've got Bud, our protagonist, who doesn't know his ass from his elbow, galloping after money, willingly giving insider trading tips, idolizing Gecko's wealth and power. Then you've got Bud's father, Martin Sheen -- a working man, union man, who represents the opposite. He screams at Charlie (Bud) during an argument: "I never judged a man by the size of his wallet!" condemning his son's outlook that "greed is good."

              The theme "Greed is good" is an argument. Is it good? In the course of the movie we find it is not. It means going to jail for insider trading. It means losing your expensive NY apartment. I means losing your posh girlfriend Daryl Hannah, because she doesn't actually like you, she was just there for the money. It means you've disappointed your union airline worker father.

              I think it would be hard to write with a theme this stark for every movie you write, where where people are literally screaming "Greed is good!!" because in lesser hands it can easily come off as a lecture rather than entertainment.

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              • #37
                Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

                Originally posted by Mark Somers View Post
                In the latest episode of scriptnotes #466 the question comes up at about 30 minutes in where a writer asks if it's ok that he seems to be writing the same story theme over and over again. The stories have different characters the plots are different and in different genres but the theme is the same. If I'm understanding John and Craig's response correctly it's not at all bad to be writing the same theme again and again. It's your personality and beliefs that give rise to your themes. To add my own understanding I'd suggest theme is your voice. You want to have voice. Your voice separates you from the rest of the writing crowd.
                Agreed on all points. David Lynch and Terrence Malick are two obvious examples where they are generally exploring the same themes within different stories/movies.

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                • #38
                  Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

                  Figment:

                  Thanks for sending me down this rabbit hole, sc111, I read one page, only a thousand more to go.
                  Just focus on Taotropics comments -- highly useful. Of course, since he's a pro writer, people rushed to pan his produced works to discredit his point and the thread went sideways.
                  Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

                    Originally posted by Crayon View Post

                    Yes, in what happens to Kane, the rape and childbirth metaphors are clear. However, that's only one relatively small part of the movie, the elements of which do not recur, and it's not enough to make rape and childbirth the movie's "theme".

                    Alien [1979] is a haunted-house-in-space slasher-style creature feature. It has an antagonist with unique methods, but so what? It does not have a "theme" (so no "thematic elements") - and there's nothing wrong with that.

                    But hold judgement, folks, because according to Satriales, Alien [1979] does "in fact" contain "thematic elements", and Satriales is finally going to state them without ambiguity any minute now ...
                    I offered a theme. You ignored it.

                    IMO, the Alien itself reflects the darkest of human impulses: survival of the species at all costs.

                    The fact that you don't see a theme being explored is a testament to the writing because you're not hit over the head with it on page 3 a la Save the Cat.

                    Watch it again. You'll find theme.
                    Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

                      One writer's opinion that I haven't seen in this thread is the inseparable relationship between the concept and the theme. The stronger the concept, the higher the concept, the clearer we can see the themes possible without having to have the writer in the room.

                      Memento
                      Liar Liar
                      Seven
                      Coming To America
                      Groundhog Day
                      It's A Wonderful Life
                      Tootsie
                      Big
                      The Sixth Sense
                      Minority Report
                      Blade Runner

                      Which leads me to Alien. It's Jaws in space. But of course it's more than that. I don't know how many execs would get that excited about themes of Mother, Ripley and the corporation.

                      Story idea/concept and theme are inexorably linked. You should know one, because you know the other, like the back of your hand. If it's not unfolding, if you're worried about theme, go back and look at your concept.
                      #writinginaStarbucks #re-thinkingmyexistence #notanotherweaklogline #thinkingwhatwouldWilldo

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                      • #41
                        Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

                        Originally posted by Bono View Post
                        Theme to me is "what is this movie really about?" / "what is the writer trying to say - the big idea" so I feel it's almost impossible for a movie not to have a theme ...
                        That's a non sequitur - the fallacious type, not the comedic.
                        Know this: I'm a lazy amateur, so trust not a word what I write.
                        "The ugly can be beautiful. The pretty, never." ~ Oscar Wilde

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

                          Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                          I offered a theme. You ignored it.

                          IMO, the Alien itself reflects the darkest of human impulses: survival of the species at all costs.

                          The fact that you don't see a theme being explored is a testament to the writing because you're not hit over the head with it on page 3 a la Save the Cat.

                          Watch it again. You'll find theme.
                          You offered a "thematic question" (a hypothetical: what if the ultimate danger were to arise from an irresponsible quest for scientific[?] knowledge) and I ignored it because I don't accept that it's the theme of Alien because it's not explored in the screen-story.

                          The actual danger in Alien firstly comes unbidden from a dutiful response to a distress call, and secondly from the antagonist Ash being an agent of corporate greed which regards individual lives as expendable. But even those two story elements aren't explored enough to constitute a theme for the movie.

                          Now you've raised the issue of the Alien/human survival instinct. Are you saying that that's a theme? It's clearly a story element (protagonists and antagonists in most stories want to survive) but if you count that as a theme then how many of the other story elements in Alien are also a theme? You may as well say that employment rights and animal welfare are themes.
                          Know this: I'm a lazy amateur, so trust not a word what I write.
                          "The ugly can be beautiful. The pretty, never." ~ Oscar Wilde

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

                            Movies without a theme?

                            Rear Window [1954]
                            Ben-Hur [1959]
                            Psycho [1960]
                            Jason And The Argonauts [1963]
                            Carry On Screaming! [1966]
                            Where Eagles Dare [1968]
                            2001: A Space Odyssey [1968]
                            The Texas Chain Saw Massacre [1974]
                            Jaws [1975]
                            Monty Python And The Holy Grail [1975]
                            Alien [1979]
                            The Shining [1980]
                            The Terminator [1984]
                            Die Hard [1988]
                            Speed [1994]
                            Titanic [1997]
                            28 Days Later [2002]
                            Night At The Museum [2006]
                            The Cabin In The Woods [2011]
                            Gravity [2013]
                            Bone Tomahawk [2015]
                            The Revenant [2015]
                            Darkest Hour [2017]
                            Get Out [2017]
                            every James Bond movie
                            every Mission Impossible movie

                            [Those movies are just the ones that happen to come to mind. I've not seen them all (and some not in a long while) so some may have a theme that I'm unaware of.]
                            Know this: I'm a lazy amateur, so trust not a word what I write.
                            "The ugly can be beautiful. The pretty, never." ~ Oscar Wilde

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

                              For me, theme is one of those elements that exists within the world and story you're creating. It can be a question posed by you the author, or an obstacle within the narrative or even a specific pov. Take a movie like Ghost. On the surface it's a supernatural dramedy anchored by a love story. Look a little deeper and you see that the theme is tied into the mindset of each of the key characters.

                              Sam can't openly allow Molly into his heart fully hence him always using the word Ditto rather than I love you. Oda has a unique gift in that she can channel the spirit world but doesn't allow herself to fully embrace this. Molly struggles to believe that Sam still exists beyond the mortal world. By the end of the story they've all accepted these things. We see early on (when Sam and Molly move into their apartment) them knocking down a wall. That's (IMHO) the theme of the movie. To break down walls and let yourself be free, vulnerable. To let go.

                              Not saying this is gospel, it's just my take.

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                              • #45
                                Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

                                2007 Thread started by Taotropics (screenwriter William Wheeler) titled: The nature and meaning of "theme"

                                Theme is the most widely misunderstood screenwriting concept. Time and again I see people refer to theme as "the message" of a film - as if the purpose of theme in the context of story is to hide a platitude in there somewhere that everyone will hear and agree with.

                                The great films with mature, developed themes do not do this. Rather their stories become testing grounds for provocative thesis/antithesis dialectics. The great discussions of philosophy are embodied by the story, played out with characters with contradictory views of the world or on two opposite sides of a philosophical conundrum. George Bernard Shaw's plays are wonderful examples of the "dialectical" method. Embody two schools of thought in two different characters and let them go at it.

                                A theme is an "idea that recurs in and pervades a work of art or literature".

                                But just to have a recurring idea or motif is not enough - it is the quality of that idea that will determine the quality of your story.

                                A powerful story has what McKee calls "a controlling idea" and what I like to call a "thesis". If we recall our high school composition classes, a successful essay contains a thesis that is somewhat provocative. And ideally a thesis that has a compelling antithesis.

                                You are forwarding an argument which you will then buttress with facts, opinions and anecdotes. If you write a composition with the controversial thesis: "Love is better than hate" you are asking the reader to sit through your essay bored out of their minds. No reasonable person will dispute that contention. It isn't really a thesis - it's a platitude, a piece of pablum. And most insidious to a writer - it is not a point of view about the world that shows an independent and original perspective.

                                Writers are supposed to be people that put forward ideas that may not be immediately accepted. When Henrik Ibsen wrote "A Doll's House" with its stunning (for the time) thesis that motherhood and domesticity were not always benevolent feminine traits but just as often prisons that prevented women from individuating as fully separate human beings - his audience wasn't ready to hear that message, and burned the theater to the ground. There were riots.
                                Ibsen was a foremost dramatist, but he was also a forward thinker and philosopher. He was acutely attuned to issues of the day.

                                When we speak of theme in screenplays, we're really speaking about the writer behind the story. Who are you? What are your opinions about the world? What are your most carefully held beliefs about human beings, nature, God, social systems and the way these forces interact with each other? Does your story reflect your perspective on the world? Or does it seek merely "not to offend"?

                                We start with our opinions -

                                ex. "Even in our most intimate moments we are crafting "versions" of ourselves; total honesty is impossible"

                                or "the most idealistic people are often the most dangerous".

                                We take those opinions and imagine a story that magically brings those opinions to life.

                                "Persona" by Ingmar Bergman takes this premise: that total honesty with the other is impossible - and creates a story about a nurse sent to care for an actress who has lost the power of speech. In the stripped down relationship between these women, we will constantly be tempted to think: honesty is possible - these two women will connect somehow - and yet the story continues its inevitable push to prove its controlling idea.

                                No "theme" is truly active in a story unless it is challenged inside the context of the story.

                                "Lawrence of Arabia" spends two hours showing us the unshakable force of will that drives Lawrence to unify the Arabian forces. It also shows us his tremendous idealism and conviction that his ideas about this unification are in service to a higher good. We are tempted in the story to say: "yes, he is right, his ideas are so perceptive and correct that even amoral means would be acceptable in achieving his ends"...and yet the inevitable force of the story ultimately illustrates to us the painful truth that "idealistic people are often the most dangerous" as we see Lawrence's moral collapse.

                                Theme is not some "element" of screenwriting, tossed in as an afterthought like gorgonzola cheese into a salad. Theme is the REASON WE WRITE - the convictions as people that we wish to share with our fellow men. We may explore different themes in different works but the great film artists (Bergman, Woody Allen, Fellini, Lean, Chaplin et al) usually return to the same themes again and again because those ideas are their preoccupations as PEOPLE. How can life have meaning if we know it ends in death? How can there be a loving God in a universe filled with suffering? How do social systems become more powerful than the people that created them?


                                "How can there be a loving God in a universe filled with suffering?" is a philosophical question. It is NOT a thesis.

                                "By definition, there cannot be a loving God in a universe filled with suffering" IS a thesis. It is a statement of belief that chooses one side of a philosophical question. This is what is meant by the hackneyed phrase "making a statement". It's picking sides in a war of ideas.

                                Our controlling idea or thesis emerges from a consideration of our most deeply held beliefs. The idea chooses sides. It is a statement of belief.

                                Story emerges from the "testing" of our thesis against the hard shoals of its antithesis. The strong story flirts with antithesis - "maybe jake can rise above his past and be redeemed by love" quite seriously before reconnecting with thesis "most often, we all live in a "chinatown" of the spirit, a desolate place full of sin and regret, and even the prospect of love cannot get us out."

                                Most often antithesis represents our protagonists HOPES for how the story will turn out, and what that result will allow him to conclude about life in general.

                                Most often thesis represents our protagonists REALITY, the painful place of wisdom reached at the end of the story, where he is "sadder but wiser" as a result of having the controlling idea proven to him by events.

                                In our use of thesis and antithesis, we the writers are the gods, the Fates of our imaginary worlds. We seek to create worlds where our controlling ideas are natural laws to be resisted and ultimately proven by events to the protagonist.

                                The protagonist is the stand-in for our skeptical audience member that doubts our idea - "no, the world is not this way" - and then yields to the wisdom of our idea as the argument is well reasoned, rebuttals to the antithesis are made, and the story stands as proof of our argument.

                                Your thesis - or "theme" if you prefer the weaker word - is your ARGUMENT. The argument your story makes on behalf of a way of seeing the world.

                                Theme, thesis, controlling idea better not be "on the nose" but IN THE BONES of your story - or your story will not compel or move us as you hope it might.

                                The strongest controlling ideas in movie take provocative stances on human morality, theology and philosophy. And controlling ideas transcend genre. Science fiction is often the breeding ground for the most exotic and fully realized themes (2001, not Armageddon).

                                Theme is the reason you write the story. It's what you have noticed about the world that you want to share. It is your cynicism, your hope, your delight, your wariness - distilled to a single observation.

                                Theme is not something you implant into a story, it is something you interpret out of a story so that you can weave it in more effectively. Your themes are lurking quietly in the shadows of everything you have written (unless you have no talent).

                                Go look for them and bring them more fully to the surface.
                                Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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