First 10 (or 1) page

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  • First 10 (or 1) page

    Ladies and Gents - When I first started writing in early 2000's, a common wisdom shared by writers was that if the first 10 pages of your script doesn't hook the reader, you are done. Readers, Agents had patience...

    Over last few years, I feel that the conventional wisdom has shifted. Significantly. With abundance of content now available, it almost feels like if the very first page of your script is not compelling (riveting, engaging, etc.) , you are toast.

    Does anyone else feel this way?

    --fallen

  • #2
    Re: First 10 (or 1) page

    It's entirely possible to lose a reader on page one. If choices made by the writer indicate a lack of skill, the reader may conclude the remaining pages will be more of the same.

    If the logline is intriguing a pro reader may read further but if the same issues are blatantly obvious they're likely to stop and toss the script at any point after page one before reaching page 10.

    Though screenwriting is different from other writing disciplines one truism applies to all: the reader has to believe they're reading the work of a skilled writer who has something intriguing to say.

    In expository writing it's referred to as "the hook." Screenwriters also have to hook readers immediately.
    Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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    • #3
      Re: First 10 (or 1) page

      Agree with sc111.

      I think you have to show voice on page one, and an interesting story by page 10.

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      • #4
        Re: First 10 (or 1) page

        I think it was always this way. Maybe not when you're 8 and in front of the TV, but if you are the people who do this for a living, you're making up your mind ASAP so you can avoid reading 119 other pages of garbage if the first page is bad. It makes sense.

        How long do you give a movie when you start watching on netflix? Do you always keep watching?

        I know when I am given a script by anyone -- I know in 3 pages whether I'm in trouble or not.

        If you are writing a comedy and you didn't even hint at a joke in the first few pages -- I'm out.

        Stephen King and novel writers always talk about the first sentence hook...

        My question is as a writer, don't you want every page to be great? Why would you wait until page 11 to be great? Why not then lose pages 1-10 and make page 11 the first page.

        Also listen to Jeff.

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        • #5
          Re: First 10 (or 1) page

          Originally posted by Bono View Post

          My question is as a writer, don't you want every page to be great? Why would you wait until page 11 to be great? Why not then lose pages 1-10 and make page 11 the first page.

          Also listen to Jeff.
          A good point and question. I have another question -- does the writer have the objectivity to see when our own pages are not even close to great?

          The inability to objectively assess the quality of our own work is a major handicap, on my opinion.
          Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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          • #6
            Re: First 10 (or 1) page

            The things I always end up doing on the first page is either joining something in media res or I'm jumping ahead in my timeline. The latter has been considerably played out (if done poorly, I guess) but it's worked well for me, I'd humbly submit.

            I also tend to do the vast majority of my rhetorical flourishes in the first ten or so pages. That's where I'm bringing in characters and setting tone and mood. I don't forsake it after that, obviously - my voice is still there - but I tend to move a bit more quickly when I'm into the story but the pine trees casting long, rough edged, Rorschachian shadows is an early page thing.

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            • #7
              Re: First 10 (or 1) page

              RE:How long do you give a movie when you start watching on netflix?
              Exactly my point! Personally, I give a Netflix show or a film 2-3 minutes. If there is a star actor, perhaps 7-8. If it comes highly recommended from a friend or a co-worker, 12-15 minutes.

              Over the past years, audiences and their appetite for instant gratification has shifted significantly. With a plethora of great content across various platforms, especially Streaming, audiences expectations have been elevated to a point where, you either hook me instantly (within first 2-3 minutes) or run a risk of losing me.

              I feel that applies to scripts too. Again, this all based on personal observations.

              --fallen

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              • #8
                Re: First 10 (or 1) page

                Originally posted by Satriales View Post
                The things I always end up doing on the first page is either joining something in media res or I'm jumping ahead in my timeline. The latter has been considerably played out (if done poorly, I guess) but it's worked well for me, I'd humbly submit.

                I also tend to do the vast majority of my rhetorical flourishes in the first ten or so pages. That's where I'm bringing in characters and setting tone and mood. I don't forsake it after that, obviously - my voice is still there - but I tend to move a bit more quickly when I'm into the story but the pine trees casting long, rough edged, Rorschachian shadows is an early page thing.
                Yeah -- the jump ahead in timeline is a tool but can -- as you said -- bump a reader if done poorly.

                I've used it once in a period piece/western with a female protag. Since the genre is not "hot" I wanted to hook the reader enough to read on.

                Agree with your second paragraph 100%. I'd only add -- in those opening pages we're also introducing execs to ourselves. As Jeff said, showing our voice, our point of view, in a way that has execs thinking the writer has the goods.

                It's far from easy. Anyone who approaches screenwriting thinking it's easy is fooling themselves.
                Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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                • #9
                  Re: First 10 (or 1) page

                  All writing is hard. Greeting cards, screenplays, term papers, even these days writing out a check.

                  By the way -- the posters here who write the best posts usually happen to also be the best writers.

                  Ex -- Jeff Lowell. He's successful and smart and handsome (job phishing) but most importantly his advice is right and if you notice very concise and not 10,000 words long when 10 would do.

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                  • #10
                    Re: First 10 (or 1) page

                    Originally posted by Bono View Post
                    All writing is hard. Greeting cards, screenplays, term papers, even these days writing out a check.

                    True. Thing is -- the work of highly-skilled writers in all disciplines appears seamless and effortless leading some to think, "That looks easy -- I can do just as good."

                    My earlier comment was in no way indicating other writing disciplines are easier than screenwriting.

                    I get the impression screenwriting is more likely to attract people who would never attempt to publish a novel or book of poetry yet think the screenplay format looks easier to master because there are less words and a whole lot of white space.

                    Or, perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps editors at major publishing houses get just as many cold queries as Hollywood deciders get.
                    Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: First 10 (or 1) page

                      Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                      I get the impression screenwriting is more likely to attract people who would never attempt to publish a novel or book of poetry yet think the screenplay format looks easier to master because there are less words and a whole lot of white space.
                      My take on this, regardless of what films they gravitate toward, is that people like movies, lots of those people believe they have a good story to tell, and each of them believes they can tell that screen story in two hours’ time (they think, “shorter than a book, right?”). They arrive at these conclusions which then allows them to induce themselves to believe screenwriting must be easy to do.

                      A screenplay demands a paucity of words, which is more difficult to write well than the comparatively wide-open prairies of pages of dense text allowed by a novella or novel.
                      Last edited by Clint Hill; 05-26-2020, 05:52 PM.
                      “Nothing is what rocks dream about” ― Aristotle

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                      • #12
                        Re: First 10 (or 1) page

                        All I know is I can think of 100 people who have ask me to write a script with them or had an idea for movie -- and could not wait to tell me about it or think we should work together.

                        And I'm always like sure -- what time should I show up at the courtroom to do your job? Do I get to do surgery, doctor too?

                        There are few professions that when you tell people what you do they don't just say "cool" they want to join you and think it's not at all insulting to suggest such a thing.

                        My own brother did this to me. He's a trader. He does not think I can easily do his job.

                        It's just one of those things. And yes I do not think people meet Stephen King and say, "I have a great idea for a book" but they do have a great idea for a sequel to the movies based on his books.
                        Last edited by Done Deal Pro; 05-26-2020, 05:43 PM. Reason: Grammar/spelling

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                        • #13
                          Re: First 10 (or 1) page

                          Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                          I have another question -- does the writer have the objectivity to see when our own pages are not even close to great?

                          The inability to objectively assess the quality of our own work is a major handicap, on my opinion.
                          The Dunning-Kruger effect.

                          My advice used to be that if an amateur writer isn't getting some kind of real external validation (wins/finalists in meaningful contests, offers of representation), then have a plan B.

                          Now my advice is have a plan B.

                          Actually, my advice is if someone would be happy doing anything but screenwriting, they should do it, because it's a rough field.

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                          • #14
                            Re: First 10 (or 1) page

                            Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                            The Dunning-Kruger effect.

                            My advice used to be that if an amateur writer isn't getting some kind of real external validation (wins/finalists in meaningful contests, offers of representation), then have a plan B.

                            Now my advice is have a plan B.

                            Actually, my advice is if someone would be happy doing anything but screenwriting, they should do it, because it's a rough field.
                            Thanks for the link. Yes. That's it exactly.

                            As for Plan B, I believe it's true for all of the creative fields/arts. Because competition is brutal for the few spots available.
                            Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: First 10 (or 1) page

                              Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                              A good point and question. I have another question -- does the writer have the objectivity to see when our own pages are not even close to great?

                              The inability to objectively assess the quality of our own work is a major handicap, on my opinion.
                              I think that the objectivity can come in the form of a delayed acceptance. It's like the stages of death, right? Not nearly as bad, so maybe a poor comparison, but that's what comes to mind. Stages.

                              You're hit with the note, some are more direct, less concise, or even blunt. Its delivery doesn't matter, that's not the point, and even though blunt can sting a bit... what does matter, is the careful consideration of the note. Because the person who you trust to give you notes is doing so to HELP YOU. Don't take that for granted, and don't take it lightly.

                              You have to step back and CAREFULLY consider the note.

                              Read that again, because it's really important. (this for the noobs like me, not the writers that already know better )

                              I don't give up. Not easily and not ever. I'm a pit bull with an old sock. And because of that, I am able to (sometimes e-ven-tu-ally) address that note to the point that I KNOW, really KNOW that my story is better because a writer I trust was honest with their opinion.

                              Notes give us the opportunity to step up to the plate and swing for the fence. It makes us incrementally better, which makes it easier to spot the next time, until it eventually becomes ingrained and habitual.

                              You may fight a note. But the important ones stick to you. They are the ones you KNOW are right. If even on a subconscious level. Maybe it's not articulated well, but you definitely realize something is amiss.

                              I'm not talking about the ones you discard because you know they're not right for your story. But, rather the ones that stop you... those are the ones to take a long hard look at.

                              I don't know what I'd do without the amazing writers that give me notes. Every one makes me a better writer. Every one helps me realize my vision.

                              There's nothing like the moment when you say, "**** it," okay I'll show you and it turns out that THEY showed you... that's rewarding. That's progress. That's writer's growth.

                              Okay, so I worked out, didn't eat and had a glass of wine. Not sure that makes sense. haha. I'm mean, what I wrote, not what I did.

                              With all that gibberish said, my advice to those who truly want to excel at their craft... swallow your pride, grow thick skin, allow time for the sting to wear off, consider the note objectively, and then execute that note like a fukking beast!

                              Stay safe,
                              FA4
                              "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

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