My Black List Experience

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  • #16
    Re: My Black List Experience

    Originally posted by madworld View Post
    Phoenix, I don't think this is the script that's going to get you there. I'd hate to see you waste more money or time, 18 months is it? It's time to crack a new one. You have to keep in mind that your scripts are evaluated the same way as everybody with that service. It's impossible for readers to catch everything, and even when you say it's 3 pages, it could be 3 pages of muddy stuff, when one line of clarity would have serviced you better.

    Look it's tough. Brutally tough. It just is, even for produced/optioned/sold writers. They have to start new stuff all the time. I wish more people knew that. Most of the time people will say no. Trust me, the pressure you have when you get a rep eclipses anything before you get one. No one knows that until they're in it. Everyone thinking "well that ain't me" - it is. When the ball drops you will have to resurrect yourself again and again. [Being Phoenixman you should be able to do it.] But navigating the professional world takes a lot of skill, compromise, resourcefulness and perspective. Navigating the Blacklist is just a peek into this.

    Readers will miss things. This is fact. In an ideal world, they wouldn't have the volume they have but they do. The volume affects them and it always will.

    I wish you the best but I'm of the belief that it's time to start fresh. I hope I'm wrong but if you are getting 3's and 4's on the next evals, move on. We've ALL had to do it. Even the pros. You don't hear that often but every emperor in town has been naked and running for the locker room at one time or another.
    Thanks for the advice bud. I have written two other scripts in the meantime and I'm working on three more for 2015. I've got a fulltime job, 3 kids and a wife with a chronic illness who I'm pretty much a carer for so I don't get a lot of time to work on my writing. Maybe 1 or 2 hours a night if I'm lucky.

    I do appreciate all the opinions and advice on here but I think it'll be a wait and see what happens. I'll let you all know even if the news isn't good for me.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: My Black List Experience

      Originally posted by Phoenixman78 View Post
      I know where you're coming from but wouldn't the Black List argue with me if the writing was the problem here? Don't they check these things so they don't constantly hand out free reads to people?
      I believe their policy is to take down the review when there is a factual error. They do not engage in the subjective discussion of the script. The reader got something wrong, it's done. The reader didn't, they don't.

      That's a totally understandable policy about where to draw the line, as it avoids a lot of subjective back-and-forth. They don't want to waste time arguing with you. They don't want to be in the position of getting into arguments. Their policy largely avoids that.


      At no point did either reader state the "writing" was an issue. I pointed out the issues, one of which as I said earlier was something that was three pages long that the reader missed. How do you miss three pages? You don't read them at all is how.
      There's a forest/trees issue here. That is to say, you are both right and wrong.

      I'm saying this based on my experience of getting coverage leaked to me (this was CAA coverage of a script that got me my first job) which was full of factual errors of the sort you describe. Very clear things, early in the script, the reviewer just seemed to have missed.

      And I'm also saying this based on my experience as a reader. Not for the black list, but for both contests and production companies.

      And that is this:

      Every reader misses things on occasion, but readers tend to miss things when the script is not engaging them. The more it's not working, the more readers are going to skim.

      That is to say: the reader was 100% wrong for not reading closely enough to avoid factual errors. But I would bet a large sum of money that the reader was not reading closely because he had already decided that your script sucks.

      I'm sure there are exceptions to that, but they are rare, assuming even a basic level of competence on the part of the reader. (And if he lacks that competence, I'm sure he won't be reading for them for long).

      As a reader with a lot of scripts under my belt, I can accurately estimate what kind of score i'll give a script within five pages I'd say probably 70% of the time. Most of the times when I miss it's because the script gets worse after a strong opening - the writer doesn't know how to handle a second act, a plot that falls apart, weird structural choices, etc. A script that looked like a "3" early almost never ends up earning a "5+" once I've finished it. (The opposite happens much more often, the "oh, wow, this is a possible winner ... ug, the wheels really fell off that!")

      Now, when I'm reading, I take my job seriously. Production companies are paying me largely, to determine if its for them or not, but a contest or service like the black list is paying me to make sure that first impression is right, they're paying me to read the whole damn thing. So if I think it's a "3" after 10 pages, I keep reading. ("3" is in quotes because I haven't read for the black list, and every contest uses different scoring systems).

      And that's the hardest part of the job. "Oh, god, this script sucks. But I really have to read it." It's very hard not to skim. It's something that every reader, if they're being honest, will admit that they struggle with.

      In some way, it's understandable: I mean, at the end of the day, who really cares if I score this script (on a scale of 1-100) a 35, 45, or 55. There's no functional difference between a BL 3 and a BL 5. (Heck, there's not much functional difference between a BL 3 and a BL 7, if you think about it). So a reader has to constantly battle that urge to just call it a 4 and move on.

      In this case, the BL reader lost that battle. And, worse for both of you, he lost it in a way that made it obvious that he lost it.

      But the bigger the things that a reader misses (and particularly if readers are CONSISTENTLY missing things) the more that's a message: your script up to the thing that they missed is not working for them.

      Now, they could be wrong. Every reader gets stuff wrong on occasion and you should never put your sense of your worth as a writer into the hands of somebody who is getting paid $25 a script. And bad reads are a part of life as a writer in Hollywood. Not everybody likes everything.

      But if you are consistently having people miss big stuff, I'd strongly encourage you to look for ways that you might be turning them off. How are you making them want to skim, rather than read closely?

      As a fellow writer, I share your pain. I've been there. But ultimately, the responsibility is on us: we must make it as difficult as possible for a reader to skim a single word.

      Good luck with the new evals.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: My Black List Experience

        Originally posted by Ronaldinho View Post
        I believe their policy is to take down the review when there is a factual error. They do not engage in the subjective discussion of the script. The reader got something wrong, it's done. The reader didn't, they don't.

        That's a totally understandable policy about where to draw the line, as it avoids a lot of subjective back-and-forth. They don't want to waste time arguing with you. They don't want to be in the position of getting into arguments. Their policy largely avoids that.




        There's a forest/trees issue here. That is to say, you are both right and wrong.

        I'm saying this based on my experience of getting coverage leaked to me (this was CAA coverage of a script that got me my first job) which was full of factual errors of the sort you describe. Very clear things, early in the script, the reviewer just seemed to have missed.

        And I'm also saying this based on my experience as a reader. Not for the black list, but for both contests and production companies.

        And that is this:

        Every reader misses things on occasion, but readers tend to miss things when the script is not engaging them. The more it's not working, the more readers are going to skim.

        That is to say: the reader was 100% wrong for not reading closely enough to avoid factual errors. But I would bet a large sum of money that the reader was not reading closely because he had already decided that your script sucks.

        I'm sure there are exceptions to that, but they are rare, assuming even a basic level of competence on the part of the reader. (And if he lacks that competence, I'm sure he won't be reading for them for long).

        As a reader with a lot of scripts under my belt, I can accurately estimate what kind of score i'll give a script within five pages I'd say probably 70% of the time. Most of the times when I miss it's because the script gets worse after a strong opening - the writer doesn't know how to handle a second act, a plot that falls apart, weird structural choices, etc. A script that looked like a "3" early almost never ends up earning a "5+" once I've finished it. (The opposite happens much more often, the "oh, wow, this is a possible winner ... ug, the wheels really fell off that!")

        Now, when I'm reading, I take my job seriously. Production companies are paying me largely, to determine if its for them or not, but a contest or service like the black list is paying me to make sure that first impression is right, they're paying me to read the whole damn thing. So if I think it's a "3" after 10 pages, I keep reading. ("3" is in quotes because I haven't read for the black list, and every contest uses different scoring systems).

        And that's the hardest part of the job. "Oh, god, this script sucks. But I really have to read it." It's very hard not to skim. It's something that every reader, if they're being honest, will admit that they struggle with.

        In some way, it's understandable: I mean, at the end of the day, who really cares if I score this script (on a scale of 1-100) a 35, 45, or 55. There's no functional difference between a BL 3 and a BL 5. (Heck, there's not much functional difference between a BL 3 and a BL 7, if you think about it). So a reader has to constantly battle that urge to just call it a 4 and move on.

        In this case, the BL reader lost that battle. And, worse for both of you, he lost it in a way that made it obvious that he lost it.

        But the bigger the things that a reader misses (and particularly if readers are CONSISTENTLY missing things) the more that's a message: your script up to the thing that they missed is not working for them.

        Now, they could be wrong. Every reader gets stuff wrong on occasion and you should never put your sense of your worth as a writer into the hands of somebody who is getting paid $25 a script. And bad reads are a part of life as a writer in Hollywood. Not everybody likes everything.

        But if you are consistently having people miss big stuff, I'd strongly encourage you to look for ways that you might be turning them off. How are you making them want to skim, rather than read closely?

        As a fellow writer, I share your pain. I've been there. But ultimately, the responsibility is on us: we must make it as difficult as possible for a reader to skim a single word.

        Good luck with the new evals.
        I can understand where you're coming from. I do. I read other peoples work and at the moment I'm reading a script where the dialogue is so bad it's hard to push through it but I promised someone so I'm reading it.

        Some of what you're saying sounds like "What do you expect when a readers paid $25?" and I've heard that argument about the Black List that for $25 you shouldn't expect much but on the other hand people get represented through it, scripts are sold etc.

        I'm not going to argue with them unless I get an 8+ because I'm not an idiot but when I get feedback I want the criticism to be based on what's in the script. We can go round in circles all day banging on about whether or not I've written it well enough for the reader to not skim it but that won't get anyone anywhere.

        I'm not bashing the Black List here. They've been very helpful so far and obviously lots of people use them. I'll wait for the new evaluations and no matter the outcome I'm laying this script to rest in terms of re-writes etc. It's a done dinner because I'm happy with it in it's current form and I think every writer has to be happy with their stories.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: My Black List Experience

          Originally posted by Phoenixman78 View Post
          I'm happy with it in it's current form and I think every writer has to be happy with their stories.
          I've never been happy with one of mine yet.
          If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base.
          Dave Barry

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: My Black List Experience

            Originally posted by Centurio View Post
            I've never been happy with one of mine yet.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: My Black List Experience

              Originally posted by Phoenixman78 View Post
              Some of what you're saying sounds like "What do you expect when a readers paid $25?" and I've heard that argument about the Black List that for $25 you shouldn't expect much but on the other hand people get represented through it, scripts are sold etc.
              Only kind of. I think it's really human nature. The job of reading a bad script closely is really really hard. I'm not sure there's an amount of money that can make anyone do it perfectly.

              That being said, I think you missed the most important point, which is this:

              You should approach every read as if a failed read is your fault.

              Ever see Almost Famous? There's this great scene where the band gets in a fight, and the singer says something like, "It's my job to get everybody off. If I see somebody who is not getting off, it's my job to get him off."

              Well, that's you. It's your job to get the reader off. If you were imagining a theater full of people watching the film, and there's one guy who is bored and checking his phone, you don't want to be saying, "What an a-hole" (which he is, by the way) but rather, "Why did I lose that guy? Why isn't he loving this film?"

              Getting everybody in every theater to love the film is impossible, of course. The thing you need to do to win this dude over here will lose you that gal over there. So sometimes you end up saying, "Yeah, I know why that guy isn't getting off, and I can live with that," or "that gal will never get off on the film I'm trying to make." And that's okay.

              When talking about feedback, one thing that gets repeated a lot is that the note doesn't matter at all. The reaction, however, matters a tremendous amount. e.g., if you laugh your ass off the whole script, everywhere i want you to laugh, I really don't care if you then say, "Well, gee the character arc was a little flat." On the other hand, if you don't laugh, I don't care how much you tell me you think I'm a genius.

              In your case, the guy has given you a useless note, because he clearly didn't read the script very closely. However, as I just said, the note doesn't matter at all. The reaction matters.

              And the guy's reaction (that he tuned out) is useful, if unpleasant.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: My Black List Experience

                Well got the first re-evaluation back...........7. Not the magical 8 but damn close.

                The weaknesses mentioned were fair and definitely reflected this guy/gal read the script. Pretty much put it down to fuzziness when it came to the exact reason behind the villains motives for attacking the victims.

                Premise, Character and Setting were 7's and Plot and Dialogue were 6's. Dialogue I'm bummed about because I really worked friggin' hard at the dialogue.

                So I don't completely suck, so far, but I'm not there yet.....so far. I'll let you guys know what the second re-evaluation comes back as, good or bad.

                It's 1.07am here in Australia so Happy New Year!!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: My Black List Experience

                  Originally posted by Phoenixman78 View Post
                  Well got the first re-evaluation back...........7. Not the magical 8 but damn close.

                  The weaknesses mentioned were fair and definitely reflected this guy/gal read the script. Pretty much put it down to fuzziness when it came to the exact reason behind the villains motives for attacking the victims.

                  Premise, Character and Setting were 7's and Plot and Dialogue were 6's. Dialogue I'm bummed about because I really worked friggin' hard at the dialogue.

                  So I don't completely suck, so far, but I'm not there yet.....so far. I'll let you guys know what the second re-evaluation comes back as, good or bad.

                  It's 1.07am here in Australia so Happy New Year!!
                  Fantastic New Year story!

                  Good luck on the second read!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: My Black List Experience

                    Originally posted by Ronaldinho View Post
                    There's a forest/trees issue here. That is to say, you are both right and wrong.

                    I'm saying this based on my experience of getting coverage leaked to me (this was CAA coverage of a script that got me my first job) which was full of factual errors of the sort you describe. Very clear things, early in the script, the reviewer just seemed to have missed.

                    And I'm also saying this based on my experience as a reader. Not for the black list, but for both contests and production companies.

                    And that is this:

                    Every reader misses things on occasion, but readers tend to miss things when the script is not engaging them. The more it's not working, the more readers are going to skim.

                    That is to say: the reader was 100% wrong for not reading closely enough to avoid factual errors. But I would bet a large sum of money that the reader was not reading closely because he had already decided that your script sucks.

                    I'm sure there are exceptions to that, but they are rare, assuming even a basic level of competence on the part of the reader. (And if he lacks that competence, I'm sure he won't be reading for them for long).

                    As a reader with a lot of scripts under my belt, I can accurately estimate what kind of score i'll give a script within five pages I'd say probably 70% of the time. Most of the times when I miss it's because the script gets worse after a strong opening - the writer doesn't know how to handle a second act, a plot that falls apart, weird structural choices, etc. A script that looked like a "3" early almost never ends up earning a "5+" once I've finished it. (The opposite happens much more often, the "oh, wow, this is a possible winner ... ug, the wheels really fell off that!")

                    Now, when I'm reading, I take my job seriously. Production companies are paying me largely, to determine if its for them or not, but a contest or service like the black list is paying me to make sure that first impression is right, they're paying me to read the whole damn thing. So if I think it's a "3" after 10 pages, I keep reading. ("3" is in quotes because I haven't read for the black list, and every contest uses different scoring systems).

                    And that's the hardest part of the job. "Oh, god, this script sucks. But I really have to read it." It's very hard not to skim. It's something that every reader, if they're being honest, will admit that they struggle with.

                    In some way, it's understandable: I mean, at the end of the day, who really cares if I score this script (on a scale of 1-100) a 35, 45, or 55. There's no functional difference between a BL 3 and a BL 5. (Heck, there's not much functional difference between a BL 3 and a BL 7, if you think about it). So a reader has to constantly battle that urge to just call it a 4 and move on.

                    In this case, the BL reader lost that battle. And, worse for both of you, he lost it in a way that made it obvious that he lost it.

                    But the bigger the things that a reader misses (and particularly if readers are CONSISTENTLY missing things) the more that's a message: your script up to the thing that they missed is not working for them.

                    Now, they could be wrong. Every reader gets stuff wrong on occasion and you should never put your sense of your worth as a writer into the hands of somebody who is getting paid $25 a script. And bad reads are a part of life as a writer in Hollywood. Not everybody likes everything.

                    But if you are consistently having people miss big stuff, I'd strongly encourage you to look for ways that you might be turning them off. How are you making them want to skim, rather than read closely?

                    As a fellow writer, I share your pain. I've been there. But ultimately, the responsibility is on us: we must make it as difficult as possible for a reader to skim a single word.

                    Good luck with the new evals.

                    This is a great post. It is a mistake to get hung up on dfactual inaccuracies eyond the level of, "Hey, they aren't talking about MY script!" It's hard and it's painful, but if the script isn't getting 9 and 10 and people loving it, then it's just not good enough.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: My Black List Experience

                      Originally posted by Geoff Alexander View Post
                      This is a great post. It is a mistake to get hung up on dfactual inaccuracies eyond the level of, "Hey, they aren't talking about MY script!" It's hard and it's painful, but if the script isn't getting 9 and 10 and people loving it, then it's just not good enough.
                      When I pay money for people to read my script, whether they find it boring or uncomfortable to read or the most amazing piece of literature they've ever laid eyes upon, I'm paying for a service. Can you imagine how many people would pay the Black List or any other coverage/notes/evaluation service if they advertised this attitude?

                      "For a fee we'll provide you notes on how to better improve your script but be warned, if we don't happen to like the story or the writing is bad, we'll skim over most of it and you can kiss our a$$."

                      My point is that I want the service being advertised that I paid for, an accurate review of my work good or bad. If someone is paid money for a job, do it. Plain and simple. I get that it's different if you're working for someone as a filter so they don't have to read through all the crap for the one slither of gold but these are paid services and I need to know what level my work is at and I need to know ACCURATELY if it's a 3, 5, 8, 10 whatever so I know where to go from here.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: My Black List Experience

                        Originally posted by Ronaldinho View Post
                        As a reader with a lot of scripts under my belt, I can accurately estimate what kind of score i'll give a script within five pages I'd say probably 70% of the time.
                        I'd like to know how EXACTLY you make this determination. Is it too much description? Bad character intros? Bad dialogue?

                        I'm guessing you've hated pro scripts before, so it can't be just typical amateur mistakes.
                        I'm never wrong. Reality is just stubborn.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: My Black List Experience

                          How many times have you read a book and known it was bad in the first few pages? You may still read on to page fifty hoping it will get better, but you know it sucks. You don't have to finish it to know that.

                          The truth is you don't have to read more than a few pages of a script to know whether it's any good and if it's not a readers are going to skim it -- that's your fault, not theirs.

                          They will read the first five or ten and then skim looking for the information they need to give you an evaluation. The truth is they don't have to read every word to do that well. Once they know the writer's not up to snuff and isn't writing to professional standards it's just a matter of checking the hot spots. Does the script miss or deliver at the act breaks. Does the tension increase the further we go -- etc, etc.

                          Now you can scream loudly till the end of days that it's not fair they didn't read ever word -- but they don't have too. They can give you exactly what you paid for without it.

                          You want them to read every word? Learn to write well enough that they want too. As Geoff said (and he's someone you should listen too) there's no difference between a 3 and a 7 anyway. It's just not good enough. So they missed a plot point because your writing wasn't clear or you bored them -- even if they'd figured it out you would still be in exactly the same position -- not good enough.

                          So forget it. You learned what you needed and got your moneys worth. If Write your next one and the one after that. Get better.
                          If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base.
                          Dave Barry

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: My Black List Experience

                            Originally posted by Centurio View Post

                            Now you can scream loudly till the end of days that it's not fair they didn't read ever word -- but they don't have too. They can give you exactly what you paid for without it.
                            Dude, no offence, but that makes no sense. If someone is paid to read your script they are paid to read the damn script.

                            Originally posted by Centurio View Post

                            So they missed a plot point because your writing wasn't clear or you bored them -- even if they'd figured it out you would still be in exactly the same position --
                            Clarity is one thing, I get that, but if they're bored by the script? Once again, they're paid money to do it! It's their job.

                            Also just because the Black List sends out emails for 8's doesn't mean there's no difference between a 3 and a 7. You might as well just narrow it down to a no or a yes because there must be no difference between an 8 and a 10.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: My Black List Experience

                              Originally posted by Phoenixman78 View Post
                              Dude, no offence, but that makes no sense. If someone is paid to read your script they are paid to read the damn script.



                              Clarity is one thing, I get that, but if they're bored by the script? Once again, they're paid money to do it! It's their job.

                              Also just because the Black List sends out emails for 8's doesn't mean there's no difference between a 3 and a 7. You might as well just narrow it down to a no or a yes because there must be no difference between an 8 and a 10.
                              That's not their job actually. They're paid to give you an evaluation. If that can be done effectively without reading every single word then that's what's required. I haven't looked at their small print, but I'm pretty certain it only discusses their evaluations. Again an evaluation of an obviously amateur script can be done without a complete reading. I'm sure you did it at times when you were reading scripts on Zoetrope.

                              I'd be curious what you think the difference is between a 3 and a 7 in the real world. Will a 3 garner interest from a production company? Very unlikely. Will a seven? Almost equally unlikely. That's why Geoff said it didn't matter. On a professional level there is no difference. The reason the BL chose to give a range is to give writers a scale to let them know how they stand against other scripts they receive (mostly amateur.) Are you getting better? Is your next draft better? Are you on the right track? Important for you personally perhaps, but immaterial when it comes to shopping and selling a script. That's not to say no bad scripts ever get sold. Someone's got to win the lottery.
                              If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base.
                              Dave Barry

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: My Black List Experience

                                Originally posted by Centurio View Post
                                I'd be curious what you think the difference is between a 3 and a 7 in the real world. Will a 3 garner interest from a production company? Very unlikely. Will a seven? Almost equally unlikely. That's why Geoff said it didn't matter. On a professional level there is no difference.
                                Script's that get an 8 also get rejected by production companies en masse. 95% of eights on the BL lead to nothing (that we know of). Laurie got a 9 (1/500 chance) and just got a face full of "Meh's" from the industry members who downloaded the script.
                                I'm never wrong. Reality is just stubborn.

                                Comment

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