Should we all be writing books instead?

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  • Should we all be writing books instead?

    I've been doing this screenwriting thing for maybe 20 years? Holy sh%t imagine all the things I could have done in that time. Obviously it's not a full 9 to 5, 20 years type of job and I had real jobs and kids during it and a life -- but still this is my career.

    I mean adults now and they tell me about their jobs, their lives, their careers, their raises, vacation time and real life job stuff. And I feel lost as I sort of love and hate the office job. Being a writer for a person that loves to talk to people is a weird profession to choose sometimes. But of course I do like to be alone.

    What was my point of this thread?

    Oh yeah, all that time, effort and writing that no one will see. Made a little money off of it, but basically it's just a failed hobby at this point. Even if I don't laugh at calling myself a screenwriter -- wouldn't the time be better spent maybe on trying to take some of my ideas and write YA Novels? Or Kids books? I know all writing is hard, but there's just so many more books published and the writing is the thing -- you think at least if I put 20 years into writing YA Novels and had the same talent -- i'd have more success by now.

    I've seen screenwriters like chad kultgen who went to USC film school, but he wrote novels as his way to break into the industry. and that seemed smart to me years ago.

    Just asking as I think about how much time and effort it takes. And it's so disappointing that unlike others whose time and effort is rewarding with money or something actually being published. Or a piece of art on a wall. Or a piece of music I can hear at a local club played by them...

    Screenwriting is so specific. And so narrow. It's depressing. I love film. I love TV. But I always would love to make money and more importantly have people actually read and hear my words.

    What's the point of wasting 40 years doing this and not making it? Maybe I should spend the next 20 years focused on something else...

  • #2
    Re: Should we all be writing books instead?

    Haha I've considered this, too.

    I've toiled away for over a decade and have passed all the significant milestones except for the most important one, i.e. getting paid enough to make a living.

    Vis-à-vis fiction writing, I'd say one doesn't preclude the other.

    I'm nibbling at a non-fiction/literary fiction thing (don't know what it is yet) while still writing screenplays and teleplays.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Should we all be writing books instead?

      Originally posted by Bono View Post
      I've been doing this screenwriting thing for maybe 20 years? Holy sh%t imagine all the things I could have done in that time. Obviously it's not a full 9 to 5, 20 years type of job and I had real jobs and kids during it and a life -- but still this is my career.

      I mean adults now and they tell me about their jobs, their lives, their careers, their raises, vacation time and real life job stuff. And I feel lost as I sort of love and hate the office job. Being a writer for a person that loves to talk to people is a weird profession to choose sometimes. But of course I do like to be alone.

      What was my point of this thread?

      Oh yeah, all that time, effort and writing that no one will see. Made a little money off of it, but basically it's just a failed hobby at this point. Even if I don't laugh at calling myself a screenwriter -- wouldn't the time be better spent maybe on trying to take some of my ideas and write YA Novels? Or Kids books? I know all writing is hard, but there's just so many more books published and the writing is the thing -- you think at least if I put 20 years into writing YA Novels and had the same talent -- i'd have more success by now.

      I've seen screenwriters like chad kultgen who went to USC film school, but he wrote novels as his way to break into the industry. and that seemed smart to me years ago.

      Just asking as I think about how much time and effort it takes. And it's so disappointing that unlike others whose time and effort is rewarding with money or something actually being published. Or a piece of art on a wall. Or a piece of music I can hear at a local club played by them...

      Screenwriting is so specific. And so narrow. It's depressing. I love film. I love TV. But I always would love to make money and more importantly have people actually read and hear my words.

      What's the point of wasting 40 years doing this and not making it? Maybe I should spend the next 20 years focused on something else...

      Swear to god. This is exactly where I'm at. So far 2 passes from folks. Seriously? My sh!t is pretty fukkin good, why im getting passes. I'm about to go into real estate. It's something REAL to sell vs air. I bet I could be a multimillionaire in that world. Why am I wasting my time "writing- for idiots? I was already offered a job by an interior designer. I turned it down "Nah, bro, I'm a writer.-

      Real ****: I have a meeting set up for one of the top real estate agencies in the biz. I can sell sh!t. I've proven that. I dig rad real estate. High end. If I can make a half mil a year doing that, I'm out! GUNS BLAZING! Meaning I'll tell all and be kicked out of Hollywood permanently. Fukk it!

      These fake-ass people passing on me. Tells me A LOT! This town is racist as fukk.

      Honesty. There it is.

      I appreciate your honesty. Maybe we should write something together. Ha!
      Bruh, fukkin *smooches*! Feel me? Ha!

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Should we all be writing books instead?

        I agree one does not preclude the other. You're a writer, I don't think it matters much what the medium is, you're probably going to feel the urge to write something, so what's wrong with a novel? But don't expect getting published is any sort of easy road, and self-publishing is its own animal with a whole other set of $%&* to deal with, just a lot cheaper than self-producing your screenplay.

        In addition to my dozens of unproduced features, pilots, short scripts, and web series, I have an unpublished full length play and two unpublished novels that I sometimes like to consider burning and throwing off a cliff for all the success they've brought me.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Should we all be writing books instead?

          Originally posted by GucciGhostXXX View Post
          ...I'm out! GUNS BLAZING! Meaning I'll tell all and be kicked out of Hollywood permanently...
          Permanently is a long time, but it is happening all the time. We all know reps and even producers who've left the biz.

          Recently, I tried to get 'specific' regarding a proposal with one of my LinkeIn connections, a smart guy (an MBA) with credits and took one of my scripts way, way back in 2010 when he was a creative at Parkes-Macdonald:

          Anson Avellar

          Parkes-Macdonald?! I thought, sheesh, if I can get one of my early crap scripts read by those big shots, this is gonna be eeeezzzeee!

          Anyway, jumping forward nearly a decade, he replied on LinkedIn that he's no longer in the biz.

          As for how long you should go before you decide to change tack, I'm on the other end of the scale. I was 52 and had accomplished (or maintained) absolutely nothing in my life that I was particularly proud of, despite following all the rules and trying to play every 'regular' game (relationships, buying a house, holding down a job, etc.)

          And then one night after watching my favorite movie for about the 7th time, I went down and started to scribble something that became my first script. The process was so invigorating that, all these years later, an in spite of my disappointment at my earlier stages of life, I see that if my first 50-60 years were just a sad warm-up, the next 20 could be really something.

          In that great sports metaphor, they say the fastest person (maybe hardest working, too) on the field is the one that just made a mistake (or maybe made a poor choice).

          I hope you can find another angle on utilizing what you've got, or what you've done, so that your next 20 are more fulfilling.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Should we all be writing books instead?

            This is a great post - very honest.

            I'll give my POV:

            I know more than a few ex-screenwriters who now write fiction, some with a modicum of success (ie, kind of making a living off it), and yes, I actually do think it's easier to break into screenwriting via novel writing because it's much easier (not easy, but easiER) to get a novel published than it is to get a screenplay made. You can then try to build an audience for your novel and then maybe one day a producer will read it, love it, and ask you (or someone else) to write the screenplay for it. And if not, at least some people will actually read your novel.

            That said, I also see what you mean about the frustration of being at it for so long with no recognition or real monetary reward. Producers, actors, and directors face the same thing but for them I think it's far worse because they have to truly go "all-in" because it's pretty much impossible to hold down a regular job while auditioning for roles or making a movie that then doesn't get picked up for distribution and nobody sees.

            I'm not sure what you do for a living, but from my POV, I've made a good living as a writer my entire life but of course very little of that money has come from screenwriting (I have two options that keep getting renewed and keep paying me, but it's not like they are huge amounts); it's come mostly from newspaper journalism and now writing marketing content for tech companies (for which there is a HUGE demand). The (kind of weird) thing is: I enjoy that writing, the tech writing, as much as I enjoy screenwriting, if not more. It's certainly easier to come up with something that feels "complete" and also has some semblance of what you set out for it to become, and also... per your point, it actually PAYS and people will actually READ IT and may even learn from it and find some use from it. So in that sense, while of course I would love to have had more success as a screenwriter, and I still write screenplays and send them out, I also feel pretty lucky to have done what I love to do my entire life and make a good living off it and support my family with it.

            I guess what I'm saying is: there are many types of writing, if you're a writer who enjoys writing and you're good at it, you shouldn't be too hard on yourself by requiring screenwriting to be the type of writing that pays the bills. I think there's a big ego thing around that and also a romantic and psychic reward thing - you really want people to see you as a screenwriter and to think you are living a glamorous life. But in the end, if you like to write, and you're writing and making a living off your writing, who cares what kind of writing it is? The point is to write every day and enjoy it. You can't live your life by committee. Let others think what they will. Write. Enjoy it. Keep sending stuff out. Who cares about the rest...

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Should we all be writing books instead?

              Articles on the topic of writing for oneself versus writing for one’s audience:

              Should You Write for Yourself or for the Reader?

              Don’t Write For Others; Write For Yourself

              Write for yourself; it’s okay

              Writing For Myself

              How To Write For Yourself First (And Still Get Paid)

              Writers’ opinions on this topic seem to be all over the map. Remain calm and write on.
              “Nothing is what rocks dream about” ― Aristotle

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Should we all be writing books instead?

                Originally posted by grumpywriter View Post
                This is a great post - very honest.

                I'll give my POV:

                I know more than a few ex-screenwriters who now write fiction, some with a modicum of success (ie, kind of making a living off it), and yes, I actually do think it's easier to break into screenwriting via novel writing because it's much easier (not easy, but easiER) to get a novel published than it is to get a screenplay made. You can then try to build an audience for your novel and then maybe one day a producer will read it, love it, and ask you (or someone else) to write the screenplay for it. And if not, at least some people will actually read your novel.

                That said, I also see what you mean about the frustration of being at it for so long with no recognition or real monetary reward. Producers, actors, and directors face the same thing but for them I think it's far worse because they have to truly go "all-in" because it's pretty much impossible to hold down a regular job while auditioning for roles or making a movie that then doesn't get picked up for distribution and nobody sees.

                I'm not sure what you do for a living, but from my POV, I've made a good living as a writer my entire life but of course very little of that money has come from screenwriting (I have two options that keep getting renewed and keep paying me, but it's not like they are huge amounts); it's come mostly from newspaper journalism and now writing marketing content for tech companies (for which there is a HUGE demand). The (kind of weird) thing is: I enjoy that writing, the tech writing, as much as I enjoy screenwriting, if not more. It's certainly easier to come up with something that feels "complete" and also has some semblance of what you set out for it to become, and also... per your point, it actually PAYS and people will actually READ IT and may even learn from it and find some use from it. So in that sense, while of course I would love to have had more success as a screenwriter, and I still write screenplays and send them out, I also feel pretty lucky to have done what I love to do my entire life and make a good living off it and support my family with it.

                I guess what I'm saying is: there are many types of writing, if you're a writer who enjoys writing and you're good at it, you shouldn't be too hard on yourself by requiring screenwriting to be the type of writing that pays the bills. I think there's a big ego thing around that and also a romantic and psychic reward thing - you really want people to see you as a screenwriter and to think you are living a glamorous life. But in the end, if you like to write, and you're writing and making a living off your writing, who cares what kind of writing it is? The point is to write every day and enjoy it. You can't live your life by committee. Let others think what they will. Write. Enjoy it. Keep sending stuff out. Who cares about the rest...
                I'm a stay at home dad right now to 2 small kids, but they are getting older and I have to find a job again. My past jobs were low level jobs in post production world of NYC, where they did commercials which was cool, but I didn't want to do the technical stuff.

                Yes, I would be very happy if I could find a career writing in any medium. I think I'd be a great copywriter -- but that's very hard. I've tried to find those freelance writing gigs and land something you're talking about for years, I just never seem to find them. Or they pay zero. My father in law makes his living writing for tech magazines, which is so weird. He's making money from writing and I'm not and he's a nerd. An engineer. He writes, but he's really there for his expertise on the subject not his great writing ability. You know?

                My ex writing partner got some writing job for blogs and writing reviews for food/music... so he's somewhat happy.

                So a lot of this is my own fault. I'm just being practical. At this point I just want to feel normal and like a man.

                My life has been a big serious of ups and way downs... If I told you it all, you'll probably all cry. So that's why I stick to the jokes. And also I know others have had it worse. But maybe not on this board. Still of course every day the news shows me more pain than I could stand.

                Yes, I've always been in search of a way to use my talent to make money. I don't want to be the funny guy who works at Target. I like shopping at Target and making jokes with employees, but I don't really want to be the funniest guy at work at 45 and that's the only thing I have to express myself.

                I guess I always hoped I'd succeed at some point. But I guess failure is what this life has in store for me.

                Now I remember writing a more hopeful post to someone else, about how I wouldn't trade success in screenwriting for my family -- and of course that's true. But I still dream to have both. Is that to much to ask? I guess so.

                Isnt' this career so much fun?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Should we all be writing books instead?

                  Hah... it is indeed

                  The thing is - there are PLENTY of miserable screenwriters, miserable actors, directors, and producers. There are also plenty of miserable tech writers, bloggers, lawyers, doctors, etc... And there are plenty of happy ones. I'm guessing in a forum like this the following comment will be seen as pretty absurd, but happiness truly has nothing to do with your external situation or circumstances (and now, cue replies like, "Tell that to a mother of three standing in line to buy a piece of rotting meat for in Venezuela.") As long as you are believing in a rule like, "XYZ has to happen for me to be happy", you will never be happy.

                  But anyway... this is now probably veering into digression.

                  Keep writing, my friend. Just don't keep doing yourself the injustice of investing your happiness in the outcome of that writing.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Should we all be writing books instead?

                    This is a discussion worth having.

                    I'm not interested in writing episodic material (what we used to call TV, but is now on multiple platforms). I like feature films as do many posters here at DDP.

                    Maybe my things aren't as good as others. I can deal with that. What I haven't come to terms with yet is the change in the marketplace. Original features are still getting some options and purchases, but it really appears that fewer and fewer are getting made for the theater-going audience. I do not have data to support such a claim, but that is what I see from my vantage point.

                    I don't really miss the actual Weinsteins, but the production company was one of the makers of original films and that is missed. I want to write an interesting 1920s true story this winter, but in reality who will actually put it on film for $20m? (assuming my part of the product is any good).

                    The old guard is disappearing. Paramount is mostly just Tom Cruise these days. Sony...not much there anymore. Disney/Fox is franchise, sequel and re-boot work. WB does their usual couple of big budget items, couple of horror and a Clint Eastwood pic every year.

                    Universal has their share of franchises, but I do give them credit for making some original material every year. These represent the vast majority of what is going into actual theaters these days. I look at the top twenty grossing releases this year so far (or pic your number) and there is darn, darn little even going into theaters that would come from someone like myself.

                    Sure, there are other outlets for material (Netflix, Amazon, etc) ...but the budgets on most of those films doesn't really allow too many of us to make much money.

                    At the end of the day, it's not that the people in HW do or don't like my writing (or the writing of any of us). It's that there has to be a fair chance for those writing the checks to make money on average by putting out films that put people in theater seats.

                    I've got a pretty good concept for a RomCom, but I just lose interest in putting my soul into that work when I know the likelihood of selling it for any meaningful amount is very slim. I've got a historical drama I am looking at which would probably cost $20m to make and with the nature of it might garner an Oscar nod for cinematography if filmed smartly at the necessary location, but the audience is probably slim and thus so are my chances with that idea.

                    The industry is always evolving and there is always the caveat for us to write "better scripts" or "more commercial material." I'm just not interested in trying to get hired for "Deadpool vs. Jigsaw, Part IV" or "Fast and Furiouser 18." Any of us here could probably do a decent job with those, but what are the odds of getting that assignment?


                    R.O.T.
                    Last edited by RogerOThornhill; 07-28-2019, 05:14 PM. Reason: grammar

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                    • #11
                      Re: Should we all be writing books instead?

                      Courtesy of The Black List, "Why We Write.-
                      “Nothing is what rocks dream about” ― Aristotle

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Should we all be writing books instead?

                        Originally posted by Procrastinator View Post
                        Haha I've considered this, too.

                        I've toiled away for over a decade and have passed all the significant milestones except for the most important one, i.e. getting paid enough to make a living.

                        Vis-à-vis fiction writing, I'd say one doesn't preclude the other.

                        I'm nibbling at a non-fiction/literary fiction thing (don't know what it is yet) while still writing screenplays and teleplays.
                        dude, i so love your avatar.

                        bono, and Procrastinator... i'm with you.

                        i'm planning on adapting one of my specs to a novel. actually, i plan on writing a book proposal (i'm good at this rejections ****) and see what comes.

                        it can't be any more difficult. humiliating. or depressing.

                        i'm still working my way through all the Masterclasses and what i will say is that they're really inspiring. especially the authors-- they have this wonderful humility when they speak to their audience. i love it.
                        "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Should we all be writing books instead?

                          My answer is simple.

                          Write a novel and see what happens. That is the only way that you will ever know.

                          First, see if you can write one. Second, if you succeed in the first step, take a look at the manuscript and decide whether it is any good. Third, submit the manuscript to a publisher.

                          Start work now and try to have step one complete (at least a good first draft) at the end of eight months. That means by March 31, 2020.

                          A hint: Do not wait till around Christmas to start work.

                          Another hint, for anyone doing this: Do not go into the project with that old screenwriter's attitude that "grammar, style, spelling, and punctuation do not matter."

                          "The fact that you have seen professionals write poorly is no reason for you to imitate them." - ComicBent.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Should we all be writing books instead?

                            What everybody's talking about here is a spark, to get things going.

                            So here's another approach: We could hire somebody to write the novel from our screenplays. Be generous about it, and don't nitpick. You need them more than the other way around, and they know that. Get a lawyer, so everybody knows their responsibilities and rights. Get it done. Maybe six months. Then get out there and build that pre-existing fan base, such that the already-adapted-into-a-screenplay that you've written is part of the whole marketing package!

                            And such novelists are out there. They write adaptations of anything into fiction or non-fiction, just like we write adaptations of anything into screenplays.

                            By the way, this discussion has been had before, if not about novels. I personally started a thread about getting a script made into a graphic novel or comic book, then relaunching the quest for moviedom from there. I may still do that with 1-2 of my more graphical scripts, and I've thought about hiring novelists for the others, but I have other immediate (and more traditional) plans for my screenplays so it's not a priority.

                            But if I were really looking to make a change, maybe I'd do it now.

                            Anyway, it's just that there's so much to learn about writing a novel, that to launch into that related-but-different writing mode would almost be like going back to square one.

                            I say, "teamwork" instead!

                            Like I often say: Wouldn't you rather be a 1% owner of a million dollar property or production, than a 100% owner of one that's $10,000? Both are $10K in your pocket, but clearly the smaller proportion of the bigger property likely has more legs to grow, whereas the smaller one is probably destined for little more than the YouTube dustbin, if we're talking about film/video.

                            If you still don't get what I mean, the OP said it: He (and most of us) like to work alone, but that's just the writing part. The business behind writing, to exploit the hell out of it, is best a team affair.

                            In a Bill Gates bio I read, he said (paraphrasing here) his greatest joy was working with a lot of smart people to get amazing things done. It's why, except for the occasional suggestion of a camera shot here or there, I am looking forward to leaving directing to a great director, acting to super actors, camera work to great etc., etc. etc.

                            On the other hand, I'm also looking forward to helping to secure financing, distribution, etc. etc. merely by using my contacts from, for me, over a decade of virtual knocks on peoples' doors. So, a writer/producer I will be.

                            Teamwork is how you get films, and almost anything, done. Maybe that's the spark needed to perk up those writers among us who're feeling a bit down these days, especially when it seems like it's little ole us looking up at $250 million budget Marvel and DC movie universes. (Remember that even those are typically being credited to 5-8 writers; talk about team work!)
                            Last edited by catcon; 07-28-2019, 09:02 PM. Reason: oops, right idea, but math was wrong

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                            • #15
                              Re: Should we all be writing books instead?

                              Originally posted by TigerFang View Post
                              Courtesy of The Black List, "Why We Write.-
                              i have to tell you, my daughter made a trailer for my film.. she was too young to read it, but i've always felt that even if i never make a film my daughter will have my scripts. watch it, it'll make you smile.

                              https://www.dropbox.com/s/4at2q7ivos...ailer.mov?dl=0

                              my kid is awesome. this makes me smile, and laugh every time.

                              your kids will do this for you, too, bono. it's amazing.

                              she made me several plaques... #1 writer is my favorite.

                              i think we must write because we love to write.

                              it's terribly depressing to receive so much rejection. one day you have a fan and the next you receive a rejection that was clearly "copied and pasted" from two separate sources and all you want to email back is, "next time, don't respond at all."

                              but you can't do that. you express your gratitude, which is real, and you thank them for their time and stifle that feeling that you know they don't believe you're equal to them in their eyes-- i hate that most of all.

                              i used to tell people, "if you don't speak to (insert owners name) then don't speak to me that way. i treat you with respect. i expect the same in return.

                              i recently listened to a podcast where a manager actually admitted that when he received bad queries, he sent them around to his friends and made fun of them-- writers who spend hours upon hours on their craft. i don't need anyone that badly in my camp. it was so disappointing.

                              bono, it's tough. no doubt. surround yourself with people who believe in your dreams as much as you do. don't shy away from talking about the reality of this profession, but also don't let it sink your spirits. all it takes is one person to believe in you, and sometimes that takes a lot of time to find them.

                              when you do, it'll be worth it.
                              "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

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