Questions to ponder about why you're doing this...

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  • Questions to ponder about why you're doing this...

    I've been perusing some of the various screenwriting message boards recently (well, really, just Done Deal and Wordplay) and have noticed something that, to me, is alarming. Well, let me back up a bit...

    This trend has been around since I started visiting Done Deal and probably long before that (so, really, it doesn't fit the strict definition of "trend") and has always perplexed me, but for some reason it's just now driven me to start a thread about it...

    I'm talking about people asking anonymous posters on an internet message board, people they don't know at all, for what amounts to "creative permission". Certified Instigator's response in another thread (about the structure of a ghost story) perfectly sums up what I'm talking about (kudos, CI).

    Why on earth would you place BIG creative decisions about your spec script -- everything from story and theme issues to whether or not you should write it at all (jesus, what's THAT all about?!) -- in the hands of strangers who may or may not know what they're talking about and are most definitely not paying you a cent for your work?

    Why would you ask questions like, "Must my protagonist be likeable?"?

    How many movies have you seen? You've never seen a film with an unlikeable protagnist? Why would you ask that? You know the answer is "No, he/she doesn't have to be" if you've watched enough movies (or, hell, even if you haven't).

    Or, perhaps, you're asking if your protagonist has to be likeable (just as one example) in a spec script you're trying to use to break into the business. Okay, fair enough. (I still think the answer is "No, he/she doesn't" btw, but I don't want to get into a whole thing about that.) But that brings up another question; perhaps THE question from which all of these others come from, and which is the true subject of this thread:

    Why are you writing screenplays to begin with? Where is the impetus to do so coming from?

    Is it coming from a deep, abiding, often painful love of film? Is it coming from a desire to "actualize" the movies you've been playing in your own head for months and years on end? To see your vision up on the silver screen?

    Is it coming from a place of economic concern? Is it an ego thing? A "canoodling women" thing? A spiritual exercise?

    Is screenwriting a hobby? A vocation? An obsession? Catharsis/therapy?

    If you found out (for example) that you, as an aspiring screenwriter, absolutely could not sell a spec script with an unlikeable protagonist to a major studio, what would you do? Would you write another script... one with a likeable protagonist (perhaps hoping that if you sold that, you would be "in" and then could sell your personal project)? Would you rewrite your script so that it had a likeable protagonist, thus altering your entire creative vision?

    Or, would you get out there and try to make the thing yourself?

    Again, why are you doing this? What do you get out of it? What do you hope to get out of it?

  • #2
    Btw, when I talk about asking message board members for creative permission, I'm not talking about spitballing with and bouncing ideas off of other writers whom you know and whose opinions you respect (in, say, a writer's group), and who are generally supportive of your creative vision.

    I'm talking about asking strangers what you should write because they supposedly "know better" than you.

    Just wanted to clarify. That is all.

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    • #3
      Okay, I'll bite . . .

      I find my current job unrewarding (I teach way too many English classes at a community college). If I stay at this job, I will move incrementally forward for the next eighteen years. The only way to really move up on the food chain would be to go into administration, which I have no talent for whatever, or go to another college, which will be the same old same old in a new setting.

      I like movies, and I love to write. I write anyway; it keeps me sane. The lure of the sold screenplay calls to me like a tall glass of lemonade to a Death Valley prospector; so if I'm going to be writing anyway, why write for nothing? Why write only for myself? What on earth should keep me from giving the screenwriting career endeavor my best attempt?

      Screenplays are easy to write. Good screenplays, on the other hand, are extremely difficult to write. But so what? I've discovered that life is a lot of work anyway. If I let myself slide into decrepitude wondering if, maybe, if I had worked a little harder, used my noodle a little more, I might have gotten paid to write movies, I will never forgive myself.


      Now, about this protagonist thing. I can't think of a single successful movie (i.e. a movie I liked) where I genuinely disliked the protagonist. I can think of movies where the protagonist was a rogue and a scoundrel, who behaved in indefensible ways, but all of them had something on which to hang my sympathy, something which made me care what happened and want to see them succeed, something that made me cheer when they did or feel their pain when they didn't. If a protagonist has no admirable character traits, if he doesn't have some kind of integrity or some kind of redeeming quality, then I can't see how a movie about that protagonist can possibly succeed.

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      • #4
        So then, you would never ask the question, "Should my protagonist be likeable?". That's what I'm getting at.

        Someone who loves and wants to write films like Happiness, In The Company Of Men, Raging Bull, The Minus Man (though, I think he WAS likeable in a sick, odd sort of way), Funny Games, Man Bites Dog, American Psycho, etc. asking that question is what strikes me as so odd.


        Good response, btw. I dig your honesty.

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        • #5
          Haven't seen all of the films in your example, but I have seen Raging Bull, and it's a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

          Maybe it is not difficult to distinguish Jake La Motta from St. Francis of Assissi, but he did have several admirable qualities, qualities that made the audience like and care about him.

          For example, he was incredibly tough. Even when Sugar Ray Robinson was beating him to a bloody pulp (close-up slow-mo: boxing glove in face, head flying sideways, stream of blood sailing away), he refused to lie down. He couldn't win, but he refused to take the easy way out of the fight. Others: The way he struggled with his own inner demons. The pain he felt at his wife's infidelity. All of that made audiences say, "You show 'em, Jake! You don't take a dive for nobody!" Okay, so he didn't have too much upstairs, and he made a few bad decisions, but how could you not sympathize with him most of the time and admire him part of the time? I thought he was enormously sympathetic.

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          • #6
            hmmmmmmmmm

            I would hazard a guess that 90% of the "creative" questions posted here about likeable characters, happy endings, voiceovers, and other matters of form and syntax are not posed so that a prospective writer could become better at the craft, but to get a quick big money spec sale.

            Don't get me wrong, money is a great motivator, no one would go to work without it, but the amounts that are earned, combined with the seeming ease of market entry (to the uninitiated) cause this.

            I just had a producer tell me that my protagonist was unlikable, (i prefer to call him an anti-hero, but what do I know?) but rather than change my character, I'll change producers.

            There is a value to posting on a message board, even though you can't guage the credibility of the other posters.

            Common sense and wisdom are self-evident in the good replies, and even the bad ones have a value if they cause me to look at something in a differnt way, or generate an idea I might never have had.

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            • #7
              Nice topic- I have been thinking about a similar observation, which I hope will add to your discussion. There are numerous posts on this board and others asking about story, characters, rules, formatting, etc. from people that want to learn. What I donâ€TMt understand is why people ask questions like your example: "Should my protagonist be likeable?â€

              The creative process is yours to own- you can create whatever environment, for whatever characters, and do whatever you want to them. It's your creation- if you want your protag to be 9ft tall, have pink hair, and walk around on his/her hands then do it. There are no boundaries for your story- it can be 5 pages long- it may be 300 pages long it is completely up to you.

              Now I'm not advocating that stories written outside certain parameters will sell but the time I have spent visiting this website has taught me what I think is most important- write whatever story you want, just make sure it is correctly formatted and written VERY VERY well.

              Just my 2 cents

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              • #8
                I think one of the reasons that questions are asked of strangers...is to validate us as writers. Even if our ideas suck, there are people on the boards(other writers) who will praise and argue with our position. So even if what they say is contrary to our own beliefs...it allows us to feel like a creative exchange is occuring.

                Validation doesn't mean that someone thinks you are a GOOD writer...it just means they think of you as a writer. Not sure if I explained this correctly...my brain is muddled in quicksand this morning.

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                • #9
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                  • #10
                    Did you even read my post? Where was I "complaining"?

                    I'm trying to get people to think about what they're asking and why they're asking it.

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                    • #11
                      I post pages and logs on DD because it helps. Sure, some of the feedback is so-so, while other comments and suggestions are worth their weight in gold (yet it's free).

                      And I enjoy reading other tyro writers' pages because it helps me see different styles, voices, approach to stories, etc.

                      Questions such as the 'likeable protag' query aren't the kind I ask because I suspect, given group dynamics, half will respond 'yes,' the other half, 'no.'

                      As for your other question, I've fallen in love with the screenwriting craft and as a result, given up novel writing.

                      Is money a factor? Yes and no. I know the first time I was paid for a piece of writing it felt incredible. But, since I write for a living, the thrill has worn off. Sure, anyone would love to make 6-plus figures on their story but that isn't my primary goal.

                      I love to write. It's something I do. Overall, it's taking daydreaming to the next level and getting it down on paper. I've always been a daydreamer.

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                      • #12
                        Also, I did specify that I was talking about the BIG creative questions and people basically asking permission to write what they want to write. (Or the weird twist where they seem to want to be told that they shouldn't write what they want to write.)

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                        • #13
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                          • #14
                            the quest for validation runs through the bloodstream of human nature, and manifests in different ways in different endeavors. in no other vocation, however, must one be as keenly aware of consensus while at the same time mentally and morally prepared to reject it, as in the arts.

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                            • #15
                              I guess because...

                              Why would you ask questions like, "Must my protagonist be likeable?"?
                              I suppose for the same reason you asked:
                              Again, why are you doing this? What do you get out of it? What do you hope to get out of it?
                              Validation, baby.

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