Blacklist Experience #1239932

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  • #61
    Re: Blacklist Experience #1239932

    I skimmed and read most of the posts in this thread. (I did not realize that Done Deal Pro was still here until recently.)

    I want to make one laudatory comment, which I think is well-deserved. Throughout this never-ending controversy, one of the strongest voices of wisdom has been that of Cyfress. I think that he has offered some remarkable insights on the whole subject of screenwriting. A perfect example is his statement that a screenplay remains unsold simply because it is not good enough. Its failure does not have anything to do with the fact that the writer lives in Illinois, or wherever.

    The level of frustration that I find here is very high. People have unreasonable expectations. When you cut through all the jibber-jabbering excuses and complaints, the underlying message is: I paid my money, now give me my screenwriting success.

    I think it might be good if people would share more of their work here on the board - as used to be the case! - instead of trying for the big score on the Black List. People here could offer some help by telling you that something is working or not, and why. I have seen that done here in the past. Maybe it is worth thinking about.

    "The fact that you have seen professionals write poorly is no reason for you to imitate them." - ComicBent.

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    • #62
      Re: Blacklist Experience #1239932

      there are lots of reasons a script or other work may not sell over a particular period of time. one of them is of course, it may not be very good or good enough, etc.

      and i have not picked up on frustration here that is linked to unreasonable expectations and a sense of entitlement.

      it seems to me that the folks here know this whole writing thing is a steep hill to climb while toting something heavy on your back. and you have to learn more as you keep plodding along. and you fall down now and then, even roll down to the bottom and have to start again.

      i'm loafing here now and gabbing to put off working on a story that seems so far above my pay grade. easy to talk about good writing. sure is hard to do it.

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      • #63
        Re: Blacklist Experience #1239932

        Looking back at what I did, and observing here over the last 15 years, young screenwriters all do the same thing, with exception of that special talent, that is the top 1% of the writing population. Eventually, you will hit a wall on a script. That wall will be tall and slippery to climb, you for sure will start to get frustrated and eventually move on to another script. You'll work on script #2 only to find that you hit a wall there to, now it feels right to you to just move on to script #3 and maybe revisit #1 and #2 if and when time allows. And unless you are insane you will soon realize the wall is not specific to one script. The wall is specific to you. It's the black belt test of screenwriting. Can you scale the story wall that always pops up at one point in every story? Most do not gather any experience nor gain any knowledge in this task for a long time because they are trying to go around it by starting a new script.

        Your best move is to concentrate on one script. Work on it. Bang your head against that wall and return to write pages time and time again. Figure out what it feels like emotionally and what it looks like physically on the page to scale that wall. Working on one script for two years will accelerate your growth as a writer exponentially than writing four half scripts in two years.

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        • #64
          Re: Blacklist Experience #1239932

          agree about writing a story and not then just moving on to another one, at least for me. i only have so many good stories to try to tell. can't just pick stories off a tree like cherries, etc. at least i can't. i kind of get married to my stories. and they are rocky marriages. but we keep plugging away at it.
          Last edited by AnconRanger; 07-02-2017, 08:22 PM.

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          • #65
            Re: Blacklist Experience #1239932

            This thread has degenerated into a TBL bashing/defending contest again, as usual. I've got some thoughts, first regarding Ryan's script, and second, regarding TBL in general.

            1.1
            For Ryan's script, I believe Setting referred to by the reader is the physical settings in your script. If the score is low, likely the reader didn't find the settings interesting or unique. Like EXT - FOREST, EXT - WATERFALL will bore some one real quick.

            Think of ways you can improve on that, and I mean really WOW the reader. Recall Avatar's Home Tree and the Hallelujah mountains: Since your forest is set in a mystical, fantasy world, let your imagination run wild. How about a waterfall that flows from bottom to top? Stuff like that.

            1.2
            Fleshing out Eleanor's character will help a lot too, as mentioned by the readers. If we don't know or care about Eleanor, why would we care about Jackie's desperate quest to get back to her? (Which is only what your story's about)

            2.1
            Moving on to the TBL discussion, it would serve you better to ignore the reader's positive comments. Only look at 2 things: Their negative comments and your score. That's really all that matters. (The reader's positive comments are often exaggerated, I think almost everybody will agree with me on that.)

            2.2
            I think the main gripe I have with TBL is the cost. I know they upped their fees a year or two ago and I think it's not worthwhile to use them, especially during contest season. Would much rather use the money to enter Nicholl, Austin, PAGE, and the few major competitions.

            2.2
            It's true that becoming a paid writer is extremely difficult if you're not working/connected to the industry. Therefore, majority of us should just treat it as a professional hobby, and keep your day job/find other avenues of income to make ends meet. Continue writing and improving yourself; budget a bit of cash to enter competitions/get feedback (Within your means).

            Don't expect overnight results. It will take years, usually decade(s), before you reach the top of your game. And of course, don't just rely on 1 script; I believe you should produce at least 3 solid scripts. And who knows? If you are good enough, doors might open for you.

            Just my 2 cents.

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            • #66
              Re: Blacklist Experience #1239932

              Why does the BL have such backlash when other contests, say the Nicholl, don't?

              You send in a script and get scored a 5 by one reader and a 7 by another. But the 7 has really positive comments, and the 5 reader doesn't look like he did anything but skim; his details of the script are questionable. What do you do? Who do you believe? What can you change as fast as you can before your hosting runs out? The clock is ticking! Should you pay for another read, more hosting? You can't lose this momentum! Of course, that's another huge chunk of money and it starts feeling like a cash grab...

              Or hey, you're on a top list! You got two downloads! You don't know who they are, but who cares? Maybe they are somebody! Maybe a producer or an agent!! But your hosting is about to run out! Quick, you've got to pay for another month of hosting! You can't let this opportunity slip by! But then too much time has passed, you'll be off the top lists unless you pay for another read too! So then you pay for another read, then more hosting, and it starts feeling like a cash grab...

              Or hey, you got the coveted 8! Yes! You even got 4 downloads! Your logline is great. The script is in a hot genre. This may be the one! But then it peters out. No more downloads. Why? Were the other downloads just other writers? Were they simply checking out your script because they're working on something similar? You don't know, because you're not allowed to know who is downloading your own effing script. But hey, maybe if you just put something else up there, that will be the one, and it starts to feel like a cash grab...

              Imo, it is this feeling of a cash grab/desperation/never knowing who's reading your script/vague comments you can't discern that causes BL's backlash. These leave writers feeling icky about the BL in a way that they do not feel about other contests.

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              • #67
                Re: Blacklist Experience #1239932

                The blacklist allows you to bait a hook with your script and cast it in Hollywood waters. That's what you are paying for. The problem is unlike pro sports, there are no scouts you must impress first. You are the judge if your material is ready. Most people feel it is worth it to host the script to see if they get any nibbles.

                I wouldn't consider the BL feedback worth much. It over praises and under criticizes. It gives you generalities like 'improve the setting' 'add conflict'. Most people can't do anything with those notes.

                Don't pay attention to the scoring either. Either you developed a relationship with a manager, agent, or producer or you didn't. Wearing a 9 as a badge of honor but not getting any nibbles probably means your script is no 9.

                A real 8 or 9 script would get at least a manager interested in possibly working with the writer. Would a manager really read a 9/10 script and say the writer isn't worth a conversation? I doubt it.

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                • #68
                  Re: Blacklist Experience #1239932

                  Originally posted by figment View Post
                  Why does the BL have such backlash when other contests, say the Nicholl, don't?
                  I remember a lot of Nicholl bashing (undeserved, IMHO) over the course of the years on DDpro...
                  In the end, it's no "one thing" that's going to create that first sale for most writers. It's a varying collection of reads, events, and people that all come together at one fortunate moment. And usually, you have no real idea when that moment is going to present itself.

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                  • #69
                    Re: Blacklist Experience #1239932

                    Originally posted by ComicBent View Post
                    I skimmed and read most of the posts in this thread. (I did not realize that Done Deal Pro was still here until recently.)

                    I want to make one laudatory comment, which I think is well-deserved. Throughout this never-ending controversy, one of the strongest voices of wisdom has been that of Cyfress. I think that he has offered some remarkable insights on the whole subject of screenwriting. A perfect example is his statement that a screenplay remains unsold simply because it is not good enough. Its failure does not have anything to do with the fact that the writer lives in Illinois, or wherever.

                    The level of frustration that I find here is very high. People have unreasonable expectations. When you cut through all the jibber-jabbering excuses and complaints, the underlying message is: I paid my money, now give me my screenwriting success.

                    I think it might be good if people would share more of their work here on the board - as used to be the case! - instead of trying for the big score on the Black List. People here could offer some help by telling you that something is working or not, and why. I have seen that done here in the past. Maybe it is worth thinking about.
                    I think someone who lives in Peoria, Illinois is less likely to know people who can give good feedback on scripts or related aspects of the industry. A person in LA could get a day job in the industry, and that helps enormously.

                    I've met a number of writers who have MFA's in drama, film, or writing. Clearly some people have better educations that help them in the industry as well.

                    Not all writers have equal chances. These days most artists, even most actors have some sort of arts education (not always formal degrees, but in many cases they do).
                    Check out my videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/NyFilmmaker32/videos

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                    • #70
                      Re: Blacklist Experience #1239932

                      Originally posted by NYNEX View Post
                      I think someone who lives in Peoria, Illinois is less likely to know people who can give good feedback on scripts or related aspects of the industry. A person in LA could get a day job in the industry, and that helps enormously.

                      I've met a number of writers who have MFA's in drama, film, or writing. Clearly some people have better educations that help them in the industry as well.

                      Not all writers have equal chances. These days most artists, even most actors have some sort of arts education (not always formal degrees, but in many cases they do).
                      I really wish that someone else would respond to this. I am tired of beating my head against this particular wall.

                      Yes, NYNEX, education helps. Yes, it helps if you "know people" - and that is going to happen a lot more often if you are living in LA and working in some kind of industry job.

                      But you still have to be able to write. It does no good to have contacts and an MFA in film, if you still cannot write.

                      I have been reading scripts by wannabe writers for about seventeen years. I have read a few (probably fewer than a dozen) that had salvageable material. Those few scripts needed extensive reworking in one or more ways. They needed more conflict; they needed a real second act instead of what amounted to a "stub"; they needed to create their starting "universe" better; they needed some backstory; they needed to make us care more about the implied or stated goals that the characters pursue; they needed more dialogue (not silly chitchat) that moved the story along or told us important things about the characters. And, finally, they almost invariably needed some polish.

                      Bottom line: You have to write a screenplay that people will enjoy reading.

                      "The fact that you have seen professionals write poorly is no reason for you to imitate them." - ComicBent.

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                      • #71
                        Re: Blacklist Experience #1239932

                        Originally posted by Cyfress View Post
                        Your best move is to concentrate on one script. Work on it. Bang your head against that wall and return to write pages time and time again. Figure out what it feels like emotionally and what it looks like physically on the page to scale that wall. Working on one script for two years will accelerate your growth as a writer exponentially than writing four half scripts in two years.
                        I agree that half finished screenplays do no one any good.

                        But I disagree that spending years on a script is helpful, for a couple of reasons.

                        1. Spec sales are probably the smallest part of feature writers' income. Most jobs are writing/adapting someone else's idea or re-writing. And you don't have two years (or a year or even six months) to do a draft. You need to be able to execute in weeks or months at most.

                        2. One of the most important parts of a spec script (whether selling it or just getting enough attention from it to get a job) is the idea. If you spend two years on an idea, and that idea doesn't resonate, you've wasted two years. Or, god forbid, someone beats you to the idea and now it's dead.

                        I used to be in writers groups with writers who would do what you're advocating - spend years tweaking and re-writing the same spec. I can't think of one of them who went on to have a career. I'm sure it's happened, but I'm pretty sure it's not common.

                        I think the goal should be putting out two specs a year minimum when you're trying to break in. Which is really doable... If you spend three months coming up with an idea and breaking the story (which is really generous), and then write a page a day, that's six months per spec.

                        Those four scripts will make you a better writer, and you'll have three extra shots.

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                        • #72
                          Re: Blacklist Experience #1239932

                          jeff knows his business. i don't. i have never sold a script.

                          that sounds like excellent advice hammering out a couple of scripts a year, etc. getting the discipline down, the focus, etc to produce.

                          i primarily try to write novels, so i'm like a turtle, i guess. my stuff starts as an idea, the idea bangs around in the great cavern of my brain, and then one day i'm at the computer, pull up a blank page and start typing. stuff literally starts flying out. being i type with three fingers, i just try to keep up. think i have a short story. but some keep growing. at those moments i will sometimes type 30 or more pages a day, day after day. those pages are pretty ugly.

                          but it may take years before that moment of zoned-in typing occurs, multiple false starts, etc, but all along, i know there is a damn story there. and i have to work and woo to get it out, but i have to be patient as well at times. she'll stand me up. slam the door in my face. throw the flowers i brought her into the rainy night.

                          the story i am working on now i began thinking about years ago. began actually seriously working on it a couple years ago. i wrote another novel which is now getting some attention while i let the one i'm working on now simmer, but what i like is i am not slaving over one story for months or years, i have a lot of pots on the stove at the same time. what needs stirring, i stir. what needs more seasoning, i season, etc. what is ready to be made from scratch, i get going making it. and what i think tastes good and is ready for the table, i yell, 'supper's ready.' and every now and then somebody likes my cooking besides me.
                          Last edited by AnconRanger; 07-04-2017, 04:51 PM.

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                          • #73
                            Re: Blacklist Experience #1239932

                            Shift key, Ranger. Shift key.

                            "The fact that you have seen professionals write poorly is no reason for you to imitate them." - ComicBent.

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                            • #74
                              Re: Blacklist Experience #1239932

                              Originally posted by ComicBent View Post
                              Shift key, Ranger. Shift key.
                              DITTO! Hahaha...

                              I have a couple of friends that don't capitalize when they email me and it drives me crazy! I don't understand why it drives me so crazy.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: Blacklist Experience #1239932

                                Off topic certainly, but I began writing like that after I'd had a little luck publishing stories. My grammar and spelling, tense useage (see what i mean?) isn't so great anyway, but I tried hard to learn and get it right.

                                But, i began noticing in notes from old pards, old river rat buddies, etc, that they would sort of apologize for their writing (got in a hurry, sorry for...) in their notes. good grief. like they were apologizing for not taking their boots off when they walked into my hunting cabin. my thinking...the pine floor and dead bugs and crud on it can stand it. my boots are muddy, too.

                                anyway, their notes read fine. i understood exactly what they were saying, so i began responding back more like this.

                                and, I HAVE ONE FRIEND WHO WRITES LIKE THIS. ALWAYS. LIKE THIS ABOUT EVERYTHING. SO I WRITE BACK TO HIM LIKE THIS. he is a nice fellow, just a bit loud.

                                i am no genius like dickens or poe or kipling, et awl, and shouldnt be treated as such. i am a struggling writer. i have no real formal education, except i've listened to the greatest stories in the world by the best storytellers on front porches nestled in old misty hills and i have a really great public education in my pocket from a public school system in va which doesn't stand out much, because there are lots of great public school systems in va.

                                got a college to let me in after i left the army (Go Hokies! was never a ranger, btw) and now my buds just write, 'telll me what's going on,etc.' and i write back in a common language we both understand...may not be prettty but we both understand what the hell the other person is saying. It is not a groundbreaking way to break the rules or even a useful one for most, etc, it just works for me. good ol' communication. Or, GOOD OL' COMMUNICATION, depending who i am speaking to. a little grammar goof and misppeling can help with communication sometimes, and with some people who are actually a lot smarter than you or i may be.

                                Sigh...but i'll work on it and the overuse of ellipses and all the rest. i'd hoped this day would never come...my gosh, there are one or two people on this board who would prefer i try to write like a real writer. alas. how did this happen. and i hate that friggin word, alas...
                                Last edited by AnconRanger; 07-07-2017, 04:59 PM.

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