Can I do anything with a high placement in a screenwriting competition?

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  • #31
    Re: Can I do anything with a high placement in a screenwriting competition?

    Originally posted by Friday View Post
    Shia doesn't really need contests or the blacklist. He already has connections from being in major Hollywood movies. He probably submitted these to give credibility to him as a writer, and not just rest on his acting laurels.

    Not sure how Blacklist works. Can't I just get a review first and try to keep it private and if it gets an 8, then let it be public? I also don't think writers should be able to download...just managers/producers/agents. And what are the real costs of using it to get attention? A contest has a flat fee...you know exactly how much. With the hosting and turnaround time, I'm confused how much you actually expend. I know contest winners get a lot of attention...I wonder how closely managers look at the 8's.

    As far as contests goes, it's good to distinguish which contests you need to be a winner or finalist versus which one you only need to be a semi-finalist. It's fairly easy to reach the semi-finals...but harder to be the absolute winner of the contest. Also, at which round, reps contact you instead of you having to query.
    Nope. That's not how it works. You pay $30 to host your script. It will show up as a blip in the "newest" scripts added because they get so many.

    The evaluation can take three weeks. Your script gets no traffic until and unless you get two reviews that average above the community ave which is 6.1 right now. You have to have two.

    An industry person can download and read your script but their rating is WEIGHTED. Not sure why, because it seems that an industry person's point of view would hold more validity than the Black List readers, for sure. I mean, if they're an executive or assistant, right?

    You can opt to make your review public or private. If your ave is still above the community ave you will show up on the top lists for the (if you have 2) for the month and quarter, but you need 4 to get on the annual top list which is the second, third, and fourth quarter and once you age out of ONE year, your script DISAPPEARS again, unless you pay to get two more evaluations and then another two more to get onto the top list for the rest of the year.

    The deal with the 8s... if you get an 8 on any of your elements your script's logline gets sent out in the weekly email. If your evals come in in two separate weeks and you get an 8 on each evaluation, your script gets sent out twice.

    If the indy pro does read the list that week, he will never know you're on the top list until, and unless, they go onto the site and look at the top lists.

    You can restrict writers from downloading your script. You cannot restrict your script to ONLY producers/manager/agents. You have to allow all indy pros access. They can be assistants, prop managers, costume designers, hair people, any one that qualifies as an industry professional in their eyes.

    And no, you do not get transparency to know what position the indy pro is. That's the part that burns.

    Managers absolutely look at 8s. They cannot see the scores of the scripts on the top list. They have to select the script then, if the writer allows it, they can read reviews and see the scale of ratings.

    I only have high scoring evaluations visible. And yes, it's expensive, but the return is faster. With a contest you have to wait 8-9 months to get an answer, while the Black List response is faster, a couple of weeks. You can rewrite it and submit again.

    The downloads come from being on the top list, have your script be "reader recommended," and be a feature script. I have all three of those for Tracker, but when I initially hosted it I got a ton of downloads. Then I got a manager pretty quickly and every time any one looked at it they didn't know I was already repped until after they viewed it.

    Then a year and a half later my manager stopped managing and is only producing, so my script was no longer on the top lists and I had no exposure. I keep it up because people do see it on the "featured script" page. But I totally lost all that momentum with the 8s & 9s. The only way I can get back on the top lists is to pay for more evaluations and I have two scripts I'm going out with about a month apart.

    I don't think contests have the same ability to attract attention. For 9 months while scripts are being read and judged on a given contest, there are industry people who need material during that lag time. This is a valid place for them to search for new voices.
    "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

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    • #32
      Re: Can I do anything with a high placement in a screenwriting competition?

      Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
      Nope. That's not how it works. You pay $30 to host your script. It will show up as a blip in the "newest" scripts added because they get so many.

      The evaluation can take three weeks. Your script gets no traffic until and unless you get two reviews that average above the community ave which is 6.1 right now. You have to have two.

      An industry person can download and read your script but their rating is WEIGHTED. Not sure why, because it seems that an industry person's point of view would hold more validity than the Black List readers, for sure. I mean, if they're an executive or assistant, right?

      You can opt to make your review public or private. If your ave is still above the community ave you will show up on the top lists for the (if you have 2) for the month and quarter, but you need 4 to get on the annual top list which is the second, third, and fourth quarter and once you age out of ONE year, your script DISAPPEARS again, unless you pay to get two more evaluations and then another two more to get onto the top list for the rest of the year.

      The deal with the 8s... if you get an 8 on any of your elements your script's logline gets sent out in the weekly email. If your evals come in in two separate weeks and you get an 8 on each evaluation, your script gets sent out twice.

      If the indy pro does read the list that week, he will never know you're on the top list until, and unless, they go onto the site and look at the top lists.

      You can restrict writers from downloading your script. You cannot restrict your script to ONLY producers/manager/agents. You have to allow all indy pros access. They can be assistants, prop managers, costume designers, hair people, any one that qualifies as an industry professional in their eyes.

      And no, you do not get transparency to know what position the indy pro is. That's the part that burns.

      Managers absolutely look at 8s. They cannot see the scores of the scripts on the top list. They have to select the script then, if the writer allows it, they can read reviews and see the scale of ratings.

      I only have high scoring evaluations visible. And yes, it's expensive, but the return is faster. With a contest you have to wait 8-9 months to get an answer, while the Black List response is faster, a couple of weeks. You can rewrite it and submit again.

      The downloads come from being on the top list, have your script be "reader recommended," and be a feature script. I have all three of those for Tracker, but when I initially hosted it I got a ton of downloads. Then I got a manager pretty quickly and every time any one looked at it they didn't know I was already repped until after they viewed it.

      Then a year and a half later my manager stopped managing and is only producing, so my script was no longer on the top lists and I had no exposure. I keep it up because people do see it on the "featured script" page. But I totally lost all that momentum with the 8s & 9s. The only way I can get back on the top lists is to pay for more evaluations and I have two scripts I'm going out with about a month apart.

      I don't think contests have the same ability to attract attention. For 9 months while scripts are being read and judged on a given contest, there are industry people who need material during that lag time. This is a valid place for them to search for new voices.

      Sounds like the costs can really add up. Wish they would at least let you know who requests your script the way contests do. Are you saying the Blacklist would get you more exposure than top contests like Nicholl, Austin, Page, Final Draft, etc.? Most of those contests have 8,000 plus entries.

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      • #33
        Re: Can I do anything with a high placement in a screenwriting competition?

        This could turn into another epic BL thread in a jiffy; I hope it doesn't.

        But, I did check out that Blood List business, and the proprietor's LinkedIn profile and site. Hmm, make me wonder why she doesn't try to monetize her site (aside from the contests) and compete with BL, but from a specialized perspective of Horror/Fantasy, etc. There's no intellectual property reason why not; she'd just have to hire a programmer. Alternatively, Franklin L. of the BL could license to her (and others of that ilk) a kit of programming tools (like PHP or whatever for people to set up and customize forums) so he could make even more $.

        I'm just ruminating before I go to bed...

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        • #34
          Re: Can I do anything with a high placement in a screenwriting competition?

          Regarding my Black List experience, no the reviews / opinions were not helpful at all. I have a friend who used to read for the studios, and he read that same draft before the BL and liked it. He had concerns of his own, which he pointed out, and which I've heeded.

          When I got those BL scores, I asked him what I should think about it. He asked if any of their comments stung. I said no. He said just ignore them. If they stung, it means it's stuff I was already concerned about. If they didn't, then the reviewers completely missed the mark on the writing and its intentions.

          I thought that was a fair note.

          Out of 15-20 people who've checked out my script along the way, those BL comments were the only comments I ignored.

          The only thing the BL experience taught me is that you can submit your stuff, someone can glance at it quickly, call it "crap" regardless of the quality and effort, and dump it in the trash. Which was in and of itself a valuable experience. I also had several friends and acquaintances not finish reading the longer draft, citing "I'll finish it soon." So, it was those kind of experiences that convinced me I'll take 30 years to get the film made at its longer length.

          So, BL only prepared me for harsh realities of how someone who is cranky would approach my script.

          -

          On the flipside, I don't 100% blame the readers who game the BL system for the simple reason that they must not get paid much per script. Living in LA is expensive, and reading 1 script a day will not pay the bills. And there is certainly no reason to stick to that if you can browse 5 of them and give quick comments with no one watching over your shoulder.

          I also don't blame BL for building that system and capitalizing off its well-known name. But, it hasn't been properly scaled.

          The biggest thing I find appalling is that the industry uses it as a standard when there is an obvious randomness and gaming to it. That's all.
          Last edited by Merrick; 05-03-2020, 10:07 PM.

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          • #35
            Re: Can I do anything with a high placement in a screenwriting competition?

            Sticking to the topic though, this is an interesting question the OP had, and I'm curious to know more answers.

            Certainly that competition they mention won't move the needle. But why is it that there are so many finalists, semi, etc. who get reps but few of those winning scripts ever get made? There's gotta be an answer to that.

            Very few scripts that win are perfect, but they're awarding the writer, who goes onto other (better) jobs?

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            • #36
              Re: Can I do anything with a high placement in a screenwriting competition?

              Don't over analyze competitions and placement. There is literally only one competition placement that will guarantee reads all over town and that is the top 10 of the Nicholl. Those scripts are gathered and forwarded everywhere once the announcement is made.

              For literally every other competition, your semi-final placement only helps when paired with a great logline ("great logline and it semi'd in three competitions, ok, maybe I'll add that to my overwhelming pile of reading").

              A competition can be a supplement to your logline but alone it is not a reason to read. No one cares about your win if they don't like the logline.

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              • #37
                Re: Can I do anything with a high placement in a screenwriting competition?

                Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
                Lists are a different animal.

                The Blood List:
                This is a list where people send in their favorite scripts. I had a friend who was on the list and he didn't submit it himself, someone else did. Kailey Marsh started The Blood List and is now also a manager.

                It was a survey of favorite unproduced horror scripts. Only working executives can vote. But it looks like you are able to submit your own work now-- I'm not actually sure how it works now. There were 500 plus submissions last year. The Blood List also includes other dark genres now, too.

                The Annual Black List
                is NOT something an amateur can submit to, but you could be an unrepped writer who gets on the list because your script is in circulation eg: indy pros file sharing.
                It is a compilation from a survey of the most popular scripts that are, as of that date, unproduced. You cannot submit your script. About 250 industry professionals submit their PICK and the picks are tallied. Scripts usually cut off at the 5 to 6 vote's mark.

                It's not something a writer can submit to. These scripts have already been circulating within the industry by their reps. It is probably the single most relevant list, but I've also heard of reps pumping other "voters" to get their client votes so they get on the list.

                Lists are a way to promote and hype a writer client's work. Many on The Black List are already set up with studios, financiers, and prodcos by the time the list is generated in I think December. I've been downloading Black List scripts for personal reading since 2006. They are professionally written scripts and if you want to compete with these guys, your scripts need to emulate them, and not shoot for being the best amateur.

                That's my personal feeling. Ever hear the saying, "you've got to already be doing the job you want in order to be promoted into that position?" It's just as true here. Being the best amateur says a lot about your craft, but hitting all cylinders as a pro-level writer means more.

                Just don't ever stop pushing yourself. Keep listening to what people say about your writing carefully. Toss that which does not help you and learn from what does.

                Hit List:
                This is an interesting Reddit thread https://www.reddit.com/r/Screenwriti...2018_hit_list/ you might consider reading.

                Another survey type format of industry professionals. Though there's not a lot of transparency in these lists, it looks like there are a few hundred industry professionals that vote on this list as well.

                Pretty sure I've got that right.
                FA4
                In case anyone's wondering, Kailey Marsh, founder of the Blood List, is now a manager at Brillstein. Think this just happened recently.

                As for the Black List, it's definitely true that reps push for placement. And honestly, I don't see anything wrong with that. Having made the list, I'm biased, of course, but I don't see why people get upset with reps lobbying people who read the script earlier in the year and to remind them to vote for it if they really did love it. One of mine was sent out in January, and it's likely that if I didn't have people pushing, the execs who voted wouldn't have remembered. Far as I'm concerned, they were just doing their job by promoting the interests of their client.

                I will say though that it is extra special hard to get on the list without a rep. I'm sure one or two have done it, but your script has to go out wide and make something of an impact. And I don't think indie producers have much sway, if at all, on the process. In fact, indie producers will have to do pretty much the same thing and lobby executives to get a script on.

                At the end of the day, it's all just marketing. Whether a contest, query, list, whatever, they're all just tools for us to generate interest, and potentially a sale.

                Final note, the Hit List queries assistants and lower level development execs, I think. I didn't get on the HL the same year I did make the BL, which I thought was both interesting and a little strange. I'm pretty sure it has to do with who's voting in each.
                Last edited by docgonzo; 05-04-2020, 12:13 PM.

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                • #38
                  Re: Can I do anything with a high placement in a screenwriting competition?

                  I'm just curious about the semi-finals and finals placements of these various top contests in terms of at what level of placement the reps start trying to reach out rather than writers having to just put that in a query. I know the top 10 of Nicholl and a high placement in Austin the reps might start trying to contact the writers.

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                  • #39
                    Re: Can I do anything with a high placement in a screenwriting competition?

                    Originally posted by docgonzo View Post
                    In case anyone's wondering, Kailey Marsh, founder of the Blood List, is now a manager at Brillstein. Think this just happened recently.
                    For those interested, Scripts and Scribes has a podcast 2/24/15 with Kailey. I remember listening to the podcast last year when I went crazy and listened to all of them to create my list. http://www.scriptsandscribes.com/201...-kailey-marsh/

                    It's worth listening to. She also doesn't just rep horror writers. She's also into producing.

                    As for the Black List, it's definitely true that reps push for placement. And honestly, I don't see anything wrong with that. Having made the list, I'm biased, of course, but I don't see why people get upset with reps lobbying people who read the script earlier in the year and to remind them to vote for it if they really did love it. One of mine was sent out in January, and it's likely that if I didn't have people pushing, the execs who voted wouldn't have remembered. Far as I'm concerned, they were just doing their job by promoting the interests of their client.
                    I just want to clarify, because I don't want to be misunderstood. My intention was not to negatively criticize that reps promote their clients. Yes, that is their job. I was simply stating a fact about the landscape and competitive nature of getting on the list.

                    It's no different than your rep going on The Black List website and giving you a high score. My rep did it, too, because he believed in the project and felt it deserved a high score. Like any project, it's subjective. There's nothing wrong with that. It's not unethical. It is their job. Do repped writers have an advantage with that, sure. But when you get a rep, you're going to want your reps to support you that way, too.

                    I will say though that it is extra special hard to get on the list without a rep. I'm sure one or two have done it, but your script has to go out wide and make something of an impact. And I don't think indie producers have much sway, if at all, on the process. In fact, indie producers will have to do pretty much the same thing and lobby executives to get a script on.

                    At the end of the day, it's all just marketing. Whether a contest, query, list, whatever, they're all just tools for us to generate interest, and potentially a sale.

                    Final note, the Hit List queries assistants and lower level development execs, I think. I didn't get on the HL the same year I did make the BL, which I thought was both interesting and a little strange. I'm pretty sure it has to do with who's voting in each.
                    Congratulations, Docgonzo, for on getting on the Annual Black List. I read a lot of those scripts and the writing is all quality.
                    "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

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                    • #40
                      Re: Can I do anything with a high placement in a screenwriting competition?

                      Originally posted by Northbank View Post
                      Don't over analyze competitions and placement. There is literally only one competition placement that will guarantee reads all over town and that is the top 10 of the Nicholl. Those scripts are gathered and forwarded everywhere once the announcement is made.

                      For literally every other competition, your semi-final placement only helps when paired with a great logline ("great logline and it semi'd in three competitions, ok, maybe I'll add that to my overwhelming pile of reading").

                      A competition can be a supplement to your logline but alone it is not a reason to read. No one cares about your win if they don't like the logline.
                      This is my understanding as well.
                      "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Can I do anything with a high placement in a screenwriting competition?

                        All of the scripts ranged from unreadably horrible to bad.
                        If I wanted to change my sig line on the board, I would think about using this.

                        "The fact that you have seen professionals write poorly is no reason for you to imitate them." - ComicBent.

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                        • #42
                          Re: Can I do anything with a high placement in a screenwriting competition?

                          Originally posted by Merrick View Post
                          Thanks for the opinions! I submitted my script in an earlier draft to The Black List website and got 2 and 3, which is simply preposterous. I'm not trying to be arrogant at all. It was a well-considered, reasonably well-written thing that I think in the worst of scenarios was a 5 or a 6. BUT it didn't follow industry standards of page counts, formatting (in terms of hitting things by certain pages, etc.), and I think that is what knocked it way down.

                          I've since revised it into something way shorter that hits a lot of the milestones in a more organic but not strict way, and I'm sure it would fare better on there.

                          But to be honest, the reviews I got were just so terrible. I'm not averse to criticism because I've taken and used criticism from every single other reader who's looked at it, and I've always heeded advice. I even hired an independent script consultant and got very helpful feedback which I used to heavily edit my screenplay.

                          But these comments were plain bad. Generic, nothing useful. Even some misspellings.

                          So, that's why I'm hesitant to load it back there again, even in its much better form. The reviews felt rushed and lazy, and it was unhelpful in every way.

                          It felt arbitrary and like throwing money away.
                          One of my screenplays has placed in several competitions, including Austin last year, and (hand-to-God trying to figure out how to write this without sounding like a big-headed schmuck) all reviews/coverage/notes, etc have raved about it--adding small notes for small improvements.

                          "Well!" Thought I, "I must now pay for hosting on THE BLACK LIST and purchase a couple of evaluations!" $$$

                          . . . it got a 5 and a 4.

                          To your point, the notes were absolute crap. Everything they said was bad showed they didn't read enough of it to understand why they didn't understand it.

                          I *totally* believe the other comment about BL readers reading/evaluating 3-5 scripts a day. The overwhelming sense I got from BOTH evaluations was that:
                          1. They basically scanned the whole script, missing much of it (as they asked rhetorical questions about things which were clearly explained in the script).
                          2. They were creating things to knock me on.


                          And after some some research, I learned what ultimately caused me to yank my script off the BL, cancel my hosting and swear never to give them another dime:

                          Apparently, the vast majority of those who appear on the ANNUAL Black List who *also* pay for evaluations end up getting many 4s, 5s and 6s on theirs, as well.

                          Someone earlier asked "Why are reviews from ACTUAL industry professionals weighted, while BL evaluators' reviews carry much more weight?" A very good question, and one with really only one answer:

                          If industry professionals' reviews carried as much weight as the BL evaluators' reviews, the overall scores would likely go up-- meaning the BL can no longer ensure they can give almost all submissions lower scores, and hence not have to give out free evaluations. (which I think is just another way of letting them knock your score back down after receiving a good one, disguising it as a "reward.")

                          I hope I sound angry and not bitter-pissy. I think what they're doing is unfair and keep praying that something else more honest (or at least accurate) will come along and replace the PAID Black List.

                          I had hopes it would be Coverfly's Red List, but I doubt that will ever be it.

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                          • #43
                            Re: Can I do anything with a high placement in a screenwriting competition?

                            Originally posted by Cokeyskunk View Post
                            One of my screenplays has placed in several competitions, including Austin last year, and (hand-to-God trying to figure out how to write this without sounding like a big-headed schmuck) all reviews/coverage/notes, etc have raved about it--adding small notes for small improvements.

                            "Well!" Thought I, "I must now pay for hosting on THE BLACK LIST and purchase a couple of evaluations!" $$$

                            . . . it got a 5 and a 4.

                            To your point, the notes were absolute crap. Everything they said was bad showed they didn't read enough of it to understand why they didn't understand it.

                            I *totally* believe the other comment about BL readers reading/evaluating 3-5 scripts a day. The overwhelming sense I got from BOTH evaluations was that:
                            1. They basically scanned the whole script, missing much of it (as they asked rhetorical questions about things which were clearly explained in the script).
                            2. They were creating things to knock me on.


                            And after some some research, I learned what ultimately caused me to yank my script off the BL, cancel my hosting and swear never to give them another dime:

                            Apparently, the vast majority of those who appear on the ANNUAL Black List who *also* pay for evaluations end up getting many 4s, 5s and 6s on theirs, as well.

                            Someone earlier asked "Why are reviews from ACTUAL industry professionals weighted, while BL evaluators' reviews carry much more weight?" A very good question, and one with really only one answer:

                            If industry professionals' reviews carried as much weight as the BL evaluators' reviews, the overall scores would likely go up-- meaning the BL can no longer ensure they can give almost all submissions lower scores, and hence not have to give out free evaluations. (which I think is just another way of letting them knock your score back down after receiving a good one, disguising it as a "reward.")

                            I hope I sound angry and not bitter-pissy. I think what they're doing is unfair and keep praying that something else more honest (or at least accurate) will come along and replace the PAID Black List.

                            I had hopes it would be Coverfly's Red List, but I doubt that will ever be it.
                            For discussion purposes let’s accept that this is a subjective industry. I think that Rosemary Kennedy script that got set up and has Elisabeth Moss attached got a 2 on the Blcklst.

                            But my major question is - who are annual Blacklisted writers that are posting their stuff on the Blacklist other than Shia? (This is a genuine question - I actually don’t know)

                            That said, this is not surprising. It’s a “how likely would you be to recommend this to your boss?” metric. You know how many CE’s passed on my last spec? Probably 90% of them. Three former studio heads with either first look or financing deals really liked it. The industry is built on getting passes on your work.

                            Two reviews is a small sample. And the system takes into account for widely varying scores. If you can’t crap out a draft and get 7s and 8s consistently, I’d submit that you probably aren’t ready for representation. The first feature I wrote got 8,8,7,7,7,6,6. And I wasn’t close to being ready with that script. It’s cringeworthy.

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                            • #44
                              Re: Can I do anything with a high placement in a screenwriting competition?

                              Originally posted by Satriales View Post

                              You know how many CE's passed on my last spec? Probably 90% of them. Three former studio heads with either first look or financing deals really liked it. The industry is built on getting passes on your work.

                              If you can't crap out a draft and get 7s and 8s consistently, I'd submit that you probably aren't ready for representation. The first feature I wrote got 8,8,7,7,7,6,6. And I wasn't close to being ready with that script. It's cringeworthy.
                              So if it's your work the industry "is built on getting passes."

                              But if it's someone else's work -- they, of course, should be able to get 8's from no-name readers on the BL for any script they happen to "crap out" and if not, they aren't ready for reps?

                              Uh huh.

                              Having said that, good luck (seriously) with your script. I'm surprised at the many specs that are selling now. You think it'd be the opposite with the Pandemic still ongoing.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Can I do anything with a high placement in a screenwriting competition?

                                Originally posted by figment View Post
                                So if it's your work the industry "is built on getting passes."

                                But if it's someone else's work -- they, of course, should be able to get 8's from no-name readers on the BL for any script they happen to "crap out" and if not, they aren't ready for reps?

                                Uh huh.

                                Having said that, good luck (seriously) with your script. I'm surprised at the many specs that are selling now. You think it'd be the opposite with the Pandemic still ongoing.
                                Other than the fact that having broken in (or at least secured representation) there is ostensibly some level of vetting as to your ability that has occurred.

                                I'm speaking more to the subjective nature of all levels of writing, amateur and pro - and the necessity of having a short memory and not getting bogged down on singular feedback.

                                And despite the laughable quality of some Blcklst reviewers and the danger of small sample sizes, I also do believe that a writer who is ready to perform near a pro level will stand out and that will reflect in consistently high scores, even with the random variance of "this didn't click with me...4- thrown in there. (Apropos of nothing, I believe Jeff Lowell got a 6 on one review and a 9 when he did his secret shopping experiment. A 9 is really hard to get.)

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