Injecting heart and likeability

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Re: Injecting heart and likeability

    Originally posted by ChadStrohl View Post
    There has to be some adherence to rules if only to communicate with an audience that's been well trained to percieve those rules (whether they know it or not).
    This statement is demonstrably false. I won't bother listing the countless number of successful films that ignored or entirely destroyed these "rules". Tree of Life didn't fit these apparently innate rules, yet it was one of the most emotionally-charged cinema going experiences of my life.

    You train dogs, not audiences.

    (P.S. Before someone jumps down my throat and says "But Tree of Life was a unique and extreme case" think of what we are trying to achieve here - an emotional connection with the audience through the art of storytelling. If that is possible in one film that doesn't follow the rules, then it is possible in any of them.)
    Last edited by Rhodi; 02-09-2012, 06:03 PM.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Injecting heart and likeability

      Originally posted by Rhodi View Post
      This statement is demonstrably false. I won't bother listing the countless number of successful films that ignored or entirely destroyed these "rules". Tree of Life didn't fit these apparently innate rules, yet it was one of the most emotionally-charged cinema going experiences of my life.

      You train dogs, not audiences.

      (P.S. Before someone jumps down my throat and says "But Tree of Life was a unique and extreme case" think of what we are trying to achieve here - an emotional connection with the audience through the art of storytelling. If that is possible in one film that doesn't follow the rules, then it is possible in any of them.)
      We're all trained. 99% of anything we know is told to us by someone else - parents, clergy, news, friends, etc. That's not to say the 1% doesn't come shining through the mix in unique and surprising ways.

      And I threw a wishy washy "some" before "adherence", so my statement isn't as much false as it is not entirely true. Some people want a "Tree of Life". Some people want a "Fast5". Though I'll reserve my own judgment since I have seen neither.

      I'm not a stickler for rules at all. I lay down a soft outline, write, and then decide when and where I want certain elements to fall. I also write for me as my audience. I don't like nonplot. I don't like vignettes. I don't like overly introspective stories where people stare at metaphors and ponder their existence. I like stories where people blow things up and punch people in the face and then go have a beer... and then ponder their existence.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Injecting heart and likeability

        Personally, I could care less if the protagonist is likeable. I care if he/she is relatable. Do I understand why the character is the way they are. It comes down to the character's raison d'etre.

        A great example is the character of Jacks on Sons of Anarachy. He isn't a likeable guy. He's a criminal... a murderer. But he is a man stuck between two worlds. He is relatable, and for this, we are stuck in his plight with him.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Injecting heart and likeability

          I don't think "injecting" either of those things is a good idea. Your characters will be either likeable or dislikeable, and your story will have heart or it won't -I really dislike that expresion, "having heart", when applied to movies. The important thing is: are your characters and your story interesting? Think as a viewer, not a writer: do I want to watch this story, this guy?

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Injecting heart and likeability

            I did have my female protag choose to save a dog that was dumped on her. It was a choice made to smoothe out the character's rough edges. And being a female relectant hero she could come across as too hard.

            Once I decided it worked, I looked for other opportunties to work the dog in so it didn't seem tacked on a-la save the cat. The dog ended up giving me a great opportunity for foreshadowing of a midpoint event early in the first act. So I'm thinking if you use a similar technique to reveal a character's inner life make it as organic as possible.
            Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Injecting heart and likeability

              Originally posted by sc111 View Post
              I did have my female protag choose to save a dog that was dumped on her. It was a choice made to smoothe out the character's rough edges. And being a female relectant hero she could come across as too hard.

              Once I decided it worked, I looked for other opportunties to work the dog in so it didn't seem tacked on a-la save the cat. The dog ended up giving me a great opportunity for foreshadowing of a midpoint event early in the first act. So I'm thinking if you use a similar technique to reveal a character's inner life make it as organic as possible.
              Have you watched "Three Colors: Red"? The saving of a dog is used as a sort of inciting incident and to reveal character. It's done very nicely.

              (And it probably is my favorite movie of all time, so I'll use any excuse to recommend it.)

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Injecting heart and likeability

                A great example is the character of Jacks on Sons of Anarachy. He isn't a likeable guy. He's a criminal... a murderer.
                I disagree. Under that rough exterior he has a lot of positive qualities.
                Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Injecting heart and likeability

                  Originally posted by El_Davisimo View Post
                  A great example is the character of Jacks on Sons of Anarachy. He isn't a likeable guy. He's a criminal... a murderer. But he is a man stuck between two worlds.
                  Jax is a criminal, yes. But for most of its 4 seasons, Jax and SOA were involved only in the gun trade. And, in fact, the club protected Charming from meth traffickers and drug dealers... which actually kept SOA in high-esteem with the townspeople who believed SOA better protected them than their own police.

                  Jax is a murderer, yes. But, from what I recall, we've only seen him kill people that we wanted to see killed (a la Dexter). Case-in-point: Tara's ex-boyfriend (or husband) who comes to Charming and stalks her. We start to realize that he's a danger to Tara and to Jax's children. Eventually, Jax strangles him to death and proves that he'll protect his family and loved ones no matter what.

                  Jax is a criminal and a murderer, yes. But he lives by his own code of morals. There were times when Jax was supposed to kill someone for the club, but he let them live and sent them away with money and a threat.

                  Contrast Jax with Clay and you'll see how good a bad guy he really is. Clay is the real criminal and murderer. And any viewer of the show knows that.

                  We relate and side with Jax because he's a good person born to a bad profession.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Injecting heart and likeability

                    Originally posted by ATB View Post
                    We relate and side with Jax because he's a good person born to a bad profession.
                    Thank you. You reaffirmed the exact point I made. He isn't likeable. Murderers and criminals aren't likeable. BUT his situation is relatable. We relate to him because he is a man stuck between a rock and a hard place.

                    The point I was making is that likeability isn't important. Relatability is.

                    How about Ghostbusters? When we meet Dr. Venkman he is torturing a young man for the sake of getting laid. He is a douchebag. Everyone hates guys like that. But at the same time, we relate to him because we all have succumb to the power of a "hot blonde." We get it. Hell, I would have tortured that kid, too, if it meant getting her into bed.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Injecting heart and likeability

                      Murderers and criminals aren't likeable.
                      Sure they are and Jax is a likable guy. He just happens to work on the wrong side of he law.

                      If Jax were a police officer who always tried to do the right thing, was always there for his family and always had his partners back but sometimes went a little too far in the line of duty, would we be having a likeable or not discussion?

                      The show works because of the characters. Despite what they do, we still like most of them.
                      Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Injecting heart and likeability

                        See, I have a problem with your logic. Jax is far from "likeable."

                        And before I continue, I am not one who believes that criminals are bad and cops are good. If you knew me, you'd laugh at that thought...

                        But I digress...

                        If you were walking down the street, minding your own business and you came face-to-face with a guy like Jax, a gun-toting, biker-gang affiliating, criminal, you would not like him. You would not say, "Gosh, now that is one swell guy!"

                        The point I was making, which I think is being missed here, is that having to like a character does not matter. What matters is if we can relate to him/her. Can we understand their plight. We all have been stuck between a rock and hard place. We all understand that doing the right, good thing isn't the easiest option. Superman is likeable. He always does the right thing. But that isn't realistic. Real people aren't do-gooders. So, no Jax is not likeable. I do not like him. But I understand him. And that is the point.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Injecting heart and likeability

                          Davisimo,

                          I think you're trying too hard to convince us that Jax isn't likeable.

                          He is. His character is crafted so that we like him. He's the good guy amongst the bad guys.

                          Killing a bad guy makes you a bad guy? Since when? I can't think of one movie where a good guy killing a bad guy made him unlikeable.

                          Being a criminal makes you unlikeable? Since when? We all love to watch criminals. Especially when they're basically good guys in disguise.

                          The great thing about Sons of Anarchy is getting to know Jax and realizing that you like a guy you didn't think you would.

                          You wouldn't think you'd like a biker gang criminal who does, occasionally, murder piece-of-sh1t bad guys. But you do like him (or at least you should).

                          He's a family man. He's a man with principles. He's a better man than most people I know, to be honest.

                          And that's what makes the show interesting. It's similar to Dexter in that way. Making us like someone we didn't think we could.
                          Last edited by ATB; 02-11-2012, 12:49 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Injecting heart and likeability

                            If you were walking down the street, minding your own business and you came face-to-face with a guy like Jax, a gun-toting, biker-gang affiliating, criminal, you would not like him. You would not say, "Gosh, now that is one swell guy!"
                            Why not?

                            I'm sure we could roll down to the nearest strip club, throw back a few and talk football and have a good 'ol time. Hell, even Clay and I could kick it. He can tell Nam stories and I'll tell him Afghanistan stories. It's all good.
                            Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Injecting heart and likeability

                              I personally think the keyword is "empathy". It's making the audience identify with the character's situation/struggle/plight.

                              Context helps. By peeling away the layers of a character and understand what's motivates them, it helps the audience identify with their actions.

                              An example is an obnoxious guy on a plane. He's holding up passengers by trying to stuff an oversized bag into the overhead locker and berates anybody that gets near him. A flight attendant comes over to try diffuse the situation and explain to him how his bag won't fit. The obnoxious guy barks at her and criticizes her job and the airline she works for.

                              At first glance, the obnoxious passenger is perceived as the bad guy and we side with the poor flight attendant trying to do her job.

                              However, this is the same scene from MEET THE PARENTS. In that movie we understand the crap Ben Stiller's character has been through and it's given his actions context. And in that scene we identify with his character and the flight attendant comes across as the bureaucratic asshole.

                              IMO, by polarizing the actions of different characters and giving them context, the audience will often find one character identifiable (likeable) and the other unlike-able.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Injecting heart and likeability

                                Jax is likable. Sutter does all kinds of tricks to make sure he is.

                                Remember, a lot of times the denizens of the story-world are dark and horrible thus making a self centered character like Clint Eastwood's man with no name likable, or, in the case of SOA, a criminal like Jax likable.

                                Jax isn't even as grey as Don Draper or Tony Soprano. And he gets no where NEAR as dark as Walter White.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X