Halloween II

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  • #31
    Re: Halloween II

    Originally posted by Bono View Post
    Hilarious argument. I lose credibility because I dare to compare Zombie's Halloween II to oh my god to the original movies. And since I said the new F13 was decent proving I can like new versions of old horror movies I love, I'm also wrong in your eyes for some reason.

    I love when people have sweeping statements "people like you". I think you lose credibility for not telling me why you liked the movie and instead since you did like it, insulting me for daring to compare it to what inspired it.

    All my points were valid, with or without me referencing the first movies.

    If I took the movies on their own, with zero history behind it -- then they are even worse than before. It's the old movies that even got me to see it in the first place. But I can separate them, even though you think I don't possess that skill.

    So Walter, tell me why you liked Halloween II so much. Or maybe you are only talking about Halloween. I'll listen. Are you a fan of the original?
    I truly apologize sir, I did not mean to insult you. You are correct, using "people like you" was harsh and wrong of me to say. I was in a huff because of all these negative reviews of the movie that don't do anything BUT reference the original and I took that out on you. For that I apologize and I hope that you accept my apology.
    Trying to write, failing miserably.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Halloween II

      Bono, Hunter Stephenson wrote a decent (I know, I'm surprised too) article on slashfilm comparing Rob Zombies Halloween remake to the Platinum Dunes remakes, especially Friday The 13th, and that article pretty much sums up why the F13 remake was so much more blasphemous to the original than Zombie's remake.

      It's hard for me to defend the ending of the remake (original Halloween remake, not H2), and the reshoots forced by the studios mostly due to Quint being a little bitch. But if you can seek out the original workprint, the one that truly was Zombie's original vision, it's like watching a completely different movie. It DID humanize Myers and it was heartbreaking how it ended. But again, it's difficult for me to discuss unless you've already seen it. If you can find it, it's worth checking out.

      As for H2:

      The cinematography is why I loved it. Brandon Troth has had little mention in any review and that pisses me off. When was the last time that a horror movie looked that good? Seriously, the whole thing looked like a beautiful (yet horrific) oil painting. As a cinematographer, I was just blown away.

      But you want to hear about the story...

      So, I dug the intensity and how visceral the movie was. I didn't find it scary, I found it gut wrenchingly intense. I also dug how trippy it was, something that is a love it or hate it type of thing, I was in the former crowd ( a smaller crowd by my deduction). I thought that Sheri Moon Zombie was shoehorned into the movie and it did have its faults, but as it's own movie it kept me entertained for my hour and a half and I will be buying the Blu-Ray (though mostly for the cinematography and because of the chance that it will have another 4 1/2 hour documentary on the making of the film like the original remake Blu-ray did).
      I liked Lumis being an unrepentant (until the end) *******. I loved the scene at the book store. I liked how Zombie made you hate the characters that were about to be killed so that when they were getting killed in very gruesome ways I was actually able to enjoy it.
      I'm in the camp of people who like that Myers is being humanized and that's probably the difference between you and me. Yes, it makes things less scary, but it to me it made the whole experience more meaningful and actually gave some answers as opposed to the incredible vagueness of all the prior sequels.
      To sum it up: I LOVED the intensity, the cinematography, the humanizing of Michael and the overall trippyness of the movie. I enjoyed it. Was it my favorite movie of the year? Not by a long shot, but will I be watching it again? You bet your arse I will.

      --WW

      Again, sorry about being such a vague ******* in my original posts, you didn't deserve that.
      Trying to write, failing miserably.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Halloween II

        I think humanizing Michael Myers is a huge mistake. It completely nullifies the fear of the unknown. Suddenly there's the thought, "oh, that explains it", and I just don't think explanation lends itself well to instilling fear.

        That said, I haven't seen H2, so I'll reserve judgment. I am curious to see it - it sounds like it does have some good elements such as the cinematography, as WalterWhite mentioned.

        I hope it's better than Zombie's first Halloween film, which I thought was average.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Halloween II

          WalterWhite -- Thanks man. I wasn't that upset by it, but appreciate the apology nonetheless. Listen, anytime, I can find someone that gives a sh*t about horror movies, much less the 10th movie in a 30 year old franchise, well he's a friend of mine. I'd rather argue about horror movies than agree about a drama.

          Yes, it really does come down to the humanizing Myers. That is the core thing that I didn't like as to me that is a fundamental part of the original. It's what makes it Halloween and not F13. Jason drowns, the counselors didn't care, his mother tries to kill them, she dies, and he comes back to avenge her. He's got some "humanity." Same with Freddy, although he's never sympathetic for a second as he's a child/rapist murderer. But Michael was just evil. He just flipped one day and killed his sister. And he never talked. He just waited.

          Loomis is one of my favorite characters of all time. Love him. Perfect antagonist to Michael. And I thought in both movies, even though he was played by a great actor, he just wasn't up to par.

          And mainly, I think the scripts both sucked. I'm sure you could make a good story out the elements he used, but I've seen bad horror movies, but this script was pathetic. 95% of the characters are hicks/rednecks looking for a fight. What the hell is that? It was supposed to be suburban America. And Zombie is from my home state MA, so it's not like he knows these people well. He loves TEXAS CHAINSAW and was inspired by that. And all his characters are those same people.

          The first two Halloween movies were well-written and paced. Less is more. It proves that the script is very important.

          And I agree, Zombie is a good director. He has a style and yes it looked cool. That is what even made me more upset. That house looked perfect and I could see the movie it should have been. He's like M. Knight in a way. They need more input on their work to make it even better.

          But yes, explaining things ruins it. We live in a culture where people want answers and hell spoilers before TV or Films air. But the answers are never as good as what you can make up in your own mind. Just like LOST will try to answer some things, it will also leave other things unanswered. As Damon said, no one wants to know what The Force is in Star Wars. That would ruin it.

          And I didn't see this better version of HALLOWEEN you say is out there (love to see it) -- but as I recall, Michael wasn't abused. He just went nuts too. So in a way, it didn't humanize him at all. It just showed a young Jeffrey Dahmer type. He killed animals and then killed his family. There was still no reason why he did it. But Carpenter did more with that blank look at your Michael's face, than the hour Zombie wasted on backstory. We didn't even get to Halloween until the last 20 minutes.

          I just don't believe he could have loved the original and make these movies. He might believe he loved them, but he didn't. Or he just didn't have the writing talent to pull it off.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Halloween II

            The major changes from the original workprint to the theatrical cut (again, just to clarify, talking about the first remake) was thus:

            A) It had a kick ass title sequence where it freeze frames on young Michael as he runs down the hall before he beats that bully (I love that actor, forgot his name, but man is he amazing as a bully/*******. Check out "Worlds Greatest Dad" if you want to see that actor at his absolute most audacious) to death with the stick, which was an awesome death in my book. That freaked me the hell out, maybe I just have a phobia of being beaten to death by blunt instruments wielded by young creepy looking kids (PS, that kid who replaced Daeg in H2 was a joke, I think we can all agree on that )

            B) He DOES NOT kill Machete, I mean, Danny Trejo. It added a level of sympathy to the character. I think that scene made his character more mindless, choosing to not kill Danny Trejo, the man who was like a father to him (and dropped some amazing advice on him, you must admit, that line about living in your head was spot on!) made the character more human and therefore more sympathetic, yet also more methodical in his actions.

            C) His escape from the insane asylum was much more plausible.

            D) This is the main reason why the theatrical cut sucked in comparison - There is no running around smashing the roof of the house sequence. He is simply gunned down by the police in the doorway after Loomis convinces him to drop his knife. Loomis pleads for the cops not to shoot him, but they shoot the living crap out of him. The ending shot is of Michael, laying dead by Loomis and Laurie's feet while the camera ascended directly upwards, away from the body and the bloody scene. This left the viewer (or at least me) with one of the must gut wrenching feelings I've ever gotten from a movie in my life. I was floored, I didn't know how to feel. Zombie had actually accomplished what I thought impossible; he made me feel sorry to the point of tears over a MASS murderer. I actually cried a little bit when he died, I felt that there was still some human left in him and that he just got a really unfortunate run at life, that maybe if placed in a different situation he would have been a normal man (albeit a giant normal man!). I don't know how to describe the feeling exactly, but it left me shook for weeks. This was the perfect ending to the Myers saga for me (Zombie's saga at least). It was epic, brutal, gut-wrenching and heart breaking. It was like his masterpiece (zombies). And then Quint went and tore the script a new ******* and then the studios stepped in and RUINED EVERYTHING. Pisses me off to this day that so few people were able to see Zombie's true vision of this franchise, one that fully embraced humanizing Myers as opposed to attempting to walk a tight rope.
            Maybe you would not have enjoyed it still, because in the end it is all about whether or not you think that humanizing the character was a good thing. For me, I think it was the only place left to go for a character who started off simply known as nothing more than "the shape". Otherwise, he might as well have just pulled a Van Sant and Psycho'd the thing...

            End Rant/

            --WW
            Trying to write, failing miserably.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Halloween II

              @Vizfxman:
              If you can appreciate a movie for the cinematography alone, see H2, seriously amazing. Also, see Crank 2, same cinematographer, filmed on an XH-A1 prosumer camera and some consumer HD cams. This guy is a talent to look out for, he's reinventing how movies are shot/how they look.
              But, if you didn't like the first I highly doubt you'll have your mind changed by the sequel. My suggestion, just try your hardest to appreciate it for it's intensity and just go with the flow when things start getting weird/stop making sense.

              @Bono:
              I've heard that his scripts have insane amounts of typos on every page. Maybe he should consider directing a movie that was NOT written by himself, or at the very least consider a writing partner. I can see where you're coming from here.
              Trying to write, failing miserably.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Halloween II

                Well Walter, I really do want to see that now. If you find it somewhere, let me know.

                There's a similar thing with Halloween 6 and the producer's cut of it. I believe one time I found it and it was still pretty awful.

                Yes, Zombie needs us on this board to write The Blob for him.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Halloween II

                  What is the director's cut of Zombie Halloween on BluRay? Is that anything like the workprint. I've found some scenes on YouTube so far.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Halloween II

                    @Bono: That must've been rough, 'Halloween' being your fave and all. The original Zombie remake was aight, fun. But nothing compares to the original.

                    Also, I'm 100% with you on the F13 remake. I thought it was pretty rockin'! When Jason hurls his axe end over end! Dope! And the arrow through the dome came out of nowhere. And of course, you gotta love when he roasts that chick in her sleeping bag over the campfire. What I thought was really cool was how they gave us a 30 minute opening, then a title credit when Jason has been "fully reformed" into the killer we all remember. And then there's the moment when he finds the mask. SHell, I like the original F13s as much as the next guy, but I think the new one nailed it.

                    Oh, and I also agree with you on another point. As far as horror goes, the 'Saw' franchise is dope. The killings just keep getting sicker...the scripts are well executed, and the Jigsaw mythos obviously has longevity.

                    MHF

                    SMASH TO:

                    BLACK

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Halloween II

                      Originally posted by Bono View Post
                      What is the director's cut of Zombie Halloween on BluRay? Is that anything like the workprint. I've found some scenes on YouTube so far.
                      No, it's the theatrical cut with more violence. The only reason I bought it is because it comes with a second disk that documents the ENTIRE process of making the movie, from pre-production through every single day of filming all the way to post. It doesn't mention the reshoots, though. Even if you didn't like the movie, the doc is very interesting to watch. I'd recommend a rent for you.

                      But no, it is NOTHING like the workprint. If I can find the workprint again I will be sure to get it to you.

                      --WW
                      Trying to write, failing miserably.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Halloween II

                        Halloween II sucked so much ass, I'd be surprised if Rob Zombie (oooh, what a scary name, he must be, like, scary and edgy and stuff) is ever allowed to direct another film....

                        Awful writing, awful acting, awful everything....

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Halloween II

                          Originally posted by LuckyLucas View Post
                          Halloween II sucked so much ass, I'd be surprised if Rob Zombie (oooh, what a scary name, he must be, like, scary and edgy and stuff) is ever allowed to direct another film....

                          Awful writing, awful acting, awful everything....
                          Zombie's actually a really nice guy, so I'd ask that you separate your dislike of his films from the man himself.
                          Trying to write, failing miserably.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Halloween II

                            I just saw Zombie's Halloween (2007) again last night. I hated it first time I saw it -- now it's much better after time has healed the wounds of it not being what I hoped it would be.

                            And I caught some of the workprint scenes on YouTube, including the ending which was 100% better than what we got. That fade to black was awful. Myers chases her around the house, then all of a sudden they both go flying over the balcony... cut to black... back up, awkward ending.

                            I still hated the redneck dialogue at the beginning and I would have preferred more of Loomis doing his thing. But it was much better the 2nd time around.

                            Now, I've only seen Halloween II once, but I'm pretty sure I'll still hate that next time I see it. He said he didn't want to do the sequel and he shouldn't have done it if his heart wasn't in it.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Halloween II

                              I quite enjoyed it actually. OK, so the story was a huge mess, but the cinematography was goooooorgeous. And the performances, overall, were great.

                              I will continue to go see Rob Zombie pictures in theaters.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Halloween II

                                Originally posted by WalterWhite View Post
                                As for H2:

                                The cinematography is why I loved it. Brandon Troth has had little mention in any review and that pisses me off. When was the last time that a horror movie looked that good? Seriously, the whole thing looked like a beautiful (yet horrific) oil painting. As a cinematographer, I was just blown away.

                                But you want to hear about the story...

                                So, I dug the intensity and how visceral the movie was. I didn't find it scary, I found it gut wrenchingly intense. I also dug how trippy it was, something that is a love it or hate it type of thing, I was in the former crowd ( a smaller crowd by my deduction). I thought that Sheri Moon Zombie was shoehorned into the movie and it did have its faults, but as it's own movie it kept me entertained for my hour and a half and I will be buying the Blu-Ray (though mostly for the cinematography and because of the chance that it will have another 4 1/2 hour documentary on the making of the film like the original remake Blu-ray did).
                                I liked Lumis being an unrepentant (until the end) *******. I loved the scene at the book store. I liked how Zombie made you hate the characters that were about to be killed so that when they were getting killed in very gruesome ways I was actually able to enjoy it.
                                I'm in the camp of people who like that Myers is being humanized and that's probably the difference between you and me. Yes, it makes things less scary, but it to me it made the whole experience more meaningful and actually gave some answers as opposed to the incredible vagueness of all the prior sequels.
                                To sum it up: I LOVED the intensity, the cinematography, the humanizing of Michael and the overall trippyness of the movie. I enjoyed it. Was it my favorite movie of the year? Not by a long shot, but will I be watching it again? You bet your arse I will.
                                I agree with 100% of this

                                Comment

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