I Need Feedback About Giving Feedback

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  • I Need Feedback About Giving Feedback

    So I started reading a friend's script today and where to begin, oy vey. I was cringing.

    1. It's his first script. And I know all about first scripts.
    2. I read a draft two years ago and gave him feedback and it seems like he didn't use any of it.
    3. A pretty well-known screenwriting teacher/adviser who gave him ONE ON ONE FEEDBACK! on this script over a year ago. So I assumed - major improvements were in the works. (Yes, I know it's his first script, but still...)
    4. We're part of this erstwhile production concern (a longer story) and this version that I'm reading was sent to a production company before I had a chance to read it.
    5. I don't know who signed off on it, if they did before it was sent, but that's the least of my concerns.

    A. What honest feedback can I give him? I was at page 12 and I had to stop. Aside from grammatical errors and cringeworthy exposition, the dialogue is cringeworthy. All in the first twelve pages. I'm not expecting it to get better.
    B. I'm fine with giving feedback on drafts of scripts before they go somewhere, to Nicholl etc., but this is too late. It's out there and now he's expecting feedback from me.
    C. He was defensive about and sensitive to the feedback I gave him on the earlier draft.
    D. Has anyone else had this kind of situation with a friend? And what did you do?

    Any advice, thoughts, help would be greatly appreciated.
    Thanks...
    Last edited by Ire; 05-04-2014, 12:41 PM.
    #writinginaStarbucks #re-thinkingmyexistence #notanotherweaklogline #thinkingwhatwouldWilldo

  • #2
    Re: I Need Feedback About Giving Feedback

    Yeah, I feel your pain on this one.

    I don't fully understand how much of the badness of this script comes back to you - do I understand right that someone is reading this assuming that you've ok'd it/had a role in the writing..? I'm not sure how that gets fixed.

    In terms of the more general issue of giving feedback on something terminal, I think it depends on one/many of the following:

    1. How serious is the guy about being a writer? Two years to write a redraft of a first script??? That's a darling that needs killing.
    2. How close are you as friends?
    3. How close are you professionally - i.e. are you committed to working with him/her in the future?

    Depending on these factors, possible solutions are...
    Say 'look, your writing and mine are in different places, maybe start working on something else, find another reader as it's not clicking for me.' Be honest in saying that you aren't 'getting' it, but be positive by suggesting it could be your fault.
    Highlight the fact (nicely...) that you gave notes that seem to have been ignored, so again, maybe you're not getting it and he/she needs to find someone else for another opinion.
    Highlight the fact that two years for a redraft of a first script is crazy. Something like 'I don't feel much has moved on in two f**king years so maybe write something different, give yourself a break from this one, you can't see the wood for the trees...'
    Maybe share your own first-script-horror-story as a way of underlining that the first one is invariably just about reaching 100 pages then moving on (get him to listen to that Scriptnotes where they review their first scripts...)
    Erm... leave town...?

    I would say from personal experience of having been in this position, try and force yourself to read the whole thing because you may find something in the 120 pages that is not awful. Even one scene, or one idea that has a teeny bit of potential. Then you can at least latch onto that as a way of cushioning the blow that the other 99% sucks.

    Hope that helps...
    My stuff

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    • #3
      Re: I Need Feedback About Giving Feedback

      Originally posted by Jon Jay View Post
      Yeah, I feel your pain on this one.

      I don't fully understand how much of the badness of this script comes back to you - do I understand right that someone is reading this assuming that you've ok'd it/had a role in the writing..? I'm not sure how that gets fixed.

      In terms of the more general issue of giving feedback on something terminal, I think it depends on one/many of the following:

      1. How serious is the guy about being a writer? Two years to write a redraft of a first script??? That's a darling that needs killing.
      2. How close are you as friends?
      3. How close are you professionally - i.e. are you committed to working with him/her in the future?

      Depending on these factors, possible solutions are...
      Say 'look, your writing and mine are in different places, maybe start working on something else, find another reader as it's not clicking for me.' Be honest in saying that you aren't 'getting' it, but be positive by suggesting it could be your fault.
      Highlight the fact (nicely...) that you gave notes that seem to have been ignored, so again, maybe you're not getting it and he/she needs to find someone else for another opinion.
      Highlight the fact that two years for a redraft of a first script is crazy. Something like 'I don't feel much has moved on in two f**king years so maybe write something different, give yourself a break from this one, you can't see the wood for the trees...'
      Maybe share your own first-script-horror-story as a way of underlining that the first one is invariably just about reaching 100 pages then moving on (get him to listen to that Scriptnotes where they review their first scripts...)
      Erm... leave town...?

      I would say from personal experience of having been in this position, try and force yourself to read the whole thing because you may find something in the 120 pages that is not awful. Even one scene, or one idea that has a teeny bit of potential. Then you can at least latch onto that as a way of cushioning the blow that the other 99% sucks.

      Hope that helps...
      Thanks, Jon Jay.

      We are pretty good friends. And I know that an honest critique would likely alienate him. Since it was his first script, I did go kid gloves with my feedback. But even my kid gloves notes went for nothing.

      Just to clarify, he has written other scripts since this one (I haven't read any of his other scripts, only the pages he wrote for the rewrite.) And he hasn't been working on this script for two years (thank heavens), but yeah this one absolutely needs to be killed. We did work on a script together, well a rewrite of one of my scripts, but it wasn't a comedy like this one. (110 pages.) He does have a facility for writing action so it's not hopeless.

      You're also spot on that I need to read it all the way through and I will.

      With regards to it being read, the script is associated with our erstwhile production company (which is in a pre-natal state) and was sent to a real production company that has produced films with theatrical distribution. They were looking for a comedy so he did a quick "polish" ... anyway.

      One thing I do wonder is what did this respected screenwriting person tell him about the script. I don't doubt their reputation, but my friend had a class and then a one on one consult with them about this script. From my friend's account, pages of this script had been read, and the script was read previous to the consultation. I'd rather not go into detail about the process etc because it could be evident who the adviser was. Either way he should have been advised to drop it. It's beside the point, but it would only make sense if my friend totally disregarded their notes or comments like one of those American Idol contestants.
      Last edited by Ire; 05-04-2014, 02:10 PM.
      #writinginaStarbucks #re-thinkingmyexistence #notanotherweaklogline #thinkingwhatwouldWilldo

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      • #4
        Re: I Need Feedback About Giving Feedback

        Originally posted by Ire View Post
        C. He was defensive about and sensitive to the feedback I gave him on the earlier draft.
        Red flag; no hope until that's fixed. Tell him you value your friendship too much to give him feedback. That's a hard spot you're in.
        "You have idea 1, you're excited. It flops. You have idea 99, you're excited. It flops.
        Only a fool is excited by the 100th idea. Fools keep trying. God rewards fools." --Martin Hellman, paraphrased

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        • #5
          Re: I Need Feedback About Giving Feedback

          I wish I could do that, at least, with this script, WFI.

          Jon Jay, if you have a moment, check your PM.
          #writinginaStarbucks #re-thinkingmyexistence #notanotherweaklogline #thinkingwhatwouldWilldo

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          • #6
            Re: I Need Feedback About Giving Feedback

            Sounds like he didn't listen to you first time around and got defensive (not what someone who is really looking for feedback does). My guess is he didn't listen to the dude he paid, either.

            So here's the real problem: is this person crapping on *you* by sending the script to this producer when you are partners in a company? Maybe that's a conversation that needs to happen.

            I think you need to be honest with your feedback. That's not being mean. Take the emotions and any clever slam you might have out of it and stick to the facts. Explain the *why this doesn't work* if possible. Start by saying you're treating this like a pro's script, not a friend's script. And if all else fails, maybe get him a second opinion from one of the coverage folks here, if it's in the budget.

            I think the biggest issue here is: First script sent out into the world. Heck, that's a recipe for disaster! Dude needs to write more screenplays before they start sending anything out into the world... especially if they are connected to you.


            Bill
            Free Script Tips:
            http://www.scriptsecrets.net

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            • #7
              Re: I Need Feedback About Giving Feedback

              Originally posted by wcmartell View Post
              Sounds like he didn't listen to you first time around and got defensive (not what someone who is really looking for feedback does). My guess is he didn't listen to the dude he paid, either.

              So here's the real problem: is this person crapping on *you* by sending the script to this producer when you are partners in a company? Maybe that's a conversation that needs to happen.

              I think you need to be honest with your feedback. That's not being mean. Take the emotions and any clever slam you might have out of it and stick to the facts. Explain the *why this doesn't work* if possible. Start by saying you're treating this like a pro's script, not a friend's script. And if all else fails, maybe get him a second opinion from one of the coverage folks here, if it's in the budget.

              I think the biggest issue here is: First script sent out into the world. Heck, that's a recipe for disaster! Dude needs to write more screenplays before they start sending anything out into the world... especially if they are connected to you.


              Bill
              I'm checking into who has the script and whether or not we can get the script back.

              I like the idea of getting a "second opinion." It puts it in plain perspective.
              #writinginaStarbucks #re-thinkingmyexistence #notanotherweaklogline #thinkingwhatwouldWilldo

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              • #8
                Re: I Need Feedback About Giving Feedback

                Buy a few rounds of beer and be honest with him.

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                • #9
                  Re: I Need Feedback About Giving Feedback

                  I wouldn't do anything -- just wish him luck and let it go. It's time for him to sink or swim as a writer.

                  In general, I've decided that offering feedback is a waste of time until the writer demonstrates he is ready to be honest with him/herself.

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                  • #10
                    Re: I Need Feedback About Giving Feedback

                    Frankly, if this writer -- friend or no -- hasn't taken your notes to heart and returns to the well again, they are guilty of wasting YOUR time, which you may or may not choose to regard as an insult. It is no small thing to read somebody's work and take the time to give honest feedback, and apparently there's no appreciation of that in play here. If they didn't appreciate your notes before, they shouldn't be asking you to extend yourself again.

                    If you have a relationship where they do provide you with valuable useful feedback on your own work in turn, perhaps that's something to consider, but beyond that, I don't think you owe it to them to read any further or provide notes. I agree having an honest conversation about it with said person is the way to go, and how well they handle that is really on them, out of your control. Good luck. Not a comfortable situation, I'm sure.

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                    • #11
                      Re: I Need Feedback About Giving Feedback

                      The problem is learning to take notes is a skill that needs to be developed just as much as writing.

                      I have a similar situation with a friend who always asks for notes, but never seems to implement them. In all the time I've known her, I've probably read five or six of her scripts, but I've never seen a second draft of anything. Even though my stuff is going out/getting meetings, and she's still struggling to find a manager who will work with her.

                      So what do I do? Nothing. I keep reading her stuff and giving my honest feedback. There's not really anything you can do to make another person take your advice. And if they're not listening to you in the first place, making a big deal over it before they have developed the skill of taking notes, is just going to make them defensive.

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                      • #12
                        Re: I Need Feedback About Giving Feedback

                        Thanks for the feedback, folks!

                        Just one update, we were able to get the script "back" as it hadn't been read and other priorities came up for that contact.

                        So now the issue at hand is finding a compelling and diplomatic way to give the notes.
                        #writinginaStarbucks #re-thinkingmyexistence #notanotherweaklogline #thinkingwhatwouldWilldo

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                        • #13
                          Re: I Need Feedback About Giving Feedback

                          I think when you're giving feedback to a friend you have to consider a few things:
                          The biggest thing: does the friend really really aspire to be a better screenwriter? If so, and they're coming to you for feedback, you need to be honest. Be honest. Tell them straight up: Slug lines need to be this, action lines should be that. Avoid this, consider that. But when you're doing so you have to be sure a) to not be personal and b) to not attack so harshly they won't listen. Try to comment on the things that worked, whether it was the concept or maybe they got a few formatting things right or maybe their dialogue wasn't bad. Pick out a few things and pat them on the back. Then say something like, "I know you want to make this the best that it can be, and I know you can do it." type thing. Remind them it's better to hear they have a lettuce between their teeth before they go off to the interview rather than on the big day.

                          Also, giving them some scripts to look at can help. It's a long haul from the very first script to something that may have been nominated for an Oscar, but if a new writer can see/understand that that's what they're competing with and see how those are written that can help a lot.
                          Good luck.
                          Last edited by cvolante; 05-06-2014, 02:26 AM.

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                          • #14
                            Re: I Need Feedback About Giving Feedback

                            maybe just be honest - brutally honest - but compassionate. Tell the writer his or her strengths, peppering in their weaknesses. Talk to them about where the story works and unfortunately where you felt they went wrong and these are the reasons you feel the way you do.

                            Handle it as if they were you and you are the one expecting notes. It's all about tact.

                            And remind them: thick skin is a prerequisite in this shitty-ass field- so suck it up and stop acting like a little whinny bitch.

                            Or lie -- and just say it rocked and leave it at that.

                            *And don't be afraid to ask them how they feel they did. Where the script is at in their eyes. What they see are weaknesses in the story. Feel them out -- let them lead you, so to speak, where they ask you questions and you answer never straying into uncharted grounds.
                            Last edited by bjamin; 05-05-2014, 11:31 AM. Reason: *

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                            • #15
                              Re: I Need Feedback About Giving Feedback

                              Someone who is defensive and didn't take your notes the first time around?
                              Honestly, I'd start there, forget the script. Tell him your notes from round one still stand and that if he isn't ready to do some compromising and grow some thicker skin, he isn't ready to send stuff out. It's rough and it sucks but it's the way of the business (and world).

                              I had a close contact who wanted me to turn their self-published novel into a script. After a ton of emails and conversations about what needed to change for an adaptation, I was still getting a lot of pushback. He didn't want me changing anything but essentially wanted me to type his novel into FD, write a treatment and send it to my contacts. Yeah, sure, get right on that. Though I really didn't want to hurt his feelings and had been treading lightly until then, I finally had to send a hard but firm email that basically described how difficult this business is and that these were the things that needed to happen if he was to have any shot at this. It was a very nice email but I gave it to him straight.

                              I never got a reply.

                              I'm not sad. (but it took not hearing back to make me realize that)

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