Protags: Likable? Relatable? Empathetic? Or is intriguing enough?

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  • #46
    Re: Protags: Likable? Relatable? Empathetic? Or is intriguing enough?

    SC111 and FA4

    What you've overlooked, and is integral to my point, is the cheering of 'good guys' who commit atrocious, unjust and murderous acts yet you don't question your moral stance by supporting them. From Dirty Harry to First Blood to Commando to Cobra to Die Hard to K-9 to Tango and Cash to Lethal Weapon etc.

    In Commando, for example, Arnold Schwarzenegger double-crossed and murdered someone for no reason - the exact type of actions that are used to et up bad guys (your typical Bond movie, for a start) yet no one ever calls out Schwarzenegger, or any other 'hero', because they're the good guys.

    And that's what I'm talking about: perspective.
    M.A.G.A.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Protags: Likable? Relatable? Empathetic? Or is intriguing enough?

      Originally posted by Bono View Post
      I'll admit I did watch The Shield and I didn't like it. So it's not just them being bad and I'm in. It's still about the story and characters.
      The leads in The Shield weren't bad, though. They were good guys who,, depending on your moral compass, crossed the line now and then in order to get the result that justice deserved. I don't know how long you gave it - and you have to gibe it almost all of series one - but it was a phenomenal show and blurred the lines between 'right, even though it's not strictly legit' and 'gone too far'. `It's also the only show I've watched where each series builds on the last, snowballing, and that everything leads back to events in the very first episode.

      That - as with all the show we have discussed - is great screenwriting. No one is 'good' or 'bad'. Ass in real life, everyone is a mixture at various points. Vic Mackey put bad guys away. Sometimes 100% legally, sometimes when everyone knew a guy was guilty but the legal process got in the way, but he always acted with the best intentions and so with that in mind is the blurring of the lines. If person A is convinced they're doing the right thing, even if person B says they overstepped the mark, you can still see A's point of view.

      And when it get dealers, paedos and murderers off the street, is it a bad thing if evidence was planted, intel was illegally obtained, or key players were leaned on? You're free to make up your own mind but a) the bottom line is it was only done to get certified shitbags off the street, and b) we were all cheering when all those 80s hero cops - from Stallone to Schwarzenegger to Willis to Norris to Belushi to Russell to Gibson to Selleck to Phillips to Lundgren to Van Damme did the exact same things.
      M.A.G.A.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Protags: Likable? Relatable? Empathetic? Or is intriguing enough?

        Originally posted by SundownInRetreat View Post
        ... we empathise because they have a code - if anyone was truly evil then I doubt we'd care but we understand the ethics they live by - even if it's in relation to operating outside the law. And as we identify their morality, their code, we empathise when they're double-crossed or suffer despite their best intentions.

        ... yet we cheer them on, regardless, when they're just as contemptible as the bad guys we're talking about in this thread.
        Dexter, (2006-2013), is a good example. (Edit to add: just went through the thread more thoroughly and noticed sc111 mentioned that as well)
        Last edited by Clint Hill; 06-24-2020, 05:27 PM.
        “Nothing is what rocks dream about” ― Aristotle

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Protags: Likable? Relatable? Empathetic? Or is intriguing enough?

          Originally posted by TigerFang View Post
          Dexter, (2006-2013), is a good example.
          Exactly.
          M.A.G.A.

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Protags: Likable? Relatable? Empathetic? Or is intriguing enough?

            Originally posted by sc111 View Post
            Boldface 1:

            Well, I was able to watch as much as I did because it was intriguing to watch a mild-mannered science teacher "go bad." But I didn't empathize with (or relate to) him because he was given a legitimate solution to his problem early on.

            Then he quickly went to the dark side and became a study in "how low will he go" which I found kind of boring and forced, actually. If I recall correctly, he kills someone early on in season one. It was a leap I found hard to take -- one minute he's grading student papers, next minute he's killing people.

            I can see how fans of the show are intrigued by the plot turns and other characters, but, personally, when I lose interest in the protagonist, I'll wander off. A case can be made that Walter White just went full throttle sociopath really fast. It's hard to expect all audience segments can and will relate to a man who becomes a sociopath virtually overnight.

            Meanwhile, Walter White is a fictional character who makes wild WTF? over-the-top choices that are hard for me to identify with or relate to.

            Maybe that's the lesson: if we're writing "bad" protags aim to keep their choices and goals rooted in reality in a way that the audience can see the protag as "real" and intriguing and possibly even likable.
            In reading your comments above, I recall the episode where Walt knows he has cancer. He knows the financial situation after his imminent death does not provide well for his wife, son, and a baby on the way.

            He goes for a ride-along with his D.E.A. brother-in-law, sees one of his former students escape a drug bust, all the cash the dope dealers have on hand, the chemistry set in the townhouse, and hears an aside from the brother-in-law about how that much cash is peanuts compared to what they usually take in.

            The arena Walter White chose to enter then and there to make the cash he needed to provide for his wife, son, and baby dictated his rapid descent into “full-throttle sociopath.” Later, when a drug-making dealer plotted to kill him, it became “kill or be killed” for Walter White, part of the code of the jungle he found himself in. After keeping the man alive on balogna sandwiches, Walter’s logic for deciding to kill him came to us through a soliloquy he gave. As he said, he had no choice.

            It was a simple recipe for a concept—an ordinary man stricken with cancer tries an illegal get-rich-quick scheme to provide for his family— but then many layers, facets, and multiple intriguing characters made it a delicious cocktail for consumption that tickled the palate on many levels.
            Last edited by Clint Hill; 06-24-2020, 01:47 PM.
            “Nothing is what rocks dream about” ― Aristotle

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Protags: Likable? Relatable? Empathetic? Or is intriguing enough?

              So I ask:

              Originally Posted by sc111
              Huh? I simply can't be human if I can't empathize with Walter White? Whoa.
              And you respond:

              Originally posted by SundownInRetreat View Post
              Yes.
              Okayyyyyyyyyyy.
              Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Protags: Likable? Relatable? Empathetic? Or is intriguing enough?

                Originally posted by SundownInRetreat View Post
                SC111 and FA4

                What you've overlooked, and is integral to my point, is the cheering of 'good guys' who commit atrocious, unjust and murderous acts yet you don't question your moral stance by supporting them. From Dirty Harry to First Blood to Commando to Cobra to Die Hard to K-9 to Tango and Cash to Lethal Weapon etc.

                In Commando, for example, Arnold Schwarzenegger double-crossed and murdered someone for no reason - the exact type of actions that are used to et up bad guys (your typical Bond movie, for a start) yet no one ever calls out Schwarzenegger, or any other 'hero', because they're the good guys.

                And that's what I'm talking about: perspective.
                Frankly -- after reading your first paragraph that posits I "simply can't be human" if I don't empathize with Walter White, I stopped reading the rest of your earlier comment.

                And now that you clarified your "simply can't be human" remark by responding "yes" it validated my decision to stop reading "your integral point."

                Telling people they're not human because they don't empathize with the protag in your beloved show is a discussion killer -- at least for me it is.
                Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Protags: Likable? Relatable? Empathetic? Or is intriguing enough?

                  Originally posted by SundownInRetreat View Post
                  SC111 and FA4

                  What you've overlooked, and is integral to my point, is the cheering of 'good guys' who commit atrocious, unjust and murderous acts yet you don't question your moral stance by supporting them. From Dirty Harry to First Blood to Commando to Cobra to Die Hard to K-9 to Tango and Cash to Lethal Weapon etc.

                  In Commando, for example, Arnold Schwarzenegger double-crossed and murdered someone for no reason - the exact type of actions that are used to et up bad guys (your typical Bond movie, for a start) yet no one ever calls out Schwarzenegger, or any other 'hero', because they're the good guys.

                  And that's what I'm talking about: perspective.
                  Please, I haven't overlooked anything and stop telling me what I'm misunderstanding, missing or confusing.

                  You just said sometimes we disagree and sometimes we agree, yet you come back and argue how you feel I missing something. Actions speak louder than words.

                  Just state your own opinion instead of arguing why someone else is wrong because they don't agree with yours.
                  "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Protags: Likable? Relatable? Empathetic? Or is intriguing enough?

                    Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
                    Please, I haven’t overlooked anything and stop telling me what I’m misunderstanding, missing or confusing.

                    You just said sometimes we disagree and sometimes we agree, yet you come back and argue how you feel I missing something. Actions speak louder than words.

                    Just state your own opinion instead of arguing why someone else is wrong because they don’t agree with yours.
                    Not only do I agree with you FA4, I find it bizarre that Sundown's "integral point" is based on the wild assumption that each of us "cheers on" the violence of protags like Rambo and Dirty Harry.

                    Sloppy thinking -- then again, what do I know, since I'm simply not human.
                    Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Protags: Likable? Relatable? Empathetic? Or is intriguing enough?

                      Originally posted by TigerFang View Post
                      In reading your comments above, I recall the episode where Walt knows he has cancer. He knows the financial situation after his imminent death does not provide well for his wife, son, and a baby on the way.

                      He goes for a ride-along with his D.E.A. brother-in-law, sees one of his former students escape a drug bust, all the cash the dope dealers have on hand, the chemistry set in the townhouse, and hears an aside from the brother-in-law about how that much cash is peanuts compared to what they usually take in.

                      The arena Walter White chose to enter then and there to make the cash he needed to provide for his wife, son, and baby dictated his rapid descent into "full-throttle sociopath.- Later, when a drug-making dealer plotted to kill him, it became "kill or be killed- for Walter White, part of the code of the jungle he found himself in. After keeping the man alive on balogna sandwiches, Walter's logic for deciding to kill him came to us through a soliloquy he gave. As he said, he had no choice.

                      It was a simple recipe for a concept-an ordinary man stricken with cancer tries an illegal get-rich-quick scheme to provide for his family- but then many layers, facets, and multiple intriguing characters made it a delicious cocktail for consumption that tickled the palate on many levels.
                      As I said, I watched season 1 then lost interest so I barely recall those details.

                      Thing is -- I totally get why the show was so popular. A mild mannered teacher who followed all the rules of life gets dealt an f-ed up hand -- cancer, et al -- and goes to the dark side "breaking bad" because being a nice guy didn't get him anywhere.

                      I can see how that's a cathartic release for viewers who have been f-ed over by life after following the rules all of their lives. Walter acts out our revenge fantasies. I get it.

                      Catharsis aside, it doesn't make him likable or empathetic to me. To each his/her own.
                      Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Protags: Likable? Relatable? Empathetic? Or is intriguing enough?

                        Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                        As I said, I watched season 1 then lost interest so I barely recall those details.

                        Thing is -- I totally get why the show was so popular. A mild mannered teacher who followed all the rules of life gets dealt an f-ed up hand -- cancer, et al -- and goes to the dark side "breaking bad" because being a nice guy didn't get him anywhere.

                        I can see how that's a cathartic release for viewers who have been f-ed over by life after following the rules all of their lives. Walter acts out our revenge fantasies. I get it.

                        Catharsis aside, it doesn't make him likable or empathetic to me. To each his/her own.
                        For me, binge-watching the show last year, years after it was in its heyday to see what the fuss was all about, I was always reminded that Walter White (another alliterative character name, for Pete’s sake; against “the rules!”) was doing what he was doing for his wife, son, and baby daughter. The family always came into the scene after a serious turn for Walter White. The family’s presence always reminded us as, the audience, of Walter’s “mission to provide,” a relatable trait. Eventually, Walter’s actions—if only by association—took down the family unit, too. Western Union message: “Don’t do drugs, kids!”
                        “Nothing is what rocks dream about” ― Aristotle

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Protags: Likable? Relatable? Empathetic? Or is intriguing enough?

                          Anyway -- Breaking Bad is a lot more than Walter White -- it's everything including amazing characters. So good they have a whole new series Better Call Saul -- that at first I was upset about and now the last 2 years have been amazing TV.

                          It's so well made, so unique, so many great characters -- music, acting, filmmaking, storylines, New Mexico setting. The fact that it took the dad from Malcolm in the Middle of all things and showed how actors have range.

                          And much like The Wire showed what great writing can do.

                          Hank
                          Mike
                          Gus
                          Jessie

                          It's crazy good.

                          Also Jessie is the moral compass of the show. He's Walter's sidekick/student and he's the audience POV as he's "bad" but not that bad and he's the one we all are cheering for deep down to be okay. So that helps.

                          Even so it's just a dumb TV show so if you don't like it -- that's fine. I'm just saying -- it's more than just what it appears to be. The appeal is more than the setup.

                          Just from a filmmaking perspective -- the show is a must watch. To me.

                          But my favorite show is LOST. BREAKING BAD is the best overall show I ever saw from start to finish. And yet THE WIRE may be the best show ever made. I'm talking hour drama.

                          But yeah, I watch mostly Bravo reality shows -- so trust me -- I love some just popcorn eating TV.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Protags: Likable? Relatable? Empathetic? Or is intriguing enough?

                            Originally posted by DDoc View Post
                            Fair enough, though it's worth noting Walter struggled with the decision to kill that guy early on. If I recall right he was going to let the guy go until he found out he was hiding a weapon (piece of plate or something) and Walter didn't want to accept what it meant. If you really want to see a zero to one hundred sociopath turn you should read up on how that scene was originally going to play. In all honesty seeing how off-base they were, the creators of one of the great contemporary TV shows, gives me more confidence.

                            Tell me more... what you are saying? Give me the behind the scenes...

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Protags: Likable? Relatable? Empathetic? Or is intriguing enough?

                              Originally posted by SundownInRetreat View Post
                              SC111 and FA4

                              What you've overlooked, and is integral to my point, is the cheering of 'good guys' who commit atrocious, unjust and murderous acts yet you don't question your moral stance by supporting them. From Dirty Harry to First Blood to Commando to Cobra to Die Hard to K-9 to Tango and Cash to Lethal Weapon etc.

                              In Commando, for example, Arnold Schwarzenegger double-crossed and murdered someone for no reason - the exact type of actions that are used to et up bad guys (your typical Bond movie, for a start) yet no one ever calls out Schwarzenegger, or any other 'hero', because they're the good guys.

                              And that's what I'm talking about: perspective.

                              I love Commando and all those ******s deserved to die... they kidnapped his daughter and killed his team -- go 80 america!!!!!

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Protags: Likable? Relatable? Empathetic? Or is intriguing enough?

                                Originally posted by SundownInRetreat View Post
                                The leads in The Shield weren't bad, though. They were good guys who,, depending on your moral compass, crossed the line now and then in order to get the result that justice deserved. I don't know how long you gave it - and you have to gibe it almost all of series one - but it was a phenomenal show and blurred the lines between 'right, even though it's not strictly legit' and 'gone too far'. `It's also the only show I've watched where each series builds on the last, snowballing, and that everything leads back to events in the very first episode.

                                That - as with all the show we have discussed - is great screenwriting. No one is 'good' or 'bad'. Ass in real life, everyone is a mixture at various points. Vic Mackey put bad guys away. Sometimes 100% legally, sometimes when everyone knew a guy was guilty but the legal process got in the way, but he always acted with the best intentions and so with that in mind is the blurring of the lines. If person A is convinced they're doing the right thing, even if person B says they overstepped the mark, you can still see A's point of view.

                                And when it get dealers, paedos and murderers off the street, is it a bad thing if evidence was planted, intel was illegally obtained, or key players were leaned on? You're free to make up your own mind but a) the bottom line is it was only done to get certified shitbags off the street, and b) we were all cheering when all those 80s hero cops - from Stallone to Schwarzenegger to Willis to Norris to Belushi to Russell to Gibson to Selleck to Phillips to Lundgren to Van Damme did the exact same things.

                                I watched the pilot and not a joke last episode -- I was pointing out I'm also guilty of writing off a show. I love The Commish and Michael so I was excited. I need to go back as since then I saw Justified and learned the joys of Walton Goggins. I love cop shows (can we still say that?) and I never saw NYPD Blue but I've rewatched St. Elsewhere almost twice now. I'm a weirdo.


                                But let's be clear -- on many shows -- there are clear good guys and bad guys -- not every show is the lines are blurred. More often than not it's James Bond vs the Bond Villains. Especially in movies vs TV.


                                All the things you're talking about -- I hope you saw The Wire -- because it's exactly about the good guys and bad guys all have their own codes and it's not 100% who is in the right. Some amazing things in that show. And with what is going on in 2020, even more timely than ever. David Simon is great.


                                Sundown -- I think you need to watch some cartoons and enjoy some fun again! Don't only watch the dark stuff!

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