Actual Storytelling In A High Concept Film

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  • Actual Storytelling In A High Concept Film

    The QT quote in my sig got me thinking. There are alot of situation movies out there esp during the summer season. More concept and bells and whistles than actual story. Is there a fear among execs, studios, writers, etc, that if a story were really told in a film like say, Transformers 4, the audience would get bored? Do you take this into consideration when writing something hi-concept.
    "There is no greater agony than bearing an untold story inside you."
    -Maya Angelou

  • #2
    Re: Actual Storytelling In A High Concept Film

    I remember reading that somewhere. It's an on the money observation.

    SPEED is a film that delivers, but it's all concept and for that reason (and the fact that Keanu can't act) I've only seen it once and was done with it. Concept gets me excited. Story makes me care. It forces me to make an emotional investment.

    The reason TOOTSIE will always overshadow MRS DOUBTFIRE is because not only did the former widen the parameters of its premise, it also told a damn good story. The best genre movies that stay in our mind are concept and story.
    "I ask every producer I meet if they need TV specs they say yeah. They all want a 40 inch display that's 1080p and 120Hz. So, I quit my job at the West Hollywood Best Buy."
    - Screenwriting Friend

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    • #3
      Re: Actual Storytelling In A High Concept Film

      I like to believe that every creative person involved in a film is trying their best to make it a great story -- they just may be very very mistaken on what that is though.

      Do you think Michael Bay said, let's make sure Transformers 2 sucked storywise? No way. But that's what happened. I think The Rock and Armageddon both were well written and had good stories. Still a Michael Bay movie.

      So in short -- there is no fear and no matter what you write, if you don't think it's the best story it could be -- then what the hell are you doing?

      It's always story is king, no matter the question. Unless the question is, who started for the red sox in game 7 of the 1986 world series? Then the answer is Bruce Hurst.

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      • #4
        Re: Actual Storytelling In A High Concept Film

        Originally posted by Bono View Post
        Do you think Michael Bay said, let's make sure Transformers 2 sucked storywise? No way. But that's what happened.
        But that's the thing. I don't think they were thinking "story" to begin with. Obviosuly Bay wouldn't say let's make sure this sucks storywise, but he would say, "forget that scene and put an action sequence here".
        "There is no greater agony than bearing an untold story inside you."
        -Maya Angelou

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        • #5
          Re: Actual Storytelling In A High Concept Film

          High concept just means a good imagination - and that's a basic for being a fiction writer, isn't it? A good story well told - starts with that good story.

          The thing about the TRANSFORMERS movies is that Bay literally goes out and films a bunch of action scenes and lets the writers figure out the story stuff. Now, it is possible to take a bunch of footage and turn it into a story, but not easy and I'm not sure everyone has the skills.

          But if you look at the BOURNE movies or the first two SPIDER-MAN movies or IRON MAN or those new BATMAN films, they have actual stories (as do many others). I think the real problem is that some writers do not develop the skills to write a big summer entertainment film - and so Ang Lee gets a chance to make a HULK movie and it just sucks big time. Instead of being an interesting super-hero movie, it just does not work.

          All roads lead to Rome. Let's say you write some interesting quirky drama that wins a contest and everybody loves... what are the available assignments? Big entertainment films. Read Tao's posts - those small star-driven dramas are just not being made anymore. Your best case scenario is probably adapting a genre novel. It's all leading to that big entertainment script. You can end up there or start out there.

          I think the big problem with storytelling in high concept films isn't the story telling part, it's the inability to write the high concept part. You end up with a bunch of crap-action that has nothing to do with the story because the writer doesn't know how to create story-related spectacle scenes. Many of those crap-blockbusters have big name writers scripting them (or doing the uncredited production rewrites) - so it's not for lack of Oscar nominees involved that the films suck. It's that the Oscar nominees may not have the skills required... or there are idiots in charge.

          - Bill
          Free Script Tips:
          http://www.scriptsecrets.net

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          • #6
            Re: Actual Storytelling In A High Concept Film

            Originally posted by Bono View Post

            It's always story is king, no matter the question.
            I disagree... And here is why.

            I have read some inside scripts by pros and those by first time writers that were optioned, or sold... And it was mostly based on the concept more than the actual story.

            In the case of the first timers, it was optioned for a rewrite by a more experienced writer to flesh out the concept more. Note, I said concept, not story, too.

            I know this is an age old debate, but from my own experience, I am going to side with Concept is King, Story is second.

            I believe this is the case because if you have a high concept, the theory is you can build a story around it instead of vice versa. This echoes what Bill said, about Michael Bay choreographing the action sequences for the first Transformers first and then having Kurtzman & Orci write a story to string those action scenes together. It didn't help the 2007 writers strike struck during this development period and was used as a big "excuse" to go this route, either.

            Another example is what Bob Towne (Chinatown) and John Woo did on "MI:2". They choreographed all the balletic John Woo action sequences first and then had Town write a story that supported all of those sequences.

            So, the point is this is not an unheard of practice and it happens more often than most people think.

            The resulting movies, of course, is where one can argue this method works, or does not.

            I think with Woo, it was because he was John Woo -- "The Steven Spielberg of Action" -- And it is the same with Michael Bay. "No one does big action better than Michael Bay" even if this statement is false, or exaggerated.

            However, you also have to consider the flip side:

            -The Matrix (original)

            -Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan

            -Die Hard

            -Star Wars (OT)

            -The Terminator Series (sans Salvation)

            -The Road Warrior

            For every "mindless" action movie there are some really good ones where the story stands out amidst the explosions, gun fire and car chases. These are the SMART ACTION MOVIES that Hollywood just does not make anymore because the new Hollywood is under a corporate mandate that caters to 18-25-year old males, specifically.

            According to them (the parent corporations) this demographic needs everything "dumbed down", or spoon-fed to them... Which is an insult to 18-25-year olds, let alone the rest of the movie going public, too.

            But it is what it is and it isn't going to change any time soon, unfortunately.
            Positive outcomes. Only.

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            • #7
              Re: Actual Storytelling In A High Concept Film

              But if concept were king thousands more scripts would sell. A producer's requesting your script would mean an instant sale. If concept were king, films like THE READER and DOUBT and HOWARD'S END would never get made. JAWS and P.O.T.C and TOY STORY would be made differently if concept were king.

              You have to execute, and a good concept does not require execution, just imagination. A story does require execution. Jay Simpson (a former DDer) sold ARMORED on concept and story. The finished product bastardized the story element and left us with a mini-me version of PANIC ROOM. They took out story and left concept, but the story and concept sold. You can't write a 90-120 page premise.
              "I ask every producer I meet if they need TV specs they say yeah. They all want a 40 inch display that's 1080p and 120Hz. So, I quit my job at the West Hollywood Best Buy."
              - Screenwriting Friend

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Actual Storytelling In A High Concept Film

                Story gets a lot of lip service from movie makers, but when it comes right down to it, it will be sacrificed in favor of something else: Budget, release date, satisfying a big star or director's ego, locations etc...

                We'd like to THINK story is king, but the reality is, it isn't. Just look at the movies.

                A lot of movies go into production without a finished script. This tells me something other than story is coming first.

                "Trust your stuff." -- Dave Righetti, Pitching Coach

                ( Formerly "stvnlra" )

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                • #9
                  Re: Actual Storytelling In A High Concept Film

                  I think you have to write as if concept and story were neck and neck because they are. Concept is king by itself in sketch comedy, video game creation, or sitcom writing like Seinfeld, but not in screenwriting.

                  It may seem that way from all the crap we see, but it's not. There'd be no such thing as developmental hell if concept were king.

                  MISSION IMPOSSIBLE II is a sequel with a brand name and brand name scribes locked in. The first film did well, so they can do the "build around sequences" approach. I think it's different with an original spec by a new writer.

                  I wish someone could name a spec script that sold with concept being more important than story.
                  "There is no greater agony than bearing an untold story inside you."
                  -Maya Angelou

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                  • #10
                    Re: Actual Storytelling In A High Concept Film

                    Concept IS story.

                    Starting out with a great concept/story doesn't mean it will be executed to everyone's tastes, but that's another issue.

                    I have two friends that had a fairly shocking incident involving a red convertible, a golf course, and a pond. Conceptually, what happened is a winner. Trust me.

                    When one friend tells the story, however, it's HILARIOUS. It kills me every time I hear it.

                    When the other tells it, it's only "good". It's not quite as funny.

                    They're both starting out with the same winner of a concept. One simply executes it better.

                    Now the guy who tells the story great also tells a story involving an old man and loose pants.

                    He tells that story with the same amount of flair and charisma as he tells the pond story, but it's not anywhere near as entertaining. In fact, it's kinda lame.

                    What's the difference?

                    Conceptually, the car/pond is money. The guy and his pants is lame.

                    One can wreck a great concept, and still get something entertaining out of it. But it's really hard to polish a turd concept.
                    Last edited by prescribe22; 01-12-2010, 08:28 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Actual Storytelling In A High Concept Film

                      Originally posted by stvnlra View Post
                      Story gets a lot of lip service from movie makers, but when it comes right down to it, it will be sacrificed in favor of something else: Budget, release date, satisfying a big star or director's ego, locations etc...

                      We'd like to THINK story is king, but the reality is, it isn't. Just look at the movies.

                      A lot of movies go into production without a finished script. This tells me something other than story is coming first.

                      Well I guess there will have to be a new word added to the Hollywood dictionary to define a concept that's strong enough for studios to invest 100 mill+ without there being much of an actual story. I vote "ceptory".
                      "There is no greater agony than bearing an untold story inside you."
                      -Maya Angelou

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Actual Storytelling In A High Concept Film

                        Anyone who takes story advice from Quentin Tarantino is dumber than I could imagine.

                        If anybody is guilty of putting situations to the screen in lieu of story, it's Quentin Tarantino.

                        The man's insanity is deeper than I anticipated. I need time to process the absolute hilarity of what I just read...

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                        • #13
                          Re: Actual Storytelling In A High Concept Film

                          If anybody is guilty of putting situations to the screen in lieu of story, it's Quentin Tarantino.
                          I've got to say, I agree with Biohazard here. To me, QT is a master at creating soundbites that appear to sum up the industry as a whole, but upon reflection seem merely self-serving.

                          Having said that, he's not always wrong and probably close to the mark on this one.

                          concept gets me in the theater, story makes me love what i've just seen.
                          I also have to agree with Asjah here.

                          We'd like to THINK story is king, but the reality is, it isn't. Just look at the movies.

                          A lot of movies go into production without a finished script. This tells me something other than story is coming first.
                          And I absolutley agree with Stvnlra.

                          And here's why (albeit in a simplistic form):

                          The studio system doesn't make films ...

                          ... it makes money. And it makes money for its shareholders. Like it or not, that's its sole purpose. (If it didn't make money, they'd shut it down.)

                          And it makes this money by exploiting Intellectual Property Rights, i.e. films, DVDs, games, graphic novels, TV shows, radio, toys, merchandising, tie-ins, spin-offs ... the list goes on. The studio system is about creating and exploiting BRANDS.

                          Notice films are just one aspect.

                          That's why overall the studios don't really care if a film has a story or not, they just need to know that people are going to buy whatever they're selling.

                          Filmmakers care about the story, but on the whole studios don't. A good story is probably just a bonus!

                          And to compound the situation, there is one thing they absolutely do care about, Box Office.

                          Year on year (with a couple of exceptions), the Box Office figures have been climbing. Each studio has a running sweepstakes on who's going to reach $1 billion BO first.

                          That's all the studio bosses care about. Because if their profits for this year don't exceed last year's figures, they're out of a job.

                          At the end of the day, the studios aren't filmmakers, they're distributors (salesmen) and they've got their quota to meet.

                          So if they see a film CONCEPT that is an opportunity to create a summer blockbuster/tent-pole/'whatever they want to call it' that will drive the sales of all their other ancillary merchandising, then they're going to explore that opportunity.

                          I was talking to a VP at Twentieth Century Fox a few years back and he told me that most (not all) movies that are theatrically released are done so to create marketing awareness for all the other income streams. The Box Office my recoup the film's investment, but it's the DVD sales and all the other products that generate the profit for the studio.

                          So going back to QT's quote:

                          "Storytelling has become a lost art. There is no storytelling, there’s just situations. Very rarely are you told a story.”
                          I still think it's very self-serving (because he has no excuse - he can make whatever he wants), but at the same time, he may well be onto something.

                          All the best,

                          Mat.
                          Last edited by Mad Mat; 01-15-2010, 06:12 AM.
                          I'm a product of everything I've ever experienced ... I need to get out more!

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                          • #14
                            Re: Actual Storytelling In A High Concept Film

                            Mat:

                            It's really sad big studios view movies as just 90-120 minute commercials.

                            I know this is a reality of the biz, but when you say you talked to an actual "Power That Be" who works at the top end of all this... It makes me even more disheartened.

                            It's not that I begrudge anyone their fair share in our capitalist society. This is why I want to get into this business, too: To get paid to do what I love.

                            However, the corporations have perverted this basic principle into something devoid of any real passion. Again, I know this isn't new and the eternal struggle between art & commerce has been going on for centuries... But I think, now, in the new millennium, it has become almost absurd if in fact studios view movies as giant infomercials and loss leaders and not as the art that goes into them.
                            Positive outcomes. Only.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Actual Storytelling In A High Concept Film

                              I hear you, dude. I hear you.

                              C'est la vie!

                              The biggest part of getting a script sold is selling it.

                              Sounds stupid, but true.

                              Once you know what a buyer wants and what they intend to achieve with whatever they are about to buy, that makes the whole process of selling a little bit easier.

                              Selling is about solving a problem that someone else has.

                              Mat.
                              I'm a product of everything I've ever experienced ... I need to get out more!

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