Central Dramatic Argument

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  • #91
    Re: Central Dramatic Argument

    Originally posted by Recreant View Post
    Just to clarify things... the main theme or "CDA" for Book of Eli is the power of faith and how that power can be turned to either positive or destructive ends depending on how we choose to employ it.
    Is that what you interpreted from seeing the movie or is that what the author told you?

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    • #92
      Re: Central Dramatic Argument

      Originally posted by jonpiper View Post
      Is that what you interpreted from seeing the movie or is that what the author told you?
      It's what Whitta said on this forum a while back. Not sure if it actually fits this CDA stuff as there's no argument in that theme.

      Starting to realize I shouldn't post after 3am.

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      • #93
        Re: Central Dramatic Argument

        Thanks for the insight. It's given me some things to think about.
        Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue

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        • #94
          Re: Central Dramatic Argument

          Originally posted by jonpiper View Post

          By the way, I think the CDA [for Book of Eli] that guided the writer was something like, "can any obstacle cause a man or woman to loose faith in god?" The obstacles became seemingly impossible to overcome and the protag never lost faith, so as far as the story is concerned the answer is no. But to enjoy the story/movie I don't need to know what CDA the writer had in mind.

          Originally posted by Recreant View Post
          Just to clarify things... the main theme or "CDA" for Book of Eli is the power of faith and how that power can be turned to either positive or destructive ends depending on how we choose to employ it.
          Originally posted by Recreant View Post
          It's what Whitta said on this forum a while back. Not sure if it actually fits this CDA stuff as there's no argument in that theme.

          Starting to realize I shouldn't post after 3am.
          I think my CDA is better than Whitta's even if Whitta wrote the script.
          I get very confident after 3am.

          But seriously this shows that finding the CDA after reading a script or seeing the movie isn't important. Using a CDA of your choice to write your script is important.
          Even Craig Mazin, in his great post (no I'm not kissing ass) interprets a different CDA for Book of Eli. Perhaps this proves that after the fact, a lot of different CDA's will fit the same story.
          Last edited by jonpiper; 01-23-2012, 12:41 AM.

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          • #95
            Re: Central Dramatic Argument

            Originally posted by Recreant View Post
            It's what Whitta said on this forum a while back. Not sure if it actually fits this CDA stuff as there's no argument in that theme.

            Starting to realize I shouldn't post after 3am.
            Of course there's an argument in that theme. It IS an argument.

            Look what you posted.

            Just to clarify things... the main theme or "CDA" for Book of Eli is the power of faith and how that power can be turned to either positive or destructive ends depending on how we choose to employ it.
            Let me just trim the words extraneous to the argument part.

            "The power of faith can be turned to either positive or destructive ends depending on how we choose to employ it."

            That's an assertion. It's an argument. It's a direct refutation of this different CDA:

            "The power of faith is an absolute good."

            or

            "The power of faith is greater than man's own free will."

            or

            "The power of faith is overrated bunk."


            No, the theme you reprinted here is most definitely an argument. It's practically textbook.

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            • #96
              Re: Central Dramatic Argument

              Yeah, total brainfart.

              I'm just glad my employers can't read my posts.

              Comment


              • #97
                Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                Or take "Unforgiven." There, it's "is it ever acceptable to kill a man?" Look how many of the characters talk about how the job is a good, moral job because the rapists "had it coming." And yet, a lot of characters turn away from killing, even though they feel it's justified. And the only villain who's killed by the side of "good," the sheriff, is the one who didn't kill anyone. So is that acceptable? And the sheriff is killed for it, which seems just, but then the town is left ruined by that justice.

                Here's a bit in the movie that blows my mind:

                Eastwood starts off the movie telling a story about killing a man who "didn't do anything to deserve to get shot, at least nothin' I could remember when I sobered up." At this point, he clearly believe that sometimes it's acceptable to kill a man who deserves it. And that he was wicked for killing men who didn't deserve it.

                The, after he shoots Hackman, Hackman says "I don't deserve this... to die like this. I was building a house."

                And Eastwood replies: "Deserves got nothin' to do with it."
                Great stuff. Everyone in Unforgiven had an opinion on who deserved to pay for what they did but Eastwood's character was proven correct because he returns to his farm and lives his life.

                I also think it's interesting that Hackman's decision (as the sheriff) to let the men go after they disfigured the woman is what set everything in motion.

                If he had arrested and punished the men for what they did to her, the women wouldn't have hired the gunmen. But Hackman didn't think the men deserved to be punished. In a sense, Hackman had to die for his own misguided opinion on who deserves what.
                Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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                • #98
                  Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                  Originally posted by christopher jon View Post
                  So, you could say that the Central Dramatic Argument is like glue. It's a greater thematic idea or question that pulls all of the characters and scenes together.
                  C.Jon, great way to look at it. However, not every reader or audience member will agree on the glue that the writer used in the finished product, but that's not important.

                  The fact that the story ties together and makes sense means that the writer had a CDA in mind. The important thing is that the writer created a CDA and used it in the writing process.

                  Originally posted by christopher jon View Post
                  Thanks for [everybody's] the insight. It's given me some things to think about.

                  I wonder if the following exercise would help us. To "determine" what the CDA of Book of Eli is, study a DVD and read the script of Book of Eli. Think of the intention of each scene. The action. The dialogue. Plot. Etc.

                  Does everything fit into what Whitta [the writer] says is his CDA. What CDA do you think the movie best fits?

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                    What CDA do you think the movie best fits?
                    Faith gives us strength?

                    What I've more or less come away with is that the theme or the CDA is the soul of a movie. Which is something all of my previous writing attempts have lacked. A movies gotta have a soul, and a little bit of funk.
                    Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue

                    Comment


                    • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                      Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                      Great stuff. Everyone in Unforgiven had an opinion on who deserved to pay for what they did but Eastwood's character was proven correct because he returns to his farm and lives his life.
                      I'm sh!t at theme, but I learned that the best way to locate it is to look at character arc.

                      I haven't seen this is in a while, but didn't Clint revert to drinking prior to his showdown with Little Bill? For Clint to defeat Little Bill, who murdered his friend, he had to revert to who he really was, to embrace his darkest, most primitive, nature. Which is shown when he reaches for the bottle and summons the killer within before the climax.

                      The movie shows his transformation from a failed hog farmer to a stone cold killer. He starts out the movie believing he's put his violent nature behind him. He learns that to survive in a world with evil, he must resort to the part of himself he tried to kill off. I'd look for theme somewhere in there.

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                      • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                        No offense to Gary, but there are better examples out there.

                        Groundhog Day, for instance.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                          Originally posted by jonpiper View Post
                          I wonder if the following exercise would help us. To "determine" what the CDA of Book of Eli is, study a DVD and read the script of Book of Eli. Think of the intention of each scene. The action. The dialogue. Plot. Etc.

                          Does everything fit into what Whitta [the writer] says is his CDA. What CDA do you think the movie best fits? What CDA do you think the movie best fits?
                          Originally posted by christopher jon View Post
                          Faith gives us strength?

                          What I've more or less come away with is that the theme or the CDA is the soul of a movie. Which is something all of my previous writing attempts have lacked. A movies gotta have a soul, and a little bit of funk.
                          And I think the story should be coheisive and and have direction.

                          I'm learning and discovering things along with you. Does everything in the script address "Faith gives us strength"? It's an interesting argument:

                          Perhaps it should be phrased: Faith in God give us the strength to withstand whatever **** trys to prevent us from acheiving a goal.

                          Yes, faith in something gives us the strength to carry on no matter what the obstacles.

                          No, faith is not enough. Faith does not give us enough strength to complete the journey. Unless we have a "worthy" goal, faith will fail us.

                          Hm, faith carried Eli to his goal. Their faith wasn't enough to allow the others to defeat Eli and take the book from him.

                          Seems like the script explored both sides of that argument.

                          That's only take on your CDA. Others may disagree.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                            To me, Unforgiven is a movie about justice. What it is. The toll of it. Is it black and white. Again, you usually don't know exactly what the writer/director was thinking in regards to theme (or even the specificity of character arc). Without a direct conversation one can only guess.

                            The story is primarily a tale of decent, right? (And maybe an analogy for alcoholism) It's not really a "hero's journey" in which the hero must rise to the occasion and arc to complete his task. William Muney has been hiding from who he really is. To me, he's built a life that feels like a state of suspended animation. But, like alcoholism, it is unsustainable. You know how in AA they say, "while you're inside the house hiding from your sickness, your alcoholism is outside doing pushups"? That's kinda what this movie was about. The black hearted demon that was inside Will Muney had never gone anywhere.

                            I can't recall if there's a tag at the end. Isn't there a scrawl that says "Muney went back to his old life, blahblahblah"? Let's say there is. And let's say my take on the story's subtext is as acceptable as anyone else's. At that point maybe you have a convergence of this mythical character journey and theme. Maybe at the end, what is being stated is that in this tale, for justice to be served, the executor had to be the devil. Maybe the film poses that sometimes justice is as ugly as the crime.

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                            • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                              Sorry for I'm about to suck all the air out of the room.

                              From the Writers Store site:

                              "Step by step, Inside Story: The Power of the Transformational Arc guides you through an extraordinary new process that helps identify your thematic intention - what your story is really about - and teaches you how to turn that intention into the driving force behind all your creative choices. The result is a profound relationship between the movement of the plot and the internal development of character, which is the foundation for the transformational arc. The transformational arc is the deeper line of structure found inside the story. Knowing how to work with the arc enhances your ability to:
                              -Express your unique point of view
                              -Give meaning and urgency to the line of action
                              -Infuse your characters with richness, subtlety, and surprise
                              -Develop a powerful emotional undercurrent
                              -Make your stories stand out and get attention
                              A strong transformational arc is the single most important element that makes the difference between a good screenplay and a great one."

                              So the CDA is: Are all guru books completely useless?
                              "I am the story itself; its source, its voice, its music."
                              - Clive Barker, Galilee

                              Comment


                              • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                                How does all this relate to Voice?

                                Can a screenwriter write a successful convincing story and not agree with how the CDA is resolved?
                                "I am the story itself; its source, its voice, its music."
                                - Clive Barker, Galilee

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